Scuba Forum / General / September 2007
Scuba related Science Fair Projects
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Ron T - 17 Sep 2007 01:20 GMT My son wants to do his fifth grade science fair project on something that will involve Scuba (or require him to dive as part of his research). He is certified and I'll be with him but neither of us havea great idea.
For where we live, I would suggest lake, river or spring related would be the best options.
Any suggestions?
Tazz - 17 Sep 2007 02:16 GMT > My son wants to do his fifth grade science fair project on something > that will involve Scuba (or require him to dive as part of his [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Any suggestions? You could do something to do with Boyle's Law. Maybe something like filling plastic bottles at different depths and comparing the pressures exerted on the containers. One on the surface as a baseline so to speak, one at 15 ft., one at 30 ft. ...
I might even try this myself to help visualize what's going on in my lungs and sinus.
 Signature </TAZZ>
Tazz - 17 Sep 2007 02:56 GMT <snip>
> You could do something to do with Boyle's Law. Maybe something like > filling plastic bottles at different depths and comparing the pressures [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I might even try this myself to help visualize what's going on in my > lungs and sinus. Of course I mean filling the bottles with air and putting the cap on.
Something to think about: If you fill a glass with water above the surface, is it correct to say that you are dumping the water out when you fill the glass with air under the surface?
 Signature </TAZZ>
dechucka - 17 Sep 2007 05:43 GMT >> My son wants to do his fifth grade science fair project on something that >> will involve Scuba (or require him to dive as part of his research). He [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > I might even try this myself to help visualize what's going on in my lungs > and sinus. Ok now I know what a science fair is.
Boyles law :- measuring the volume of an empty (sealed at the surface) 2l drink containers at different depths, measuring at what depth 2l drink bottles splits when filled at a depth and brought to the surface. Maybe do this fresh water VS. salt water or at different altitudes or different sites barometric pressure Actually balloons may be better.
or do something with fizzy drinks showing what happens to the nitrogen in peoples blood with pressure and the danger of the bends.
or some sort of environmental study
Conshelf - 17 Sep 2007 06:04 GMT In rec.scuba, on Sun 16 Sep 2007 11:43:03p, "dechucka" <dechucka@vomithotmail.com> wrote:
> measuring at what depth 2l drink bottles splits when filled at a depth > and brought to the surface. The typical 2 liter carbonated drink bottle is going to hold significantly more pressure than you could likely expect anyone to allow their kid to dive to the equivalent depth. The cap threads are designed to blow the cap off at 150 psi from what I understand. According to the following link, the bottles themselves are perhaps good for up to 250 psi.
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/7914/press.htm
Assuming 150 psi, we're looking at around 337 ft of depth equivalent.
Not exactly a depth that a parent is likely to let their kid go to.
dechucka - 17 Sep 2007 06:39 GMT > In rec.scuba, on Sun 16 Sep 2007 11:43:03p, "dechucka" > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Not exactly a depth that a parent is likely to let their kid go to. OK I give up with suggestions, hope the little f.cker fails
:-) chilly - 17 Sep 2007 02:44 GMT > My son wants to do his fifth grade science fair project on something > that will involve Scuba (or require him to dive as part of his [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Any suggestions? Karsts, caves and sinkholes
Here's an article to get the thinking process started:
GINNIE SPRINGS, Florida (30 July 2005) -- When he was 13, native Floridian Wes Skiles discovered the caves of Ginnie Springs and was mesmerized by the clear water and captivated by the force and amount of water he witnessed gushing out of the Earth.
He immediately knew he would dedicate his life to underwater exploration.
Skiles, 47, a cave-diving expert and a certified divers since age 16, is now a veteran underwater cameraman and director and executive producer for the environment media specialists Karst Productions.
He mapped the underwater cave system at Ginnie Springs in 1976 for his good friends and Ginnie land owners' Barbara Wray Suggs and her former husband Bob (the couple is now divorced). That same year, it opened it as a private attraction.
Some people are excited about shipwrecks, but his passion has always been underwater caves, says Skiles.
"All the mysteries in life you could want to explore were right there in the same place," says Skiles.
When he set out as a young man to map the caves at Ginnie, 26 drowning deaths had been recorded, and Skiles wanted to assist the owners in making its caves safe enough for others to enjoy this underwater treasure, says Skiles.
Skiles, who has served as a consultant to the park since 1983, implemented the "no lights rule" at the Devil Springs system at Ginnie Springs more than 20 years ago, one of many precautionary measures he initiated to reduce the amount of cave-diving fatalities, changes that included the inception of scuba and cave-diving instruction at the facility.
The "no light rule," which allows only certified professional divers to carry lights into the caves, prevents untrained divers from attempting to navigate the confusing multiple passageways of Little Devil, Devil's Eye and Devil's Ear, which are too dark to investigate without proper lighting equipment, says Skiles.
Skiles' mapping of the cave system directly aided in the effort to install the welded grate in the back of Ginnie Cavern's Ballroom that denies entrance into the silty, perilous labyrinth of confounding 5-way intersections beyond it.
The grate does not restrict water flow however, so divers wishing to gain a sense of the intense force of the 35 million gallons of water a day that pump through the opening can press their faces up to the grate.
No deaths at Ginnie Springs have been attributed to lost divers since 1976, the year the park banned non-certified divers bringing lights down in the Devil Springs system and added the grate, says Skiles.
Skiles has also studied scientific aspects of the springs and his Karst Productions team (formerly Karst Environmental Services), has developed flow management techniques and dye tracing to help track the course of the water and identify potential threats and hazards to the source of this fragile ecosystem.
Among his work with Karst Productions, Skiles has led underwater cave-diving expeditions and served as a producer and/or cameraman for the National Geographic Explorer specials "Mysteries Underground," "Into the Labyrinth," and "Endangered Mermaids," and shot and produced original programming for PBS entitled a "Waters Journey: The Hidden Rivers of Florida," which examines Florida's river system above and below ground. Skiles just finished filming on "The Cave," major motion picture release from Sony, due out August 26.
As an expert underwater filmmaker and modern-day explorer with Karst, he has traveled to six continents. Yet, with an office just across the street from the Ginnie Springs' park entrance, he feels like part of the family at Ginnie Springs. It remains his "sentimental favorite."
hierophantfish@hotmail.com - 18 Sep 2007 16:00 GMT > "Ron T" <ombl...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message <snip>
> Karsts, caves and sinkholes > Here's an article to get the thinking process started: > GINNIE SPRINGS, Florida (30 July 2005) -- When he was 13, native Floridian > Wes Skiles discovered the caves of Ginnie Springs and was mesmerized by the > clear water and captivated by the force and amount of water he witnessed > gushing out of the Earth. <snip>
> Among his work with Karst Productions, Skiles has led underwater cave-diving > expeditions and served as a producer and/or cameraman for the National [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > filming on "The Cave," major motion picture release from Sony, due out > August 26. <snip>
Parts of the movie "The Cave" was filmed at Hidden Worlds, not at Ginnie. I guess the owners of Hidden gave Skiles the rights to film there. After diving at both, I liked Hidden Worlds alot and I thought that Ginnie was just fair.
dechucka - 17 Sep 2007 03:29 GMT > My son wants to do his fifth grade science fair project on something > that will involve Scuba (or require him to dive as part of his [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Any suggestions? What's a science fair?
Posting out of cultural ignorance
Conshelf - 17 Sep 2007 03:32 GMT In rec.scuba, on Sun 16 Sep 2007 09:29:03p, "dechucka" <dechucka@vomithotmail.com> wrote:
> What's a science fair? > > Posting out of cultural ignorance Too lazy to do a google search?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_fair
dechucka - 17 Sep 2007 03:34 GMT > In rec.scuba, on Sun 16 Sep 2007 09:29:03p, "dechucka" > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Too lazy to do a google search? no not that interested, thought someone could explain in a line or 3
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_fair but thanks for the link
Conshelf - 17 Sep 2007 03:37 GMT In rec.scuba, on Sun 16 Sep 2007 09:32:31p, Conshelf <Conshelf@127.0.0.1> wrote:
>> Posting out of cultural ignorance > > Too lazy to do a google search? > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_fair Pressed "send" a bit too quick.
http://www.csun.edu/~lg48405/vsf/ch1/ch1_wha.html
That's probably a better description if you really have no idea what one is about.
dechucka - 17 Sep 2007 03:44 GMT > In rec.scuba, on Sun 16 Sep 2007 09:32:31p, Conshelf <Conshelf@127.0.0.1> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > is > about. wiki said enough for me. Seems a great opportunity for parents to shine through their kids and over the top of the kids who do it properly.
IMHO only; it may well be all above board and legit and the best kid wins
Conshelf - 17 Sep 2007 03:55 GMT In rec.scuba, on Sun 16 Sep 2007 09:44:04p, "dechucka" <dechucka@vomithotmail.com> wrote:
> wiki said enough for me. Seems a great opportunity for parents to > shine through their kids and over the top of the kids who do it > properly. > > IMHO only; it may well be all above board and legit and the best kid > wins Unfortunately, it often becomes a measure of the ability of the parents these days. The concept of allowing the kid to make mistakes and learn from them tends to be a bit alien to many parents these days. It's been that way (and getting worse) for the last few decades. The children of the Baby Boomer Generation is the Slacker Generation.
dechucka - 17 Sep 2007 03:59 GMT > In rec.scuba, on Sun 16 Sep 2007 09:44:04p, "dechucka" > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > the > Baby Boomer Generation is the Slacker Generation. anyhow thanks for the info
nitespark - 17 Sep 2007 11:49 GMT > My son wants to do his fifth grade science fair project on something > that will involve Scuba (or require him to dive as part of his [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Any suggestions? How about the effects of depth & pressure?
Not sure how deep you would have to go and you may not have to dive at all. But I saw a demonstration once where they took a styrofoam cup to depth. When they surfaced with it, it was only a fraction of its original size (they compared it to a cup that stayed on the surface). He could do a series of tests with cups. A cup taken to 33 ft, a cup taken to 66 ft, a cup taken to 99 ft and create a display showing the increasing effects of depth & pressure. He could fashion a container that would be designed to flood. Mark of a section of rope with markings at 33 ft intervals. Lower the cups in the container at various depths and observe the effects.
John Cassara - 17 Sep 2007 12:51 GMT How about photographic studies. Fish identification, crustations, plant life. Environmental impact studies. Is there a discharge basin in your area. Dive the shoreline at various intervals from the basin and collect data such as fish count, plant density and species differentiation. Draw conclusions from the observations. Take good notes from each dive site and highlight your conclusions from each location with a good picture. You will not need to display allot of pictures just use the pictures that tell your story from each site. Show the region on a wall map depicting each dive site. Good Luck!
John Winner of several Science Fairs many years ago!
>> My son wants to do his fifth grade science fair project on something that >> will involve Scuba (or require him to dive as part of his research). He [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > flood. Mark of a section of rope with markings at 33 ft intervals. Lower > the cups in the container at various depths and observe the effects. Lee Bell - 17 Sep 2007 13:19 GMT John Cassara
> How about photographic studies. Fish identification, crustations, plant > life. Environmental impact studies. Is there a discharge basin in your [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > your story from each site. Show the region on a wall map depicting each > dive site. Good Luck! Better still, take all the evidence to the state and federal environmental people and get them to withdraw the permit for the outflow. Ask El Stroko Guapo how. He's part of an organization that's been quite successful at this lately.
Lee
Lee Bell - 17 Sep 2007 13:16 GMT >> My son wants to do his fifth grade science fair project on something that >> will involve Scuba (or require him to dive as part of his research). He [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > flood. Mark of a section of rope with markings at 33 ft intervals. Lower > the cups in the container at various depths and observe the effects. Interesting idea. If I were going to do it, I think I'd try foam balls rather than cups. I think it would make the results more interesting. Getting them down is easy. A weight heavy enough to sink the ball and any kind of line would work. Perhaps the best might be a downrigger. The weight for the one on my boat is easily heavy enough to sink a foam ball and the cable is strong enough not to stretch overly much as it descends. Mine has enough cable to drop several hundred feet and a counter that tells you how deep it is at any given point. A quality log of observations, a few digital photos of the process, equipment, etc., and your project is done.
Lee
ben bradlee - 17 Sep 2007 13:17 GMT > My son wants to do his fifth grade science fair project on something > that will involve Scuba (or require him to dive as part of his [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Any suggestions? Eurasian milfoil study. This would take time so a gas study would be simpler and easier. It would be interesting to show clear lake bottom and the invasion of the milfoil; how it takes root and is spread. He could show the grown plant and how it protects its area and limits other plant growth. There is an abundance of information on this subject on the Internet.
Fish. Fish are always fun. Identify species and photograph.
Topography and soil types. Use lake maps to show how the lake bottom varies in depth and what the bottom of the lake consists of at different depths and areas of the lake. Dive for bottom samples and to verify preexisting charts or maps.
Chris Guynn - 17 Sep 2007 14:15 GMT > My son wants to do his fifth grade science fair project on something > that will involve Scuba (or require him to dive as part of his [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Any suggestions? I like the drink bottle idea. I think that it would probably work best one of 2 different ways.
First, you could descend to specific depths and fill the bottles with air. Then, cap them with a balloon. At the surface, measure the expansion of the balloon. If you do this, make sure that you get good, strong balloons or they'll pop on the way up.
The second option would be to fit a bottle with a balloon at the surface and then measure how much the balloon intrudes into the bottle as you descend. For this option, I would probably mark the outside of the bottle at depth and then, at the surface, I would fill the bottle to each mark with water and measure the volume of water (this should get you a reasonably good measure of the volume of air that was remaining in the bottle).
You might do both scenarios and see how much the data varies (i.e. expansion versus contraction.
El Stroko Guapo - 17 Sep 2007 16:25 GMT > My son wants to do his fifth grade science fair project on something > that will involve Scuba (or require him to dive as part of his [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Any suggestions? Water sampling at various depths and locations. Your state lab might be happy to do the analysis.
esg
Ron T - 18 Sep 2007 10:43 GMT Great idea'sand we appreciate them all.
I like the styrofoam pressure test but we live in an area that has no direct drops beyond 35 feet (several cave systems go deeper, but nothing straight down).
He came up with an idea yesterday that fits the fifth-grade type project. He was getting fitted for dive fins last month and noticed all the different types. He wants to test them and see if one type is better than another.
he'll have a subject (*me) swim a 25m straight course at a set depth while measuring the number of kicks I make with each set of fins and how long i take. I'll do the course three times to get an average.
Right now we're planning to test: Mare's Quattros, Mares Plana Aventuras, Scuba Pro Twin Jet, Dive Rite Fin and for true comparison bare feet.
I'm simplifying and just doing a no current, straight line scissor kick, but for his purposes that should be fine.
It's simple science but he's interested and that is all that matters.
Thanks again everyone
John Cassara - 18 Sep 2007 11:40 GMT Sounds good but keep in mind as you guide him, the science is in the design differences. When one fin works better than the other a theory has to be developed, tested and proven by the research involved. If not then you're merely advertising. Be sure to pick distinctly different fins or all exactly the same design with subtle differences.
> Great idea'sand we appreciate them all. > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Thanks again everyone El Stroko Guapo - 18 Sep 2007 14:31 GMT > Great idea'sand we appreciate them all. > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Thanks again everyone Until the late '30s, scuba divers walked, just like surface supply divers. It was Hans Hass that popularized "swim diving", using (and eventually marketing) fins based on de Corlieu's designs.
Louis Marie de Corlieu, a French navy commander, designed a swim fin based on a scientific principle, the Law of Cubes, which explains – and solves – the problem of variances in propulsion from different portions of the fin. His 1933 patent describes a flexible rubber fin specifically deigned to reduce this discontinuity of propulsion by varying the stiffness of the fin from foot pocket to tip.
Fins are as essential to modern scuba as tanks and regs, but their role is often overlooked.
We look forward to seeing the results of your son's tests, and he should attempt to explain why there are differences, if there are.
esg
Brad - 18 Sep 2007 23:16 GMT Oh goody. We all know that split fins will be more efficient and look just too cool, and that freediving fins don't work below 35 feet. You should also do aerodynamic testing on snorkels and then perhaps if you have time wether a Barret is the most efficient whale harvesting device for your local stream/river ;-) What other ideas go down well here?
 Signature Brad Leyden 6° 43.5816' S 146° 59.3097' E WGS84 Forecast for tomorrow, heavy showers overnight with a fine day. Temps: min 24ºC max 32ºC Bet I'm right for where I am, Could you say the same without changing it daily? To mail spam is really hot but please reply to thread so all may benefit (or laugh at my mistakes)
> >> Great idea'sand we appreciate them all. [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > > esg hierophantfish@hotmail.com - 18 Sep 2007 16:19 GMT > My son wants to do his fifth grade science fair project on something > that will involve Scuba (or require him to dive as part of his [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > be the best options. > Any suggestions? He could show what happens during "lake turn-over"; the process where the lake water changes from the summer to the winter. He could display "river rocks" that come from the bottom of any river and show how they are smoothed over by the water current. He could show which fish species live where and so what divers might expect to find in those waters and if he wanted, he could also include things like fresh water snails / clams, frogs, snakes, etc. He could also do something on the effects of everyone using companies like ChemLawn to put fertilizer and pesticides on their lawn and then what happens when those chemicals wash into the near-by lake or river. If he does that, he can get a list from the state game commission that tells you how many of various fish you can eat in your area without getting poisoned from mercury or PCB's.
Sheldon - 18 Sep 2007 23:41 GMT > My son wants to do his fifth grade science fair project on something > that will involve Scuba (or require him to dive as part of his [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Any suggestions? I'm not real big on the fin thing. I think the Boyles Law is the best idea. Do it any way you want, but be sure to take plenty of photos, and make sure you apply the findings to diving -- why you have to clear your ears when you dive and why you have to keep breathing, and why an emergency ascent works as the air expands in your lungs, mask squeeze, etc.
John Cassara - 26 Sep 2007 12:24 GMT Any updates?
> My son wants to do his fifth grade science fair project on something > that will involve Scuba (or require him to dive as part of his [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Any suggestions? Ron T - 27 Sep 2007 10:25 GMT He is filling out the paperwork tonight and should have approval next week.
Since he has to do a project every year, we decided to save the Boyle's law angle until later. To introduce acocept that his class has not even remotely touched on could cause questions about who did the work. He understands the basics of Boyle's and could pull it off but it just isn't worth dealing with the establishment of his school.
So for now he is going to do the fin comparison (which was his idea afterall and closer to the level of science the elementary school is doing).
Thanks for asking.
> Any updates? > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > > > Any suggestions?
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