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Scuba Forum / General / September 2007Octopus, which bit is it? ;-)
I'm confused, I continually hear other divers refer to their octopus and they point at their alternate air source. Surely the octupus is the entire set of regulators,hoses,first stage and guages (a multi 'legged' thing hence the term octopus). Comments? > I'm confused, I continually hear other divers refer to their octopus and > they point at their alternate air source. Surely the octupus is the entire > set of regulators,hoses,first stage and guages (a multi 'legged' thing > hence the term octopus). You're right. You're confused. The octopus is the alternate. >> I'm confused, I continually hear other divers refer to their octopus and >> they point at their alternate air source. Surely the octupus is the entire >> set of regulators,hoses,first stage and guages (a multi 'legged' thing >> hence the term octopus). > > You're right. You're confused. The octopus is the alternate. But why, surely at some point there has been corruption in the definition. The second reg you carry has a perfectly good name - alternate air, or alternate regulator. It is effectively almost exactly the same as the one as you breath off, albeit yellow in colour and tuned down a bit to stop free flow. There is nothing in fact to stop you swopping over the two regs and breathing off the alternate as a main reg, does your main reg magically become an octopus? Also it looks NOTHING like an octapus, being devoid of leg-like appendages. If it looks anything like an octapus, i'll start calling my main reg a 'squid' shall I? ;-) > But why, surely at some point there has been corruption in the definition. Not at all. You have it backwards. When the first single hose regulators came out, divers didn't use alternates, SPGs, buoyancy compensators, or much of anything else you take for granted today. You had a plate with a harness, one first stage, one hose, and one second stage. When people started adding alternate second stages, it began to look like an octopus and the added stage was referred to that way. The convention continued until recently, when the DIR boys, and probably others, came up with the idea that it was better to breathe the long hose and to donate it. To the best of my knowledge, that's when the term alternate came into vogue. Unlike previous configurations, the alternate was on the short hose. > The second reg you carry has a perfectly good name - alternate air, or > alternate regulator. It is effectively almost exactly the same as the one > as you breath off, albeit yellow in colour and tuned down a bit to stop > free flow. Yours may be yellow and just like the other. Mine isn't. Mine is black, smaller than my primary and on a much shorter hose. In fact, it's on a hose that is shorter than what you probably use for your primary. It is deliberately worn, colored and sized to keep an OOA diver from seeing it. Many believe an OOA diver will grab the regulator out of someone's mouth first. I try to ensure that they do. That's the one I want them to use. My primary, which is what I would donate, is on the longer hose, a 5 foot hose. > Also it looks NOTHING like an octapus, being devoid of leg-like > appendages. > If it looks anything like an octapus, i'll start calling my main reg a > 'squid' shall I? ;-) If you like. Lee >>> I'm confused, I continually hear other divers refer to their octopus >>> and they point at their alternate air source. Surely the octupus is [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > If it looks anything like an octapus, i'll start calling my main reg a > 'squid' shall I? ;-) The term goes back to when we used single hose regs. These days, it does look more like an explosion in a spaghetti factory than an octopus. esg >>> I'm confused, I continually hear other divers refer to their octopus and >>> they point at their alternate air source. Surely the octupus is the [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > If it looks anything like an octapus, i'll start calling my main reg a > 'squid' shall I? ;-) You're trying to make sense out of a term that really makes no sense. Why do you press Start to turn your computer off? (PC) > You're trying to make sense out of a term that really makes no sense. Why > do you press Start to turn your computer off? (PC) It does if you know its origin. This is from the Wikipedia entry: All modern scuba sets have a spare second-stage demand valve on its own second hose, a configuration called an "octopus" because it often has more hoses for other purposes coming out of the primary regulator on the cylinder top. This second "second-stage" regulator and hose, or "alternate air source", or "safe secondary" or "safe-second" for short, is typically yellow (signaling that it is an emergency or backup device). Karl >> You're trying to make sense out of a term that really makes no sense. >> Why do you press Start to turn your computer off? (PC) > > It does if you know its origin. > This is from the Wikipedia entry: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > air source", or "safe secondary" or "safe-second" for short, is typically > yellow (signaling that it is an emergency or backup device). You know that Wikipedia is written by users, right? Lee >> This is from the Wikipedia entry: >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Lee Users that know what they are talking about rather than listening to a misdiscription passed down by diving 'gurus'? > >> This is from the Wikipedia entry: > >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Users that know what they are talking about rather than listening to a > misdiscription passed down by diving 'gurus'? Or users who really have no clue themselves and are just passing on whatever they may have picked up from other diving 'gurus'. >>>> hoses for other purposes coming out of the primary regulator on the >>>> cylinder top. This second "second-stage" regulator and hose, or [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Or users who really have no clue themselves and are just passing on whatever > they may have picked up from other diving 'gurus'. Does the Governement's HSE qualify as a guru? http://sro.hse.gov.uk/View_Article.aspx?id=170 They also beleive an octopus is the 'whole' whilst doing tests. "When using Self-Contained Underwater Breathing Apparatus (SCUBA) it is recommended that divers use an appropriate alternative breathing gas source/secondary life support system. 'Octopus' systems (comprising 2 second stage demand regulators supplied from a single first stage regulator) are often used to fulfill this requirement in the recreational diving sector." and more pointedly: "Three of the original six 'Octopus' systems were used for this study and these represented the full range of expected performance. The original testing identified that the greatest demand, and associated degradation in performance, occurred when both 'Octopus' valves were breathed in-phase." if only the alternate is 'the octopus' this sentence is meaningless. > Does the Governement's HSE qualify as a guru? No, it does not. In fact, there's no dive related class of people I can think of less qualified than those that work for the governemnt, the UK government in particular. Take a good look at the proposed and final rules for valves required for any tank used for a gas with greater than 21% oxygen as an example. My government thinks I .22 semi automatic rimfire rifle that will hold more than 10 rounds of ammunition in the magazine is an assault rifle. They're not much better than HSE. > http://sro.hse.gov.uk/View_Article.aspx?id=170 > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > if only the alternate is 'the octopus' this sentence is meaningless. Not at all. The term they are using is not "Octopus," but "Octopus System." A system, in normal use, consists of more than one component. An Octopus system is a system that includes an Octopus. Not meaningless at all. Lee > >>>> hoses for other purposes coming out of the primary regulator on the > >>>> cylinder top. This second "second-stage" regulator and hose, or [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > http://sro.hse.gov.uk/View_Article.aspx?id=170 As a guru? doubtful As knowledgeable in the field? probably > Users that know what they are talking about rather than listening to a > misdiscription passed down by diving 'gurus'? You you a troll or just an idiot? Blah wrote: > Users that know what they are talking about rather than listening to a > misdiscription passed down by diving 'gurus'? The point is that finding it on Wikipedia does not make it true. Personally, I use Wikipedia extensively, but I always remember that it's nothing more than a lot of information presented by people that think they know something that, in fact, may be no more correct than anyone else. Lee > Blah wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Lee The wonderful thing about Wikipedia is that anyone can intentionally insert misinformation. It's one of my favorite rainy day pastimes. esg In rec.scuba, on Wed 19 Sep 2007 07:07:35p, El Stroko Guapo <omgray@earthlink.net> wrote: > The wonderful thing about Wikipedia is that anyone can intentionally > insert misinformation. It's one of my favorite rainy day pastimes. I had wondered about the increase in suspect entries just prior to hurricanes. > This is from the Wikipedia entry: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > source", or "safe secondary" or "safe-second" for short, is typically yellow > (signaling that it is an emergency or backup device). If the intent of the paragrph is to identify the entire regulator first stage, all associated hoses, primary and second-stage as an "octopus", then this Wikipedia article isn't written very well. It appears to be naming the spare second-stage demand valve on its own second hose as the configuration called an "octopus". The paragraph seems to explain that they call the spare second an "octopus" because *it* often has more hoses for other purposes coming out of the primary regulator, which interestingly enough is attached to the cylinder top. I don't know about your regulator, but mine has a first stage (which attaches to the tank or cylinder), a primary second-stage, an alternate second-stage, a low pressure hose for my BCD and hose with a pressure gauge. (there are other ports on my first stage that would provide for a hose to be attached were I a drysuit diver) The configuration of my complete regulator set does have a slight resemblence to an "octopus", yet I've been known to refer to my "safe-second" or "alternate" as my "octopus". Most PADI-trained divers do. And this could be because that is what we were taught in the OW materials. > >> You're trying to make sense out of a term that really makes no sense. > >> Why do you press Start to turn your computer off? (PC) > > > > It does if you know its origin. >> This is from the Wikipedia entry: >> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > purposes coming out of the primary regulator, which interestingly enough is > attached to the cylinder top. I read it as - "All modern scuba has an alternate on a second hose, the OVERALL name for this configuration is an "Octapus" because of all the hoses coming out of the first stage" > I don't know about your regulator, but mine has a first stage (which > attaches to the tank or cylinder), a primary second-stage, an alternate [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > divers do. And this could be because that is what we were taught in the OW > materials. I think you'll find that this has come verbally from an instructor rather than in written materials. I can't find a SINGLE use of the word 'Octopus' in 'Go Dive', it uses only 'alternate'. The Instructor manual has ONE single use of the word 'Octopus' where the sentence reads 'The most common alternate air source is the alternate second stage or "Octopus", normally secured in plain view..." The inverted commas are Padi's, I suggest that since its only used once in an entire set of materials, its not what Padi believe an alternate to be. And its use in inverted commas show that Padi believe it to be a misused term. >>>> You're trying to make sense out of a term that really makes no sense. >>>> Why do you press Start to turn your computer off? (PC) >>> It does if you know its origin. > >> This is from the Wikipedia entry: > >> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > OVERALL name for this configuration is an "Octapus" because of all the > hoses coming out of the first stage" OK. > > I don't know about your regulator, but mine has a first stage (which > > attaches to the tank or cylinder), a primary second-stage, an alternate [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > I think you'll find that this has come verbally from an instructor > rather than in written materials. I think you'll find it in the written materials. Actually, I know you will find it in my written materials. > I can't find a SINGLE use of the word 'Octopus' in 'Go Dive', it uses > only 'alternate'. Is "Go Dive" the new PADI materials? I've been diving for quite a while, I'd be surprised if the OW manual hasn't been amended a time or two since then. > The Instructor manual has ONE single use of the word 'Octopus' where the > sentence reads 'The most common alternate air source is the alternate > second stage or "Octopus", normally secured in plain view..." Well, there ya have it. > The inverted commas are Padi's, I suggest that since its only used once > in an entire set of materials, its not what Padi believe an alternate to > be. And its use in inverted commas show that Padi believe it to be a > misused term. OK. Mine reads like this: An alternate air source second stage (also called an "octopus") is simply an additional second stage attached to the first stage of a regulator. In rec.scuba, on Wed 19 Sep 2007 01:35:37p, Blah <blah@hotmail.com> wrote: The problem with wiki is that you might get conflicting definitions on different pages. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diving_regulator <quote> Octopus Sometimes (nowadays nearly always) a single-hose regulator has more than one demand valve (= DV). If the extra DV is simply a spare DV for use by the diver's buddy it is usually called an octopus. The medium pressure hose on the octopus is usually longer than the medium pressure hose on the DV that the diver uses. </quote> Not that wiki is the definitive answer on these matters. As we've seen, they sometimes have conflicting pages. > The Instructor manual has ONE single use of the word 'Octopus' where the > sentence reads 'The most common alternate air source is the alternate [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > And its use in inverted commas show that Padi believe it to be a misused > term. PADI says "the alternate second stage or Octopus" and you conclude that that's not what they mean? Go to your local dive shop. Tell them you need to buy an Octopus and see what you get. Lee > I'm confused, I continually hear other divers refer to their octopus and > they point at their alternate air source. Surely the octupus is the entire > set of regulators,hoses,first stage and guages (a multi 'legged' thing > hence the term octopus). > > Comments? http://www.xsscuba.com/reg_altair.html Pulled any weeds lately? >> I'm confused, I continually hear other divers refer to their octopus and >> they point at their alternate air source. Surely the octupus is the entire [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Pulled any weeds lately? Ah-ha, this agrees with me : http://www.answers.com/topic/scuba "Modern "octopus" type primary stage regulators also typically feature high-pressure ports for use by computer sensors, and additional ports for additional low-pressure hoses for inflation of dry suits and buoyancy compensator (BC) devices." >>> I'm confused, I continually hear other divers refer to their octopus >>> and they point at their alternate air source. Surely the octupus is [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > for additional low-pressure hoses for inflation of dry suits and > buoyancy compensator (BC) devices." and: "All modern scuba sets have a spare second-stage demand valve on its own second hose, a configuration called an "octopus" because it often has more hoses for other purposes coming out of the primary regulator on the cylinder top." So the 'whole' is the octapus. Now I just need to convince the entire dive industry! ;-) In rec.scuba, on Fri 14 Sep 2007 07:49:52a, "ben bradlee" <NoWay@Way.Bite.Me> wrote: > http://www.xsscuba.com/reg_altair.html I don't think I like that design for an alternate. Just seems a bit strange having the mouthpiece directly opposite the air hose like that if you were actually breathing off of it yourself. It might be ok for when you were donating it to a buddy but it seems like it would be strange to breathe off of yourself. On the other hand, they had this mask that would be perfect for us old farts whose eyes either can't read our gauges or whose arms have just gotten too short to hold the gauges at the proper focal length of our eyes. http://www.xsscuba.com/mask_gaugereader.html > http://www.xsscuba.com/mask_gaugereader.html I don't see the price on there. It beats glue on ground lenses for the same purpose. In rec.scuba, on Fri 14 Sep 2007 09:39:33a, "ben bradlee" <NoWay@Way.Bite.Me> wrote: > I don't see the price on there. It beats glue on ground lenses for > the same purpose. So your arms are getting too short with old age also? -I'm confused, I continually hear other divers refer to their octopus and -they point at their alternate air source. Surely the octupus is the -entire set of regulators,hoses,first stage and guages (a multi 'legged' -thing hence the term octopus). - -Comments? no. -  SignatureBob Crownfield crownfield@verizon.net > -I'm confused, I continually hear other divers refer to their octopus and > -they point at their alternate air source. Surely the octupus is the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > no. > - helpful >> -I'm confused, I continually hear other divers refer to their octopus >> and -they point at their alternate air source. Surely the octupus is [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >> > helpful After you get to know Bob you will realize that he told you everything he knew or deduced from your post. Be thankful. He could just as easily have left you scratching your head saying, "WTF is this guy talking about?" - -"Blah" <blah@hotmail.com> wrote in message -news:5kvq27F5p7mkU1@mid.individual.net... -> crownfield wrote: ->> In article <5kv83lF5m1rnU1@mid.individual.net>, blah@hotmail.com says... ->> -I'm confused, I continually hear other divers refer to their octopus ->> and -they point at their alternate air source. Surely the octupus is ->> the -entire set of regulators,hoses,first stage and guages (a multi ->> 'legged' -thing hence the term octopus). ->> - ->> -Comments? ->> ->> ->> no. ->> - ->> -> helpful - -After you get to know Bob you will realize that he told you everything he -knew or deduced from your post. Be thankful. He could just as easily have -left you scratching your head saying, "WTF is this guy talking about?" kennybenny, that was a sheepish thing for you to say. - - - SignatureBob Crownfield crownfield@verizon.net > - > -"Blah" <blah@hotmail.com> wrote in message [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > kennybenny, that was a sheepish thing for you to say. Damn. :-) crownfield <crownfield@verizon.net> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: :kennybenny, that was a sheepish thing for you to say. But it was awfully goldarned funny. I thought your response would have been an Laugh of the Day Award. Dan Bracuk Never use a big word when a diminutive one will do. :Surely the octupus is the :entire set of regulators,hoses,first stage and guages (a multi 'legged' :thing hence the term octopus). The octopus is just the 2nd 2nd stage and hose. Nothing else. And don't call me Shirley. Dan Bracuk Never use a big word when a diminutive one will do. |
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