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Scuba Forum / General / July 2007Poseidon Cyklon 300 IP
I have a Cyklon 300 I bought several months ago, got back from being rebuilt about a month ago. I just received yesterday an IP Gauge that you hook onto your BC hose and when I turned the air on my 3500 psi tank, it reads 150 psi. I had been told that the IP for this Cyklon, first stage is the model 3070, was set at about 174 psi. I was wondering will the IP change depending on the pressure in my tank? Will the 174 occur at a lower tank pressure? I have dove this regulator about three time so far and everything seems fine. The second stage primary is the metal housing kind, which when serviced was taken of an early 2305 first stage, and my Octopus is the yellow plastic with black hockey puck. > I have a Cyklon 300 I bought several months ago, got back from being rebuilt > about a month ago. I just received yesterday an IP Gauge that you hook onto [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > depending on the pressure in my tank? Will the 174 occur at a lower tank > pressure? Yes. At about 20 bar. IP changes from 12 bar at 200 bar supply to 10 bar at 20. >I have dove this regulator about three time so far and everything > seems fine. The second stage primary is the metal housing kind, which when > serviced was taken of an early 2305 first stage, and my Octopus is the > yellow plastic with black hockey puck. Metal housing is much better. The metal locking pin at the hose end is endangered in the plastic, when you take of the hose, or the inner parts ( after taking off the puck!) Matthias > Yes. At about 20 bar. IP changes from 12 bar at 200 bar supply to 10 bar > at 20. Am I reading this wrong or is this the opposite of what you said before? A 12 bar IP at 200 bar that becomes a 10 bar at 20 bar is not an increase at lower pressure. Did you get it backwards or am I reading it wrong? Lee >>Yes. At about 20 bar. IP changes from 12 bar at 200 bar supply to 10 bar >>at 20. > > Am I reading this wrong or is this the opposite of what you said before? A > 12 bar IP at 200 bar that becomes a 10 bar at 20 bar is not an increase at > lower pressure. Did you get it backwards or am I reading it wrong? Ooops, thanks for your diligence. It is reverse of what I wrote. Matthias > I have a Cyklon 300 I bought several months ago, got back from being > rebuilt about a month ago. I just received yesterday an IP Gauge that you > hook onto your BC hose and when I turned the air on my 3500 psi tank, it > reads 150 psi. I had been told that the IP for this Cyklon, first stage > is the model 3070, was set at about 174 psi. I've never owned a Poseidon regulator, but 174 psi is significantly higher than the IP in any of the regulators I have owned. For that matter, so is 150 psi. > I was wondering will the IP change depending on the pressure in my tank? Not if your first stage is working properly. The whole point of the first stage is to maintain a constant IP as long as the pressure in the tank is the same or higher than that IP. > Will the 174 occur at a lower tank pressure? Nope. > I have dove this regulator about three time so far and everything seems > fine. The second stage primary is the metal housing kind, > which when serviced was taken of an early 2305 first stage, and my Octopus > is the yellow plastic with black hockey puck. If it seems fine, it probably is fine. If it worries you, though, ask the tech that rebuilt it or the one that will service it the next time. Lee >>I have a Cyklon 300 I bought several months ago, got back from being >>rebuilt about a month ago. I just received yesterday an IP Gauge that you [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > stage is to maintain a constant IP as long as the pressure in the tank is > the same or higher than that IP. The Cyklon 300 is a membrane operated unbalanced for supply pressure first stage. Water pressure and the big spring are balanced directly by the closing spring and bottle pressure, at the other side of the piston. If the bottle pressure drops, the difference in pressure created by demand, has an easier job of actuating the membrane/pushrod/piston mechanism. >>Will the 174 occur at a lower tank pressure? > > Nope. Yes. >>I have dove this regulator about three time so far and everything seems >>fine. The second stage primary is the metal housing kind, >>which when serviced was taken of an early 2305 first stage, and my Octopus >>is the yellow plastic with black hockey puck. > > If it seems fine, it probably is fine. Yep. One has to keep in mind, though, that the second stage has to be adjusted while supply pressure is at 20 bars, to prevent low supply freeflow. If you have a balanced ( for supply pressure variations) first stage, you'll have a stable IP, and may set it to anything between 9-10,5 bar. The second stage will work just as fine. Side note: Part of the condemnation of Poseidon regs by the DIR crowd is that they claim the second stage to operate upstream. This, of course, is not true for the 300 second stage. >If it worries you, though, ask the > tech that rebuilt it or the one that will service it the next time. I hope he will get the right answer... Matthias >>>I was wondering will the IP change depending on the pressure in my tank? >> Not if your first stage is working properly. The whole point of the first >> stage is to maintain a constant IP as long as the pressure in the tank is >> the same or higher than that IP. > The Cyklon 300 is a membrane operated unbalanced for supply pressure first > stage. Water pressure and the big spring are *> balanced directly by the closing spring and bottle pressure, > at the other side of the piston. If the bottle pressure drops, the > difference in pressure created by demand, has an easier job of actuating > the membrane/pushrod/piston mechanism. I was using balanced first stage regulators long before I had an idea how one actually worked, but my first regulator was an unbalanced diaphram Aqualung. Your statement sounded wrong and was inconsistent with the performance of my first single hose regulator. If the IP got higher as pressure in the tank became lower, the regulator should have breathed easier as pressure in the tank neared normal IP pressure. That's not what happened with mine. It breathed noticably harder once tank pressure dropped below about 500 psi. Chances of a freeflow also decreased significantly when tank pressure got low. Knowing that you're no fool, I got Vance Harlows Scuba Regulator Maintenance and Repair book out and did some research. I now suspect that you failed to mention the actual reason why Cyklon 300 IP increases as tank pressure drops. My guess is that it uses a downstream valve in the first stage. In an unbalanced regulator, regardless of whether it is a piston or a diaphram design, that would cause the IP to increase slightly as pressure in the tank drops in an. To be honest, I had not considered that particular combination. I learned something new today. > Yep. One has to keep in mind, though, that the second stage has to be > adjusted while supply pressure is at 20 bars, to prevent low supply > freeflow. > Side note: Part of the condemnation of Poseidon regs by the DIR crowd is > that they claim the second stage to operate upstream. This, of course, is > not true for the 300 second stage. A criticism that Vance confirms for some, but not all, Poseidon second stages. On a related note, the combination of downstream first stage and upstream second creates an interesting problem. A first stage failure, or leak in the high pressure seat will release excessive pressure to the second stage which, thanks to the upstream valve, will be pushed closed rather than open, building intermediate pressure until either the hose or the second stage fails, usually explosively. For this reason, regulators with upstream second stages normally have an overpressure relief valve somewhere in the system. Some are in the first stage and some are in the second stage, another reason why you need to be careful when combining first and second stages not designed to work together. Lee >>>>I was wondering will the IP change depending on the pressure in my tank? > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > about 500 psi. Chances of a freeflow also decreased significantly when tank > pressure got low. It is all a question of on which side of the membrane the forces have their "leverage" > Knowing that you're no fool, I got Vance Harlows Scuba Regulator Maintenance > and Repair book out and did some research. I now suspect that you failed to > mention the actual reason why Cyklon 300 IP increases as tank pressure > drops. My guess is that it uses a downstream valve in the first stage. I always must be careful not to mix up downstream and upstream...In the 300 first stage, any tank pressure which is above ambient pressure would help pressing the piston cone done into it's seat, thus stopping flow. That would qualify as upstream, imho. > In > an unbalanced regulator, regardless of whether it is a piston or a diaphram > design, that would cause the IP to increase slightly as pressure in the tank > drops in an. To be honest, I had not considered that particular combination. > I learned something new today. In a Scubapro MK2, for instance, ambient( water) pressure and the big spring work together to _open_ the high pressure seal by lifting the piston. The piston will be closed and held down by the pressure at its back, which is equal to the intermediate pressure. Breathing offsets this balance, and the big spring side powers open the valve. Less bottle pressure means less IP here. >>Yep. One has to keep in mind, though, that the second stage has to be >>adjusted while supply pressure is at 20 bars, to prevent low supply [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > second stage, another reason why you need to be careful when combining first > and second stages not designed to work together. That is why the newer poseidon 5000 first stages have an integrated OPV. The need came with the triton 2nd stage, which did not have a hose integrated relief valve, which the showerhead 2nd stages and the Xtream do. Matthias >> Knowing that you're no fool, I got Vance Harlows Scuba Regulator >> Maintenance and Repair book out and did some research. I now suspect that >> you failed to mention the actual reason why Cyklon 300 IP increases as >> tank pressure drops. My guess is that it uses a downstream valve in the >> first stage. > I always must be careful not to mix up downstream and upstream...In the > 300 first stage, any tank pressure which is above ambient pressure would > help pressing the piston cone done into it's seat, thus stopping flow. > That would qualify as upstream, imho. Leave it to me. Now it's my turn to get things backwards. You are correct, that is an upstream valve and it is the upstream valve that results in an increase in IP as tank pressure decreases. I'll punish my hands for typing incorrectly later. Lee > Leave it to me. Now it's my turn to get things backwards. You are correct, > that is an upstream valve and it is the upstream valve that results in an > increase in IP as tank pressure decreases. I'll punish my hands for typing > incorrectly later. No, let Jayna do it, and take pictures. >> I have a Cyklon 300 I bought several months ago, got back from being >> rebuilt about a month ago. I just received yesterday an IP Gauge that you [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > than the IP in any of the regulators I have owned. For that matter, so is > 150 psi. That's because the Poseidon Cyclon is to a higher interstage pressure (IP) of approximately 11.5 bar or 169psi, because these regulators were designed for and (in some cases still) being used as the standard for deep air diving in the days (decades) before Tri-Mix diving became mainstream and lost the 'demon gas' slander. When diving air below 50m, due to the density & pressure increase, air become 'thick' i.e. has greater viscosity, thus there is greater effort of breathing on a regulator with an IP lower than 10 BAR (147 psi). The higher IP delivers more gas at greater depth, reducing this issue. Poseidon were the only ones to do this and all other regs and brands commonly use IP's in the 9 to 10 BAR range (130 to 147psi). The common practice for regulators in use with Tri-Mix gases is to LOWER the IP of the reg, often below the manufacturers recommended range, as the smaller monatomic Helium atom flows much more freely than either Nitrogen or Oxygen (both of which are commonly diatomic, i.e. N2 & O2), thus a high IP is not required to allow the gas to flow sufficiently and, in some cases, a reg configured with standard IP could engender a free-flow in shallow depths. The Poseidon Jetstream and their newer Xtreme regs (I believe) now use the same IP as most other brands. An unbalanced 1st stage will cause greater breathing resistance as the cylinder pressure drops, unlike a balance 1st stage which (ideally) should deliver the same gas delivery until the ambient (water) pressure is almost the same as the cylinder pressure. Almost all modern regs are of the Balanced type, and the most common is the Balanced Diaphragm. Few regs, and only those at the lower end of the market, are unbalanced. They're commonly sold for use as inexpensive warm-water regs or for use as dry-suit inflation (on Argon cylinders). A metal bodied 2nd stage is often preferable to plastic especially for cold water diving as, apart from greater durability, it assists the reg to deal with cold water without freezing and / or free-flowing. This is especially likely in water at 4C or lower and in fresh-water. In those conditions the reg should be configured for the conditions. Many regulators, including Poseidon and Scubapro, require a 'cold water kit' often filling the side of the 1st stage thats open to the ambient water with silicon grease, thus preventing water entering the 1st stage without compromising it's ability to compensate for depth. They also fit additional heat-exchanges in the 2nd stage. Other 1st stages, such as the Apeks and its derivatives (including Aqualung) environmentally seal the 1st stage and don't allow water to enter. Apeks 1st stages with the letters DS in the name mean that they are 'Dry Sealed' and thus OK in cold and contaminated water, i.e. DST (Dry Sealed with Turret), DS4 (Dry Sealed and 4 low pressure ports (but no turret)). If you dive in the UK and include early season diving in the sea, or especially inland sites such as Stoney Cove, Dosthill, Wraysbury, NDC Chepstow, Capenwray and Vobster Quay, all of which are fresh-water locations, where the water is often far colder than the sea, then a cold-water rated regulator is strongly recommended. Regards, Diesel. >> I was wondering will the IP change depending on the pressure in my tank? > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Lee >>> I have a Cyklon 300 I bought several months ago, got back from being >>> rebuilt about a month ago. I just received yesterday an IP Gauge [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > deep air diving in the days (decades) before Tri-Mix diving became > mainstream and lost the 'demon gas' slander. You think they were designed for high IP for to go deep on air? Interesting. Physics must have changed considerably since then as the nowadays tune the same second stages for 8.5 to 9.5 bar. > When diving air below 50m, due to the density & pressure increase, air > become 'thick' i.e. has greater viscosity, thus there is greater effort > of breathing on a regulator with an IP lower than 10 BAR (147 psi). The > higher IP delivers more gas at greater depth, reducing this issue. > Poseidon were the only ones to do this and all other regs and brands > commonly use IP's in the 9 to 10 BAR range (130 to 147psi). You really should read my comments an that to Lee. You're beating a dead horse spread by inapt mechanics who did not read well the repair manuals. > The common practice for regulators in use with Tri-Mix gases is to LOWER > the IP of the reg, often below the manufacturers recommended range, as [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > and, in some cases, a reg configured with standard IP could engender a > free-flow in shallow depths. Ah. Me thought lowered IP is to prevent from free flow when riding a scooter. > The Poseidon Jetstream and their newer Xtreme regs (I believe) now use > the same IP as most other brands. And still deliver excellen on depth, even on air. > An unbalanced 1st stage will cause greater breathing resistance as the > cylinder pressure drops, unlike a balance 1st stage which (ideally) > should deliver the same gas delivery until the ambient (water) pressure > is almost the same as the cylinder pressure. Not Poseidon ones. IP increases as tank pressure drops. I told why in a post to Lee. BTW., it is in the manual as well. >Almost all modern regs are > of the Balanced type, and the most common is the Balanced Diaphragm. Source? > A metal bodied 2nd stage is often preferable to plastic especially for > cold water diving as, apart from greater durability, it assists the reg > to deal with cold water without freezing and / or free-flowing. This is > especially likely in water at 4C or lower and in fresh-water. In those > conditions the reg should be configured for the conditions. Hey. I did not "configure" anything at Baikal, with temps from 2 to 4 Centigrade. Regs were Apeks DS4 with Scubapro D 350 2nd, and Poseidon Xtreme. > Many regulators, including Poseidon and Scubapro, require a 'cold water > kit' often filling the side of the 1st stage thats open to the ambient > water with silicon grease, thus preventing water entering the 1st stage > without compromising it's ability to compensate for depth. They also > fit additional heat-exchanges in the 2nd stage. Nope. That is Apeks. Poseidons policy is to discourage from the use of freeze caps now. The Xtreme has nil. Matthias > If you dive in the UK and include early season diving in the sea, or > especially inland sites such as Stoney Cove, Dosthill, Wraysbury, NDC [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] >> >> Lee Hi Diesel And thanks for your input. The only thing is though this is an unbalanced or uncompensated first stage diaphragm as John that serviced it called it. Which actually is the opposite in that this regulator, and I can testify to this by actual use, breathes easier towards the end of the dive, the opposite of the unbalanced piston regulators which you do see at the low end of today's brands. They breathe harder at the end of the dive, maybe in a way warning that it is ending. They did the Poseidons this way to make it easier on a weary diver at the end of the dive with 500 psi lets say to get back to the boat with less work. I did lower the psi to 500 and on my IP Gauge I am getting about 176 or 178 where as at about 3500 psi was seeing 150 or so. Also I drained my tank out rather fast by purging the metal second stage and actually froze it and the first stage. When the second stage froze it free flowed till I could warm it up enough to melt the ice and when the first stage froze it actually popped and air was coming out eveywhere till I let that warm up. I would hate for this to happen while diving >>> I have a Cyklon 300 I bought several months ago, got back from being >>> rebuilt about a month ago. I just received yesterday an IP Gauge that [quoted text clipped - 87 lines] >> >> Lee |
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