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Scuba Forum / General / November 2007Nitrox cert update
After doing a bit more research it looks like "most" of the Nitrox courses being offered "online" must be completed with hands-on use of an analyzer at the dive shop offering the course. So, yes you can take the course online. No, you will not get a certification card until you complete the course at their dive shop. So basically you get all the bookwork and testing out of the way at home, then you complete the course hands on. Few offer actual Nitrox dives to complete the course. May as well do it at the LDS. Sheldon >After doing a bit more research it looks like "most" of the Nitrox courses >being offered "online" must be completed with hands-on use of an analyzer at [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >then you complete the course hands on. Few offer actual Nitrox dives to >complete the course. PADI being one of them. >May as well do it at the LDS. SDI then? >Sheldon ____________________________________________ Regards, Arnold >>After doing a bit more research it looks like "most" of the Nitrox courses >>being offered "online" must be completed with hands-on use of an analyzer [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Arnold I think it's TDI, although I realize they are pretty much one in the same. >"mag3" <zmpmag3-plongee@yahoo.com> wrote in message >> SDI then? > >I think it's TDI, although I realize they are pretty much one in the same. Yes, Nitrox is on the TDI side. And you've made the right decision. ____________________________________________ Regards, Arnold "Sheldon" <sheldon@XXXXXXXXsopris.net> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: : Few offer actual Nitrox dives to :complete the course. The correct sentence is, "Few make you actually dive to complete the course, thank goodness.". Dan Bracuk Never use a big word when a diminutive one will do. > "Sheldon" <sheldon@XXXXXXXXsopris.net> pounded away at his keyboard > resulting in: [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Dan Bracuk Thanks for the grammar lesson. But, being a novice, I'd take advantage of any chance to dive with an instructor, even though it's a bit stupid in this particular course. "Sheldon" <sheldon@XXXXXXXXsopris.net> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: :Thanks for the grammar lesson. But, being a novice, I'd take advantage of :any chance to dive with an instructor, even though it's a bit stupid in this :particular course. There are many places in the tropics where instructors are dive guides. You can dive with one without having to take a course. Dan Bracuk Never use a big word when a diminutive one will do. > "Sheldon" <sheldon@XXXXXXXXsopris.net> pounded away at his keyboard > resulting in: [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Dan Bracuk Taking the Nitrox course was for my own education and knowledge, not necessarily to get a dive in. When I get to the tropics I just want to dive and have fun, not necessarily take any courses. However, being with a guide or instructor would be nice, and I know I can do that if I want. > I'd take advantage of any chance to dive with an instructor, even though > it's a bit stupid in this particular course. When I did it the course included two tanks of Nitrox but the dives were on your own. The analysis of the gas was supervised and the rest was up to you. >> I'd take advantage of any chance to dive with an instructor, even though >> it's a bit stupid in this particular course. > > When I did it the course included two tanks of Nitrox but the dives were > on your own. The analysis of the gas was supervised and the rest was up > to you. Ditto here. It seems learning how to analyze the gas, hands-on, is important for certification. Actually diving with Nitrox is secondary. >> I'd take advantage of any chance to dive with an instructor, even though >> it's a bit stupid in this particular course. > > When I did it the course included two tanks of Nitrox but the dives were > on your own. The analysis of the gas was supervised and the rest was up > to you. No, Kennybenny, you're wrong. It was 4 tanks and 4 dives. > After doing a bit more research it looks like "most" of the Nitrox courses being > offered "online" must be completed with hands-on use of an analyzer at the dive [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Sheldon Hello Sheldon, I completed the final exam today and am due to receive the certificate in 7-10 days. Most of the complexity and time in the course is spent on the dive tables: air, nitrox 1 and 2, which I'll probably never use, but it's still worthwhile to know how to use them. One nice thing about the course is all the modules can be saved on the computer for reference without taking shelf and paper space. They recommend having your own gas analyzer, but I'll hold off on that. Adam >> After doing a bit more research it looks like "most" of the Nitrox >> courses being offered "online" must be completed with hands-on use of an [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > Adam Did you do yours strictly on the Net or through a dive shop or school? Also, I was told that if you make a big enough stink most fill stations will let you borrow an analyzer to use there before you take the tank away. If you have to leave the tank there, or store it on a boat, make sure to mark it with the percentage and your name -- but you probably already knew that. >>> After doing a bit more research it looks like "most" of the Nitrox courses being >>> offered "online" must be completed with hands-on use of an analyzer at the dive [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > there, or store it on a boat, make sure to mark it with the percentage and your > name -- but you probably already knew that. I did the course strictly online at my own pace. The website is the one you posted: http://www.onlinenitroxlessons.com/ I don't plan to buy my own nitrox tank at this time nor in the near future. As far as using the oxygen analyzer there is not much to it. You calibrate it to air and run the gas through it. I use similar ones at work in my anesthesia practice. My guess it that the shops have them as they are quite expensive, running around $300, and I doubt most people have their own. Adam > I don't plan to buy my own nitrox tank at this time nor in the near future. As far as > using the oxygen analyzer there is not much to it. You calibrate it to air and run > the gas through it. I use similar ones at work in my anesthesia practice. So, you've got a source for xenon? Cool... Beats argon in the mix for a really good narc... <evil-grin>  Signature"If Barbie is so popular, why do you have to buy her friends?" >>>> After doing a bit more research it looks like "most" of the Nitrox >>>> courses being offered "online" must be completed with hands-on use of [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] >> will let you borrow an analyzer to use there before you take the tank >> away. If you make a stink? Any -decent- dive shop will -require- you to use their analyzer AND log in, before they allow you to leave. Olympus in Morehead City does it for you, while you watch, and makes you sign off. There was one place in Panama City Beach that told divers it wasn't necessary- I cussed them and walked out. >> If you have to leave the tank there, or store it on a boat, make sure to >> mark it with the percentage and your name -- but you probably already [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > are quite expensive, running around $300, and I doubt most people have > their own. I don't know about "most people", but, I bet most -here- have their own. > Adam > As far as using the oxygen analyzer there is not much to it. You calibrate > it to air and run the gas through it. Do some research on the effect of humidity on your initial calibration. > My guess it that the shops have them as they are quite expensive, running > around $300, and I doubt most people have their own. I suspect it largely depends on how much people dive, what's available when and where they dive, and how close they push their no deco and PPO2 limits. I have one of my own. I'm on my third sensor. Lee >> As far as using the oxygen analyzer there is not much to it. You calibrate it to >> air and run the gas through it. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Lee Hello Lee, Can I ask you which analyzer you recommend? The two that I was considering are: 1. The MaxO2 by DiveRite http://www.leisurepro.com/Prod/AQUNMHA.html?Search=op%3ddtSearch%26Term%3doxygen %2banalyzer%26SearchFlag%3dall%26AdvSrchSortField%3dRelevance%26DescSort%3d0%26H it%3d1 and the Amoxtec: http://www.leisurepro.com/Prod/AQUNAOA.html?Search=op%3ddtSearch%26Term%3danalyz er%26SearchFlag%3dall%26AdvSrchSortField%3dRelevance%26DescSort%3d0%26Hit%3d1 Some of them attach to the tank and some to the inflator hose of the BC. Adam > Can I ask you which analyzer you recommend? The two that I was considering > are: [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Some of them attach to the tank and some to the inflator hose of the BC. I don't recommend anything in particular. My analyzer is an Analyox Mini O2 DII. I have no complaints. I have a flow restrictor barb (Brownies Southport) and hose that allows me to hook it up to my low pressure inflator hose for enhanced reliability and ease of use. That works well, but it takes a while unless I purge the regulator of air before testing. I usually forget. I carry it in an appropriate sized drybox, seated in foam to cushion it against shocks. I keep a solar powered calculator in the same box for MOD, EAD and END calculations. Lee >> Can I ask you which analyzer you recommend? The two that I was considering are: >> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Lee In that case the kind that connects directly to the tank is a better system as you have less dead space to clear, and the reading should stabilize faster. Adam >> I don't recommend anything in particular. My analyzer is an Analyox Mini >> O2 DII. I have no complaints. I have a flow restrictor barb (Brownies [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> foam to cushion it against shocks. I keep a solar powered calculator in >> the same box for MOD, EAD and END calculations. > In that case the kind that connects directly to the tank is a better > system as you have less dead space to clear, and the reading should > stabilize faster. There are advantages and disadvantages to everything. Hooking the analyzer to the tank is fine, but it requires a fitting, actually, two, one for DIN and one for Yoke. To do the same job, it also needs a flow restrictor. To use it, the regulator has to be off the tank. Finally, it takes a lot more room than my barb and hose. It does, however, stabilize a bit quicker . . . unless I remember to purge my regulator first. I have not problem with analyzers that attach to the tank. I've had a couple. I switched to the current model because it was easy to hook up and, thanks the flow restrictor, gives consistent results. It's nearly idiot proof. Lee > >> I don't recommend anything in particular. My analyzer is an Analyox Mini > >> O2 DII. I have no complaints. I have a flow restrictor barb (Brownies [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > thanks the flow restrictor, gives consistent results. It's nearly idiot > proof. The best is to check it before you dive it by using an inflator hose connection. BC or dry suit. Lower pressure (whatever the IP of your reg is) and you have fresh info from your rig before you flop. > Can I ask you which analyzer you recommend? The two that I was considering are: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Some of them attach to the tank and some to the inflator hose of the BC. I've had trouble with the MaxO2 products. The sensors are slow and seem to have frequent issues. The dive shop I was associated with in SC carried them and dropped the line because of problems. Between these two, the Analox is the easy choice for me. I would also look at the Oxycheq Expeditions http://www.oxycheq.com/Oxycheq/Analyzers/Analyzers.html The Oxycheqs use Teledyne sensors, which I have found the hard way to be the fastest and most reliable. If you are handy and want to learn a little about analyzers, the Oxycheq El Cheapo kit will get you a simple but decent analyzer. I haven't used his kits, but I've built several analyzers using similar components. The plans can be found in the Oxygen Hacker's Handbook by Vance Harlow (highly recommended reading). >> Can I ask you which analyzer you recommend? The two that I was considering are: >> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > plans can be found in the Oxygen Hacker's Handbook by Vance Harlow > (highly recommended reading). Thanks for the info. I'm also looking at the Oxycheq Expedition and there is lower priced TDL version sold on: http://www.techdivinglimited.com/ It appears to be the same as the Expedition from what I can see. Have you heard anything about the TDL one? Also someone on scubaforums mentioned that the Oxycheq (and by reference the TDL analyzer) and the Analox use the same sensor, but the Oxycheq is priced $50 less? Do you have any knowledge of this? Adam > Also someone on scubaforums mentioned that the Oxycheq (and by reference > the TDL analyzer) and the Analox use the same sensor, but the Oxycheq is > priced $50 less? Do you have any knowledge of this? Some of us know Patrick Duffy (Oxycheq) personally and trust his products. Lee >> Also someone on scubaforums mentioned that the Oxycheq (and by >> reference the TDL analyzer) and the Analox use the same sensor, but [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Some of us know Patrick Duffy (Oxycheq) personally and trust his > products. I've got an "El Cheapo" ... My only comment is that the instructions about de-soldering the resistor on the meter could have been a bit clearer. But now that it's set up it works just fine. -Don > It appears to be the same as the Expedition from what I can see. Have you heard > anything about the TDL one? > > Also someone on scubaforums mentioned that the Oxycheq (and by reference the TDL > analyzer) and the Analox use the same sensor, but the Oxycheq is priced $50 less? Do > you have any knowledge of this? I don't know anything about the TDL analyzer. AFAIK, the Analox and Oxycheq do not use the same sensor. > Thanks for the info. I'm also looking at the Oxycheq Expedition and there is lower > priced TDL version sold on: [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > analyzer) and the Analox use the same sensor, but the Oxycheq is priced $50 less? Do > you have any knowledge of this? TDL is Joel Silverstein, and the analyzers he sells are a direct rip-off of Patrick's analyzers. Silverstein is a simple thief, a liar and an egomaniac of galactic proportion. Doing business with TDL is doing business with one the biggest lowlife a.sholes in SCUBA. Ping me offline and I will get you a great deal on an OxyCheq analyzer. >>>> After doing a bit more research it looks like "most" of the Nitrox >>>> courses being offered "online" must be completed with hands-on use of [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > > Adam Thanks for the info. I just signed up for the course today. I figure I have nothing to lose, except $50, and worse case scenerio if a place won't accept my card I'll dive air. Especially since I'm mostly taking this course for my own knowledge and I'm not sure if I'll ever dive Nitrox anytime soon. As I stated before, this isn't exactly like getting your C-card. It's all theory and doesn't make your diving any better or worse. It just allows more bottom time and may be a safer gas with a bigger margin of safety, when used correctly. "Sheldon" <sheldon@XXXXXXXXsopris.net> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: :It just allows more bottom time and may be a safer gas with a bigger margin :of safety, when used correctly. It doesn't always allow more bottom time. I dive air only and it is rare that I run out of bottom time before I either run out of air or reach the time limit for the dive. Dan Bracuk Never use a big word when a diminutive one will do. > It doesn't always allow more bottom time. I dive air only and it is > rare that I run out of bottom time before I either run out of air or > reach the time limit for the dive. Yeah, when you're only diving to depths like in Looe Key with it's 5+ hour NDL time, nitrox isn't going to make much of a difference from a practical standpoint... Not too many of us around here do 5+ hour dives... >> It doesn't always allow more bottom time. I dive air only and it is >> rare that I run out of bottom time before I either run out of air or >> reach the time limit for the dive. > Yeah, when you're only diving to depths like in Looe Key with it's 5+ > hour NDL time, nitrox isn't going to make much of a difference from a > practical standpoint... Not too many of us around here do 5+ hour > dives... A few do. One, you know who, probably does single dives in that range occasionally. At least one, a different you know who, sometimes does multiple dives in a single day that add up to that much time and more. Lee > :It just allows more bottom time and may be a safer gas with a bigger > margin [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > rare that I run out of bottom time before I either run out of air or > reach the time limit for the dive. It allows more bottom time. You just don't dive deep enough, long enough, often enough to take advantage of the additional time 8^). Lee > Thanks for the info. I just signed up for the course today. I figure I > have nothing to lose, except $50, and worse case scenerio if a place won't [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > It just allows more bottom time and may be a safer gas with a bigger > margin of safety, when used correctly. More than -anyone- needs to know about Nitrox: http://www.gasdiving.co.uk/pages/misc/Nitrox.htm Except maybe how to analyze, a simple drill. >>>>> After doing a bit more research it looks like "most" of the Nitrox >>>>> courses being offered "online" must be completed with hands-on use of [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] > It just allows more bottom time and may be a safer gas with a bigger > margin of safety, when used correctly. I just finished the first module of the Internet course. It seems to be a good course, so far, and you do have to think to answer those questions. They won't pass you without 100% all the way through. >>>>>> After doing a bit more research it looks like "most" of the Nitrox courses >>>>>> being offered "online" must be completed with hands-on use of an analyzer at [quoted text clipped - 52 lines] > course, so far, and you do have to think to answer those questions. They won't pass > you without 100% all the way through. Yes, I think it's fine as well. I think there are a few minor mistakes in the text dealing with Nitrox tables. You'll find them as you work through it. To get the certificate there's some paperwork at the end. You need to send a copy of your scuba certificate, a passport photo, and notarized signature. There are some waiver forms as well to sign. In this course the depth limits for the Nitrox 1 and Nitox 2 are 100 and 80 ft respectively, which is more conservative than the 1.4 ATM O2. As far as oxygen analyzer I'm planning to get the Analox O2EIIT Nitrox Analyser. Adam >> I just finished the first module of the Internet course. It seems to be >> a good course, so far, and you do have to think to answer those >> questions. They won't pass you without 100% all the way through. > Yes, I think it's fine as well. I think there are a few minor mistakes in > the text dealing with Nitrox tables. You'll find them as you work through > it. Hard to tell until you compare your results to the knowledge of others. > To get the certificate there's some paperwork at the end. You need to send > a copy of your scuba certificate, a passport photo, and notarized > signature. There are some waiver forms as well to sign. Is there a session on using an analyzer or is that an independent study part of the course too? In my personal opinion, analyzer use was one of the more important parts of the course. Depending on the make, model and method of use, getting consistent results can be a bit more of an art than a skill. > In this course the depth limits for the Nitrox 1 and Nitox 2 are 100 and > 80 ft respectively, which is more conservative than the 1.4 > ATM O2. It certainly is more conservative. Both are less than 1.3 ata. Do they teach you to calculate (1-3 use the same formula): 1. Optimum mix for a given depth and PPO2? 2. MOD for a given mix and PPO2? 3. PPO2 for a given depth and mix? 4. EAD, END and how to use air tables or an air computer for a nitrox dive? If not, maybe you should contact Star for some post graduate work. You can dive nitrox with no more information that what MOD means and what the MOD is for Nitrox I and II, but you're not going to get the full benefit from it without knowing a bit more than that. Lee >>> I just finished the first module of the Internet course. It seems to be a good >>> course, so far, and you do have to think to answer those questions. They won't [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > Lee The optimal mix for diving to certain depth dive is not discussed. Calculating the depth for a specific PPO2 is discussed. And the use of air tables/air computer with Nitrox is discussed as well. The also strongly recommend the use of a nitrox computer. Adam > The optimal mix for diving to certain depth dive is not discussed. Calculating the > depth for a specific PPO2 is discussed. And the use of air tables/air computer with > Nitrox is discussed as well. The also strongly recommend the use of a nitrox If you can calculate the depth for a specific PPO2, you can calculate the optimal mix for a specific depth. The formula is the same, you are just solving for mix instead of depth. Eighth grade algebra. esg > The optimal mix for diving to certain depth dive is not discussed. > Calculating the depth for a specific PPO2 is discussed. And the use of air > tables/air computer with Nitrox is discussed as well. The also strongly > recommend the use of a nitrox computer. In my personal opinion, your course shortchanged you by a bit. I suggest a bit of independent study to fill in the gaps. Lee > To get the certificate there's some paperwork at the end. You need to send a copy of > your scuba certificate, a passport photo, and notarized signature. There are some > waiver forms as well to sign. In this course the depth limits for the Nitrox 1 and > Nitox 2 are 100 and 80 ft respectively, which is more conservative than the 1.4 ATM > O2. Do I hear very loud warning bells jangling? "Nitrox 1" and "Nitrox 2" are totally obsolete measures. esg > > To get the certificate there's some paperwork at the end. You need to send a copy of > > your scuba certificate, a passport photo, and notarized signature. There are some [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Do I hear very loud warning bells jangling? "Nitrox 1" and "Nitrox 2" > are totally obsolete measures. Exactly. I've been using Nitrox 4.5 for the past year at least and I've heard they're already coming out with a Nitrox 5 in beta. >> To get the certificate there's some paperwork at the end. You need to send a copy >> of your scuba certificate, a passport photo, and notarized signature. There are [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Do I hear very loud warning bells jangling? "Nitrox 1" and "Nitrox 2" are totally > obsolete measures. It's defined in the course as 32% O2 and 36% O2 mix respectively. I think you're nitpicking here. Adam >>>To get the certificate there's some paperwork at the end. You need to send a copy >>>of your scuba certificate, a passport photo, and notarized signature. There are [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Adam Not really. For me, 40% is Banana mix, 36% is Apple mix. If ya don't believe me, I'll show you my log. But for you, a student, you'd best learn to call a 36% mix "36%" and a 34% mix "34%" and forget about Nitrox 2 and Banana mix. The guy at the fill place never heard of either one. esg >>>>>>> After doing a bit more research it looks like "most" of the Nitrox >>>>>>> courses being offered "online" must be completed with hands-on use [quoted text clipped - 72 lines] > > Adam I just completed the course. They did not ask for anything else -- yet. Funny, they never asked for my dive cert at all. Anyway, I've heard that some dive courses now include the Nitrox course. I thought the course was pretty good -- as someone else said, a lot of 8th grade algebra. But, they definitely hammer in safety first, and the fact that you are responsible for diving Nitrox, nobody else. The final exam was somewhat repetitious using the same questions from the quizzes, but you still had to get those right, so... No hands on with regards to testing mixes. No hands on anything. That would be the only thing missing. I figure I can pick that up along the way, and as I said before, this is more of an exercise for me as I don't plan on doing any Nitrox diving anytime soon. Just thought it would be a good idea to have the card in my pocket and learn about it. At the least, I now know what all the fuss is about. Sheldon > No hands on with regards to testing mixes. No hands on anything. That > would be the only thing missing. I figure I can pick that up along the way, > and as I said before, this is more of an exercise for me as I don't plan on > doing any Nitrox diving anytime soon. Just thought it would be a good idea > to have the card in my pocket and learn about it. At the least, I now know > what all the fuss is about. For your upcoming trips, you might be able to dive nitrox in Hawaii depending on the dive op, but it's real expensive (~$15/tank) and probably not worth it for the limited amount of diving. It's definitely not worth it for the shore diving which tends to be rather shallow. It's probably harder if not impossible to find in Belize depending on where you're going, unless you're diving one of the three liveaboards that ply the Belizean waters: all three (Nekton, Aggressor, Peter Hughes) offer nitrox at a set weekly price ($100-$150) and it's a good deal if you're planning on making all or most of the dives offered. When you're diving 4-5 dives a day, even if you're not reaching your NDLs on air, it's a nice safety factor to replace the air with nitrox as long as you can stay within your MOD on the "bottomless" walls. In either case, if you decide to dive nitrox in a resort setting and unless it's a really shoddy dive op providing the gas, they will assist you with analying the gas. Sometimes they'll analyze it for you in your presence because they don't want to risk you dropping the analyzer overboard or otherwise mistreating it. Even if they just stick it in your hand and tell you to analyze, they'll certainly help you if you ask - after all, they're looking out for a tip at the end of the day. So that's your hands-on experience, included in the cost of the nitrox. >> No hands on with regards to testing mixes. No hands on anything. That >> would be the only thing missing. I figure I can pick that up along the [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > of the day. So that's your hands-on experience, included in the cost > of the nitrox. Thanks for the update, and I figured as much. BTW, after I completed the final exam I thought that was it. They steered me to a site with all the paperwork. Had to provide a copy of my c-card and get a lot of papers notarized and include a photo. > It's probably harder if not impossible to find in Belize depending on > where you're going, You can get Nitrox on Ambergris Caye. unless you're diving one of the three liveaboards > that ply the Belizean waters: all three (Nekton, Aggressor, Peter > Hughes) offer nitrox at a set weekly price ($100-$150) and it's a good [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > of the day. So that's your hands-on experience, included in the cost > of the nitrox. > > It's probably harder if not impossible to find in Belize depending on > > where you're going, > > You can get Nitrox on Ambergris Caye. > > unless you're diving one of the three liveaboards Really? I checked Amigos' site and didn't see it mentioned. Who's got it? > > > It's probably harder if not impossible to find in Belize depending on > > > where you're going, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Really? I checked Amigos' site and didn't see it mentioned. Who's > got it? Most everyone that wants it. It's pumped by one for all. Used to be Protech I think. I've been diving with Amigos on air, while others were diving on Nitrox and Amigos told me they don't pump it themselves but bring it in. This was at least a year or more ago and it is possible that they pump it themselves now, but I doubt it. > Most everyone that wants it. It's pumped by one for all. Used to be > Protech I think. I forgot about them, the guy that was living at Terry & Michelle's apartment. Is he still there? > I've been diving with Amigos on air, while others were diving on Nitrox and > Amigos told me they don't pump it themselves but bring it in. This was at > least a year or more ago and it is possible that they pump it themselves > now, but I doubt it. It's a good thing, since the reefs start so deep. A few more years of global warming and they'll be at trimix depths. That's why I liked the arrangement on the Nekton Pilot: unlimited nitrox in steel 95s let you really get your money's worth. > global warming and they'll be at trimix depths. That's why I liked > the arrangement on the Nekton Pilot: unlimited nitrox in steel 95s let > you really get your money's worth. Nitrox on the Nekton does cost extra. It is included in the package at Sand Dollar on Bonaire. Had I elected to use Nitrox on the Nekton Pilot, it would have cost me about $9.25 per tank had I gotten the unlimited package which is $195 for the week. Otherwise it is $15 per tank. > > global warming and they'll be at trimix depths. That's why I liked > > the arrangement on the Nekton Pilot: unlimited nitrox in steel 95s let [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Pilot, it would have cost me about $9.25 per tank had I gotten the > unlimited package which is $195 for the week. Otherwise it is $15 per tank. I remembered it as $150 for the week. Either it went up or my memory is faulty. The Aggressors only charge $100 a week, but they just supply AL80s. At $100 a week, it's pretty much a no-brainer as I can get the price down as low as $4/tank if I do most of the dives. Bonaire seems to be the only place that has it right, as many or most dive ops either comp it or charge less than $100 for an unlimited package. We're staying at Den Laman in December and they use the same dive op as Sand Dollar with the same "free nitrox" deal. Then it's definitely a no-brainer even for people without brains! Hopefully as more and more people get certified and continue to demand nitrox, the prices will continue to drop all over the world. >>>global warming and they'll be at trimix depths. That's why I liked >>>the arrangement on the Nekton Pilot: unlimited nitrox in steel 95s let [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > supply AL80s. At $100 a week, it's pretty much a no-brainer as I can > get the price down as low as $4/tank if I do most of the dives. Here is from Nekton's website- http://www.nektoncruises.com/Diving/Nitrox.aspx Only thing I MIGHT consider doing was diving Nitrox the last day and paying the "per tank" rate. Depending on my flight schedule the next day. May give me a bit more of a margin of safety. I dove air the full week and I think I had 24+ hours from my last dive til I got on the plane, so I really wasn't concerned. > Bonaire seems to be the only place that has it right, as many or most > dive ops either comp it or charge less than $100 for an unlimited [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > more and more people get certified and continue to demand nitrox, the > prices will continue to drop all over the world. The place I stayed (Plaza Resort) on my previous trip offered Nitrox optional, although they may have changed since then. As I recall, I just dove air the entire week. > The place I stayed (Plaza Resort) on my previous trip offered Nitrox > optional, although they may have changed since then. As I recall, I just > dove air the entire week. When we stayed there for a week, they gave us the nitrox with their dive and drive package (which worked out to be a pretty good deal). >>The place I stayed (Plaza Resort) on my previous trip offered Nitrox >>optional, although they may have changed since then. As I recall, I just >>dove air the entire week. > > When we stayed there for a week, they gave us the nitrox with their dive > and drive package (which worked out to be a pretty good deal). Al, did you do strictly shore diving with them? or did you do boat dives also? When I was there we did both. Also, FWIW, I took an IC706MKII and a dipole and had a blast working DX from the boat dock. Bonaire is part of the CEPT agreement so no separarte license was needed. Nice being on the other end of the pileup for a change. :) > Al, did you do strictly shore diving with them? or did you do boat > dives also? When I was there we did both. We did boat diving too. We did boat dives in the morning and shore diving in the afternoon, night and early morning (dawn). The night and dawn dives were done from the beach at Plaza. > Also, FWIW, I took an IC706MKII and a dipole and had a blast working DX > from the boat dock. Bonaire is part of the CEPT agreement so no > separarte license was needed. Nice being on the other end of the pileup > for a change. :) That must have been a lot of fun. I need to get off my butt and take the test to get a license again. The guys in FL tell me I can read the book tonight and pass the test tomorrow. >>Al, did you do strictly shore diving with them? or did you do boat >>dives also? When I was there we did both. > > We did boat diving too. We did boat dives in the morning and shore > diving in the afternoon, night and early morning (dawn). The night and > dawn dives were done from the beach at Plaza. sounds like our itinerary, sans nitrox. >>Also, FWIW, I took an IC706MKII and a dipole and had a blast working DX >>from the boat dock. Bonaire is part of the CEPT agreement so no [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > test to get a license again. The guys in FL tell me I can read the book > tonight and pass the test tomorrow. No doubt in my mind. Chances are, if you are willing to pay for a "vanity call", you could get your old call sign back. CW test is no more. nitespark <nitespark@cox.net> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: :Here is from Nekton's website- : [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] :week and I think I had 24+ hours from my last dive til I got on the :plane, so I really wasn't concerned. It is rare that lack of available bottom time affects my diving. My Nekton Pilot Northern Bahamas trip was one of those occasions. While the dives were not that deep, the top of the reef was still 50-60 ft down, so you couldn't hang out at 20-30 and still be on the reef. Dan Bracuk Never use a big word when a diminutive one will do. Greg Mossman <mossman@qnet.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: :Bonaire seems to be the only place that has it right, as many or most :dive ops either comp it or charge less than $100 for an unlimited [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] :more and more people get certified and continue to demand nitrox, the :prices will continue to drop all over the world. They had nitrox at Sunset Divers in Curacao. I don't know if they charged extra for it or not. Dan Bracuk Never use a big word when a diminutive one will do. > Greg Mossman <moss...@qnet.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting > in: [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > They had nitrox at Sunset Divers in Curacao. I don't know if they > charged extra for it or not. Dive you dive on it? You do know that it tastes better, don't you? Greg Mossman <mossman@qnet.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: :Dive you dive on it? You do know that it tastes better, don't you? They asked if we wanted to dive air or nitrox. We said air. Pretty well every dive ended because of the 1 hour time limit. Nitrox would not have entended bottom time. Dan Bracuk Never use a big word when a diminutive one will do. > Greg Mossman <moss...@qnet.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting > in: [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > well every dive ended because of the 1 hour time limit. Nitrox would > not have entended bottom time. But it would have tasted better. > > Greg Mossman <moss...@qnet.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting > > in: [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > But it would have tasted better. What if I didn't care about taste? Would this mean I wouldn't have been bent on my second dive off of Roatan? If I'd been diving Nitrox off of Ambergris a year ago Nov. does that mean I'd not have found myself with skinbends? > > Most everyone that wants it. It's pumped by one for all. Used to be > > Protech I think. > > I forgot about them, the guy that was living at Terry & Michelle's > apartment. Is he still there? I don't know that Peter is still at Terry and Michelle's, but I do know that Peter is still in San Pedro and running/owning Protech as of 6-7 pm yesterday. > > I've been diving with Amigos on air, while others were diving on Nitrox and > > Amigos told me they don't pump it themselves but bring it in. This was at [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > the arrangement on the Nekton Pilot: unlimited nitrox in steel 95s let > you really get your money's worth. Well, we just (almost) had this discussion tonight. The safety stops off of Ambegris Caye are all well and good, but the diver is pretty much hanging mid-ocean. Whereas, almost all safety stops in Roatan are quality. > > > Most everyone that wants it. It's pumped by one for all. Used to be > > > Protech I think. [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > Ambegris Caye are all well and good, but the diver is pretty much hanging > mid-ocean. Whereas, almost all safety stops in Roatan are quality. What's wrong with mid-ocean safety stops? All our safety stops in Galapagos were mid-ocean, and we were surrounded by schools of fish, the occasional passing hammerhead, dolphins, even boobies diving into the water and staying long enough to check us out. Beats hanging on a mooring line watching bar jacks (not that there's anything wrong with bar jacks...). gc > > > > Most everyone that wants it. It's pumped by one for all. Used to be > > > > Protech I think. [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > mooring line watching bar jacks (not that there's anything wrong with > bar jacks...). Nothing wrong with a mid-ocean stop that is delivering the goods that way. > would be the only thing missing. I figure I can pick that up along the way, > and as I said before, this is more of an exercise for me as I don't plan on > doing any Nitrox diving anytime soon. Just thought it would be a good idea > to have the card in my pocket and learn about it. At the least, I now know > what all the fuss is about. How do they get the card into your hands? Does it come in the mail? How long does it take? >> would be the only thing missing. I figure I can pick that up along the > way, [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > How do they get the card into your hands? Does it come in the mail? How > long does it take? They will send it "snail mail" or overnight it if you wish. You still have to fill out a bunch of forms and get those to them along with a photo. The forms are available to you via the Net after you complete the final exam. You must get 100% on the test. They will tell you instantly what questions you missed, but not why. You do have access to an instructor via e-mail or phone. Dive table mistakes are generally stupid mistakes when you lose your way along the chart and find yourself on the wrong line. This is why they emphasize using a computer when you actually dive. I sent my notarized forms off yesterday, 10/17, certified mail, to be returned normal mail. I'll let you know when the card arrives. > this is more of an exercise for me as I don't plan on doing any Nitrox > diving anytime soon. I once said the same thing. Soon after, I was diving nitrox on every dive. Take a look at what diving 28% does to your available no deco times on a couple of 130 foot dive on the Spiegle Grove and you'll begin to understand why. Lee >> this is more of an exercise for me as I don't plan on doing any Nitrox >> diving anytime soon. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Lee However, as I've been told you have to be experienced enough to not use much air. If you use a lot of air, and that's the reason you are surfacing, Nitrox ain't going to help. Nitrox definitely sounds like a great idea, but I need more experience to determine if it's going to do me any good. Of course I could dive with a standard air computer and dive Nitrox for the safety aspect. > Of > course I could dive with a standard air computer and dive Nitrox for the > safety aspect. No you couldn't. There is no safety aspect diving nitrox on air tables. Only added cost and the chance to look cool. esg > > Of > > course I could dive with a standard air computer and dive Nitrox for the > > safety aspect. > > No you couldn't. There is no safety aspect diving nitrox on air tables. > Only added cost and the chance to look cool. This is ESG's misguided opinion based solely on lack of statistical evidence which completely ignores the reality that less nitrogen absorbed into the tissues obviously reduces the chances of incurring nitrogen-related health problems in less-than-optimal dive conditions. Unfortunately, statistics can't accurately predict everything that's going to happen so it's often better to rely on common sense instead. ESG knows well that there simply isn't enough data to draw meaningful statistical conclusions where nitrox is concerned. For instance, say you're a bit dehydrated following a bout of vomiting from seasickness or too much drinking the night before. Or say you have a rapid ascent caused by dropping a weight or a runaway inflator or other emergency. Clearly there is a threshold where if you have too much nitrogen in your system, you may get bent in either of these scenarios. Equally clearly, if there is less nitrogen in your system, you may not reach the threshold and therefore may not get bent. Nitrox could make the difference between making the next dive and sitting out the rest of the trip in a hyperbaric chamber. How much you're willing to pay for that additional security is up to you. >>> Of >>>course I could dive with a standard air computer and dive Nitrox for the [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > data to draw meaningful statistical conclusions where nitrox is > concerned. Yes, there is such data. Do some research. > For instance, say you're a bit dehydrated following a bout of vomiting > from seasickness or too much drinking the night before. Or say you [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > scenarios. Equally clearly, if there is less nitrogen in your system, > you may not reach the threshold and therefore may not get bent. For instance, say yer a bit dehydrated so ya strap on a tank of 40% and do yer bounce dive, on air tables, to 160' How much did you reduce yer risk? How much? Diving nitrox to air tables is stupid, dangerous, and costly. Dive air on air tables, that's what they were made for and that's why they call em air tables. Dive nitrox on nitrox tables, that's what they were made for and that's why they call em nitrox tables. > Nitrox could make the difference between making the next dive and > sitting out the rest of the trip in a hyperbaric chamber. How much > you're willing to pay for that additional security is up to you. And nitrox on air tables could make you dead when ya could be sitting in a chamber sipping rum. > Yes, there is such data. Do some research. No, there isn't. Or should I say, cite? > > For instance, say you're a bit dehydrated following a bout of vomiting > > from seasickness or too much drinking the night before. Or say you [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > For instance, say yer a bit dehydrated so ya strap on a tank of 40% and > do yer bounce dive, on air tables, to 160' But we're not being hyperbolic by bouncing to 160', we're just doing regular "recreational dives". You know that. How many recreational divers recreationally bounce to 160'? How many recreational nitrox divers recreationally bounce to 160'? > Diving nitrox to air tables is stupid, dangerous, and costly. It doesn't cost beans in Bonaire. It's about $4/tank on Aggressor liveaboards and well worth the safety factor. > Dive air on air tables, that's what they were made for and that's why > they call em air tables. Dive nitrox on nitrox tables, that's what they > were made for and that's why they call em nitrox tables. We all know the tables are approximations, not meant for any real person. Real people benefit from nitrox. > > Nitrox could make the difference between making the next dive and > > sitting out the rest of the trip in a hyperbaric chamber. How much > > you're willing to pay for that additional security is up to you. > > And nitrox on air tables could make you dead when ya could be sitting in > a chamber sipping rum. Not at recreational depths, but you knew that. > How many recreational divers recreationally bounce to 160'? I do... Probably a bit more than just a 'bounce' though... Not at Looe Key though... Too much digging involved... <grin> > How many recreational nitrox divers recreationally bounce to 160'? I would suspect quite a bit less unless they're using a mix that was very close to air in the O2 percentage... Signature"Just say No to sex with pro-lifers." > > How many recreational divers recreationally bounce to 160'? > > I do... Probably a bit more than just a 'bounce' though... Not at Looe > Key though... Too much digging involved... <grin> I don't do it on a regular basis, but it has come to that from time to time . . hammerheads below 170 . . you know, that sort of thing. > > How many recreational nitrox divers recreationally bounce to 160'? > > I would suspect quite a bit less unless they're using a mix that was > very close to air in the O2 percentage... And yes, there's that. I was on air everytime . I just didn't want to short change myself with the mantas. >>Yes, there is such data. Do some research. > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > How many recreational divers recreationally bounce to 160'? Few on this side of the pond. Most would do some bottom time there, say 15-20 minutes. > How many recreational nitrox divers recreationally bounce to 160'? Hopefully even fewer. Matthias > Not at recreational depths, but you knew that. "Recreational" diving has recently been redefined as 130' on nitrogen/oxygen mixtures ranging from 79/21 to 60/40, using open circuit gear. As stultifyingly as this re-definition is, it's obviously the one you've adopted, so we'll work within that. 130' is roughly 5 ATA, and a 40% mix gives a PPO2 of 2.0 That's the ratio of depth to mix that was used to set the boundaries of the new watered-down "recreational" diving. Statistically (look it up, do some research, learn something new) the risk of oxtox is 0.00 from PPO2 of zero to about 1.8; from 1.8 to 2.4 the risk curve transitions from 0.00 to 1.00, i.e. from flat to vertical, and remains at 1.00 from PPO2 2.4 to infinity. Using nitrox on air tables, i.e. increasing PPO2 using tables written for 21%, WITHIN "RECREATIONAL" DEPTHS, can expose the ignorant and inexperienced (for whom the new definition was written) to PPO2 in excess of 1.8 at which risk increases dramatically. Suggesting that a "recreational", or any other, diver can or should use tables for a gas other than the gas he is breathing is irresponsible and dangerous. Nitrox on air tables increases risk. Period. Air tables work for 21%, they do not work for nitrox and should never be used for nitrox. esg > Nitrox on air tables increases risk. Period. Certainly you'll have statistics to back up that statement? No? I didn't think so. Nitrox on air tables has saved countless lives. No one has ever died from using nitrox on air tables. Period. >>Nitrox on air tables increases risk. Period. > > Certainly you'll have statistics to back up that statement? Sure. Start with the work of Paul Bert, Lorrain-Smith, von Schrotter, Leonard Hill, and Damant & Phillips for the basics. Then move on to the practical experiments with humans done by Bornstein, aboard the HMS Tedworth in Loch Fyne, by Behnke, then by the Royal Navy in the experimental department of Siebe, Gorman (over 2,000 experiments!) under the direction of K.W. Donald. Wrap up yer research with a look at the work of the NEDU, which continues today under the direction of Lambertsen. It's all there if you want to make the effort to supplant old wives' tales with science-based fact. Even the current, very conservative, "recreational" air tables allow no decompression times of 10 minutes at 130 fsw. Hot "recreational" nitrox mix results in PPO2 of 2.0 on that air table, for 10 minutes (as any novice nitrox diver will explain to you). The likelihood of oxtox siezures in this segment of our modern "recreational" air tables using "recreational" avilable nitrox is, according to the sources cited above, pretty consistantly 0.40 to 0.60 Nitrox on air tables increases risk. > No? I didn't think so. Nitrox on air tables has saved countless > lives. No one has ever died from using nitrox on air tables. Period. And that's semantics. Plenty of people have died from the combination of "recreational" nitrox PPO2 as misinterpreted by "recreational" air profiles. This idiotic practice of using nitrox on air tables is new enough and rare enough to not have a statistically significant base yet. If the practice continues, though, we will be able to start a data base of a.sholes that killed themselves diving nitrox on air tables. Meanwhile, here's what I'll do: next time yer in SoFla, I'll supply you with a "recreational" nitrox mix, nothing special, one of the tanks sitting in my garage right now, and we'll go on a dive planned and executed exactly to "recreational" air tables. I'll give even money ($1,000 ok with you?) that you experience oxtox siezures bad enough for you to lose yer reg. Don't worry, I'll make sure that there are safety divers using either nitrox on nitrox tables or air on air tables to pull you up before you breathe too much water. You will probably survive. Deal? esg >> No? I didn't think so. Guess you blew that one, didn't you? > Nitrox on air tables has saved countless lives. I suppose you have cites to back that up? No? I didn't think so. > Meanwhile, here's what I'll do: next time yer in SoFla, I'll supply you > with a "recreational" nitrox mix, nothing special, one of the tanks [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Deal? Please say yes. > And that's semantics. Plenty of people have died from the combination of > "recreational" nitrox PPO2 as misinterpreted by "recreational" air > profiles. This idiotic practice of using nitrox on air tables is new > enough and rare enough to not have a statistically significant base yet. You concede the point. > If the practice continues, though, we will be able to start a data base > of a.sholes that killed themselves diving nitrox on air tables. Sure, but by that time we'll have established how much safer it is to dive nitrox on air tables and how that safety factor greatly outweighs a few a.sholes who killed themselves. > Meanwhile, here's what I'll do: next time yer in SoFla, I'll supply you > with a "recreational" nitrox mix, nothing special, one of the tanks [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Deal? Why don't we just do a normal recreational dive, me diving normal nitrox on air tables at a normal recreational profile, and you diving whatever, and if I survive you give me the $1,000. That's obviously closer to a real-life situation. In real life, diving nitrox on air tables provides an extra margin of safety. >>And that's semantics. Plenty of people have died from the combination of >>"recreational" nitrox PPO2 as misinterpreted by "recreational" air [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > closer to a real-life situation. In real life, diving nitrox on air > tables provides an extra margin of safety. In real life, there ain't no "normal" dives or "normal" nitrox. I already gave you the benefit of the ridiculous margins of "recreational" dives, now ya want to further dumb it down to "normal"????? And you certainly don't qualify as "normal" in any respect. Do ya take my challenge or not? esg You should replace "air tables" with "air depth". The danger is not greater. Only the place where fate will strike has shifted. Regarding those who think they can dive to depth ok with air when they are using nitrox. Matthias >> Not at recreational depths, but you knew that. > [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > esg SignatureVK exquis. mod. Gesch.haus in ruh. Wohnl.3 WE, ehem. Praxis, ca. 350/1000 qm WF/Grdst. 19km nördl. Braunschweig , hochw. einger; Nah VW, Hafen; frei, 0160-4433698 o. 0911-7809081. Gut für Arzt/RA/Ing.büro, oder ruhiges Wohnen, Bilder vorh. > And nitrox on air tables could make you dead when ya could be sitting in > a chamber sipping rum. Isn't it the other way round? I heard the risk of being eaten by sharks is proportional to bottom time. Matthias >> And nitrox on air tables could make you dead when ya could be sitting in >> a chamber sipping rum. There was no rum in the chamber I once occupied. There was no nothing except me and a lot of oxygen. > Isn't it the other way round? > I heard the risk of being eaten by sharks is proportional to bottom time. You heard correctly. > I heard the risk of being eaten by sharks is proportional to > bottom time. I heard that sharks prefer the taste of nitrox divers... Signature"Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere may be happy." >>>> Of >>>>course I could dive with a standard air computer and dive Nitrox for the [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > And nitrox on air tables could make you dead when ya could be sitting in a > chamber sipping rum. How? As long as you use the maximum depth for your mix of Nitrox, everything else on the chart is very conservative. Isn't the idea of getting Nitrox certified knowing that you can't exceed the maximum depths for your mix? Everything else on the air tables should make you safer and give you an extra margin of safety. Obviously, you have to keep a sharper eye on your depth. > How? As long as you use the maximum depth for your mix of Nitrox, > everything else on the chart is very conservative. Isn't the idea of > getting Nitrox certified knowing that you can't exceed the maximum depths > for your mix? Everything else on the air tables should make you safer and > give you an extra margin of safety. Obviously, you have to keep a sharper > eye on your depth. Now there's a great idea: take yer depth off one table, yer time off another, maybe yer surface interval off Hillary's latest polls and SHAZAM! yer more safe than ya ever dreamed ya could be! Don't get me wrong, I do my own planning with a random number generator. It gives me a huge increase in perceived margin of safety and statistically I ain't dead yet. esg >> How? As long as you use the maximum depth for your mix of Nitrox, >> everything else on the chart is very conservative. Isn't the idea of [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > esg How can you so miss the point? I understand what you are saying, but the whole idea of becoming Nitrox certified is to drill into your head the idea that you must limit your depth when you dive Nitrox. If you do that, and dive on air tables or use an air computer, you are diving with a lot more leeway toward safety than when you use the Nitrox tables. Some of you speak of OxTox. If you don't stay down as long as the Nitrox tables allow how can this be dangerous? It's impossible. I will give you this -- Diving on dive tables can be dangerous, any dive tables. One move of your finger as you are navigating the chart can kill you. Add to that the fact that you must do simple math to compute repetitive dives and you are really asking for trouble. In my OW course almost all the exam questions missed by students were multiple dive computations using a dive table. > How can you so miss the point? I understand what you are saying, but the > whole idea of becoming Nitrox certified is to drill into your head the idea > that you must limit your depth when you dive Nitrox. You have to limit your dive with any gas. And understand why. >>How can you so miss the point? I understand what you are saying, but the >>whole idea of becoming Nitrox certified is to drill into your head the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > And understand why. Except with neon. With neon you can go as deep as you want. You just have to watch yer time very very closely. esg > Except with neon. With neon you can go as deep as you want. You just > have to watch yer time very very closely. Makes your pee-pee glow? > Makes your pee-pee glow? Only if you piss on a high voltage power supply... Signature"Wives live longer than husbands because they're not married to women." >>Except with neon. With neon you can go as deep as you want. You just >>have to watch yer time very very closely. > > Makes your pee-pee glow? Yeah, but eliminates that Donald Duck voice. |
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