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Scuba Forum / General / August 2007Coldest dive. How cold?
This is more or less a test of using google to post to newsgroups. My ISP decided to disable usenet postings, allowing reading only. So, staying on topic: What's the coldest water you've all been diving in? Me - In early Feb. my father accidently pulled the cage into the propeller. I had to see how bad the damage was and if he had to be towed to the boat shop pull out. The water temp was 29.5 F and the air temp was 17.5 F. Salt water, 6mm dry, about 40 minutes in the water. 6 ft. deep max. dmswaine@gmail.com pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: :This is more or less a test of using google to post to newsgroups. My :ISP decided to disable usenet postings, allowing reading only. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] :The water temp was 29.5 F and the air temp was 17.5 F. :Salt water, 6mm dry, about 40 minutes in the water. 6 ft. deep max. Bay of Fundy, March 1993, 31 F 6mm rented wetsuit. Did 4 dives in one weekend. Did not get cold. Dan Bracuk Never use a big word when a diminutive one will do. > dmswa...@gmail.com pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: > : [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Bay of Fundy, March 1993, 31 F > 6mm rented wetsuit. Did 4 dives in one weekend. Did not get cold. Willow Springs, PA; Spring 1983. <38F, tired 1/4" Farmer John. Water stung & was numbingly cold, so only did two tanks before heading home. -hh > So, staying on topic: > > What's the coldest water you've all been diving in? 61 deg F, NC mountain stream, Aug of '03, .5 mil dive skin. Buddy wore a tee-shirt & a big smile. >> So, staying on topic: >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Buddy wore a tee-shirt & a big smile. :-) 48 degrees at 84 ft, .5 skin, 48 minutes.  Signature"I wasn't going to get into any of this until later, but you asked a reasonable question. The problem for me in answering is that I'm theorizing with more intuited logic than facts." -JOF Popeye/ www.finalprotectivefire.com >> 61 deg F, NC mountain stream, Aug of '03, .5 mil dive skin. >> >> Buddy wore a tee-shirt & a big smile. > :-) > > 48 degrees at 84 ft, .5 skin, 48 minutes. Notice everyone else is talking 6-7 mil or dry? Bet I'll see colder than 61 in a quarry, may have to go 3 mil. :-) Curtis > >> 61 deg F, NC mountain stream, Aug of '03, .5 mil dive skin. > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Bet I'll see colder than 61 in a quarry, may have to go 3 mil. :-) As my Mom used to say to me when I'd try to leave the house underclothed for the weather "No sense, no feeling.". JF On Tue, 24 Jul 2007 05:23:32 -0400, "Douglas W. \"Popeye\" Frederick" <Popeye@finalprotectivefire.com> wrote: > 48 degrees at 84 ft, .5 skin, 48 minutes. And how long did it take for your 'nads to drop down from your throat afterwards? >> So, staying on topic: >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Buddy wore a tee-shirt & a big smile. He? That wasn't a smile, that was his balls pushing his cheeks out. She? I'd be the one smiling. Signaturedillon Broadway Photo sucks. Ask me why. > This is more or less a test of using google to post to newsgroups. My > ISP decided to disable usenet postings, allowing reading only. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > The water temp was 29.5 F and the air temp was 17.5 F. > Salt water, 6mm dry, about 40 minutes in the water. 6 ft. deep max. 43 F and the air tempwas in the high 30s. drysuit. 2 dives of about 40 mins or so, 40 ft max. Dennis Various springs around central Florida, between 68 and 72 F depending on whose gauges you believe. The rest of you are nuts, just plain nuts. Lee > The rest of you are nuts, just plain nuts. Temperature is merely one measure of adversity. Visibility is another. Overall, it's merely symptoms of wanting to get in the water, even under less-than-ideal conditions. The question as to who is "nuts" really comes down to a different question, which essentially asks how frequently they'll accept adverse (cold, viz, etc) conditions. Don't get worried until you find the guy who doesn't think he's having fun unless he's in thermal misery and can't see a thing. And of course, there are tributes...the CRAPPY DIVE SITE page has been resurrected: http://www.descentline.com/crappy%20dive%20site%20homepage.htm FWIW, here's the CDS description for the place that I did our almost- ice dive in. Reason for going that early in the season is explained in the second line (Viz): Willow Springs Quarry , Willow Springs, PA Viz: Tinted Glass (Soup if lots of divers are in the water or the algae is blooming) Temp: Room Temp (winter) to Just Right (spring-summer) Cool Stuff to See: Steam Shovel, RR Tracks, 70' yacht, underwater tank (complete with stale air), boats, cars, and of course cinder blocks. Wildlife: Open Water trainees, eels, suckers, catfish, and perch. Wow, what variety! Accessibility: State Highway - Turn left at the Texaco (1/2 mile S of PA route 422, 3 miles E of Myerstown) But watch out for the Amish horse and buggies. Primary Features: the steam shovel, the yacht, and some guys that show up on holidays and let you try old style hardhat dive gear. Overall Rating: Half Boss. -hh > Various springs around central Florida, between 68 and 72 F depending on > whose gauges you believe. > > The rest of you are nuts, just plain nuts. Hey, we ha the quarry to ourselves that day... :-) Dennis On Jul 23, 6:16 pm, dmswa...@gmail.com wrote: > This is more or less a test of using google to post to newsgroups. My > ISP decided to disable usenet postings, allowing reading only. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > The water temp was 29.5 F and the air temp was 17.5 F. > Salt water, 6mm dry, about 40 minutes in the water. 6 ft. deep max. I dunno temp off the top of my head but from time to time we dove fresh water under ice when I lived in the midwest. It was generally coldest at the top right beneath the ice. I did this in a 7 mm farmer jane a few times, then I saw some guy in a drysuit and went - hey! What is that thing and where can I get one? 1990 or so, maybe? * * > On Jul 23, 6:16 pm, dmswa...@gmail.com wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > jane a few times, then I saw some guy in a drysuit and went - hey! > What is that thing and where can I get one? 1990 or so, maybe? That dive we did in Indiana was pretty darned cold, very close to freezing point as I remember. Seems to me you didn't hang around too long in the water that day, blamed us for abandoning you or some such silliness. My neck seal leaked and I damned near froze getting out of my gear afterwards. There were a couple of guys diving wet that day, crazy bastards. We've had pretty cold water on some of the St.Paddy's Day dives at Gilboa. Temps were in the low 30's then and that was without even going down to the tubes. JF > > On Jul 23, 6:16 pm, dmswa...@gmail.com wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > my gear afterwards. There were a couple of guys diving wet that day, > crazy bastards. I do recall calling that dive after about 2 minutes, but I don't remember why, now......... damn, I must be getting old. > We've had pretty cold water on some of the St.Paddy's Day dives at > Gilboa. Temps were in the low 30's then and that was without even > going down to the tubes. It only seems cold when you are diving in shamrock-print pajamas instead of your drysuit. * > JF > > > On Jul 23, 6:16 pm, dmswa...@gmail.com wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > It only seems cold when you are diving in shamrock-print pajamas > instead of your drysuit. I forgot about that day. I wondered why the guy was taking pics of me. JF > > > > On Jul 23, 6:16 pm, dmswa...@gmail.com wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > > JF As I recall, someone had posted a shot somewhere. WHere did that website go, anyway....... * > > > > > On Jul 23, 6:16 pm, dmswa...@gmail.com wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > As I recall, someone had posted a shot somewhere. WHere did that > website go, anyway....... I don't remember ever seeing it but the guy said he was gonna post it. JF >This is more or less a test of using google to post to newsgroups. My >ISP decided to disable usenet postings, allowing reading only. > >So, staying on topic: > >What's the coldest water you've all been diving in? Dutch Springs, PA, 41°F in a DUI FLX450 Drysuit. ____________________________________________ Regards, Arnold > What's the coldest water you've all been diving in? > The water temp was 29.5 F and the air temp was 17.5 F. > Salt water, 6mm dry, about 40 minutes in the water. 6 ft. deep max. 2°C. Baikal and a local barrage. GNT Neopren drysuit, hood and gloves and Weezle Extreme+. Cozy. Matthias > This is more or less a test of using google to post to newsgroups. My > ISP decided to disable usenet postings, allowing reading only. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > The water temp was 29.5 F and the air temp was 17.5 F. > Salt water, 6mm dry, about 40 minutes in the water. 6 ft. deep max. 36f on the surface, 44 on the bottom and we surfaced through 6 inches of fresh snow. > This is more or less a test of using google to post to newsgroups. My > ISP decided to disable usenet postings, allowing reading only. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > The water temp was 29.5 F and the air temp was 17.5 F. > Salt water, 6mm dry, about 40 minutes in the water. 6 ft. deep max. Stewert Island NZ 12 celsius which is about 50-55F 7mm wetsuit very very cold after 40min but the diving was worth it. Must admit normally I would not dive this cold normally if it gets too cold for my 5mm I just don't dive. 7mm suits make me look more like the Michelin man than normal by the way the rest of you are mad diving in the cold water you do >This is more or less a test of using google to post to newsgroups. My >ISP decided to disable usenet postings, allowing reading only. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >The water temp was 29.5 F and the air temp was 17.5 F. >Salt water, 6mm dry, about 40 minutes in the water. 6 ft. deep max. 35 F last May in Perch Lake wearing a 6.5mm Farmer John. > This is more or less a test of using google to post to newsgroups. My > ISP decided to disable usenet postings, allowing reading only. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > The water temp was 29.5 F and the air temp was 17.5 F. > Salt water, 6mm dry, about 40 minutes in the water. 6 ft. deep max. 33 F @ 60' FW. Feb. 2007. Last week-end, 56 at same depth. Must be the global warming. Dry suit in Feb., 5/3/2MM wet suit last week-end. Found a pair of Maui Jim sunglasses for a guy so got some free air fills coming! Dan > What's the coldest water you've all been diving in? Normally, probably 68-70F is the coldest over in the Florida springs... The absolute coldest was probably Lake Travis below the thermoclime... Around 85+F on the surface which results in nearly getting heatstroke with a 3mm wetsuit... Around 60F below the thermoclime which felt too cold for a 3mm wetsuit... > This is more or less a test of using google to post to newsgroups. My > ISP decided to disable usenet postings, allowing reading only. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > The water temp was 29.5 F and the air temp was 17.5 F. > Salt water, 6mm dry, about 40 minutes in the water. 6 ft. deep max. Early 1970's, Casco Bay, Maine, in February. 28 degree water according to NOAA at the time. About 30 minutes in a 1/4" farmer john wetsuit with a 1/8" hooded vest under it and a cold water hood. As I recall, my hands were pretty cold at the end but I was otherwise just a bit chilly. (Since then I've been in water nearly that cold in a dry suit at Nubble Light. It's definitely more comfortably warm dry.) The next year after that was under the ice in Rangely Lake. Near the surface it had to be 32 degrees... -- John Eells >> This is more or less a test of using google to post to newsgroups. My >> ISP decided to disable usenet postings, allowing reading only. [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >The next year after that was under the ice in Rangely Lake. Near the >surface it had to be 32 degrees... I was told that water under the ice on a lake stays at a constant 39 to 40 degrees throughout the water column. >JRE <noth...@nowhere.com> wrote in > > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I was told that water under the ice on a lake stays at a constant 39 > to 40 degrees throughout the water column. If all the water stayed 39F, then it would never freeze. If ice wasn't less dense than water, ice wouldn't float. You can't make ice from 39F water...its made from 32F water. As such, where do you think that the 32F (and 33F) water is going to be hiding? -hh >>JRE <noth...@nowhere.com> wrote in >> > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >As such, where do you think that the 32F (and 33F) water is going to >be hiding? I know that. But I was told it is 39-40 starting about a foot below the ice all the way down to the bottom. > >>JRE <noth...@nowhere.com> wrote in > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > I know that. But I was told it is 39-40 starting about a foot below > the ice all the way down to the bottom. Pure water is most dense at 3.9999? C. (39.2??F) so water nearer the bottom is a bit warmer than at the surface. At 4.0?C, it becomes less dense so as it freezes it begins to rise through the rest of the water column. It's all a function of depth of the lake (or whatever), air temp, frostline, salinity, etc. * "She's very much more than a dive babe, but they don't have a name for it on this planet yet. " ~ Douglas W. Popeye Frederick >> >>JRE <noth...@nowhere.com> wrote in >> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >column. It's all a function of depth of the lake (or whatever), air >temp, frostline, salinity, etc. How does that explain the water temps right at the ice then? > >> >>JRE <noth...@nowhere.com> wrote in > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > How does that explain the water temps right at the ice then? I've not ever measured the temp just below the ice. In any case, we all know that the thermometers on our gear can vary widely. The rule when diving cold water is - see whose gauges have the lowest temperature and then log that. Are you referring to the temperatures that someone told you as in the post above, or did I miss something here? * off to dive the South Pacific tank with 21 sharks then to go hunt sixgills at Owens Beach :-) > > How does that explain the water temps right at the ice then? > > I've not ever measured the temp just below the ice. The simple answer is that if its not 32.0001F, then there's a discontinuity in physics. The more complex answer is that it depends on a lot of stuff. Generally speaking, the 'thickness' of the water layer that's between 32F and 39F depends on how much mixing and thermal heat transfer can take place between neighboring water molecules. Pragmatically, the water temperature on the bottom will generally be 39F, since ice is an effective "insulator" in cutting down on convective heat transfer (ie, air/water versus air/ice/water)...hence half of the reason why lakes don't freeze significantly thicker, relative to their summer temperature swings. > * off to dive the South Pacific tank with 21 sharks then to go hunt > sixgills at Owens Beach :-) Enjoy! -hh > > > How does that explain the water temps right at the ice then? > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > 32F and 39F depends on how much mixing and thermal heat transfer can > take place between neighboring water molecules. Often, there is not much mixing. You can demonstrate this with a class of soda over ise. Watch the ice melt and see what happens. > Pragmatically, the water temperature on the bottom will generally be > 39F, since ice is an effective "insulator" in cutting down on > convective heat transfer (ie, air/water versus air/ice/water)...hence > half of the reason why lakes don't freeze significantly thicker, > relative to their summer temperature swings. yup. > > * off to dive the South Pacific tank with 21 sharks then to go hunt > > sixgills at Owens Beach :-) > > Enjoy! 70 minutes in the tank. 7-ft white tip likes to ride our bobbles and sit on our heads. 5 ft Woebbegong wanted to rest right where I needed to hover, so he kept looking at me until I moved. 60 minutes at Owens, deepest point 112 ft. Lots and lots of spiny dogfish and that's what sixgills eat so we thought we might have found a potential dinner spot. No such luck :-( * > -hh > deepest point 112 ft. Lots and lots of spiny dogfish and that's what > sixgills eat so we thought we might have found a potential dinner > spot. No such luck :-( The sharks feed on other sharks? That's not very nice. > The sharks feed on other sharks? That's not very nice. Start worrying, Greg: These particular sharks can also sniff out *nervous lawyers* too. -hh > >> >>JRE <noth...@nowhere.com> wrote in > >> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > > How does that explain the water temps right at the ice then? Pure water is *most* dense at 3.9999C (39.2F). Any variation in temperature from that point will decrease the density of the water. Therefore, water that is 39.2F will "sink" in water that is any other temperature. Looking at the situation rudimentarily and ignoring a bunch of stuff that would make a big difference in the real world, like runoff, underwater springs, and mixing, we can imagine that most of the cooling of a body of water happens at the surface. As the water cools from 50C to 39C, it becomes more dense. The water on the surface that has cooled is now more dense than the water below it that has not cooled. The cooler water will begin to "sink". Once the entire column is 39.2F, the water at the top can begin to cool further. As it does so, it becomes less dense than the water below it and will remain above the warmer water (which is at 39.2F). At 32F the water on top will freeze. The water directly below the ice will be at or very near 32F. As more of the water freezes, the insulative effect grows, requiring that much more energy to convert the water just below the ice level to ice. Eventually, you will hit an equilibrium point where there isn't enough energy to convery the water just below the ice to ice. At that point, the ice will be 32F or less, the water just below the ice will be just a hair over 32F, and the water below that will gradually get warmer until it reaches 39.2F. Below that depth, ignoring external factors, the water should all be 39.2F. I would guess that, in the real world, it doesn't often happen that way. There are too many things that effect the water column to allow the water to be that uniform. I've no realy experience in that area though, so I could be completely mistaken. > As such, where do you think that the 32F (and 33F) water is going to > be hiding? I know, I know, it's in the ice maker at the nice warm pub. John Hanson <jhanson@northernlinks.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: :I was told that water under the ice on a lake stays at a constant 39 :to 40 degrees throughout the water column. My observations are that it stays at 34. Maybe it depends on the lake. Or the thermometer. Dan Bracuk Never use a big word when a diminutive one will do. >John Hanson <jhanson@northernlinks.com> pounded away at his keyboard >resulting in: [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >Or the thermometer. I'm guessing the lake more than anything. I would think spring fed lakes would stay warmer under the ice. >>> This is more or less a test of using google to post to newsgroups. My >>> ISP decided to disable usenet postings, allowing reading only. [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > I was told that water under the ice on a lake stays at a constant 39 > to 40 degrees throughout the water column. Interesting. Quite possibly true except, of course, for the water right next to the ice, though how far the 32F zone extends I've no clue. I had no submersible thermometer back then, though. -- John Eells >This is more or less a test of using google to post to newsgroups. My >ISP decided to disable usenet postings, allowing reading only. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >The water temp was 29.5 F and the air temp was 17.5 F. >Salt water, 6mm dry, about 40 minutes in the water. 6 ft. deep max. St Lawrence River in May, usually the first dive of a year. About 50F. 7mm farmer john. Chester Polling Gloucester, Mass 06/16 90 feet 40F wearing a 7ml wetsuit. Crazy cold on a wetsuit. Only lasted 12 minutes at the buttom. Later I did a little research on how cold 40 degrees is.....consensus is that 40 F is plain dangerous on a wetsuit. My buddy bought a drysuit out of that dive. I still use my wetsuit. I am normally the last guy to complain of cold, so if I am cold everyone else is freezing. I corroborated with other wetsuit divers. None enjoyed this dive. They were shivering at the boat. Hope to go again after warmer weather set's in. I think anything 48F or over is fine with me. >This is more or less a test of using google to post to newsgroups. My >ISP decided to disable usenet postings, allowing reading only. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >The water temp was 29.5 F and the air temp was 17.5 F. >Salt water, 6mm dry, about 40 minutes in the water. 6 ft. deep max. Joe <Joe@hotmail.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: :Later I did a little research on how cold 40 degrees is.....consensus :is that 40 F is plain dangerous on a wetsuit. Not a good one. Dan Bracuk Never use a big word when a diminutive one will do. > Chester Polling Gloucester, Mass 06/16 90 feet 40F wearing a 7ml > wetsuit. The Poling is a fun wreck. I can't recall whether I ever dove it wet before diving it dry. But I've been diving off Cape Ann wet in the early spring with water temperatures in the 38-43F range more than once. > Crazy cold on a wetsuit. Only lasted 12 minutes at the buttom. > > Later I did a little research on how cold 40 degrees is.....consensus > is that 40 F is plain dangerous on a wetsuit. I don't agree. I think it's quite safe and even reasonably comfortable in a good 7mm farmer john suit with a cold water hood. A 3mm hooded vest also helps a lot, more than you would think. I used to regularly dive in water 40F or colder wet when I lived in Maine. > My buddy bought a drysuit out of that dive. I still use my wetsuit. > > I am normally the last guy to complain of cold, so if I am cold > everyone else is freezing. I corroborated with other wetsuit divers. > None enjoyed this dive. They were shivering at the boat. I have to conclude that you and they did not have adequate suits that fit well. A lot of rental suits look OK but have lost insulation--when the closed cell foam loses enough sealed cells, the suit does not insulate nearly as well. Same for an old (say, 10+ years old) suit you own even if you haven't done a lot of dives in it. > Hope to go again after warmer weather set's in. I think anything 48F > or over is fine with me. The water at the bottom by the Poling is probably well into the 50's by now. Those who go inside the wreck should be careful of the uprights that once supported the rail around the stairwell to the machinery spaces. They are solid rather than hollow and have rusted to sharp points. They could easily puncture a BC (or wing, or dry suit, or even a wet suit) without much effort. Last time I was there (late spring or early summer this year) I pounded the points dull with a rock but I'm sure they are merrily self-sharpening themselves again. -- John Eells > > Chester Polling Gloucester, Mass 06/16 90 feet 40F wearing a 7ml > > wetsuit. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > vest also helps a lot, more than you would think. I used to regularly > dive in water 40F or colder wet when I lived in Maine. There are other considerations......... A small person has less body mass to hold heat than a larger person. And what's the air temperature? A wet diver may be ok after a time in 40? water, then come out to 0? with nowhere to change to dry clothes and warm up. > > My buddy bought a drysuit out of that dive. I still use my wetsuit. > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > insulate nearly as well. Same for an old (say, 10+ years old) suit you > own even if you haven't done a lot of dives in it. Same for a new suit at depth. Remember Boyle's Law and the air cells inside neoprene? Even the newest, fluffiest 7 mm becomes much more thin as you descend. * "She's very much more than a dive babe, but they don't have a name for it on this planet yet. " ~ Douglas W. Popeye Frederick On Jul 29, 4:29 pm, JRE <noth...@nowhere.com> wrote: > Joe wrote: > > Chester Polling Gloucester, Mass 06/16 90 feet 40F wearing a 7ml [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > vest also helps a lot, more than you would think. I used to regularly > dive in water 40F or colder wet when I lived in Maine. There are other considerations......... A small person has less body mass to hold heat than a larger person. actually more importantly is that a smaller person has a relatively greater surface area than a bigger person thus you loose heat quicker Very informative. Good for you regarding your ability to withstand such cold water. After that I have been a couple of more times to shore dive at 45-48F degree water and did better without any problems. Again other people complained of cold water, but this time I was fine. It seems that one day your body could be colder than others even with the same temperature and same wetsuit. In any case I will be diving the St Lawrence Riiver in September and for the cure of all cold water illness I will be traveling one week for Bonaire Diving in October.................ahhhhh that's diving. Regards >> Chester Polling Gloucester, Mass 06/16 90 feet 40F wearing a 7ml >> wetsuit. [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] >early summer this year) I pounded the points dull with a rock but I'm >sure they are merrily self-sharpening themselves again. |
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