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Scuba Forum / General / September 2007

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Scuba related Science Fair Projects

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Ron T - 17 Sep 2007 01:20 GMT
My son wants to do his fifth grade science fair project on something
that will involve Scuba (or require him to dive as part of his
research). He is certified and I'll be with him but neither of us havea
great idea.

For where we live, I would suggest lake, river or spring related would
be the best options.

Any suggestions?
Tazz - 17 Sep 2007 02:16 GMT
> My son wants to do his fifth grade science fair project on something
> that will involve Scuba (or require him to dive as part of his
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Any suggestions?

You could do something to do with Boyle's Law. Maybe something like
filling plastic bottles at different depths and comparing the pressures
exerted on the containers. One on the surface as a baseline so to speak,
one at 15 ft., one at 30 ft. ...

I might even try this myself to help visualize what's going on in my
lungs and sinus.

Signature

</TAZZ>

Tazz - 17 Sep 2007 02:56 GMT
<snip>

> You could do something to do with Boyle's Law. Maybe something like
> filling plastic bottles at different depths and comparing the pressures
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> I might even try this myself to help visualize what's going on in my
> lungs and sinus.

Of course I mean filling the bottles with air and putting the cap on.

Something to think about: If you fill a glass with water above the
surface, is it correct to say that you are dumping the water out when
you fill the glass with air under the surface?

Signature

</TAZZ>

dechucka - 17 Sep 2007 05:43 GMT
>> My son wants to do his fifth grade science fair project on something that
>> will involve Scuba (or require him to dive as part of his research). He
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> I might even try this myself to help visualize what's going on in my lungs
> and sinus.

Ok now I know what a science fair is.

Boyles law :- measuring the volume of an empty (sealed at the surface)  2l
drink containers at different depths, measuring at what depth 2l drink
bottles splits when filled at a depth and brought to the surface. Maybe do
this fresh water VS. salt water or at different altitudes or different sites
barometric pressure Actually balloons may be better.

or do something with fizzy drinks showing what happens to the nitrogen in
peoples blood with pressure and the danger of the bends.

or some sort of environmental study
Conshelf - 17 Sep 2007 06:04 GMT
In rec.scuba, on Sun 16 Sep 2007 11:43:03p, "dechucka"
<dechucka@vomithotmail.com> wrote:

> measuring at what depth 2l drink bottles splits when filled at a depth
> and brought to the surface.

The typical 2 liter carbonated drink bottle is going to hold significantly
more pressure than you could likely expect anyone to allow their kid to
dive to the equivalent depth.  The cap threads are designed to blow the cap
off at 150 psi from what I understand.  According to the following link,
the bottles themselves are perhaps good for up to 250 psi.

http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/7914/press.htm

Assuming 150 psi, we're looking at around 337 ft of depth equivalent.

Not exactly a depth that a parent is likely to let their kid go to.
dechucka - 17 Sep 2007 06:39 GMT
> In rec.scuba, on Sun 16 Sep 2007 11:43:03p, "dechucka"
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> Not exactly a depth that a parent is likely to let their kid go to.

OK I give up with suggestions, hope the little f.cker fails

:-)
chilly - 17 Sep 2007 02:44 GMT
> My son wants to do his fifth grade science fair project on something
> that will involve Scuba (or require him to dive as part of his
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Any suggestions?

Karsts, caves and sinkholes

Here's an article to get the thinking process started:

GINNIE SPRINGS, Florida (30 July 2005) -- When he was 13, native Floridian
Wes Skiles discovered the caves of Ginnie Springs and was mesmerized by the
clear water and captivated by the force and amount of water he witnessed
gushing out of the Earth.

He immediately knew he would dedicate his life to underwater exploration.

Skiles, 47, a cave-diving expert and a certified divers since age 16, is now
a veteran underwater cameraman and director and executive producer for the
environment media specialists Karst Productions.

He mapped the underwater cave system at Ginnie Springs in 1976 for his good
friends and Ginnie land owners' Barbara Wray Suggs and her former husband
Bob (the couple is now divorced). That same year, it opened it as a private
attraction.

Some people are excited about shipwrecks, but his passion has always been
underwater caves, says Skiles.

"All the mysteries in life you could want to explore were right there in the
same place," says Skiles.

When he set out as a young man to map the caves at Ginnie, 26 drowning
deaths had been recorded, and Skiles wanted to assist the owners in making
its caves safe enough for others to enjoy this underwater treasure, says
Skiles.

Skiles, who has served as a consultant to the park since 1983, implemented
the "no lights rule" at the Devil Springs system at Ginnie Springs more than
20 years ago, one of many precautionary measures he initiated to reduce the
amount of cave-diving fatalities, changes that included the inception of
scuba and cave-diving instruction at the facility.

The "no light rule," which allows only certified professional divers to
carry lights into the caves, prevents untrained divers from attempting to
navigate the confusing multiple passageways of Little Devil, Devil's Eye and
Devil's Ear, which are too dark to investigate without proper lighting
equipment, says Skiles.

Skiles' mapping of the cave system directly aided in the effort to install
the welded grate in the back of Ginnie Cavern's Ballroom that denies
entrance into the silty, perilous labyrinth of confounding 5-way
intersections beyond it.

The grate does not restrict water flow however, so divers wishing to gain a
sense of the intense force of the 35 million gallons of water a day that
pump through the opening can press their faces up to the grate.

No deaths at Ginnie Springs have been attributed to lost divers since 1976,
the year the park banned non-certified divers bringing lights down in the
Devil Springs system and added the grate, says Skiles.

Skiles has also studied scientific aspects of the springs and his Karst
Productions team (formerly Karst Environmental Services), has developed flow
management techniques and dye tracing to help track the course of the water
and identify potential threats and hazards to the source of this fragile
ecosystem.

Among his work with Karst Productions, Skiles has led underwater cave-diving
expeditions and served as a producer and/or cameraman for the National
Geographic Explorer specials "Mysteries Underground," "Into the Labyrinth,"
and "Endangered Mermaids," and shot and produced original programming for
PBS entitled a "Waters Journey: The Hidden Rivers of Florida," which
examines Florida's river system above and below ground. Skiles just finished
filming on "The Cave," major motion picture release from Sony, due out
August 26.

As an expert underwater filmmaker and modern-day explorer with Karst, he has
traveled to six continents. Yet, with an office just across the street from
the Ginnie Springs' park entrance, he feels like part of the family at
Ginnie Springs. It remains his "sentimental favorite."
hierophantfish@hotmail.com - 18 Sep 2007 16:00 GMT
> "Ron T" <ombl...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
<snip>

> Karsts, caves and sinkholes
> Here's an article to get the thinking process started:
> GINNIE SPRINGS, Florida (30 July 2005) -- When he was 13, native Floridian
> Wes Skiles discovered the caves of Ginnie Springs and was mesmerized by the
> clear water and captivated by the force and amount of water he witnessed
> gushing out of the Earth.
<snip>

> Among his work with Karst Productions, Skiles has led underwater cave-diving
> expeditions and served as a producer and/or cameraman for the National
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> filming on "The Cave," major motion picture release from Sony, due out
> August 26.
<snip>

Parts of the movie  "The Cave"  was filmed at Hidden Worlds, not at
Ginnie.  I guess the owners of Hidden gave Skiles the rights to film
there.  After diving at both, I liked Hidden Worlds alot and I thought
that Ginnie was just fair.
dechucka - 17 Sep 2007 03:29 GMT
> My son wants to do his fifth grade science fair project on something
> that will involve Scuba (or require him to dive as part of his
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Any suggestions?

What's a science fair?

Posting out of cultural ignorance
Conshelf - 17 Sep 2007 03:32 GMT
In rec.scuba, on Sun 16 Sep 2007 09:29:03p, "dechucka"
<dechucka@vomithotmail.com> wrote:

> What's a science fair?
>
> Posting out of cultural ignorance

Too lazy to do a google search?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_fair
dechucka - 17 Sep 2007 03:34 GMT
> In rec.scuba, on Sun 16 Sep 2007 09:29:03p, "dechucka"
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Too lazy to do a google search?

no not that interested, thought someone could explain in a line or 3

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_fair

but thanks for the link
Conshelf - 17 Sep 2007 03:37 GMT
In rec.scuba, on Sun 16 Sep 2007 09:32:31p, Conshelf <Conshelf@127.0.0.1>
wrote:

>> Posting out of cultural ignorance
>
> Too lazy to do a google search?
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_fair

Pressed "send" a bit too quick.

http://www.csun.edu/~lg48405/vsf/ch1/ch1_wha.html

That's probably a better description if you really have no idea what one is
about.
dechucka - 17 Sep 2007 03:44 GMT
> In rec.scuba, on Sun 16 Sep 2007 09:32:31p, Conshelf <Conshelf@127.0.0.1>
> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> is
> about.

wiki said enough for me. Seems a great opportunity for parents to shine
through their kids and over the top of the kids who do it properly.

IMHO only;   it may well be all above board and legit and the best kid wins
Conshelf - 17 Sep 2007 03:55 GMT
In rec.scuba, on Sun 16 Sep 2007 09:44:04p, "dechucka"
<dechucka@vomithotmail.com> wrote:

> wiki said enough for me. Seems a great opportunity for parents to
> shine through their kids and over the top of the kids who do it
> properly.
>
> IMHO only;   it may well be all above board and legit and the best kid
> wins

Unfortunately, it often becomes a measure of the ability of the parents
these days.  The concept of allowing the kid to make mistakes and learn
from them tends to be a bit alien to many parents these days.  It's been
that way (and getting worse) for the last few decades.  The children of the
Baby Boomer Generation is the Slacker Generation.
dechucka - 17 Sep 2007 03:59 GMT
> In rec.scuba, on Sun 16 Sep 2007 09:44:04p, "dechucka"
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> the
> Baby Boomer Generation is the Slacker Generation.

anyhow thanks for the info
nitespark - 17 Sep 2007 11:49 GMT
> My son wants to do his fifth grade science fair project on something
> that will involve Scuba (or require him to dive as part of his
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Any suggestions?

How about the effects of depth & pressure?

Not sure how deep you would have to go and you may not have to dive at
all.  But I saw a demonstration once where they took a styrofoam cup to
depth.  When they surfaced with it, it was only a fraction of its
original size (they compared it to a cup that stayed on the surface).
He could do a series of tests with cups.  A cup taken to 33 ft, a cup
taken to 66 ft, a cup taken to 99 ft and create a display showing the
increasing effects of depth & pressure.  He could fashion a container
that would be designed to flood.  Mark of a section of rope with
markings at 33 ft intervals.  Lower the cups in the container at various
depths and observe the effects.
John Cassara - 17 Sep 2007 12:51 GMT
How about photographic studies. Fish identification, crustations, plant
life. Environmental impact studies. Is there a discharge basin in your area.
Dive the shoreline at various intervals from the basin and collect data such
as fish count, plant density and species differentiation. Draw conclusions
from the observations. Take good notes from each dive site and highlight
your conclusions from each location with a good picture. You will not need
to display allot of pictures just use the pictures that tell your story from
each site. Show the region on a wall map depicting each dive site. Good
Luck!

John
Winner of several Science Fairs many years ago!

>> My son wants to do his fifth grade science fair project on something that
>> will involve Scuba (or require him to dive as part of his research). He
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> flood.  Mark of a section of rope with markings at 33 ft intervals.  Lower
> the cups in the container at various depths and observe the effects.
Lee Bell - 17 Sep 2007 13:19 GMT
John Cassara
> How about photographic studies. Fish identification, crustations, plant
> life. Environmental impact studies. Is there a discharge basin in your
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> your story from each site. Show the region on a wall map depicting each
> dive site. Good Luck!

Better still, take all the evidence to the state and federal environmental
people and get them to withdraw the permit for the outflow. Ask El Stroko
Guapo how. He's part of an organization that's been quite successful at this
lately.

Lee
Lee Bell - 17 Sep 2007 13:16 GMT
>> My son wants to do his fifth grade science fair project on something that
>> will involve Scuba (or require him to dive as part of his research). He
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> flood.  Mark of a section of rope with markings at 33 ft intervals.  Lower
> the cups in the container at various depths and observe the effects.

Interesting idea. If I were going to do it, I think I'd try foam balls
rather than cups. I think it would make the results more interesting.
Getting them down is easy. A weight heavy enough to sink the ball and any
kind of line would work. Perhaps the best might be a downrigger. The weight
for the one on my boat is easily heavy enough to sink a foam ball and the
cable is strong enough not to stretch overly much as it descends. Mine has
enough cable to drop several hundred feet and a counter that tells you how
deep it is at any given point. A quality log of observations, a few digital
photos of the process, equipment, etc., and your project is done.

Lee
ben bradlee - 17 Sep 2007 13:17 GMT
> My son wants to do his fifth grade science fair project on something
> that will involve Scuba (or require him to dive as part of his
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Any suggestions?

Eurasian milfoil study.  This would take time so a gas study would be
simpler and easier.  It would be interesting to show clear lake bottom and
the invasion of the milfoil; how it takes root and is spread.  He could show
the grown plant and how it protects its area and limits other plant growth.
There is an abundance of information on this subject on the Internet.

Fish.  Fish are always fun.  Identify species and photograph.

Topography and soil types.  Use lake maps to show how the lake bottom varies
in depth and what the bottom of the lake consists of at different depths and
areas of the lake.  Dive for bottom samples and to verify preexisting charts
or maps.
Chris Guynn - 17 Sep 2007 14:15 GMT
> My son wants to do his fifth grade science fair project on something
> that will involve Scuba (or require him to dive as part of his
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Any suggestions?

I like the drink bottle idea.  I think that it would probably work best one
of 2 different ways.

First, you could descend to specific depths and fill the bottles with air.
Then, cap them with a balloon.  At the surface, measure the expansion of the
balloon.  If you do this, make sure that you get good, strong balloons or
they'll pop on the way up.

The second option would be to fit a bottle with a balloon at the surface and
then measure how much the balloon intrudes into the bottle as you descend.
For this option, I would probably mark the outside of the bottle at depth
and then, at the surface, I would fill the bottle to each mark with water
and measure the volume of water (this should get you a reasonably good
measure of the volume of air that was remaining in the bottle).

You might do both scenarios and see how much the data varies (i.e. expansion
versus contraction.
El Stroko Guapo - 17 Sep 2007 16:25 GMT
> My son wants to do his fifth grade science fair project on something
> that will involve Scuba (or require him to dive as part of his
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Any suggestions?

Water sampling at various depths and locations. Your state lab might be
happy to do the analysis.

esg
Ron T - 18 Sep 2007 10:43 GMT
Great idea'sand we appreciate them all.

I like the styrofoam pressure test but we live in an area that has no
direct drops beyond 35 feet (several cave systems go deeper, but nothing
straight down).

He came up with an idea yesterday that fits the fifth-grade type
project. He was getting fitted for dive fins last month and noticed all
the different types. He wants to test them and see if one type is better
than another.

he'll have a subject (*me) swim a 25m straight course at a set depth
while measuring the number of kicks I make with each set of fins and how
long i take. I'll do the course three times to get an average.

Right now we're planning to test: Mare's Quattros, Mares Plana
Aventuras, Scuba Pro Twin Jet, Dive Rite Fin and for true comparison
bare feet.

I'm simplifying and just doing a no current, straight line scissor kick,
but for his purposes that should be fine.

It's simple science but he's interested and that is all that matters.

Thanks again everyone
John Cassara - 18 Sep 2007 11:40 GMT
Sounds good but keep in mind as you guide him, the science is in the design
differences. When one fin works better than the other a theory has to be
developed, tested and proven by the research involved. If not then you're
merely advertising. Be sure to pick distinctly different fins or all exactly
the same design with subtle differences.

> Great idea'sand we appreciate them all.
>
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>
> Thanks again everyone
El Stroko Guapo - 18 Sep 2007 14:31 GMT
> Great idea'sand we appreciate them all.
>
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>
> Thanks again everyone

Until the late '30s, scuba divers walked, just like surface supply
divers. It was Hans Hass that popularized "swim diving", using (and
eventually marketing) fins based on de Corlieu's designs.

Louis Marie de Corlieu, a French navy commander, designed a swim fin
based on a scientific principle, the Law of Cubes, which explains – and
solves – the problem of variances in propulsion from different portions
of the fin. His 1933 patent describes a flexible rubber fin specifically
deigned to reduce this discontinuity of propulsion by varying the
stiffness of the fin from foot pocket to tip.

Fins are as essential to modern scuba as tanks and regs, but their role
is often overlooked.

We look forward to seeing the results of your son's tests, and he should
attempt to explain why there are differences, if there are.

esg
Brad - 18 Sep 2007 23:16 GMT
Oh goody. We all know that split fins will be more efficient and look just
too cool, and that freediving fins don't work below 35 feet. You should also
do aerodynamic testing on snorkels and then perhaps if you have time wether
a Barret is the most efficient whale harvesting device for your local
stream/river ;-) What other ideas go down well here?

Signature

Brad Leyden
6° 43.5816' S 146° 59.3097' E  WGS84
Forecast for tomorrow, heavy showers overnight with a fine day.
Temps: min 24ºC max 32ºC
Bet I'm right for where I am, Could you say the same without changing it
daily?
To mail spam is really hot but please reply to thread so all may benefit (or
laugh at my mistakes)

>
>> Great idea'sand we appreciate them all.
[quoted text clipped - 40 lines]
>
> esg
hierophantfish@hotmail.com - 18 Sep 2007 16:19 GMT
> My son wants to do his fifth grade science fair project on something
> that will involve Scuba (or require him to dive as part of his
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> be the best options.
> Any suggestions?

He could show what happens during "lake turn-over";  the process where
the lake water changes from the summer to the winter.  He could
display "river rocks" that come from the bottom of any river and show
how they are smoothed over by the water current.  He could show which
fish species live where and so what divers might expect to find in
those waters and if he wanted, he could also include things like fresh
water snails / clams, frogs, snakes, etc.  He could also do something
on the effects of everyone using companies like ChemLawn to put
fertilizer and pesticides on their lawn and then what happens when
those chemicals wash into the near-by lake or river.  If he does that,
he can get a list from the state game commission that tells you how
many of various fish you can eat in your area without getting poisoned
from mercury or PCB's.
Sheldon - 18 Sep 2007 23:41 GMT
> My son wants to do his fifth grade science fair project on something
> that will involve Scuba (or require him to dive as part of his
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Any suggestions?

I'm not real big on the fin thing.  I think the Boyles Law is the best idea.
Do it any way you want, but be sure to take plenty of photos, and make sure
you apply the findings to diving -- why you have to clear your ears when you
dive and why you have to keep breathing, and why an emergency ascent works
as the air expands in your lungs, mask squeeze, etc.
John Cassara - 26 Sep 2007 12:24 GMT
Any updates?

> My son wants to do his fifth grade science fair project on something
> that will involve Scuba (or require him to dive as part of his
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Any suggestions?
Ron T - 27 Sep 2007 10:25 GMT
He is filling out the paperwork tonight and should have approval next
week.

Since he has to do a project every year, we decided to save the Boyle's
law angle until later. To introduce acocept that his class has not even
remotely touched on could cause questions about who did the work. He
understands the basics of Boyle's and could pull it off but it just
isn't worth dealing with the establishment of his school.

So for now he is going to do the fin comparison (which was his idea
afterall and closer to the level of science the elementary school is
doing).

Thanks for asking.

> Any updates?
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> >
> > Any suggestions?
 
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