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Scuba Forum / General / August 2007

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GPS locator question

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Joe Granto - 18 Jul 2007 17:01 GMT
Okay, I am unsure if such a device works as I list below, but I am
hoping someone out there can give me a couple of ideas on where to
look...

WHAT I WANT: I transponder/receiver pair such that I can mount the
transponder in my dive flag styrofoam and have the receiver display
heading and distance to the flag. For example, my dive flag has the
transponder, and my wife has the receiver in the boat, and merely by
looking at the receiver she will know where I am.

I do not want one of the 1970's era systems where the receiver is a
funky antenna that you swing back and forth to test signal strength,
and only indicates heading. I am thinking something along the lines of
the transponder being a device that has a GPS antenna and FM
transmitter, and sends out its current GPS coordinates every 30
seconds or so via FM signal. The receiver is an FM receiver that can
receive the signal, a GPS antenna that can pull the coordinates down
for the receiver, and a small computer than can then take the
coordinate location of the receiver and the coordinate location of the
transponder, do some simple math, and determine heading and distance.

Does such a thing exist? I would prefer it not be a kit, but rather an
out-of-the-box solution. Thanks for the help ahead of time!

P.S. I have a portable GPS unit and a laptop, and can link the two for
the receiver part (assuming I can get the appropriate receiver).
nitespark - 18 Jul 2007 20:31 GMT
> Okay, I am unsure if such a device works as I list below, but I am
> hoping someone out there can give me a couple of ideas on where to
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> P.S. I have a portable GPS unit and a laptop, and can link the two for
> the receiver part (assuming I can get the appropriate receiver).

The technology exists and has for quite awhile.  I know of no commercial
products for that specific an application.  Many portable GPS units send
out a data stream that can be transmitted, received, decoded, and
interpreted onto a map.  Ham operators have been doing this for years
with units in their vehicles (APRS).
Lee Bell - 19 Jul 2007 01:38 GMT
> WHAT I WANT: I transponder/receiver pair such that I can mount the
> transponder in my dive flag styrofoam and have the receiver display
> heading and distance to the flag. For example, my dive flag has the
> transponder, and my wife has the receiver in the boat, and merely by
> looking at the receiver she will know where I am.

I'm quite sure it exists. Many companies that find it convenient to track
their truck or car fleet use systems that will do what you want. The only
question is whether it's worth it to you.

Lee
Dillon Pyron - 24 Jul 2007 16:01 GMT
>> WHAT I WANT: I transponder/receiver pair such that I can mount the
>> transponder in my dive flag styrofoam and have the receiver display
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>their truck or car fleet use systems that will do what you want. The only
>question is whether it's worth it to you.

Yeah, most of those use satellites for the recieving end.  I would
guess Popeye knows quite a bit about this.

>Lee
>
Signature

dillon

Broadway Photo sucks.  Ask me why.

Douglas W. "Popeye" Frederick - 24 Jul 2007 18:58 GMT
>>> WHAT I WANT: I transponder/receiver pair such that I can mount the
>>> transponder in my dive flag styrofoam and have the receiver display
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Yeah, most of those use satellites for the receiving end.  I would
> guess Popeye knows quite a bit about this.

 Alan Street would be the resident GPS genius... :-)

 I don't have one in the truck- I hear enough voices in my head now.

 I've often elaborated that If my truck ever says anything to me...

 I'm getting out.

 Any time.

 Any speed.

 Any where.

 Just -out-.

>>Lee

Signature

 "I wasn't going to get into any of this until later, but you asked
a reasonable question. The problem for me in answering is that
     I'm  theorizing with more intuited logic than facts." -JOF

                Popeye/ www.finalprotectivefire.com

Dillon Pyron - 02 Aug 2007 01:55 GMT
Thus spake "Douglas W. \"Popeye\" Frederick"
<Popeye@finalprotectivefire.com> :

>>>> WHAT I WANT: I transponder/receiver pair such that I can mount the
>>>> transponder in my dive flag styrofoam and have the receiver display
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
>  I don't have one in the truck- I hear enough voices in my head now.

Yeah, but don't the track you?  I know Roadway does, friend of mine
worked on the project for them.

>  I've often elaborated that If my truck ever says anything to me...
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>>>Lee
>>>
Signature

dillon

Broadway Photo sucks.  Ask me why.

Douglas W. "Popeye" Frederick - 06 Aug 2007 03:22 GMT
> Thus spake "Douglas W. \"Popeye\" Frederick"
> <Popeye@finalprotectivefire.com> :
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> Yeah, but don't the track you?  I know Roadway does, friend of mine
> worked on the project for them.

 Ya, but it's passive to us.

 Depending on what level of payment, it can relay a variety of info to
dispatch.

 We only use the system for messaging.

>>  I've often elaborated that If my truck ever says anything to me...
>>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>>
>>>>Lee

Signature

 "I wasn't going to get into any of this until later, but you asked
a reasonable question. The problem for me in answering is that
     I'm  theorizing with more intuited logic than facts." -JOF

                Popeye/ www.finalprotectivefire.com

Dillon Pyron - 11 Aug 2007 02:00 GMT
Thus spake "Douglas W. \"Popeye\" Frederick"
<Popeye@finalprotectivefire.com> :

>> Thus spake "Douglas W. \"Popeye\" Frederick"
>> <Popeye@finalprotectivefire.com> :
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>
>  We only use the system for messaging.

Yeah, but the NSA knows you were doing 72 in Montana.  And that you
spent 27% of your time in the left lane.  And that you slowed down to
55 when that topless chick drove by.

>>>  I've often elaborated that If my truck ever says anything to me...
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>>>>>Lee
>>>>>
Signature

dillon

Opinions are like farts.  
Everybody has them, but mine don't stink

Scott - 11 Aug 2007 02:20 GMT
> Yeah, but the NSA knows you were doing 72 in Montana.

> And that you spent 27% of your time in the left lane.  And that you slowed
down to
> 55 when that topless chick drove by.

At there was some useful information gleaned.

--
Kill the babies, save the whales, raise taxes, and deny everything. -- The
Democrat Party
Scott - 19 Jul 2007 01:30 GMT
> Okay, I am unsure if such a device works as I list below, but I am
> hoping someone out there can give me a couple of ideas on where to
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> P.S. I have a portable GPS unit and a laptop, and can link the two for
> the receiver part (assuming I can get the appropriate receiver).

********************
http://web.usna.navy.mil/~bruninga/aprs.html
http://www.aprs.net/
http://www.cave.org/aprs/
http://www.ew.usna.edu/~bruninga/iss-faq.html
http://www.winaprs.org/
http://www.aprsfl.net/
********************
I just checked on the FCC rules for using FRS/GMRS radios for the link, and
they can be used for digital data providing the remote link(marker float),
is not used as a continous beacon. The base/mobile unit can "query" the
remote and the rmote will "acknowledge" with position data in APRS format.
Good, flat beam-tilt antennas at both ends should allow solid communications
over calm water for over a 20 miles radius, on 1 watt or less.
This can be done quite easily, but some "fudging" of the FCC rules may be
necessary to achieve long distances without licensing the operators for GMRS
operation. (2 watts).
I can probably put one set together for about $600, but that won't include
any labor.
***********************

From a buddy of mine who forgot more about RF than any of us ever want to
know.
Scott - 19 Jul 2007 12:32 GMT
> > Okay, I am unsure if such a device works as I list below, but I am
> > hoping someone out there can give me a couple of ideas on where to
[quoted text clipped - 46 lines]
> From a buddy of mine who forgot more about RF than any of us ever want to
> know.

More from Mr. RF:

************************
OR....use a couple of these at $260 a copy:

http://gpsonsale.com/garmin/products/Rino-520.htm?ysmwa=0UnjhMewIHBJC5XQnRV55G_q
vF4Faebssu4YV7mhcZUy8pX15Q6DNg-WCHd2pdXT


************************
Geoff - 19 Jul 2007 03:55 GMT
>Okay, I am unsure if such a device works as I list below, but I am
>hoping someone out there can give me a couple of ideas on where to
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>P.S. I have a portable GPS unit and a laptop, and can link the two for
>the receiver part (assuming I can get the appropriate receiver).

The APRS solution might work, but for the ham band stuff you would
need an amateur radio license. Most of the APRS stuff seems to consist
of components like pocket GPS, a TNC, and a 2 meter radio for the data
link. The Kenwood handheld looks promising:
http://www.kenwoodusa.com/products/ListProduct.aspx?k1=3&k2=9&k3=11&pr=2137

If you are not too far off shore and still have cellular coverage
where you dive you could put a GPS equipped cell phone like the newer
Blackberry 8800 series in a waterproof plastic box. Then schedule the
laptop to query the phone about it's location as a tracking request.
The laptop could then compute distance and bearing to the target based
on the two GPS positions. This has the advantage of small size,
completely self contained in one unit, no license required and works
world wide. Stuffing a $400 phone into a float might be a bit pricey
for some, but if you have a boat and let your wife drive it while you
dive, I don't think price is an object for you. :)
Grumman-581 - 19 Jul 2007 06:36 GMT
> Stuffing a $400 phone into a float might be a bit pricey
> for some, but if you have a boat and let your wife drive
> it while you dive, I don't think price is an object for
> you. :)

The last (and only) time that Grace drove my boat, she drove over the
ski tow line and sucked it up in the jet impeller... Luckily, we were
out on the lake with a friend who was on his jet ski and he was able
to tow us back to the dock... It took about an hour or so to get it
untangled one I had it home and could get it up high enough to be able
to work underneath it... There was a *lot* of rope tangled in there...
Of course it was *my* fault even though I had repeatively told her to
*not* cross the rope... I'm sure that there are some women somewhere
that can be trusted to pilot a boat... I've just never met one...
nospam@all.please.net - 19 Jul 2007 13:23 GMT
>> Stuffing a $400 phone into a float might be a bit pricey
>> for some, but if you have a boat and let your wife drive
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> *not* cross the rope... I'm sure that there are some women somewhere
> that can be trusted to pilot a boat... I've just never met one...

Look up Captain Nancy Birchett (Sea Cobra) the next time you're near
Destin if you want to meet one.
Lee Bell - 19 Jul 2007 10:48 GMT
> If you are not too far off shore and still have cellular coverage
> where you dive you could put a GPS equipped cell phone like the newer
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> for some, but if you have a boat and let your wife drive it while you
> dive, I don't think price is an object for you. :)

Actually, it does not work world wide unless you have the right kind of
phone and the phone service set up world wide. The signal travels via the
cell phone system. Worse, cell phone service is, at best, spotty only a few
miles off shore and even more unreliable from a phone located close to the
surface. How many bars do you get?

If the purpose is for safety, you have a couple options. One is a personal
locating beacon, basically a compact EPIRB. Another, probably less expensive
option might be a small GPS, and a hand held VHF radio. If you reach the
surface and the boat's not visible, you can call the boat and give them your
location. If the boat's visible, which it normally would be, you can use
your compass and give it a heading. If your boat's nowhere to be found, you
can call other boats. If the VHS has the DSC feature, it will talk to the
GPS and, in an emergency, broadcast your location to any boat on the right
frequency, including official search and rescue agencies.

Lee

Lee
Geoff - 19 Jul 2007 13:13 GMT
>Actually, it does not work world wide unless you have the right kind of
>phone and the phone service set up world wide. The signal travels via the
>cell phone system. Worse, cell phone service is, at best, spotty only a few
>miles off shore and even more unreliable from a phone located close to the
>surface. How many bars do you get?

Which is why I predicated it on being close enough to shore that you
have cell coverage and why I recommended the BB:
http://www.blackberry8800series.com/

T-Mobile and Cingular/AT&T are currently selling this model. Opinions
about coverage vary. The GPS is built in and the phone can be queried
for its location via the cell network. It does CDMA and GSM/GPRS on
all relevant bands.

Another nice feature is it has mapping built in so you will know which
direction to paddle when she doesn't pick you up. :) Stuff some
earphones into the waterproof box and you can listen to your favorite
tracks while waiting for the rescue chopper. (Don't turn it up too
loud or you will run the battery down or miss the pleasing sound of
Sea Stallion turbines and the whuff whuff of her blades.)

I used my 7320 in China in 2005 and had better coverage there via
China Mobile than I did in the US on T-Mobile. I suspect the Chinese
had the Germans build them a world-class cell net. It sure as hell
wasn't an American designed system. The company paid the tab so I
don't know what messaging cost but I had four or more bars everywhere
I went, including cruising down the Yangtze river and the Three Gorges
dam. I even had cell coverage several miles out of Guilin surrounded
by picturesque limestone mountains.

Once you get more than 1 or 2 miles off shore you will very likely
have zero signal on the surface of the water. In that case your only
solution is the handheld GPS/Packet radio/APRS system and a direct
link between the boat unit and the float. Even then the propagation is
line of sight at 144MHz so it won't work beyond a few miles anyway but
you would have no dependency on shore-based radios. Licensing becomes
an issue but with the advent of no-code Technician class you can crack
a study guide and be licensed in a few weeks.
Lee Bell - 19 Jul 2007 15:54 GMT
> T-Mobile and Cingular/AT&T are currently selling this model. Opinions
> about coverage vary. The GPS is built in and the phone can be queried
> for its location via the cell network. It does CDMA and GSM/GPRS on
> all relevant bands.

As far as I know, the only world wide phones are the quad GSM models. I
could be mistaken.  I do know that, in at least some locations, you to have
a service contract with the local provider.

> Once you get more than 1 or 2 miles off shore you will very likely
> have zero signal on the surface of the water. In that case your only
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> an issue but with the advent of no-code Technician class you can crack
> a study guide and be licensed in a few weeks.

All of my fixed VHS radios have a DSC feature which, with a push of a
button, broadcasts a Mayday, an identification which is registered to the
boat my radio is on, and the latitude and longitude that the radio gets
through a link with my GPS. In the event of a problem that requires
attention, first aid, whatever, the radio can call for assistance while my
wife or I do what is necessary to address the problem.  The combination
requires no special license and is likely to be the least expensive option.
The only problem is, as with most of the existing systems discussed, the
call for help will be broadcast widely.

Lee
Matthias Voss - 19 Jul 2007 21:01 GMT
>>T-Mobile and Cingular/AT&T are currently selling this model. Opinions
>>about coverage vary. The GPS is built in and the phone can be queried
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> could be mistaken.  I do know that, in at least some locations, you to have
> a service contract with the local provider.

I think it mostly depends on the kind of contract you have.

For instance, in Sibiria, we all had similar cell phones.
Only the Swiss guy with a time based regular contract could
do calls there, Christiane couldn't do anything except have
an idea that she the could ( reality mismatch), I was at
least recieving system voices telling me why it didn't work,
but was able to send SMS, while in Moscow, with booked in
with a different local company, they even could tell me in
an intellegible language, that making calls chances were
cancelled.
Screw prepaid.

Matthias
Geoff - 20 Jul 2007 14:47 GMT
>As far as I know, the only world wide phones are the quad GSM models. I
>could be mistaken.  I do know that, in at least some locations, you to have
>a service contract with the local provider.

The point was that some VHF ham bands and ham licensing in general is
not world wide. You have to get permission of the local government to
use a US ham license outside US territory. The same applies to marine
band radios. The FCC licenses the radio, not the operator, in marine
and commercial bands. In Amateur radio, the operator is licensed under
FCC Part 97 so both diver and boat pilot would need licenses unless
you can call the system "automatic control". In that case the boat
pilot could not manually initiate a query event and cause the system
to transmit. (Being legalistic here.) You (generally) don't have to
obtain special permission to use a cell phone where coverage is
available so licensing and portability is not a concern.

Marine band direct links are probably preferable but are modular and
more of a kit since you would be putting together a marine handheld
and a GPS and doing it all with some kind of TNC to handle the digital
info.

Using an EPIRB or ELT is out of the question since the OP's intent was
for routine use to maintain a more or less constant watch on distance
and bearing to target.

The primary concern with a cell phone implementation will be line of
sight coverage for the phone on the surface of the water and the
ability to use the digital features of the phone when accessing the
cell network.

In the US and territorial waters a quad band phone is probably
overkill and a Blackberry is very suitable. Internationally, if a
"quad band" phone is a necessity, then you might have to resort to
something like an iPhone to obtain a comparable level of GPS, GSM, and
multimedia experience while you await your boat pickup or helicopter
rescue. The advantage of the iPhone over the Blackberry is that you
can take 2 megapixel video or stills of the circling sharks or record
your last will and testament in high-quality MP4 stereophonic sound.
Don't forget to put the phone back in it's waterproof container before
you die.
-hh - 19 Jul 2007 13:04 GMT
> WHAT I WANT: I transponder/receiver pair such that I can mount the
> transponder in my dive flag styrofoam and have the receiver display
> heading and distance to the flag. For example, my dive flag has the
> transponder, and my wife has the receiver in the boat, and merely by
> looking at the receiver she will know where I am.

In other words, you want a GPS that transmits its location, and a way to
receive that location signal, right?

Such a product exists.  

It is currently used in commercial shipping and essentially works by
sending the GPS data through Marine VHF Radio, where other
similarly-equipped systems can receive the data.

It is called the Automatic Identification System (AIS)

See:
http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/enav/ais/default.htm

> I would prefer it not be a kit, but rather an
> out-of-the-box solution.

Class A systems are an "out-of-the-box" solution, but you'll probably
not like the price tag, plus I don't think that you'll meet all of the
carriage requirements to be legally allowed to use one, see

Title 33 CFR, 164.46 - Automatic Identification System (AIS).

There's a Class B system that's apparently been approved, but devices
are not yet available as per the US Coast Guard's website, above.

FYI, there's also a similar system that exists for aviation.  A coworker
who has a small C172 owns & uses one, but I'm not sure how it does its
data dissemination:  I think that this system might rely on Air Traffic
Control to be the data retransmission relay agent?

Briefly looking through some webpages to try to find system costs, it
looks like it would cost around $500 to add AIS **receive-only**
capability to a boat's existing Radio & GPS system.  This would infer
that the AIS transmit side is significantly more expensive.  

-hh
Brad - 20 Jul 2007 00:57 GMT
>> WHAT I WANT: I transponder/receiver pair such that I can mount the
>> transponder in my dive flag styrofoam and have the receiver display
[quoted text clipped - 39 lines]
>
> -hh

Normally I curse the mobile coverage here in PNG but on the weekend I was
able to get 2 bars while Madang town was just visible on the horizon. I'd
say we were at least 20 n miles from the tower. Cruising at 7 knots I was
making calls at 6:30PM and wasn't in harbour till 10PM. You may get a lot
less range depending on where the tower is. A PDA with wireless and a either
an internal or GPS or a Bluetooth unit would be good for your short distance
needs. As there is nothing blocking the signal you could get good range with
an external antenna on the boat. Kick in active sync, then the Active sync
remote display from the powertoys package and you should be set. getting a
pre WM5 device would be best as you can not active sync over wireless on a
WM5 and Bluetooth doesn't have as good a range. Bluetooth could work in a
pinch. Using Microsoft portrait would work as a walkie talkie too. Otter
cases are waterproof and allow use of the touch screen so you could be
writing a dive report for the newsgroup while waiting for pickup.
There are other packages but the one I described gives you a kit that all
devices involved have uses 7 days a week and no call costs. A Dell axim 30
is as cheap as chips and has the features needed with the extended battery.
The garmin mobile 10 if it is as sturdy as the GPS 10 would be a good match
for it. With that package you get turn by turn navigation for the car in the
bundle. For offshore Ozi explorer with some scanned maps would be a good
choice. With Ozi you can add maps for anywhere in the world with a little
research and can use tools such as Google earth to calibrate most maps
quickly and easily. The system isn't foolproof and shouldn't be used in life
or death situations but if the unit goes out of range at least your wife
should know where you were last reported at.

Signature

Brad Leyden
6° 43.5816' S 146° 59.3097' E  WGS84
You haven't seen a stolen election yet, just wait for PNG in 2007.
Correction it won't be stolen, it will be purchased wholesale.
To mail spam is really hot but please reply to thread so all may benefit (or
laugh at my mistakes)

-hh - 20 Jul 2007 12:11 GMT
> Normally I curse the mobile coverage here in PNG but on the weekend I was
> able to get 2 bars while Madang town was just visible on the horizon. I'd
> say we were at least 20 n miles from the tower. Cruising at 7 knots I was
> making calls at 6:30PM and wasn't in harbour till 10PM. You may get a lot
> less range depending on where the tower is.

Having line-of-sight and a reasonable antenna height above the water's
surface make a big difference.

> A PDA with wireless and a either
> an internal or GPS or a Bluetooth unit would be good for your short distance
> needs. As there is nothing blocking the signal you could get good range with
> an external antenna on the boat.

So this is using Bluetooth as the transport medium?  Or are you doing
a cellular call with the relay from the "local" tower?  I was under
the impression that ranges for Bluetooth were on the order of <50ft.

> Brad Leyden
> 6? 43.5816' S 146? 59.3097' E  WGS84

Is that an air strip with a traffic circle in the middle of it???

(a tad to the south & east of your GPS location).

-hh
 
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