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Scuba Forum / General / August 2007Newbie - asking about where to price gear
Hey all, another dumb newbie type question here... Basically I started pricing out some scuba gear, pending the completion of my certification, I'll likely be purchasing my own kit...however when my instructor found out I was doing so online, his response was one of absolute horror...saying that while the prices are good, these are apparently "grey market" purchases, and won't be covered by warranty etc. Now I don't want to do anything stupid here, but being that the guy works at the shop he's telling me to go to, I need to ask: is this a valid statement? Are there online stores that ARE reliable? (I'd been looking at www.joediveramerica.com) Finally, I went in to check out some wetsuits, and they were hardcore pushing a henderson jumper, with the jacket that goes over it and over the legs (7mm) for around 289 dollars....unfortunately, without knowing the model, I'm having a hard time "comparison shopping"...any suggestions? Thanks gang, and I really do apologize for the dopey questions! Mitch (yes, the guy who was asking about divequest) >Hey all, another dumb newbie type question here... > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > >Mitch (yes, the guy who was asking about divequest) I also started buying gear on the net and found that there was issues with the quality and warenty. I went back to supporting my LDS by buying from them. You get to check the quality and I have found that if something breaks or malfunctions they replace it. This is really a hot topic and asking a dive shop instructor that probably gets a commission on all sales to "his" students won't give you an unbiased advise. I guess it really depends what you want and what kind of product you are buying. I have found that buying online can be 40% cheaper than at the local store, especially for things like BCDs and regulators. Warranty is generally not a problem (e.g. see 'Warranty Policy | LeisurePro.com' (http://www.leisurepro.com/Content/WarrantyPolicy.html)) What might be a problem is when you buy a dry suit or a wetsuit and don't know exactly which size you need, then buying at the local store can be the better choice. On the other hand most manufactures provide size charts and the price difference on a dry suit can easily be a few hundred dollars. Also buying things like weight or a tank online might not be a smart choice either. However there are also deals to be found at the local store and most stores will try to match online prices if you ask for it or throw in free goodies (like a free boat dive, free air refills or a free regulator revision etc) that might make it worth to pay a little bit more. Matthias  SignatureMatthias http://www.scubish.com > This is really a hot topic and asking a dive shop instructor that > probably gets a commission on all sales to "his" students won't give [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > -- > Matthiashttp://www.scubish.com Matthias, Thanks for the advice - I'll give that a try. Any suggestions as to what a good, entry level, 7mm wetsuit SHOULD cost? The shop told me I absolutely NEEDED a 7mm bib, with a 7mm jacket over it to provide enough warmth for diving in the northeast (mind you, I don't plan on doing winter dives)...and that little setup is around 289 bucks at the shop...while looking online I've found 7mms for half that...but again, I'm not sure what I really NEED as opposed to what the shop wants me to buy.... Mitch > > This is really a hot topic and asking a dive shop instructor that > > probably gets a commission on all sales to "his" students won't give [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > > - Show quoted text - For example, is there an advantage to buying the 300 dollar suit the local shop is offering (henderson 7mm), as compared to this: http://www.joediveramerica.com/page/JDA/PROD/wetmen/WS-01-BK- The suit appears to be configured almost identically to the one they showed me, the only diff being that I'm not sure how think this suit is when you have the farmer john and the shorty on over it... Any thoughts would be appreciated! Mitch > > > This is really a hot topic and asking a dive shop instructor that > > > probably gets a commission on all sales to "his" students won't give [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] > Any thoughts would be appreciated! > Mitch- Try the different suits on, especially with 7mm. They're all guaranteed to feel lousy at first, to make you feel like a robot or the Michelin Man, but some will feel less lousy than others. They feel different in the water, but generally relative to the feel in the shop. Perhaps someone here has experience with different manufacturers and price ranges as to the durability of the neoprene. It tends to break down from the repeated crushing at depth. Hopefully the more expensive suits offer more durability but I'm not certain that's always the case. I started with a one-piece 7mm Bare and used it for dives as cold as 41 degrees for 30 minutes or so at a time. The second dive on the coldest day was nasty though. All I could think about was getting back to the boat. My extremities were aching and I blew that dive off pretty quick. Didn't seem too smart to stay down at 85' seizing up from the cold. But otherwise the one piece was surprisingly effective and has stood up quite well. I loaned it to another rec.scuban a while back but I'm not sure how cold he's dived in it. The advantage of the two piece suits is that you've got the Farmer John for more temperate dives (without the jacket) or the jacket without the bottom etc. You can layer the one or the two piece suits if necessary. Bare makes a hooded pullover to go with my 7mm one piece. Probably the best advice is the same as for most gear - try a few things before you spend your money. Most shops offer rentals in suits, or you might get lucky and meet some friends who are willing to loan you stuff to start out. Divers tend to be pretty obliging people once you get to know 'em. JF JOF <jofrancis@gmail.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: :Try the different suits on, especially with 7mm. They're all :guaranteed to feel lousy at first, to make you feel like a robot or :the Michelin Man, but some will feel less lousy than others. They feel :different in the water, but generally relative to the feel in the :shop. <snip>: :Probably the best advice is the same as for most gear - try a few :things before you spend your money. Most shops offer rentals in suits, :or you might get lucky and meet some friends who are willing to loan :you stuff to start out. Divers tend to be pretty obliging people once :you get to know 'em. Sounds good in theory, but hardly practical in real life. It's not as if dive shops have a wide variety of rental wetsuit styles. Dan Bracuk Never use a big word when a diminutive one will do. > JOF <jofran...@gmail.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Sounds good in theory, but hardly practical in real life. It's not as > if dive shops have a wide variety of rental wetsuit styles. That's what friends are for. Beg, borrow, rent and/or steal. Eventually you'll find one that works and the best part is you've saved all that wear and tear on yer new suit. We have a shop in the London area that offer a pretty good selection of rental suits. JF >> JOF <jofran...@gmail.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: >> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > >JF I stand by my statement support your LDS >>> JOF <jofran...@gmail.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: >>> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >> > I stand by my statement support your LDS I'd say you need to keep your LDS aware you have other options. It -is- necessary to support the LDS, if yours is worth a damn (mine is), but it's not my job to put the guy's kids through college. I dive certain types of gear, some of which my shop doesn't have. I buy it on line, and, with the money I spend at the LDS, they get over it. OTOH, I have gone so far as to vary my kit (to what they sell) when the LDS is -paying- for the dive. I get that gear at a substantial discount, as much as 50%. I.e., I'll wear Jets in the pool or quarry, as opposed to Quatts. Also, this Big Habeeb seems to be getting less than stellar advice from his LDS. At last count, I dive 17 different brand names, which is the -very- best gear I can find for myself. I don't owe it to anybody to dive what I consider a lesser, and definitely more expensive, product, when on my own dime. On Aug 9, 8:22 pm, "Douglas W. \"Popeye\" Frederick" <Pop...@finalprotectivefire.com> wrote: > >>> JOF <jofran...@gmail.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: > [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Yeah, unfortunately the local dive shop seems to be motivated by profit, not by what will benefit a new diver. It's understandable, they do have a business to run. At the same time, I would have thought that dropping $325 for the class would have at least made them give pause before saying "Only buy from us, online is evil". Basically I've come to the following decision for myself.... After talking to a few people I went ahead and ordered a wetsuit online. With the amount I've saved on that, I will be able to float the price difference buying the other gear at my LDS without being angry or feeling like I got screwed. I mean, lets face it, I want a good reg, and one that I can get serviced easily...and if this is the LDS I'm hooking up with, I guess I need to play the game a little bit at least. I'm all for supporting local businesses, I just don't like being put into a position where, rightly or wrongly, I'm not being given any other option. My instructor telling me to ONLY buy from the shop, and the shop basically telling me that if I don't use scubapro I'll be unhappy... I worked at a paintball shop for several years, and while its a different industry, its a similar situation: a sport with a very distinct niche. There were paintball stores that worked the way this LDS does...sells only the items they want to, and don't support anything else. Then there were stores that would either get whatever you wanted, or find someplace that could. I guess it's the same for scuba. I don't know if their profit margin is just that much higher on scubapro, of if it really is THAT great a brand...and no offense, but its unfortunate that I need to come to a usenet group for advice, rather than being able to get an honest answer at the LDS. Mitch (a.k.a. Big Habeeb) > On Aug 9, 8:22 pm, "Douglas W. \"Popeye\" Frederick" > [quoted text clipped - 86 lines] > but its unfortunate that I need to come to a usenet group for advice, > rather than being able to get an honest answer at the LDS. Don't be too hard on your lds until you get to know them better. It would be a pita if they all shut down - no place to get fills, to see gear, to inspect your tanks, to provide rentals, to get repairs if you can't do your own, to get parts if you can, to have someone you can actually trust to be honest (even if motivated by money), etc. Besides, my dealer's shop is always a good stop if I just want to hang out, handle some new gear and talk for a while. Any kind of retailer generally can't or won't try to sell every product line available, and scuba dealers are no exception. There's lots of reasons for that - territory protection, volume requirements, service training and space/inventory costs. Scuba Pro is a very good name, one of the best. Some would argue that the product is over-engineered and overly complicated and therefore over-spendy, but certainly one of the top names in regs. And don't underestimate the quality of the advice you get here. Some of these guys are as knowledgeable as any pro you'll meet. I learned more about scuba from these characters than from all the folks in Canada I've ever dived with put together. In fact, many of our posters work as instructors, or should. And though the advice you get here may not always be what you want to hear, it's honest, albeit a tad blunt at times. That's not to say everyone here should be listened to, but certainly the folks who've joined the thread so far aren't going to lead you astray. JF > After talking to a few people I went ahead and ordered a wetsuit > online. Not a problem as long as you know the brand, size, etc. that's right for you. > With the amount I've saved on that, I will be able to float > the price difference buying the other gear at my LDS without being > angry or feeling like I got screwed. I mean, lets face it, I want a > good reg, and one that I can get serviced easily...and if this is the > LDS I'm hooking up with, I guess I need to play the game a little bit > at least. You don't need to play the game at all. Buy your small and spur of the moment stuff from them or anything you can't get cheaper somewhere else. Buy your mask from them for sure. You have to try masks on to get one that fits right. If you're going to get your servicing from your local shop, the one thing you do want to do is choose equipment that has to be serviced from the brands the local shop will service. It's a pain in the rear to have a regulator that can't be serviced locally. I have one that can only be serviced in Australia. It's along story about how I got it, but the result is, it's never been serviced. It's also no longer used. > I'm all for supporting local businesses, I just don't like > being put into a position where, rightly or wrongly, I'm not being > given any other option. My instructor telling me to ONLY buy from the > shop, and the shop basically telling me that if I don't use scubapro > I'll be unhappy... I can tell you that you are unlikely to be unhappy if you buy Scuba Pro, but it's not the only regulator on the market that you'll like. I favor Scuba Pro, US Divers, Apeks, and Atomic. I specifically do not like Oceanic regulators. I've had problems with them in the past. I do, however, like their computers. >...and no offense, > but its unfortunate that I need to come to a usenet group for advice, > rather than being able to get an honest answer at the LDS. No offense taken. As it happens, this group includes some divers with a great deal of experience in pretty much every kind of diving you're likely to encounter, from recreational to highly technical. I've never encountered a dive shop that could come close to the diversity of knowledge and experience available here, but over the years, I've found quite a few that are honest with their customers. Unless the shop you're using is the only one available to you, I think I'd look around for another shop while looking around for equipment that best suits you. Lee In rec.scuba, Big Habeeb had the audacity to say that: > On Aug 9, 8:22 pm, "Douglas W. \"Popeye\" Frederick" ><Pop...@finalprotectivefire.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 84 lines] > > Mitch (a.k.a. Big Habeeb) When i first got into divin, I went with what the LDS suggested (all fairly expensive high markup items). I'm glad I did, because the high quality of the gear certainly saved me much grief, and I still have the same pair of booties I bought from them. In diving, it's best to get the highest quality you can afford. *R* *H* SignatureIf only one of Charles Chaplin's films could be preserved, ``City Lights'' (1931) would come the closest to representing all the different notes of his genius. -Roger Ebert > In diving, it's best to get the highest quality > you can afford. I'm sure your LDS *really* likes you... <snicker> > When i first got into divin, I went with what the LDS suggested (all > fairly [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > quality > you can afford. Most of my original purchases have been traded in as unsatisfactory for my use. Still have my original regs, the first stage is used for stage bottles, the primary second stage gets occasional OW usage, and the "octo" reg is never used, soon to be ditched. Booties, on my third set, mine get far more usage than most, they are my primary footwear for many non-diving hours and much walking. Last pair bought from someone who fully understood what I needed, lasting much longer than the earlier ones. I now only buy anything new from places that know my needs, not their sales needs. Curtis > In rec.scuba, Big Habeeb had the audacity to say that: > When i first got into divin, I went with what the LDS suggested (all > fairly [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > quality > you can afford. That might be a default truism for someone who doesn't have the experience at the time to decide. But price has nothing to do with quality. The last pair of Quattro fins I bought were $54, and for a year or more, my primary mask was a $15 Wal-mart special. My first BC was less than $300 new, and lasted 400 dives. The wing off of it lasted 1000. > In rec.scuba, Big Habeeb had the audacity to say that: > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > booties I bought from them. In diving, it's best to get the highest quality > you can afford. I went middle of the road, never had any grief. I'm still diving the same regs. The only reason I'm getting new ones is because I want new regs. I bought a new BCD last year, because I wanted a new BCD. I miss the pockets on my old one. My fins were crap and so I replaced them much sooner. I still dive the same mask. OK, that's not entirely true. My original mask is now my backup mask. After purchasing and trying other higher end masks, I've gone back to the original brand type. I wore the same booties until they fell apart. I'm still diving my $100 wetsuit. It never did fit that well but it does the job. When friends have teased me in the past about how none of my gear matches (or is color co-ordinated), I always reply the same way "I came to dive, not to be in a fashion show". > > In rec.scuba, Big Habeeb had the audacity to say that: > > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > (or is color co-ordinated), I always reply the same way "I came to dive, > not to be in a fashion show". tsk, tsk. Something's not worth doing if it's not worth looking good while doing it. :-) > > > In rec.scuba, Big Habeeb had the audacity to say that: > [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > Something's not worth doing if it's not worth looking good while doing it. No point in gilding the lily. JF > > > > In rec.scuba, Big Habeeb had the audacity to say that: > > [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > > JF I agree, but what's the point in painting it black? >> No point in gilding the lily. >> >> JF > >I agree, but what's the point in painting it black? You can never go wrong with black. It's fashion safe. JF JOF <jofrancis@gmail.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: :You can never go wrong with black. It's fashion safe. Personally I prefer the presence of colours, not the absence. Dan Bracuk Never use a big word when a diminutive one will do. >JOF <jofrancis@gmail.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: >:You can never go wrong with black. It's fashion safe. > >Personally I prefer the presence of colours, not the absence. But yer not a fashion victim. JF > JOF <jofrancis@gmail.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: > :You can never go wrong with black. It's fashion safe. > > Personally I prefer the presence of colours, not the absence. I have colors . . just nothing co-ordinated. > JOF <jofrancis@gmail.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: > :You can never go wrong with black. It's fashion safe. > > Personally I prefer the presence of colours, not the absence. Then you must love black, seeing as how it's the presence of all colors (we are, after all, speaking of pigments). > > JOF <jofran...@gmail.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: > > :You can never go wrong with black. It's fashion safe. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Then you must love black, seeing as how it's the presence of all colors (we > are, after all, speaking of pigments). I always thought black was an absence of colour, or at least an absence of light and therefore colour, unless we are speaking existentially. JF > > > JOF <jofran...@gmail.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: > > > :You can never go wrong with black. It's fashion safe. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > JF To produce black (when speaking of light), you remove all colors. To produce black (when speaking of pigment), you include all colors. > > > "Dan Bracuk" <NOTbra...@pathcom.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > To produce black (when speaking of pigment), you include all colors.- Scuba body painting? JF >> Personally I prefer the presence of colours, not the absence. > > Then you must love black, seeing as how it's the presence of all colors > (we > are, after all, speaking of pigments). You see reflected light and black reflects no light. It's not the presence of all colors, that's white. It's the lack of all colors. > >> Personally I prefer the presence of colours, not the absence. > > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > You see reflected light and black reflects no light. It's not the presence > of all colors, that's white. It's the lack of all colors. When speaking of pigments, how do you produce black? >> You see reflected light and black reflects no light. It's not the >> presence >> of all colors, that's white. It's the lack of all colors. > When speaking of pigments, how do you produce black? You combine things until they reflect no colors. Each of the primary colors reflects the color you see and does not reflect those colors you do not see. You combine them until they reflect no color. If you want to be picky about it, you've come to the right place. Let the nit picking begin. If you have pigment that appears to be yellow, it isn't. It's red and blue. If you have pigment that appears to be blue, it isn't. It's yellow and red. If you have pigment that appears to be red, it isn't. It's red and blue. You can't have it both ways. If something that reflects no color, in other words appears black, is all colors, then the pigments you are combining, and calling red, yellow and blue, aren't red, yellow, and blue at all. They are the colors they don't reflect. Damn, I know what I'm talking about and that doesn't sound right even to me. Since we're talking about colors we see, best stick with a single convention. Black is the absence of color. Don't believe it, turn out the lights and tell me what color you see. Lee > >> You see reflected light and black reflects no light. It's not the > >> presence [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > convention. Black is the absence of color. Don't believe it, turn out the > lights and tell me what color you see. Shades of colour wheels. This is bringing back less than fond memories of Fine Arts 101 (or whatever the hell it was called). I'm also imagining how chilly might react to Chris suggesting body paint for diving. 8) JF > >> You see reflected light and black reflects no light. It's not the > >> presence [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > reflects the color you see and does not reflect those colors you do not see. > You combine them until they reflect no color. Correct. So the item itself is every color. Thus, it reflects none of them and "appears" black. How much more colorful can you get than "every color"? "Chris Guynn" <chris.guynn@gamil.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: :Then you must love black, seeing as how it's the presence of all colors (we :are, after all, speaking of pigments). Actually, white is the presence of all colours. Dan Bracuk Never use a big word when a diminutive one will do. > "Chris Guynn" <chris.guynn@gamil.com> pounded away at his keyboard > resulting in: [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Actually, white is the presence of all colours. In terms of light, yes, but not in terms of pigment. When you see a blue pigment, the pigment itself is actually orange (the opposite of blue on the color wheel). This means that the pigment absorbs red and yellow and reflects blue (the color you see). If there is no pigment, the item is white (it reflects all colors). If the pigment has all colors, it is black (it absorbs all colors). Thus, if you see an item that is black, that item actually consists of every color (as a pigment). > > "Chris Guynn" <chris.gu...@gamil.com> pounded away at his keyboard > > resulting in: [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > colors, it is black (it absorbs all colors). Thus, if you see an item that > is black, that item actually consists of every color (as a pigment). I think you're wrong on this one. Colours are the result of how light is reflected by an object. Without light there are no colours, like sound in an absolute vacuum, just characteristics that when subjected to light reflect certain components of the light to appear as colours to the human eye. Here's a quote from wikipedia that explains it pretty well. "Scientifically, black is not a hue (color); a black object absorbs all the colors of the visible spectrum and reflects none of them. This is sometimes confused with black being called 'a mixture of all colors', but that is not the case. In fact, an object emitting or reflecting all colors is perceived as white. Sometimes black is described as an "achromatic color"; in practice, black can be considered a color, e.g., the black cat or black paint." It's confusing because we need to have black colourizing materials at times - paint, computer colours etc - and these are created by mixing various coloured filters to get a black result. This is necessary because we need to cover the colour of whatever medium we are decorating as we can't simply make the material cease to exist in the right places. The black effect is basically just the use of enough colour absorbing characteristics to prevent all colours from reflecting to the viewer's eye. So black isn't really a colour, just an absence of reflection. It's an interesting concept, and confusing. JF > > > "Chris Guynn" <chris.gu...@gamil.com> pounded away at his keyboard > > > resulting in: [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > times - paint, computer colours etc - and these are created by mixing > various coloured filters to get a black result. So, you mix a bunch of colors together to get black (a "black filter"), but black (pigment) isn't comprised of all the colors? Sounds like someone is confused. I'm not sure if it's the author or me though. Here's what I know: If you're painting and you run out of black paint, you can approximate black by mixing other colors (equal parts of the three primary colors: red, blue, and yellow). > This is necessary > because we need to cover the colour of whatever medium we are [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > JF > So, you mix a bunch of colors together to get black (a "black filter"), > but > black (pigment) isn't comprised of all the colors? Color is what the eye perceives and black is not all of the colors, white is. > > So, you mix a bunch of colors together to get black (a "black filter"), > > but > > black (pigment) isn't comprised of all the colors? > > Color is what the eye perceives and black is not all of the colors, white > is. Here we go with all of that existentialism (or lack thereof) again. The fact remains that if you mix red, blue, and yellow pigments, you get a black pigment as a result. My eye perceived blue, red, and yellow pigments being combined to form a black pigment. If that isn't all of the colors being used to form black, then I give up. If it is, then black (pigment) is comprised of all of the colors. > If that isn't all of the colors being used to form black, then I give up. > If it is, then black (pigment) is comprised of all of the colors. It isn't. Give up. That think up in the sky during the day, that has all the colors, and none of them are black. > > If that isn't all of the colors being used to form black, then I give up. > > If it is, then black (pigment) is comprised of all of the colors. > > It isn't. Give up. I have. > That think up in the sky during the day, that has all the colors, and none > of them are black. You mean this thing? http://tinyurl.com/yuorza ;-) - I see lots of black. Or are you talking this thing? http://tinyurl.com/2x9nrh - mostly I see yellow and orange. Or are you talking more existentially and referring to this thing? http://tinyurl.com/3bnlzx - There's lots of blue here Sometimes, when someone is vague, it's meaningful. Othertimes, it's just confusing. I'm not sure which case this is which means it's probably the latter (at least, in my case). >> It isn't. Give up. > I have. Me too. It was fun while it lasted. I needed the break. I have tons and tons of data, all corrupted, and all quite necessary for a report I'm going to have to give in the next month or so. I was posting between downloads. Lee >>>"Chris Guynn" <chris.gu...@gamil.com> pounded away at his keyboard >>>resulting in: [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > > JF Reflected light is not the only light we see. Looking at the sun, e.g., or looking through a piece of beer bottle at a light source. Then there's the vibrant blue waves I see when I close my eyes in a dark room. Color is just signals from the rods and cones in our retinas, black is what we call the absence of stimulation. Train yer brain to interpret these signals in ways other than what you inherited, and you can get music from yer eyes. > Color is just signals from the rods and cones in our retinas, black is > what we call the absence of stimulation. Train yer brain to interpret > these signals in ways other than what you inherited, and you can get > music from yer eyes. Sounds like you've retrained yourself to be able to detect the presence of darkatrons. What most people perceive as light...is merely the absence of darkatrons...photons don't really exist: that's all a conspiracy from the college of physics. -hh > Color is just signals from the rods and cones in our retinas, black is > what we call the absence of stimulation. Train yer brain to interpret > these signals in ways other than what you inherited, and you can get music > from yer eyes. Only with some very powerful drugs. Lee >>Color is just signals from the rods and cones in our retinas, black is >>what we call the absence of stimulation. Train yer brain to interpret [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Lee helps in the early stages of training. >> Actually, white is the presence of all colours. > > In terms of light, yes, but not in terms of pigment. You don't see pigment, you see light. > >> Actually, white is the presence of all colours. > > > > In terms of light, yes, but not in terms of pigment. > > You don't see pigment, you see light. That's awfully existential... Or, maybe, it's not existential enough? In rec.scuba, JOF had the audacity to say that: >> JOF <jofran...@gmail.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: >> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > JF Also, consider the zipper. Front zippers make the suit a bit easier to don yourself. As I usu dive solo I look for a front zipper. A builtin hood offers better warmth than a separate. A good pair of booties and gloves can make a big difference. Let us know what you get.... *R* *H* SignatureIf only one of Charles Chaplin's films could be preserved, ``City Lights'' (1931) would come the closest to representing all the different notes of his genius. -Roger Ebert Rockinghorse Winner <rockinghorse@deadtime.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: :Also, consider the zipper. Front zippers make the suit a bit easier to don :yourself. As I usu dive solo I look for a front zipper. A builtin hood :offers better warmth than a separate. A good pair of booties and gloves can :make a big difference. Let us know what you get.... On a wetsuit? I found that front zipper wetsuits are harder to get on and off at the shoulders. Dan Bracuk Never use a big word when a diminutive one will do. > On a wetsuit? I found that front zipper wetsuits are harder to get on > and off at the shoulders. Probably depends upon the person and the wetsuit... I have one of the slick interior skin FJ wetsuits and I don't find it that difficult to put the shoulders on... Thanks to various broken bones over the years, reaching around to zip up a back zip wetsuit is not that easy for me... Big Habeeb <mitch.brenner@gmail.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: :Matthias, :Thanks for the advice - I'll give that a try. Any suggestions as to [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] :to buy.... :Mitch Bad news. Trial and error is the only way to find out. Dan Bracuk Never use a big word when a diminutive one will do. > Thanks for the advice - I'll give that a try. Any suggestions as to > what a good, entry level, 7mm wetsuit SHOULD cost? The shop told me I [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I'm not sure what I really NEED as opposed to what the shop wants me > to buy.... If you get too warm, you can always let in a bit of water to cool off... It doesn't quite work that well the other way around though... Remember that neoprene compresses, so even if the water is the same temperature throughout the water column, you're going to feel cooler the deeper you go since the neoprene is going to be thinner... From what I understand, the Rubatex neoprene is the best one to get, but it is a bit more expensive... http://www.wetwear.com/rubatex.htm I seriously doubt that the dive shop's wetsuit is Rubatex though... I own a Harvey's wetsuit and I've been pretty satisfied with it... They make a 7mm one and it is $275 at LeisurePro... http://www.leisurepro.com/Prod/CategoryID_982/Context_980/Sort_Stock/DescSort_0/ Filter_2%3d227%3a3%3d232%3a1%3d475%3a4%3d243/HRVMM7.html?Hit=1 > The shop told me I > absolutely NEEDED a 7mm bib, with a 7mm jacket over it to provide [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > to buy.... > Mitch What you really need is a wetsuit that fits. A mail order suit that feels comfortable on dry land is not the right fit. Newbies like us need an experienced guide. This is where your local shop is invaluable. Ditto their advice on the kind of gear needed for your area. Yeah, you can save money buying online. But advice and experience are worth something... don't leave that out of the equation. And remember, you're not going to be able to get air fills online after your local shop goes belly up. >> This is really a hot topic and asking a dive shop instructor that >> probably gets a commission on all sales to "his" students won't give [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > to buy.... > Mitch You really need to buy things that need to fit like a wetsuit, boots, fins and mask at a dive shop. Unless you can just do the fitting at a LDS and then buy the identical item online. And yes to dive in cold water you do need the maximum wet suit. Adam > Hey all, another dumb newbie type question here... Not a dumb question at all. > Basically I started pricing out some scuba gear, pending the > completion of my certification, I'll likely be purchasing my own > kit...however when my instructor found out I was doing so online, his > response was one of absolute horror...saying that while the prices are > good, these are apparently "grey market" purchases, and won't be > covered by warranty etc. Sometimes you get factory warranty coverage, sometimes you don't. Sometimes if you don't get factory warranty, you get something similar from the unauthorized seller. Not all on line sellers are unauthorized. The warrenty issue is not to be completely ignored, but it's largely an excuse by those that won't, or can't, lower their prices, to try and keep customers that would, otherwise, go elsewhere. > Are there online stores that ARE reliable? (I'd been looking at > www.joediveramerica.com). leisurepro.com has a good reputation and diversdirect.com is both an on line and a brick and mortar shop. Leisure Pro warrantys equipment they sell if the manufacturer won't. Divers Direct is an authorized dealer for whatever they sell. > Finally, I went in to check out some wetsuits, and they were hardcore > pushing a henderson jumper, with the jacket that goes over > it and over the legs (7mm) for around 289 dollars....unfortunately, > without knowing the model, I'm having a hard time comparison > shopping"...any suggestions? For just about any equipment you're considering buying, rent first. Figure out exactly what you want and then shop around for it. Sometimes a local shop will offer a good deal, sometimes an on line seller will. Don't forget to factor, shipping and any warranty issues into the on line offer or state and local taxes into the local one. Lee > Hey all, another dumb newbie type question here... > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Mitch (yes, the guy who was asking about divequest) It's like buying anything else. Some things are great to buy online, others are not. Things like wetsuits, drysuits and hoods really need to fit right, and that's where a good dive shop can help and make you a lot happier when you get to where you are going. Often, many dive shops will recommend you rent first then consider buying. It all depends on how much you dive and how much stuff you want to schlep with you when you go. Only you can tell if your dive shop is looking after your best interests or just wants to make a sale. I can go into my local dive shop and try on a dozen masks and pick the one I like best, and get advice from the shop. It often costs me only a little more than over the Net, no shipping charges and I don't have to worry about sending the thing back if it doesn't fit right. Other things, like a dive watch or a computer, can be ordered on the Net and save you a bundle. I try to stick with my dive shop, but I've also had good luck with www.scubatoys.com And, as someone else posted, don't be afraid to haggle a bit with the shop. Remember, many shops that sell at a discount over the Net are somebody else's local dive shop. Excellent idea. I did go ahead and buy the wetsuit online, using the sizing info I found on the net, and the suit fits perfectly...so alls well that ends well on that. When/if I DO decide to purchase reg, BCD etc, that will all be done at the local shop. I have no problem paying a little more for items of that nature, I just don't like feeling like I'm being screwed...and when I find an almost identical item and half the cost (one where warranty WONT impact me), I feel like I'm being screwed. It's hard for me, as a new diver, to really assess what prices are...I don't have enough familiarity with the equipment, or with what makes a good reg versus what makes a crappy reg...but I'm guessing that will come more with practice and experience. I am going to the LDS tonight to buy weights and pick up my rental gear for my cert dives this weekend and am absolutely terrified!!! Mitch > > Hey all, another dumb newbie type question here... > [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > > - Show quoted text - > Excellent idea. I did go ahead and buy the wetsuit online, using the > sizing info I found on the net, and the suit fits perfectly...so alls [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > to buy weights and pick up my rental gear for my cert dives this > weekend and am absolutely terrified!!! A little nervousness is natural, and good. If you said you had absolutely no qualms about swimming with the fishies some/most would say you were perhaps an accident waiting to happen. A healthy amount of fear makes one more cautious, and cautious is good when you're tricking Mother Nature. Just be methodical with everything and you'll be pleasantly surprised at how well it all works out. I think I've said this before but I was scared stiff the first time I rolled off a perfectly good boat with a tank on my back. The fear went away as soon as I looked down and saw the reef 20' below me. Then I really had to concentrate on thinking about how to dive and not just admire the reef and the fish. Surprising how well everything comes together and no emergencies arise. Remember, they're called emergencies because they're unlikely events. You'll relax and have fun when you hit the water. JF In rec.scuba, JOF had the audacity to say that: >> Excellent idea. I did go ahead and buy the wetsuit online, using the >> sizing info I found on the net, and the suit fits perfectly...so alls [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > JF My first checkout dive was in the choppy waters of the Channel Is's and I was so nervous, I threw up into my reg!. If you feel like you have to upchuck at depth, just do it. You'll feel better almost immediately. And dont' neglect to clear the reg before you breathe it.... *R* *H* SignatureIf only one of Charles Chaplin's films could be preserved, ``City Lights'' (1931) would come the closest to representing all the different notes of his genius. -Roger Ebert Rockinghorse Winner <rockinghorse@deadtime.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: :My first checkout dive was in the choppy waters of the Channel Is's and I :was so nervous, I threw up into my reg!. If you feel like you have to :upchuck at depth, just do it. You'll feel better almost immediately. And :dont' neglect to clear the reg before you breathe it.... The only time I puked underwater, I took the reg out. Dan Bracuk Never use a big word when a diminutive one will do. In rec.scuba, Big Habeeb had the audacity to say that: > Hey all, another dumb newbie type question here... > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Mitch (yes, the guy who was asking about divequest) Dive equip is one of the areas where it makes sense to avoid the online shops and use the LDS (unless you live in the boonies and there are no LDS's around). The support and warranty service more than make up for any premium you might pay. *R* *H* SignatureIf only one of Charles Chaplin's films could be preserved, ``City Lights'' (1931) would come the closest to representing all the different notes of his genius. -Roger Ebert |
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