Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us
Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network
Home
ArticlesDiving DestinationsLearning Scuba DivingMarine LifeMiscellaneous
Discussion GroupsGeneralScuba EquipmentScuba LocationsAustralian ScubaUK Scuba
DirectoryScuba Clubs

Scuba Forum / General / August 2007

Tip: Looking for answers? Try searching our database.

Dear John:

Thread view: 
Enable EMail Alerts  Start New Thread
Thread rating: 
Douglas W. "Popeye" Frederick - 29 Aug 2007 04:00 GMT
By Laura MacInnis

GENEVA (Reuters) - The United States has 90 guns for every 100 citizens,
making it the most heavily armed society in the world, a report released on
Tuesday said.

U.S. citizens own 270 million of the world's 875 million known firearms,
according to the Small Arms Survey 2007 by the Geneva-based Graduate
Institute of International Studies.

About 4.5 million of the 8 million new guns manufactured worldwide each year
are purchased in the United States, it said.

"There is roughly one firearm for every seven people worldwide. Without the
United States, though, this drops to about one firearm per 10 people," it
said.

India had the world's second-largest civilian gun arsenal, with an estimated
46 million firearms outside law enforcement and the military, though this
represented just four guns per 100 people there. China, ranked third with 40
million privately held guns, had 3 firearms per 100 people.

Germany, France, Pakistan, Mexico, Brazil and Russia were next in the
ranking of country's overall civilian gun arsenals.

On a per-capita basis, Yemen had the second most heavily armed citizenry
behind the United States, with 61 guns per 100 people, followed by Finland
with 56, Switzerland with 46, Iraq with 39 and Serbia with 38.
Continued...

France, Canada, Sweden, Austria and Germany were next, each with about 30
guns per 100 people, while many poorer countries often associated with
violence ranked much lower. Nigeria, for instance, had just one gun per 100
people.

"Firearms are very unevenly distributed around the world. The image we have
of certain regions such as Africa or Latin America being awash with
weapons -- these images are certainly misleading," Small Arms Survey
director Keith Krause said.

"Weapons ownership may be correlated with rising levels of wealth, and that
means we need to think about future demand in parts of the world where
economic growth is giving people larger disposable income," he told a Geneva
news conference.

The report, which relied on government data, surveys and media reports to
estimate the size of world arsenals, estimated there were 650 million
civilian firearms worldwide, and 225 million held by law enforcement and
military forces.

Five years ago, the Small Arms Survey had estimated there were a total of
just 640 million firearms globally.

"Civilian holdings of weapons worldwide are much larger than we previously
believed," Krause said, attributing the increase largely to better research
and more data on weapon distribution networks.

Only about 12 percent of civilian weapons are thought to be registered with
authorities.
-hh - 29 Aug 2007 10:45 GMT
"Douglas W. \"Popeye\" Frederick" <Pop...@finalprotectivefire.com>
wrote:
> By Laura MacInnis
>
> GENEVA (Reuters)...
> On a per-capita basis, Yemen had the second most heavily armed citizenry
> behind the United States, with 61 guns per 100 people, followed by Finland
> with 56, Switzerland with 46...

I briefly heard on the news the other day that Switzerland is starting
to debate having their military reserve keep their weapons at home,
apparently due to a rise in suicides.

Could you take a look into it and let us know what's going on?

-hh
Douglas W. "Popeye" Frederick - 29 Aug 2007 12:03 GMT
> "Douglas W. \"Popeye\" Frederick" <Pop...@finalprotectivefire.com>
> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Could you take a look into it and let us know what's going on?

 Sure.

 Knee jerk mindless gun control advocates scared of other people being
armed, as usual.

 See: Suicide rates in gun-free Japan.
-hh - 29 Aug 2007 12:16 GMT
Douglas W. Popeye Frederick wrote:
> > I briefly heard on the news the other day that Switzerland is starting
> > to debate having their military reserve keep their weapons at home,
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>   Knee jerk mindless gun control advocates scared of other people being
> armed, as usual.

That hardly sounds like the Swiss that I know.  Afterall, don't forget
that this is the 'peace loving' and 'neutral' country that's quite
armed to the teeth (even Hitler didn't mess with them) and who (cough)
"accidentally" invaded another soverign country this past February.

Thanks, but I'll go do the research myself now.

-hh
Douglas W. "Popeye" Frederick - 29 Aug 2007 12:31 GMT
> Douglas W. Popeye Frederick wrote:
>> > I briefly heard on the news the other day that Switzerland is starting
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> that this is the 'peace loving' and 'neutral' country that's quite
> armed to the teeth

 Hardly.

 One rifle per man isn't a lot to brag about.

 How many fighters and bombers do they have?

 Tanks?

 Aircraft Carriers?

 Nukes?

 How about intermediate or long range missles?

> (even Hitler didn't mess with them)

 Out of convenience and collaboration.

 Not out of the fear factor you imply.

>and who (cough)
> "accidentally" invaded another soverign country this past February.

 Like Hitler into Poland?

 Whatever it was, I must have missed it.

> Thanks, but I'll go do the research myself now.

 Let us know what you find.

 Reference it, maybe, to the Japan snip.

 The Japs are about 1000 times as fierce as the Swiss, and virtually
unarmed.

 How's their suicide rate?

> -hh
janusz_w@hotmail.com - 29 Aug 2007 15:31 GMT
On 29 Sie, 13:31, "Douglas W. \"Popeye\" Frederick"
<Pop...@finalprotectivefire.com> wrote:

> > Douglas W. Popeye Frederick wrote:
> >> > I briefly heard on the news the other day that Switzerland is starting
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
>   One rifle per man isn't a lot to brag about.

Do you think that it would be better to take two rifles per man ?

>   How many fighters and bombers do they have?
>
>   Tanks?

Google swiss military - what a lazy guy

>   Aircraft Carriers?

Maybe it would be helpful for you to have a look at the map of Europe.
Switzerland is landlocked country.

>   Nukes?

What for?

>   How about intermediate or long range missles?

What for?

> > (even Hitler didn't mess with them)
>
>   Out of convenience and collaboration.
>
>   Not out of the fear factor you imply.

Douggy, as usual your historical "knowledge" is amazing.

Janusz
-hh - 29 Aug 2007 16:44 GMT
"janus...@hotmail.com" <janus...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> "Douglas W. \"Popeye\" Frederick" <Pop...@finalprotectivefire.com> wrote:
> >
> >   One rifle per man isn't a lot to brag about.
>
> Do you think that it would be better to take two rifles per man ?

During the Cold War, 10% of the Swiss population was in military
service, along with 35% of their federal budget.   That's 3x what the
per-capita is of the USA today, and twice as much as what we're
currently spending with Iraq.

In addition to the rifles, there had been 15,000 artillery sites,
frequently hidden in bunkers that are disguised as simple wooden
barns, with all crossroads and similar landmarks in range of each one
already charted on their respective firing tables.  There's a small
one open to the public in Faulensee, which was for the defense of
Thun; photo can be seen here:

http://www.swissinfo.org/xobix_media/images/sri/2005/sriimg20050527_5821956_0.jpg

There's also the Fortress Museum of F?rigen, outside of Lucern that's
worth a visit as well.  Overall, there's dozens of former coldwar
sites now open to the public; see  http://www.fort.ch

> >   How many fighters and bombers do they have?
>
> >   Tanks?
>
> Google swiss military - what a lazy guy

They used to have Mirage III's, but have gone to FA-18's...again,
hardly shoddy equipment.

For tanks, they have some, but with their mountainous terrain, their
mobility is highly limited (even before the pre-wired bridges and
tunnels are blown), which is also why they have so much indirect fire
capability.

They did take a bunch of old turrets and make them into a sort of
'pillbox' emplacements, although these were frequently covered up with
what appeared to be a mere mountainside hut.  See:

http://homepage.sunrise.ch/homepage/schwitte/images/Aktuell/R79a-064a%20Centi%20
Aug%2005.jpg


For more examples of their hidden defenses, see:
http://homepage.sunrise.ch/homepage/schwitte/willkommen.htm

> >   Aircraft Carriers?
>
> Maybe it would be helpful for you to have a look at the map of Europe.
> Switzerland is landlocked country.

As well as looking at their national doctrinal philosophies, which
tends to exclude things like 'Gunboat Diplomacy' forms of force
projection.

> >   Nukes?
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> What for?

Again, these forms of offense doesn't fit their philosophy.
Nevertheless, they did have air defense, specifically the British-
developed BL-64 "Bloodhound" missile systems; it was old and retired
in 2001, although a facility has been retained for the public to
tour...and it sounds like someone would benefit from a lot of time
spent touring.

> > > (even Hitler didn't mess with them)
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Douggy, as usual your historical "knowledge" is amazing.

Their 'Reduit' strategy (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reduit )
basically made it too expensive to mess with them, for relatively
minimal gain, so they were able to avoid conflict.   Cynically, you
could say that this was merely a cost:benefit, but we do have to
remember that historically, there were some incursions and
historically, the Swiss did at times hold POW's from both the USA and
Germany.

FWIW, the degree of national preparation is evident to anyone keeping
an open mind and eye open for it. I've personally noticed during
visits (IIRC, near Lenk?) that some of their "pastorial" airfields,
currently used obstensively for recreational gliders, happen to
contain dark grey steel gantries hidden in the adacent connifers,
various funny grass-covered lumps here and there and nearby on a
supposedly simple footpath, for some odd reason, has 100 ton rated
"footbridges", which coincidentally are not far from similarly odd
sidepaths that merely happen to dead end at sets of big, heavy doors
on the side of a mountain.

-hh
JOF - 29 Aug 2007 18:00 GMT
>which coincidentally are not far from similarly odd
>sidepaths that merely happen to dead end at sets of big, heavy doors
>on the side of a mountain.

Sounds like The Lord of the Rings.

JF
George Cathcart - 29 Aug 2007 18:03 GMT
> "janus...@hotmail.com" <janus...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > "Douglas W. \"Popeye\" Frederick" <Pop...@finalprotectivefire.com> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 95 lines]
>
>  -hh

A very good non-technical resource on the Swiss mlitary is John
McPhee's book La Place de La Concorde Suisse, see
http://www.amazon.com/Place-Concorde-Suisse-John-McPhee/dp/0374519323/ref=pd_bbs
_sr_9/105-3524966-3222058?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1188406756&sr=8-9
.

McPhee is a great non-fiction writer, and this book is no exception to
his high quality works on subjects ranging from nuclear physics to
bark canoes. As always, he tells the story through the eyes of the
people involved, and his writing is equally informative and
entertaining.

gc
Rod - 29 Aug 2007 23:29 GMT
>"janus...@hotmail.com" <janus...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> "Douglas W. \"Popeye\" Frederick" <Pop...@finalprotectivefire.com> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 98 lines]
>
> -hh

There you go again cornfusing them with facts.yappy doesn't care, he
shot his wad trying to make Doug look bad.
Eschew Obfuscation
Scott - 30 Aug 2007 01:02 GMT
> >"janus...@hotmail.com" <janus...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> "Douglas W. \"Popeye\" Frederick" <Pop...@finalprotectivefire.com> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 102 lines]
> shot his wad trying to make Doug look bad.
> Eschew Obfuscation

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/08/28/fbi.ferry/index.html
Douglas W. "Popeye" Frederick - 30 Aug 2007 08:02 GMT
਍਍"janus...@hotmail.com" <janus...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> "Douglas W. \"Popeye\" Frederick" <Pop...@finalprotectivefire.com> wrote:
> >
> >   One rifle per man isn't a lot to brag about.
>
> Do you think that it would be better to take two rifles per man ?

During the Cold War, 10% of the Swiss population was in military
service, along with 35% of their federal budget.   That's 3x what the
per-capita is of the USA today, and twice as much as what we're
currently spending with Iraq.

 I'm sure Kruschev was quaking.

In addition to the rifles, there had been 15,000 artillery sites,
frequently hidden in bunkers that are disguised as simple wooden
barns, with all crossroads and similar landmarks in range of each one
already charted on their respective firing tables.  There's a small
one open to the public in Faulensee, which was for the defense of
Thun; photo can be seen here:

 That sounds kinda like the famed Maginot Line that so succesfully defended
the French from German invasion in WW2.

http://www.swissinfo.org/xobix_media/images/sri/2005/sriimg20050527_5821956_0.jpg

There's also the Fortress Museum of Fürigen, outside of Lucern that's
worth a visit as well.  Overall, there's dozens of former coldwar
sites now open to the public; see  http://www.fort.ch

> >   How many fighters and bombers do they have?
>
> >   Tanks?
>
> Google swiss military - what a lazy guy

They used to have Mirage III's, but have gone to FA-18's...again,
hardly shoddy equipment.

 33 of them.

 They could kick the sh.t out of Lictenstein, that's for sure.

 What's the fighter-bomber complement going to be on the Gerald R. Ford?

For tanks, they have some, but with their mountainous terrain, their
mobility is highly limited (even before the pre-wired bridges and
tunnels are blown), which is also why they have so much indirect fire
capability.

They did take a bunch of old turrets and make them into a sort of
'pillbox' emplacements, although these were frequently covered up with
what appeared to be a mere mountainside hut.  See:

   That sounds kinda like the famed Maginot Line that...

http://homepage.sunrise.ch/homepage/schwitte/images/Aktuell/R79a-064a%20Centi%20
Aug%2005.jpg


For more examples of their hidden defenses, see:
http://homepage.sunrise.ch/homepage/schwitte/willkommen.htm

> >   Aircraft Carriers?
>
> Maybe it would be helpful for you to have a look at the map of Europe.
> Switzerland is landlocked country.

   Nobody can quite miss the context of a statement like Anus, the
Jew-hater and international humper of legs.

As well as looking at their national doctrinal philosophies, which
tends to exclude things like 'Gunboat Diplomacy' forms of force
projection.

 Check.

 "Besides blemishing the Evita legend the evidence threatens to inflict
more damage on Switzerland's image for plucky neutrality. The international
banking center is still staggering from disclosures about its wartime
collaboration with Adolf Hitler and Swiss profiteering off his Jewish
victims.
The archival records indicate that Switzerland's assistance to Hitler's
henchmen didn't stop with the collapse of the Third Reich.
And the old Swiss-Argentine-Nazi connection reaches to the present in
another way. Spanish "superjudge" Baltasar Garzon is seeking to open other
Swiss records on bank accounts controlled by Argentine military officers who
led the so-called "Dirty War" that killed and "disappeared" tens of
thousands of Argentines between 1976-83."

 http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Global_Secrets_Lies/EvitaNazis.html

> >   Nukes?
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> What for?

Again, these forms of offense doesn't fit their philosophy.

 Which seems to be buying and collaborating their way out of trouble.

Nevertheless, they did have air defense, specifically the British-
developed BL-64 "Bloodhound" missile systems; it was old and retired
in 2001, although a facility has been retained for the public to
tour...and it sounds like someone would benefit from a lot of time
spent touring.

> > > (even Hitler didn't mess with them)
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Douggy, as usual your historical "knowledge" is amazing.

Their 'Reduit' strategy (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reduit )
basically made it too expensive to mess with them, for relatively
minimal gain, so they were able to avoid conflict.

   That's polishing a turd:

 "Switzerland's Réduit strategy during World War II was essentially one of
deterrence. The idea was to make clear to the Third Reich that an invasion
would have a high cost. Simultaneously, economic concessions were made to
Germany in the hope that the overall cost of a German invasion would be
perceived as higher than the potential benefits. Despite this, it is clear
that Hitler intended to invade eventually and that the Allied landing at
Normandy as well as the invasion of Russia were pivotal in delaying an
invasion[1]."

 Cynically, you
could say that this was merely a cost:benefit, but we do have to
remember that historically, there were some incursions and
historically, the Swiss did at times hold POW's from both the USA and
Germany.

FWIW, the degree of national preparation is evident to anyone keeping
an open mind and eye open for it.

 I'm not seeing any evidence of an open mind, but, I do know you have the
eye for it.

 I missed the part about Swiss suicide rates.

 And you found...?

I've personally noticed during
visits (IIRC, near Lenk?) that some of their "pastorial" airfields,
currently used obstensively for recreational gliders, happen to
contain dark grey steel gantries hidden in the adacent connifers,
various funny grass-covered lumps here and there and nearby on a
supposedly simple footpath, for some odd reason, has 100 ton rated
"footbridges", which coincidentally are not far from similarly odd
sidepaths that merely happen to dead end at sets of big, heavy doors
on the side of a mountain.

-hh
janusz_w@hotmail.com - 30 Aug 2007 22:24 GMT
On 30 Sie, 09:02, "Douglas W. \"Popeye\" Frederick"
<Pop...@finalprotectivefire.com> wrote:
>   "janus...@hotmail.com" <janus...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > "Douglas W. \"Popeye\" Frederick" <Pop...@finalprotectivefire.com> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
>   I'm sure Kruschev was quaking.

FYI Cold War lasted since 1947 till 1991 and Kruschev was in power
only between 1953 and 1964.

> In addition to the rifles, there had been 15,000 artillery sites,
> frequently hidden in bunkers that are disguised as simple wooden
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>
>   33 of them.
Wonderful, I'm really surprised. If you want you can find.

>   They could kick the sh.t out of Lictenstein, that's for sure.

Do you mean Liechtenstein?

>   What's the fighter-bomber complement going to be on the Gerald R. Ford?
>
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>     Nobody can quite miss the context of a statement like Anus, the
> Jew-hater and international humper of legs.

And for sure your question was  How many Aircraft Carries are deployed
to Geneva lake?

> As well as looking at their national doctrinal philosophies, which
> tends to exclude things like 'Gunboat Diplomacy' forms of force
[quoted text clipped - 71 lines]
>
>   I missed the part about Swiss suicide rates.

19.1

>   And you found...?
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
>  -hh
janusz_w@hotmail.com - 30 Aug 2007 22:10 GMT
> "janus...@hotmail.com" <janus...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > "Douglas W. \"Popeye\" Frederick" <Pop...@finalprotectivefire.com> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> per-capita is of the USA today, and twice as much as what we're
> currently spending with Iraq.

It is quite interesting that during WWII the Swiss managed to mobilize
850,000 force, what comparing to nowadays USA would be 63 million.

> In addition to the rifles, there had been 15,000 artillery sites,
> frequently hidden in bunkers that are disguised as simple wooden
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> They used to have Mirage III's, but have gone to FA-18's...again,
> hardly shoddy equipment.

and 85 F-5s. IIRC Mirages were in service until 1999.

> For tanks, they have some, but with their mountainous terrain, their
> mobility is highly limited (even before the pre-wired bridges and
> tunnels are blown), which is also why they have so much indirect fire
> capability.

In the northern part of the country there is enough place for tanks.
The Swiss  have two tank brigades (Leopard-2)

> They did take a bunch of old turrets and make them into a sort of
> 'pillbox' emplacements, although these were frequently covered up with
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> tour...and it sounds like someone would benefit from a lot of time
> spent touring.

Excellent idea.

> > > > (even Hitler didn't mess with them)
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> historically, the Swiss did at times hold POW's from both the USA and
> Germany.

According to international law as a neutral country the were obliged
to intern soldiers from both parties (Axis and Allied) and more than
100,000 were interned including about 1600 Americans.
http://www.downing-editorial.com/images/uploads/mil.pdf

Switzerland defense system during WWII was really impressing and there
is little doubt, that attackers would have suffered heavy losses, but
we have to remember that Germany had several war plans to attack
Switzerland, especially in 1940 to outflank Maginot line.
http://theroadtoemmaus.org/RdLb/21PbAr/Pl/WrldUN/Switz01.htm

> FWIW, the degree of national preparation is evident to anyone keeping
> an open mind and eye open for it. I've personally noticed during
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> sidepaths that merely happen to dead end at sets of big, heavy doors
> on the side of a mountain.

Similar defense system is employed in North Korea.

Janusz
janusz_w@hotmail.com - 29 Aug 2007 15:21 GMT
> Douglas W. Popeye Frederick wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> armed to the teeth (even Hitler didn't mess with them) and who (cough)
> "accidentally" invaded another soverign country this past February.

BTW  Switzerland is responsible for the "sovereign country" defense,
border and custom control etc.

Janusz
Lee Bell - 29 Aug 2007 13:10 GMT
Harvard Journal Study of Worldwide Data Obliterates Notion that Gun
Ownership Correlates with Violence
     Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy Confirms that Reducing Gun
Ownership by Law-Abiding Citizens Does Nothing to Reduce Violence Worldwide

     By now, any informed American is familiar with Dr. John R. Lott, Jr.'s
famous axiom of "More Guns, Less Crime." In other words, American
jurisdictions that allow law-abiding citizens to exercise their Second
Amendment right to keep and bear arms are far safer and more crime-free than
jurisdictions that enact stringent "gun control" laws.

     Very simply, the ability of law-abiding citizens to possess firearms
has helped reduce violent crime in America.

     Now, a Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy study shows that this is
not just an American phenomenon. According to the study, worldwide gun
ownership rates do not correlate with higher murder or suicide rates. In
fact, many nations with high gun ownership have significantly lower murder
and suicide rates.

     In their piece entitled Would Banning Firearms Reduce Murder and
Suicide? A Review of International and some Domestic Evidence, Don B. Kates
and Gary Mauser eviscerate "the mantra that more guns mean more deaths and
that fewer guns, therefore, mean fewer deaths." In so doing, the authors
provide fascinating historical insight into astronomical murder rates in the
Soviet Union during the Cold War, and they dispel the myths that widespread
gun ownership is somehow unique to the United States or that America suffers
from the developed world's highest murder rate.

     To the contrary, they establish that Soviet murder rates far exceeded
American murder rates, and continue to do so today, despite Russia's
extremely stringent gun prohibitions. By 2004, they show, the Russian murder
rate was nearly four times higher than the American rate.

     More fundamentally, Dr. Kates and Dr. Mauser demonstrate that other
developed nations such as Norway, Finland, Germany, France and Denmark
maintain high rates of gun ownership, yet possess murder rates lower than
other developed nations in which gun ownership is much more restricted.

     For example, handguns are outlawed in Luxembourg, and gun ownership
extremely rare, yet its murder rate is nine times greater than in Germany,
which has one of the highest gun ownership rates in Europe. As another
example, Hungary's murder rate is nearly three times higher than nearby
Austria's, but Austria's gun ownership rate is over eight times higher than
Hungary's. "Norway," they note, "has far and away Western Europe's highest
household gun ownership rate (32%), but also its lowest murder rate. The
Netherlands," in contrast, "has the lowest gun ownership rate in Western
Europe (1.9%) ... yet the Dutch gun murder rate is higher than the
Norwegian."

     Dr. Kates and Dr. Mauser proceed to dispel the mainstream
misconception that lower rates of violence in Europe are somehow
attributable to gun control laws. Instead, they reveal, "murder in Europe
was at an all-time low before the gun controls were introduced." As the
authors note, "strict controls did not stem the general trend of
ever-growing violent crime throughout the post-WWII industrialized world."

     Citing England, for instance, they reveal that "when it had no
firearms restrictions [in the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries],
England had little violent crime." By the late 1990s, however, "England
moved from stringent controls to a complete ban on all handguns and many
types of long guns." As a result, "by the year 2000, violent crime had so
increased that England and Wales had Europe's highest violent crime rate,
far surpassing even the United States." In America, on the other hand,
"despite constant and substantially increasing gun ownership, the United
States saw progressive and dramatic reductions in criminal violence in the
1990s."

     Critically, Dr. Kates and Dr. Mauser note that "the fall in the
American crime rate is even more impressive when compared with the rest of
the world," where 18 of the 25 countries surveyed by the British Home Office
suffered violent crime increases during that same period.

     Furthermore, the authors highlight the important point that while the
American gun murder rate often exceeds that in other nations, the overall
per capita murder rate in other nations (including other means such as
strangling, stabbing, beating, etc.) is oftentimes much higher than in
America.

     The reason that gun ownership doesn't correlate with murder rates, the
authors show, is that violent crime rates are determined instead by
underlying cultural factors. "Ordinary people," they note, "simply do not
murder." Rather, "the murderers are a small minority of extreme antisocial
aberrants who manage to obtain guns whatever the level of gun ownership" in
their society.

     Therefore, "banning guns cannot alleviate the socio-cultural and
economic factors that are the real determinants of violence and crime
rates." According to Dr. Kates and Dr. Mauser, "there is no reason for laws
prohibiting gun possession by ordinary, law-abiding, responsible adults
because such people virtually never commit murder. If one accepts that such
adults are far more likely to be victims of violent crime than to commit it,
disarming them becomes not just unproductive but counter-productive."

     John Lott couldn't have stated it better himself.
janusz_w@hotmail.com - 29 Aug 2007 15:36 GMT
>       Harvard Journal Study of Worldwide Data Obliterates Notion that Gun
> Ownership Correlates with Violence
[quoted text clipped - 91 lines]
>
>       John Lott couldn't have stated it better himself.

Lee, probably you missed the fact that it was discussed in April. I
will cite my own post

"Never read anything so stupid
The full text is here
http://www.garymauser.net/pdf/KatesMauserHJPP.pdf
If you need some examples of extreme ignorance and lack of elementary
knowledge
"Poland and neighboring Slovenia have exactly the same murder rate,
though Slovenia has over triple the gun ownership per capita".

As some guys here are not very familiar with European geography - it
is a long drive from Poland to Slovenia. "

Janusz
janusz_w@hotmail.com - 29 Aug 2007 15:17 GMT
> "Douglas W. \"Popeye\" Frederick" <Pop...@finalprotectivefire.com>
> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> -hh

AFAIK there is discussion and to change current law national
referendum would be necessary.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,480545,00.html
http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,2709342,00.html

Janusz
Newbie Diver - 29 Aug 2007 13:32 GMT
"Douglas W. \"Popeye\" Frederick" <Popeye@finalprotectivefire.com>
wrote:

> By Laura MacInnis
>
> GENEVA (Reuters) - The United States has 90 guns for every 100
> citizens, making it the most heavily armed society in the world, a
> report released on Tuesday said.

Typical statistics.  They compare it to the total population of the US when
they should have compared it to the population over some particular age
(perhaps 18?) since for the most part, any gun 'owned' by someone less than
18 is probably owned and controlled by their father (or parents, as the
case may be).  Specified that way, we have over 1 gun per person old enough
to own a gun.  About 26% of the population is less than 18 years old from
what I've read on one of the Census websites.  Typically, more men own
firearms than women.  A woman might own one or two firearms, but a man is
likely to own quite a few more since they get used for whatever type of
hunting he is inclined to participate in.  It is not unreasonable to see a
man own a shotgun for waterfowl hunting, a rifle for deer hunting, a .22
rifle for small game / varmit hunting, a large caliber handgun for backup
purposes for certain types of hunting, and a .22 pistol for plinking.  Once
a man's son is old enough, he'll usually buy him a .410 shotgun.
Lee Bell - 29 Aug 2007 15:49 GMT
>> GENEVA (Reuters) - The United States has 90 guns for every 100
>> citizens, making it the most heavily armed society in the world, a
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> they should have compared it to the population over some particular age
> (perhaps 18?) . . .

If they compared it the same for other countries, what's the difference?
Newbie Diver - 29 Aug 2007 22:00 GMT
"Lee Bell" <pleebell@bellsouth.net> wrote:

> If they compared it the same for other countries, what's the
> difference?

Saying that we have less than 1 gun per person just sounds kind of lacking.
Lee Bell - 30 Aug 2007 11:25 GMT
>> If they compared it the same for other countries, what's the
>> difference?

> Saying that we have less than 1 gun per person just sounds kind of
> lacking.

Ahhhh. Actually, I think that's probably a fairly good estimate,
particularly since the article seemed to be speaking of non military/police
weapons. On the other hand, I'm pretty sure I have enough guns to make up
for those in my neighborhood who don't have even one. I'm considering
selling some to make room in my gun safe.

Lee
Newbie Diver - 30 Aug 2007 13:05 GMT
"Lee Bell" <pleebell@bellsouth.net> wrote:

> Ahhhh. Actually, I think that's probably a fairly good estimate,
> particularly since the article seemed to be speaking of non
> military/police weapons. On the other hand, I'm pretty sure I have
> enough guns to make up for those in my neighborhood who don't have
> even one. I'm considering selling some to make room in my gun safe.

Wrong technique.  Just get a bigger gun safe.
dazed and confuzzed - 30 Aug 2007 13:08 GMT
> "Lee Bell" <pleebell@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Wrong technique.  Just get a bigger gun safe.
Or another one....

Signature

“TANSTAAFL”

____________________________________________________________________________

"A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for them;
The simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences." - Proverbs 22:3
____________________________________________________________________________

Newbie Diver - 30 Aug 2007 15:23 GMT
> Or another one....

That would work also.  It would also save you from having to move the old
one.
dazed and confuzzed - 30 Aug 2007 22:10 GMT
>>Or another one....
>
> That would work also.  It would also save you from having to move the old
> one.
Much like firearms (and ammunition), you cannot have too many gun safes.

Signature

“TANSTAAFL”

____________________________________________________________________________

"A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for them;
The simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences." - Proverbs 22:3
____________________________________________________________________________

Lee Bell - 30 Aug 2007 19:43 GMT
>> I'm pretty sure I have enough guns to make up for those in my
>> neighborhood who don't have
>> even one. I'm considering selling some to make room in my gun safe.

> Wrong technique.  Just get a bigger gun safe.

I've been following that technique since I was 6, for 53 years now. It's
time to try another. Actually, I didn't have a gun safe until a few months
ago. Guns that were not in the display case in the family room were in hard
cases under the bed in what is now my reloading bedroom. I didn't have much
to worry about as long as my half dobie half shepherd was alive. He's been
gone a year or so.  When the next door neighbor's home was broken into, I
got the message and bought a safe. A half a dozen less expensive long guns,
nothing particularly useful to criminals, are still in the display case.
That would include a couple muzzle loaders, an 1800's vintage break action
single shot 410, a couple of .22s, that sort of thing.  Everything else
except my carry gun and our home defense guns are in the safe I bought about
6 months ago. I have room for more handguns, but there's a limit to how many
I can shoot in a year. I have enough. I don't have any more room for long
guns and I don't have any room for another, or a larger safe.

The problem is compounded by my reloading equipment. A month ago, I bought
cabinets for one wall of the room. They run the length of one wall and
around one corner. $3,500 worth of cabinets, and they're already completely
full of reloading supplies and loaded bullets. I keep 1,000 of each caliber
I shoot regularly, on hand. That sounds like a lot, but then again, I shoot
a lot, at least 200 rounds a week, more on weeks my pistol club holds
rifle/shotgun matches. I have 1,000 precision rounds waiting for my prairie
dog hunting trip in Wyoming in October, about 1,300 rounds for my 22-250 for
the same reason, about 1,500 for my tactical AR-15, the one I bought for
competition, 1,000 rounds for my 9mm, 10mm, .45 and .40, all guns I use in
competition plus the two 9mm home defense guns. I have 1,000 rounds of .44
Magnum, half with a reduced load for my pistol club that does not allow
magnum power guns to be used and the same for my .357. I have something over
20,000 rounds for my various .22s. I got a deal and took advantage of it in
a big way. Good thing, too. The deal is history.  On tops of all of that, I
have enough components to load another couple thousand rounds for most of
the guns I like, 4,000 for the guns I shoot most often in competition, and
6,000 for my tactical AR-15. Those I my most recent purchase. I didn't used
to load standard .223, but all sources of bulk quantities have dried up over
the last few months. It would really tick me off to have three or four
thousand bucks tied up in rifles I could not shoot.

At any rate, I have enough of everything except time to shoot some of my
stock so I can reload more. I'll take care of a couple hundred tonight.

Lee
dazed and confuzzed - 30 Aug 2007 22:35 GMT
>>>I'm pretty sure I have enough guns to make up for those in my
>>>neighborhood who don't have
[quoted text clipped - 43 lines]
>
> Lee

DUde, you really should stock up.

I mean, you need to be real and keep a decent supply around.

Signature

“TANSTAAFL”

____________________________________________________________________________

"A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for them;
The simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences." - Proverbs 22:3
____________________________________________________________________________

Lee Bell - 31 Aug 2007 09:06 GMT
> DUde, you really should stock up.
> I mean, you need to be real and keep a decent supply around.

I did some of that tonight. I came home with about 3,000 once fired .223
cases and a couple hundred loaded rounds sold by a fellow shooter that no
longer has an AR. I made arrangements to join in a bulk purchase of more
powder as well.

Lee
Newbie Diver - 30 Aug 2007 23:42 GMT
In rec.scuba, on Thu 30 Aug 2007 01:43:48p, "Lee Bell"
<pleebell@bellsouth.net> wrote:

> I've been following that technique since I was 6, for 53 years now.

Well, if it has worked this long, why change it?

> It's time to try another. Actually, I didn't have a gun safe until a
> few months ago. Guns that were not in the display case in the family
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> many I can shoot in a year. I have enough. I don't have any more room
> for long guns and I don't have any room for another, or a larger safe.

You live in Florida, right?  Is your house made from concrete blocks filled
with concrete and rebar?  If so, convert your spare bedroom into a walk-in
gun safe by replacing the interior walls with more concrete & rebar filled
concrete block walls with a safe door replacing the current normal interior
type door.

http://www.safesrus.com/vault-doors.html

Of course, you'll have to replace your ceiling also.  3/4" steel plate with
a 6+" poured concrete and rebar slab above it should deter entry from the
top.  Do it right and you'll also have an F5 level tornado shelter.
Lee Bell - 31 Aug 2007 09:08 GMT
> You live in Florida, right?  Is your house made from concrete blocks
> filled
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> a 6+" poured concrete and rebar slab above it should deter entry from the
> top.  Do it right and you'll also have an F5 level tornado shelter.

My current wife has outlasted the other two combined . . . by more than
twice. I think I'll leave well enough alone. Two can live as cheaply as one,
but only if they live together.

Lee
janusz_w@hotmail.com - 30 Aug 2007 22:50 GMT
> >> If they compared it the same for other countries, what's the
> >> difference?
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> particularly since the article seemed to be speaking of non military/police
> weapons.
http://www.smallarmssurvey.org/files/sas/publications/year_b_pdf/2007/CH2%20Stoc
kpiles.pdf

The original document speaks also about military/police weapons.
Comparing the numbers you can find that Americans owns approx. 50% of
privately owned small arms worldwide.
The number is also 10 times bigger than number of all weapons used by
LEOs in the whole world and is 1.5 times bigger than number of all
small arms used by all armed forces (US included).

Janusz

>On the other hand, I'm pretty sure I have enough guns to make up
> for those in my neighborhood who don't have even one. I'm considering
> selling some to make room in my gun safe.
>
> Lee
Geoff - 30 Aug 2007 07:22 GMT
On Tue, 28 Aug 2007 23:00:13 -0400, "Douglas W. \"Popeye\" Frederick"
<Popeye@finalprotectivefire.com> wrote:

>By Laura MacInnis

[snip]

>U.S. citizens own 270 million of the world's 875 million known firearms,
>according to the Small Arms Survey 2007 by the Geneva-based Graduate
>Institute of International Studies.
>
>About 4.5 million of the 8 million new guns manufactured worldwide each year
>are purchased in the United States, it said.

[snip]

Highly questionable statistics.

>China, ranked third with 40 million privately held guns, had 3 firearms
>per 100 people.

And they know this how? From the government or asking people on the
street in China if they have guns stashed somewhere? When did they go
to China? How many people of the 2 BILLION there, did they survey?

[snip]

>The report, which relied on government data, surveys and media reports to
>estimate the size of world arsenals, estimated there were 650 million
>civilian firearms worldwide, and 225 million held by law enforcement and
>military forces.

Ah, so they asked the governments, surveys, media... more questionable
statistics.

...but wait, they said 875 million at the top... now it's 650 million.

>Five years ago, the Small Arms Survey had estimated there were a total of
>just 640 million firearms globally.

Ah, so 650 million now, vs. 640 million 5 years ago. 10 million more
in 5 years, but wait... they said 8 million are produced annually at
the top... where did the other 30 million weapons go? And if we choose
to believe the 875 million where did the 275 million extra weapons
come from if world wide production is only 8 million annually?

>"Civilian holdings of weapons worldwide are much larger than we previously
>believed," Krause said, attributing the increase largely to better research
>and more data on weapon distribution networks.
>
>Only about 12 percent of civilian weapons are thought to be registered with
>authorities.

67 percent of all statistics are made up on the spot.
Only 12 percent are reported.

Rate this thread:






 
Sign In
Join
My Latest Posts
My Monitored Threads
My Blog
My Photo Gallery
My Profile
My Homepage

Start New Thread
Enable EMail Alerts
Rate this Thread



©2008 Advenet LLC   Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.