Scuba Forum / General / August 2007
OW certification next week -- boyancy question
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Sheldon - 12 Aug 2007 04:30 GMT Let's say you establish buoyancy at 30 feet. How far up or down can you deviate from that 30 feet by swimming up or down without adding or removing air from your bc? Oh, yeah. This means being in control as well.
I guess I'll soon find out on my own, but I can't believe you would have to make adjustments for every foot of depth. I'm also aware that as you descend you will have to add air or you win sink like an anchor, and as you go up you will have to remove air or you will rocket to the surface as the air in your bc and tank and lungs expand.
Hope I explained this right.
Thanks.
Sheldon
kjw - 12 Aug 2007 05:06 GMT >Let's say you establish buoyancy at 30 feet. How far up or down can you >deviate from that 30 feet by swimming up or down without adding or removing [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >Sheldon You should find that with a little practice, you'll touch your BC twice. Once to decend, then once after surfacing, to inflate for floatation purposes. Other than that, when properly weighted, you'll control everything with your breathing. Relaxing helps too, but this is where experience comes in. This will also come about the same time you find that your breathing efficiency increases your bottom time.
kryppy@gmail.com - 16 Aug 2007 01:17 GMT >You should find that with a little practice, you'll touch your BC >twice. Once to decend, then once after surfacing, to inflate for >floatation purposes. Other than that, when properly weighted, you'll >control everything with your breathing. Relaxing helps too, but this >is where experience comes in. This will also come about the same time >you find that your breathing efficiency increases your bottom time. In this nice warm water I have been diving with only a 1 mil shirt, I find this 100% true. Not many people who were in my class would agree, and I doubt they ever will.
dechucka - 12 Aug 2007 07:07 GMT > Let's say you establish buoyancy at 30 feet. How far up or down can you > deviate from that 30 feet by swimming up or down without adding or [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Sheldon I have read kjw's comments and have not reached his nirvana of touching my BC twice except if it is a strictly single level dive, I find that I mostly uses breath control for bouyancy control but adjust the amount of air in my when I move large amounts in depth levels say ( and one does it fairly subconsiously ) 3-4ms. I find it also makes a difference the thickness of the wetsuit, the thinner the wetsuit the easier it is to control and the less fiddling with the BC another good reason for warm water diving.
kjw is correct the more experianced and the more confident you get the easier it becomes and the less air you put into and dump from your BC the more you have to breathe .
John Hanson - 12 Aug 2007 07:18 GMT You shouldn't have to put air in your BC at that depth.
>Let's say you establish buoyancy at 30 feet. How far up or down can you >deviate from that 30 feet by swimming up or down without adding or removing [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >Sheldon Greg Mossman - 12 Aug 2007 17:30 GMT > You shouldn't have to put air in your BC at that depth. Why?
John Hanson - 12 Aug 2007 17:37 GMT >> You shouldn't have to put air in your BC at that depth. > >Why? If you're weighted right you shouldn't have to.
Greg Mossman - 12 Aug 2007 18:20 GMT > >> You shouldn't have to put air in your BC at that depth. > > >Why? > > If you're weighted right you shouldn't have to. Bullshit. Your tank is full at the beginning of the dive and your wetsuit will compress at depth. You need to have enough weight to compensate for the weight lost to air consumption toward the end of the dive and your weight suit decompression upon ascent. How do you offset all that extra weight at depth without any air in your BC?
Even Lee Bell admits to putting a bit of air in his BC when he's diving 100s and that's without a wetsuit. Try that with a 120 and a 7mm suit and tell me again you shouldn't have to put air in your BC at that depth. It's a ludicrous blanket statement.
John Hanson - 12 Aug 2007 18:41 GMT >> >> You shouldn't have to put air in your BC at that depth. >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >7mm suit and tell me again you shouldn't have to put air in your BC at >that depth. It's a ludicrous blanket statement. I don't with aluminum when I'm at only 30 feet. I suppose I would have to add a little more weight if I were planning to dive for an hour and a half or more but for a typical 1 hour dive at 30 feet, you shouldn't need any air in your BC if properly weighted.
Greg Mossman - 12 Aug 2007 18:54 GMT > On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 10:20:17 -0700, Greg Mossman
> I don't with aluminum when I'm at only 30 feet. I suppose I would > have to add a little more weight if I were planning to dive for an > hour and a half or more but for a typical 1 hour dive at 30 feet, you > shouldn't need any air in your BC if properly weighted. There is no such thing as a "typical dive" and the original poster mentioned establishing buoyancy at 30', then moving up and down the water column. No one said anything about an hour at 30'.
Like I said, bullshit.
John Hanson - 12 Aug 2007 19:10 GMT >> On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 10:20:17 -0700, Greg Mossman > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >Like I said, bullshit. Well, I didn't read it that close but I rarely add air to my BC especially when diving with my steel 119s. Heck, I don't even add weight with a 3 mil full suit. So, no weight and no air for a shallow 45 minute dive.
Greg Mossman - 12 Aug 2007 19:43 GMT > Well, I didn't read it that close but I rarely add air to my BC > especially when diving with my steel 119s. Heck, I don't even add > weight with a 3 mil full suit. So, no weight and no air for a shallow > 45 minute dive. I guess I'll have to see this. You descend from the surface after letting the air out of your BC, descend to 30', and are able to remain absolutely neutral at that depth for an hour without kicking and with normal breathing? I suppose I could manage the weight offset by retaining air in my lungs, but this habit leads to CO2 retention and it's far easier and safer to put a few puffs of air in my BC.
John Hanson - 12 Aug 2007 20:11 GMT >> Well, I didn't read it that close but I rarely add air to my BC >> especially when diving with my steel 119s. Heck, I don't even add [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >retaining air in my lungs, but this habit leads to CO2 retention and >it's far easier and safer to put a few puffs of air in my BC. 'tis true. That's in fresh water too. I don't know what the weighting would be in salt water but the dive I did on the Thunderbolt with a 108 had me way overweighted with 8 pounds of lead. I had to add a bunch of air on that dive...I hate that.
-hh - 14 Aug 2007 21:17 GMT > > [John wrote] > >> Well, I didn't read it that close but I rarely add air to my BC... I'll probably be guilty of this in a moment. :-)
> >I guess I'll have to see this. You descend from the surface after > >letting the air out of your BC, descend to 30', and are able to remain [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > with a 108 had me way overweighted with 8 pounds of lead. I had to > add a bunch of air on that dive...I hate that. I expect that what John's probably saying is that after the initial descent, he adds a squirt or two of air to become neutral at depth, and then doen't have to mess around with it after that.
The total net potential for the buoyancy change after this point would be the sum of air consumed and the change from the 'un-compression' of the wetsuit.
Simplistically, a tank of roughly 75-80 ft^3 capacity (eg, AL80 and cousins) will have around 5lbs of 'useful' air after we subtract off the reserve quantity (eg, 500psi reserve). With zero thermal protection, then the total buoyancy change is only 5lbs.
Add to this a generic medium weight wetsuit that very nominally takes 20lbs to sink from the surface, and assuming the normal banal linearity simplifying assumptions, its going to roughly have +5lbs of buoyancy at 66fsw< +10lbs at 33fsw and +13lbs at 15fsw. YMMV as to where you want to tune neutrality to, but suffice to say that between 15fsw and 66fsw, there's only an 8lb theoretical difference...and which is probably only around 5lbs in practice. Add the two together, and you're looking at needing +10lbs of lift in your BC at depth at the beginning of your dive.
As the dive progresses, this value will go down. First by the air consumed, then by the ascent-caused 'anti-compression' of the wetsuit.
To not have to vent your BC...well, I had a BC that had a slow leak like that too :-)
Overall, I don't think that we really conciously realize how much/ little that we touch our BC controls. Granted, for an experienced diver its probably not all that much, but what it comes down to is that we learn alternatives to the very obvious "hold hose overhead with left hand" FULL dump to get every penny out. Our action may very well be be a quick pull on a dump valve near our fanny while we're swimming along in a nose-down orientation and noticing that we're getting a bit floaty, a quick yank on the hose to active the shoulder dump, whatever.
As such, I'll not make the claim that I utterly don't touch the controls while at the helm ... I simply don't notice it anymore as part of my work taskloading. And that's probably a good thing overall, since afterall, the optimum should be expected to be frequent small tweaks needed, to keep yourself fully dialed in so that you minimize your effort spent resisting all variances from purely neutral buoyancy...
-hh
crownfield - 13 Aug 2007 19:14 GMT -On Aug 12, 10:41 am, John Hanson <jhan...@northernlinks.com> wrote: -> On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 10:20:17 -0700, Greg Mossman - -> I don't with aluminum when I'm at only 30 feet. I suppose I would -> have to add a little more weight if I were planning to dive for an -> hour and a half or more but for a typical 1 hour dive at 30 feet, you -> shouldn't need any air in your BC if properly weighted. - -There is no such thing as a "typical dive" and the original poster -mentioned establishing buoyancy at 30', then moving up and down the -water column. No one said anything about an hour at 30'. - -Like I said, bullshit.
at 30 ft, the wetsuit has lost lift 1 / (1+d/33) = 50% delta= 10 lb
how much does the al80 lift change at 30 ft and 60 min? 5 lbs? - -
Lee Bell - 13 Aug 2007 19:39 GMT > at 30 ft, the wetsuit has lost lift 1 / (1+d/33) = 50% > delta= 10 lb Yes and no. Assuming that the wetsuit material was perfectly neutral, which it's not, that would be true for gas in a perfectly elastic container, something the cells in a wetsuit are far from. Yes, a wetsuit loses lift. No, it's not 50%.
> how much does the al80 lift change at 30 ft and 60 min? 5 lbs? Depends on consumption. Figure something between 4 and 5 pounds. Interestingly, that's almost exactly the amount of weight I have to add when I wear my 3mm wetsuit.
Lee
crownfield - 14 Aug 2007 17:14 GMT -crownfield wrote - -> at 30 ft, the wetsuit has lost lift 1 / (1+d/33) = 50% -> delta= 10 lb - -Yes and no. Assuming that the wetsuit material was perfectly neutral, which -it's not, that would be true for gas in a perfectly elastic container, -something the cells in a wetsuit are far from. Yes, a wetsuit loses lift. -No, it's not 50%.
understood and agreed. - -> how much does the al80 lift change at 30 ft and 60 min? 5 lbs? - -Depends on consumption. Figure something between 4 and 5 pounds. -Interestingly, that's almost exactly the amount of weight I have to add when -I wear my 3mm wetsuit. - -Lee - - -
Greg Mossman - 13 Aug 2007 20:20 GMT > In article <1186941277.372693.242...@z24g2000prh.googlegroups.com>, > moss...@qnet.com says... [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > how much does the al80 lift change at 30 ft and 60 min? > 5 lbs? Which adds up to a 15 lb weight swing from beginning to end of dive. John must have some big lungs to be able to counter that with breathing alone. Either he's going to be way overweighted at the start, therefore kicking up to stay at 30' if he doesn't add air to the BC, or he's going to become an inflated balloon at the safety stop and pop to the surface unless he's kicking down.
The alternative, as another poster here suggested, is weighting yourself to be neutral at 30'. But if one is neutral with a compressed weightsuit and a full tank at 30', they'll be very buoyant with an empty tank trying to ascend slowly to the surface and hold a safety stop.
Besides, who dives at 30' anyway? That's snorkeling depth.
Lee Bell - 12 Aug 2007 13:24 GMT > Let's say you establish buoyancy at 30 feet. How far up or down can you > deviate from that 30 feet by swimming up or down without adding or [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Hope I explained this right. You did.
Your question can't be answered effectively. There are too many possible variables not known. The most significant of them is probably how much compressible gas you are carrying. This involves such things as what kind of thermal protection you're using - wetsuit, drysuit, nothing? If wetsuit, how thick, what material and how old all matter. Wetsuits compress and expand as depth changes, changing buoyancy as they do. The thicker they are, the more variation you're likely to experience. Different materials expand and compress at different rates and old material tends to compress quicker than new material. Of course the gas in a drysuit expands and contracts too, but not at the same rate as a wetsuit.
You do the best you can to get your weighting as "right" as possible, and then fine tune it from experience. When you've got it as correct as possible, you'll learn how changes in equipment and changes in depth affect your buoyancy by experience as well as how much buoyancy shift you can adjust for without adding or bleeding gas from your buoyancy control device.
I'm a warm water diver. I don't normally use thermal protection. I don't carry anything compressible. My only buoyancy issue is the gas I breathe during the dive. With one of my 80 cubic foot tanks, I start slightly heavy and end slightly light, but am never so far from neutral that I can't adjust simply by changing breathing patterns. As a result, I often do an entire dive without adding any gas at all to my BCD. Since I have nothing that compresses, I can move from the surface to any depth I like, without a significant shift in buoyancy. It's a very effortless way to dive. I don't do quite as well when using my 100 cubic foot tanks, but I come close. The 100s are a bit heavier at the beginning of the dive. They're not so heavy that I can't overcome their negative buoyancy by finning a bit, but if I want to maintain neutral buoyancy, I add a bit of gas at the beginning of the dive. While that gas is in my BC, I get a buoyancy shift as I change depth. Because I don't put much gas in my BC, the shift is small. When I've used enough gas to overcome the slightly lower buoyancy of the tanks, I let the gas out and I'm right back where I started with my 80s.
So, rather than suggest how much you can descend or ascend without changing the amount of gas in your tank, I suggest you concentrate on getting your weighting as close to perfect as possible. Spend the time to do a dive specifically to work on your weighting and it will pay off in all other dives. You're goal is the least amount of weight that will allow you to remain neutral a foot or two below the surface with your tank as empty as you normally expect it to get, with no gas in your BCD. When you've got your weight as close to perfect as possible, you'll have reduced the effect of depth changes as much as you can. From there, you learn to do what you have to to remain neutral by experience.
Good Luck.
Lee
Paul Foley - 12 Aug 2007 15:46 GMT > Let's say you establish buoyancy at 30 feet. How far up or down can you > deviate from that 30 feet by swimming up or down without adding or removing [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Sheldon It's not really a question that can be answered in the abstract. With my massive experience of 20 dives <g> I can tell you that it's a fun and useful skill to practice. I guarantee that at least once you'll find yourself inexplicably and uncontrollably drifting upward and/or headed for a hard landing in the sand.
Avoid the temptation to keep fiddling with your inflator and dump valves. Take a couple of minutes after you first descend to get your bouyancy in the sweet spot, and use your breathing as much as possible for fine tuning. If you find yourself breathing high to keep from sinking, it's time to add a little shot of air to your BC. When you're just sipping air to keep yourself from ascending, it's time to dump a little air.
Carrying as little weight as possible helps, for theoretical reasons that make my head hurt. But it's true. And inexplicably, after a few dives you'll need less weight. I needed 32 lbs for my checkout dives, now I'm down to 26 lbs. This may have something to do with carrying a ton of gear across rocky beaches, sweltering under the August sun wrestling into a 7mm jumpsuit, and the resultant loss of hard-won beer gut.
Timothy S. Ewing - 12 Aug 2007 19:43 GMT >> Let's say you establish buoyancy at 30 feet. How far up or down can >> you deviate from that 30 feet by swimming up or down without adding or [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >> >> Sheldon When I am not working, I do not dive with a BCD, I dive with a set of twin 38s a backpack and I am weighted for about 35'. This means that if I go much deeper than 35' I am slightly heavy, shallower, slightly light. I always tie to a mooring ball so that when I am doing my safety stop and am slightly light I have a line to hold on to. I have found that at least 50% of divers dive over weighted and 50% of them dive VERY overweighted.
Tim
 Signature Captain of the Kilauea Volcano Jumpers The Big Islands Firediving Team http://www.firediving.com
Sheldon - 12 Aug 2007 20:42 GMT >>> Let's say you establish buoyancy at 30 feet. How far up or down can you >>> deviate from that 30 feet by swimming up or down without adding or [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Tim Thanks all for the help. Taking all of the answers into account I think I get the idea, and I guess I'll have a better idea when I get into deeper water for my OW testing.
JOF - 12 Aug 2007 21:35 GMT > >>> Let's say you establish buoyancy at 30 feet. How far up or down can you > >>> deviate from that 30 feet by swimming up or down without adding or [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > get the idea, and I guess I'll have a better idea when I get into deeper > water for my OW testing.- I think this has already been said (sort of) but don't be disappointed on your first dives when you find you need more weight than an experienced diver who apparently should be using the same weight as you. Everyone I know started out needing extra weight but most of us got over that. I needed 33# on my belt for my first dives using a 7mm two piece, neo hood and gloves and 80al tanks. We did those dives in only 25ffw. After a bit of experience I was using 24# except for the one piece 7mm which wasn't as buoyant I suppose).
I'm relatively floaty. Of course hot air tends to be buoyant. My instructor told me I had to move something when we did the treading water test in the pool for our card. I couldn't just lay on the surface with my eyes closed. 8)
JF
Sheldon - 13 Aug 2007 00:35 GMT > I think this has already been said (sort of) but don't be disappointed > on your first dives when you find you need more weight than an [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > only 25ffw. After a bit of experience I was using 24# except for the > one piece 7mm which wasn't as buoyant I suppose). I think I was using 10lbs in the pool and was able to lie and kneel on the bottom at 12'. However, as soon as I started moving, in any direction, I kept floating back to the top.
> I'm relatively floaty. Of course hot air tends to be buoyant. My > instructor told me I had to move something when we did the treading > water test in the pool for our card. I couldn't just lay on the > surface with my eyes closed. 8) I tried the same thing, but I had to kick my feet a bit to stay up. I passed, but kept floating into the shallow section of the pool cuz I wasn't looking where I was going (on my back).
JOF - 13 Aug 2007 03:02 GMT >> I think this has already been said (sort of) but don't be disappointed >> on your first dives when you find you need more weight than an [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >bottom at 12'. However, as soon as I started moving, in any direction, I >kept floating back to the top. Was that in full 7mm skin?
JF
Sheldon - 13 Aug 2007 03:09 GMT >>> I think this has already been said (sort of) but don't be disappointed >>> on your first dives when you find you need more weight than an [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > JF 2mm Shorty. I would have died in a 7mm wet suit. It's a heated pool.
Don Gingrich - 13 Aug 2007 11:19 GMT > Let's say you establish buoyancy at 30 feet. How far up or down can > you deviate from that 30 feet by swimming up or down without adding [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Hope I explained this right. You have explained it right to the limits of your knowledge and experience.
I've read the other comments and I've got a couple of points to add.
1) in beginning courses, since the students are often waiting their turn to demonstrate skills, the instructors often intentionally overweight students by about 1-2 Kg (2-5 lbs) so they can stay firmly on the bottom.
2) The shallower you are on a dive, the more you will need to adjust the volume of air in your BC. (The percentage change in pressure from 15ft to 0ft (surface) is greater than the percent change from 15ft to 30ft and MUCH greater than the percent change from 45ft to 60ft(Assuming that you will be qualifying to the standard OW depth of 60ft/18M)
3) If you are overweighted, there will be a greater volume of gas in your BC that will be affected by the pressure change. Thus more need to adjust.
4) If you are diving in salt water, the change in pressure for a given change in depth is somewhat greater, but probably not enough to get too excited about. (Although the few times I have dived in fresh water with my standard kit, I've found myself leaving out 10-15% of the weight I'd use in salt water.
4) PADI says to adjust for neutral buoyancy at the start of a dive. I've always had a problem with this. The real "crunch" for buoyancy, IMHO, is at the end of the dive, when your cylinder is nearly empty and you need to hold a depth of 5 metres (15ft) for a safety stop.
I believe that the better solution is to adjust for neutral buoyancy at 5M with a nearly empty cylinder and no gas in your BC. (Sorry, I'm going to have to go metric here since metric is the units I learned to dive with. But a litre of air weighs 1.3 grams so a 12 litre cylinder at 240 bar (100CuFt) that has about 3000 litres of gas in it will will change weight by about 4 Kg or 9 lbs in the course of a dive. If you are precisely neutral at the start you will be positively buoyant at the safety stop. (OK you should not have an empty cylinder - but the closer you are to empty, the more buoyant you will be.) Some of this is compensated by compression of wet-suits, etc. But I would suggest that this is not enough.
But, at the start remember that most beginners are somewhat overweighted in any case and don't stress about it too much. You should be diving with an instructor and possibly also a divemaster who are likely to be carrying a bit of extra weight to be able to give some to a student who is having trouble on a safety stop. (I know when I'm diving around students I typically dive 2-4Kg overweight so I can help, if necessary.)
Finally, just to clarify, I typically dive temperate climate salt water (9-18 deg C 48-64 deg F) So I'm using a two piece 5mm wetsuit in summer and a dry suit in winter. Buoyancy control in a drysuit is slightly easier even though it is an extra airspace that expands and contracts with depth. (A drysuit has an automatic dump valve so that, in theory, it should be more or less constant volume on an ascent. On descent, I simply add enough gas to prevent a squeeze.)
-Don
Sheldon - 13 Aug 2007 18:36 GMT >> Let's say you establish buoyancy at 30 feet. How far up or down can >> you deviate from that 30 feet by swimming up or down without adding [quoted text clipped - 73 lines] > > -Don Thanks for the tips. So far I've only been down 12ft -- the depth of the pool. As I've already said, I can stay on the bottom and come up a bit, but I find myself making lots of adjustments to hover, and I seem to always want to rise to the surface. My OW testing will be in a crater, so if I am overweighted I can always drop my weights if I get into trouble, but I may have been underweighted for the total depth of the pool. Being a newbie my breathing may have kept pulling me to the surface.
I "think" I may be the only one qualifying, so my instructor will be my buddy and if anything is off he should be able to fix it without taking up any time. However, if there is a pretty girl in the class my breathing may get me into trouble again. :-)
Lee Bell - 13 Aug 2007 19:48 GMT > Thanks for the tips (From Don). So far I've only been down 12ft -- the > depth of the pool. As I've already said, I can stay on the bottom and > come up a bit, but I find myself making lots of adjustments to hover, and > I seem to always want to rise to the surface. True neutral buoyancy is an advanced skill. It takes time and practice to get it just right. Close is good enough.
> My OW testing will be in a crater, so if I am overweighted I can always > drop my weights if I get into trouble . . . Easy answer, don't get into trouble. Just so you know, it can be a really bad idea to simply dump your weights if in trouble. Generally speaking, it's a better idea to swim them up or, if you must, dump as little as possible to get you out of trouble. It's quite easy to go from very negative, to very positive. Be careful.
> . . . but I may have been underweighted for the total depth of the pool. > Being a newbie my breathing may have kept pulling me to the surface. You may have been underweighted. Being a newbie only means you can't adjust buoyancy as easily by changing breathing patterns as may eventually be possible. Your breathing doesn't exactly pull you to the surface, more like it doesn't let you keep from floating to the surface. I know it sounds the same, but it's not.
> I "think" I may be the only one qualifying, so my instructor will be my > buddy and if anything is off he should be able to fix it without taking up > any time. However, if there is a pretty girl in the class my breathing > may get me into trouble again. :-) The point of checkout dives is to give you an opportunity to show that you can dive without getting into trouble. If you need your instructor to fix anything, chances are, you've failed in your learning. That may or may not mean a failure in your certification, but it's not good.
As for pretty girls, I have two suggestions: 1. Pay attention to what you're doing. This is not the time for lusting after women, even pretty ones. 2. If you just dan't help yourself, control your breathing. You don't want to let her know just how easy it is to get you aroused.
Lee
Al Wells - 13 Aug 2007 20:08 GMT > As for pretty girls, I have two suggestions: > 1. Pay attention to what you're doing. This is not the time for lusting > after women, even pretty ones. > 2. If you just dan't help yourself, control your breathing. You don't want > to let her know just how easy it is to get you aroused. The pretty girls go for the instructor. Always.
Art Greenberg - 13 Aug 2007 21:07 GMT > In article <UH1wi.750$7e6.612@bignews4.bellsouth.net>, > pleebell@bellsouth.net says... [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > The pretty girls go for the instructor. Always. So Al, you are a bum _and_ a braggart! 8-)
 Signature Art Greenberg artg at eclipse dot net
Al Wells - 14 Aug 2007 11:31 GMT > > The pretty girls go for the instructor. Always. > > So Al, you are a bum _and_ a braggart! 8-) Some of us just have all of the luck ;-). The "being a bum" program is going well - I leave on Thursday for Brockville and the wrecks in the clear warm St Lawrence.
Art Greenberg - 14 Aug 2007 17:47 GMT > In article <13c1ef9sab6rha8@news.supernews.com>, none@none.invalid > says... [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > going well - I leave on Thursday for Brockville and the wrecks in the > clear warm St Lawrence. I wish I could join you, but work prevents it. Guess I should hang out with you to learn the fine art of bumness ....
Enjoy!
 Signature Art Greenberg artg at eclipse dot net
JOF - 16 Aug 2007 17:13 GMT >> As for pretty girls, I have two suggestions: >> 1. Pay attention to what you're doing. This is not the time for lusting [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >The pretty girls go for the instructor. Always. They know the instructors are easy.
JF
Chris Guynn - 13 Aug 2007 20:46 GMT > > Thanks for the tips (From Don). So far I've only been down 12ft -- the > > depth of the pool. As I've already said, I can stay on the bottom and [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > > Lee 1.) Be desireless. 2.) Be excellent. 3.) Be gone.
Compliments of "the Tao of Steve".
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