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Scuba Forum / General / July 2007Ken Kurtis on nitrox
Browsing around the Aggressor site, I noticed the recent log from the Palau Aggressor: http://www.aggressor.com/capt_log.php?log_id=1125 "This week we had the famous Ken Kurtis from Reef Seekers with us. I have known Ken since 1996 when we got together at a dive trade show to talk about the use of nitrox. Ken left the meeting ranting and raving that nitrox was the devils gas and he would never, ever resort to the use or sales of it, EVER! Well over the years it appears that Ken (AIR) has mellowed a bit and has crossed over to the dark side. Yes, you are hearing correctly! Ken came aboard this week stating he had to confess that he was now hanging with the in crowd and showed us his NITROX card." Hah! Greg Mossman <mossman@qnet.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: :"This week we had the famous Ken Kurtis from Reef Seekers with us. I :have known Ken since 1996 when we got together at a dive trade show to [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] :confess that he was now hanging with the in crowd and showed us his :NITROX card." Guess I'm the last remaining holdout then. I just think it's not worth the extra money. Dan Bracuk Never use a big word when a diminutive one will do. > Greg Mossman <moss...@qnet.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting > in: [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Guess I'm the last remaining holdout then. I just think it's not > worth the extra money. Not even on a liveaboard like the Aggressor where it's only $100 extra for the week, or in Bonaire where it's often free? Greg Mossman <mossman@qnet.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: :Not even on a liveaboard like the Aggressor where it's only $100 extra :for the week, or in Bonaire where it's often free? I figure the only benefit is more bottom time, and on over 90% of my dives, I come up because of a time limit, or because I'm out of air. This is even true on liveaboards. Dan Bracuk Never use a big word when a diminutive one will do. > I figure the only benefit is more bottom time, and on over 90% of my > dives, I come up because of a time limit, or because I'm out of air. > This is even true on liveaboards. Not just more bottom time - for a given profile, you end the dive cleaner if on nitrox. It is especially nice if you're doing u/w photo and are bouncing up and down chasing photo ops... not that I would in any way condone or recommend that! :) V. > > Guess I'm the last remaining holdout then. I just think it's not > > worth the extra money. > > Not even on a liveaboard like the Aggressor where it's only $100 extra > for the week, or in Bonaire where it's often free? It really depends on the context & cost. For example, is it worth an extra $20 per tank surcharge and its at a resort that only offers 2-3 Scheduled dives per day, and to add final insult to injury, each dive is also limited to 45 minutes max...? Ymmv. -hh > > > Guess I'm the last remaining holdout then. I just think it's not > > > worth the extra money. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Ymmv. The ops that offer it in Hawaii charge $12 a tank. I've used it on the Ed Robinson 3-tank adventure dive for the second tank, earning us a few extra minutes at the second site which is often at 80-90'. On our last trip, that meant about 5 minutes of one-to-one quality time with a big red frogfish, worth the extra $12 even without the less tangible effects that Vandit mentions. On a liveaboard where a 4-5 dives/day schedule really pushes the N2 loading, if nitrox is offered for $100, that comes out to $4 or so per tank, a 5% or so surcharge on the cost of the boat, a small price to pay for the extra bottom time, safety margin, good feelings, whatever. Most of my diving tends to be of the 3-5 dive/day variety since I tend to take dive-specific vacations to locales that cater to serious divers and offer lots of dive opportunities. Part of my selection process when choosing a particular dive operator is how they price their nitrox. Bonaire, already a big favorite of mine, gets even more kudos since many places offer nitrox for free, and the rest make it a rather nominal charge. Liveaboards, my preferred mode of dive travel, are also great deals for nitrox. Even next weekend, on a local 3-tank dive on the Lois Ann, I'll pay an extra $8/tank for nitrox just because it's there. It's rare that I do any dives on air nowadays, at most once for every ten dives. But with your $20/tank example above, I'd probably stick with air. > Greg Mossman <moss...@qnet.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting > in: [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Guess I'm the last remaining holdout then. I just think it's not > worth the extra money. There's every possibility that you might have been breathing a low O2 mix on some of your supplied tanks without even knowing it. JF JOF <jofrancis@gmail.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: :There's every possibility that you might have been breathing a low O2 :mix on some of your supplied tanks without even knowing it. Once I did know it. When Capt Jim Wyatt took us to the Adolphus Busch, he gave us nitrox at no extra charge. My computer is not nitrox compatible and I don't think I put it into deco on any of those dives. I might have, I can't remember. But that would be one of the other 10%. Dan Bracuk Never use a big word when a diminutive one will do. > JOF <jofran...@gmail.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > But that would be one of the other 10%. Occasionally ops use it for the safety margin if they know what the hard bottom is. JF > > JOF <jofran...@gmail.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Occasionally ops use it for the safety margin if they know what the > hard bottom is. A dive chick with firm gluteals? > Greg Mossman <mossman@qnet.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting > in: [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Guess I'm the last remaining holdout then. I just think it's not > worth the extra money. Its a tool. Some dives it would help, some not worth the extra money. I just completed 19 dives in Bonaire, all on nitrox. Didn't cost me an extra dime. > > Greg Mossman <moss...@qnet.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting > > in: [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > I just completed 19 dives in Bonaire, all on nitrox. Didn't cost me an > extra dime. What would have been the price point where you started to pick and choose which dives you did on nitrox, versus free air? At $1/tank surcharge, just about all of us would still do all the dives on nitrox. At $20/tank, like in Hugh's example, we might have done them all on air. I can usually live with a $4 surcharge, which is what a $100 "nitrox package" translates to if I do all 25 dives. I think I've also been happy with a $90 package when I only ended up doing 15 dives (i.e. my last Bonaire trip), which comes to $6/tank. After that, I start to pick and choose. If I run up a gas tab higher than my bar tab, I know I'm at the wrong dive op. >>>Greg Mossman <moss...@qnet.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting >>>in: [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > nitrox. At $20/tank, like in Hugh's example, we might have done them > all on air. Certainly $1 per fill is a no brainer. 20$ (more) per fill is equally at the other end of the spectrum. Depending on the dive(s) I would start looking very closely at $10 (more) per fill. I would have to sit down and do the math. If it bought me significantly more bottom time and it looked to be worth it, I would balance that in to the equation. If it cost $10 more but only bought me 3 minutes of extra bottom time, I would probably pass. I would also look at next day activities such as flying as a factor. > I can usually live with a $4 surcharge, which is what a $100 "nitrox > package" translates to if I do all 25 dives. I think I've also been > happy with a $90 package when I only ended up doing 15 dives (i.e. my > last Bonaire trip), which comes to $6/tank. After that, I start to > pick and choose. If I run up a gas tab higher than my bar tab, I know > I'm at the wrong dive op. Now thats an interesting formula. Is there some sort of nitrox mix to martini ratio you go by? > Certainly $1 per fill is a no brainer. 20$ (more) per fill is equally > at the other end of the spectrum. Depending on the dive(s) I would [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > would probably pass. I would also look at next day activities such as > flying as a factor. Good answer. Flying the day after is another reason I've ponied up for the $12 charge in Maui, but compromised by only using it on one dive out of three. It sucks that the dive ops are holding us hostage on such an important safety issue. Would it be right if you had to pay an extra charge for a boat that carried emergency O2 or a radio? Heck no, that's standard. Nitrox is practically the standard now in Bonaire what with so many places giving it away. That trend needs to spread. Down with air! > > I can usually live with a $4 surcharge, which is what a $100 "nitrox > > package" translates to if I do all 25 dives. I think I've also been [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Now thats an interesting formula. Is there some sort of nitrox mix to > martini ratio you go by? A good starting point would be to set one's target ppO2 according to the severity of the hangover. Try for 1.(X/2), where X is the number of drinks the night before. Therefore, a 12-pack post-dive celebration the previous day, means one needs to a hit a 1.6 the following morning. Anything over a 12-pack is obviously too dangerous, though I'd probably risk a bounce to 1.7 if the headache was really bad. This is much easier on a computer-controlled CCR where you can simply dial in the recommended hangover cure and enjoy it for the duration of your dive. I'm in the process of working with AP Valves to manufacture an inline device for the Inspiration that will measure the divers' residual BAC and use that to compute the ppO2 setpoint. When it's patented, I'll make millions, and no longer have to worry about nickel and diming my nitrox! Greg Mossman <mossman@qnet.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: : It sucks that the dive ops are holding us hostage :on such an important safety issue. When nitrox was being intoduced to recreational divers, I did a cruise on a Peter Hughes boat, I think it was the Wave Dancer. At the time, the introductory briefing included words to the effect of, "Peter considers nitrox to be so important to your safety that you can get it free of charge." A few years later I went on the Wind Dancer in T&C. It was now $150 for the trip or something like that. I guess ole Pete changed his opinion. Dan Bracuk Never use a big word when a diminutive one will do. > Greg Mossman <moss...@qnet.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting > in: [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > I guess ole Pete changed his opinion. Still $150 according to the PH website. Aggressors are only $100. Does the PH nitrox taste better or something? > Aggressors are only $100. Does the PH nitrox taste better or > something? Ya know, that's a great idea! Cherry flavored nitrox. Chocolate flavored nitrox. Rum flavored nitrox! Mossman, yer a genius! esg > > Aggressors are only $100. Does the PH nitrox taste better or > > something? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > esg At abucS Scuba in Brockville Ontario, on the St. Lawrence River, they used to have an oxygen bar, where you could sit down and take hits of flavored oxygen. I never tried it, so I don't remember the prices or what the various flavors were, but it seemed like a good idea. > > > Aggressors are only $100. Does the PH nitrox taste better or > > > something? [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > flavored oxygen. I never tried it, so I don't remember the prices or > what the various flavors were, but it seemed like a good idea. Sounds like a scene from Clockwork Orange. JF > > > Aggressors are only $100. Does the PH nitrox taste better or > > > something? [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > flavored oxygen. I never tried it, so I don't remember the prices or > what the various flavors were, but it seemed like a good idea. I'm sure it was a great idea... if you can convince people to pay you to breathe. > > Aggressors are only $100. Does the PH nitrox taste better or > > something? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Mossman, yer a genius! It's almost as good as flavored douche... > > > Aggressors are only $100. Does the PH nitrox taste better or > > > something? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > It's almost as good as flavored douche... Most are vinegar-based anyway. Add a little olive oil and a few grates of good Reggiano for a delicious tuna salad. > Most are vinegar-based anyway. Add a little olive oil and a few > grates of good Reggiano for a delicious tuna salad. If God hadn't meant man to eat pussy He wouldn't have shaped it like a taco... Greg Mossman <mossman@qnet.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: :Still $150 according to the PH website. : :Aggressors are only $100. Does the PH nitrox taste better or :something? Maybe it uses better soap. VK was mentioning cleanliness as a benefit of nitrox. Dan Bracuk Never use a big word when a diminutive one will do. > Greg Mossman <mossman@qnet.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting > in: [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Guess I'm the last remaining holdout then. I just think it's not > worth the extra money. For a lot of the people who are using it, it's not. The simple rule is, if ya run out of air before ya run out of time, ya don't need it. The dives I do are all extended by the use of nitrox, and it's definitely worth the money in terms of dollars per minute of bottom time. YMMV. esg > ....... > The simple rule is, if ya run out of air before ya run out of time, ya > don't need it. >....... That's what the tables say but my simple rule is it's a cleaner burning fuel. >> Guess I'm the last remaining holdout then. I just think it's not >> worth the extra money. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > YMMV. Yeah, my mileage may vary. I pay little over what air costs for Nitrox, used 32% for 4 of my dives last weekend. Pretty much a standard breathing gas, haven't used air in about a year. While I'd have had no hesitations doing the less than 30 foot dives with air or ABOs, I don't have any hesitations about using 32% either. Something about less Nitrogen being forced in and out of my older body in general. Besides, my decos are frequently shortened by using hyperoxic gas where I still get an acceptable ppO2. Compared to other costs involved in diving, Nitrox costs are negligible. Anyways, I stayed deeper than Dan, looking for those elusive jawfish burrows. ;-) Curtis |
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