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Florida Keys Trip Report - June 2007 aka Dive With Lee, Arnold, Mike, Curtis, and John

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Dan Bracuk - 03 Jul 2007 04:28 GMT
Trip Dates 2007-06-16 to 2007-07-01

The Providers

American Airlines  (http://www.aa.com)
Alamo Rent a Car (http://www.goalamo.com)
Florida Keys Vacation Rentals Inc (http://www.rentalsfloridakeys.com)
Abyss Divers (http://www.abyssdive.com)
Hall's Diving (http://www.hallsdiving.com)
Middle Keys Scuba Center (http://www.divingdiscovery.com)
Captain Hook's Marina and Dive Center (http://www.captainhooks.com)
Looe Key Reef Resort (http://www.diveflakeys.com/godiving.htm)
Innerspace Diving (http://www.diveinnerspace.com)
Quiescence Diving Service (ttp://www.keylargodiving.com)
Cristal Clear Watersports (http://www.cristalclearwatersports.com)

Summary

We spent a couple of weeks in Marathon and dove there, in Looe Key,
and off Key Largo.  During our time there we hooked up with 5 other
rec.scubans for diving and dining.  It was fun.

Preparing

In addition to figuring out how to get there and where to stay, we
also booked some dives in advance.  This is because some rec.scubans
live in Florida and have been known to join those that don't.  This
meant arranging group dives in advance without knowing who the group
was.  This was my second trip to the Keys and the only dive shop I
knew was out of business.  But, google is my freind and I was able to
locate some shops.  Diving with Hall's at least once was a high
priority because they had been bad mouthed,
(http://groups.google.ca/group/rec.scuba/browse_thread/thread/94d4a80b450667f6/77
63e60b8f176839?lnk=st&q=&rnum=1&hl=en#7763e60b8f176839
)
unjustifiably so in my opinion, in January 2007.  Also, I wanted one
of the group dives to be at Looe Key.  I found three shops on the
internet.  One didn't answer their phone.  Innerspace only took 6
passengers and that left Looe Key Reef Resort.  Even though they
turned out to have a cattle boat, they were the correct choice for
what we were doing that day.

American Airlines had an annoying feature when booking online.  My
wife's Advantage Card is in the name Patricia L. Bracuk.  The online
form didn't accept periods and if I ommitted it, the name didn't match
what they had on file.  I found that to be silly, especially since I
do that sort of programming for a living.

Looking for accomodations had it's adventures as well.  We inquired
about a number of properties but rarely got a reply.  The first reply
we got led us to attempt to book the place, but it wasn't available.
Either were our next two choices.  Eventually the agent sent us some
info about places that were available and we were in buisness.  I was
a little concerned about booking two weeks plus one day, but it turned
out to not be a problem at all.

Accommodations

Often when we visit a foreign country we stay in an all inclusive
resort and the only locals we see are the ones who work there.  This
time we took a very different approach.  We rented a local house
(http://www.rentalsfloridakeys.com/vrdetail.cfm?pid=4083), shopped at
local stores, and frequented local eateries.  This gave us an
opportunity to see what Yankees were like, up close and personal.  We
noticed a terminolgy difference, and a few instances where they could
improve their efficiency or manners.  Other than that, they were
reasonably civilized.

Our typical American house was quite nice.  It didn't have any lawns
though, perhaps Americans don't like cutting grass.  One thing that
was different than Canada was the stuff behind the house.  In Canada
you are likely to have either another house or maybe a back alley.
This house had a canal to the ocean.  I guess Yankees like boats.

Dive Shops

None of the dive shops were exceptionally good or exceptionally bad.
In fact, none were really bad at all.  They all got you out and back,
and all provided something to drink on board.  All offered unguided
dives lasting until you had 500 psi left or 60 minutes had elapsed,
whichever came first.  There were differences though.

We dove with Abyss Divers in Marathon once. This was one of the shops
that I had found on the internet before leaving and I booked a trip
with them before we left.  They had a decent boat and a friendly
captain.  There were only 5 passengers so it was spacious.  If they
filled it, it would have been crowded.  Had this shop been closer to
our house, we may have dove with them again.

We also dove with Middle Keys Scuba Centre in Marathon once. We
discovered them by driving by the shop.  It was just around the corner
from our house.  They either provided good service or no service.
When we dove with them, we were their only passengers, so that
shouldn't have been an issue.  We booked with them again, but they
cancelled on us and transferred our reservation to Hall's.  A third
time, I visited the shop but they wouldn't commit to sending a boat
out on the day we wanted to dive.

This led us to Captain Hooks, also within walking distance of our
house.  They ran a six pack (their larger boat was broke).  It was
comfortable but a little short of storage space for gear.  This meant
that we geared up consectutively instead of concurrently.  The captain
also swapped our tanks for us.  Some of you guys don't like that, but
it suits Patti and I just fine.  One thing that set this boat apart
was that they offered fruit punch in addition to water.

We dove with Hall's in Marathon thrice.  Two of these trips were
booked in advance and the third was the referral from Middle Keys
Scuba.  This was both the best and worst shop we dove with.  The bad
part was that the shop was not located near the boat so you had
another drive to make.  Worse though, was that they kept your c-cards
in the shop while you were diving so you had to go back and get it.  I
found that inconvenient.  On the plus side, they were the only shop
that had food as part of the fee.  They had sliced cantelope,
pineapple, and/or watermelon for us between dives.  On hte last day we
dove with them, they also had chocolate.

We dove Looe Key with Innerspace in Big Pine Key thrice.  They had a
six pack boat with a limited shaded area.  There was sufficient
storage space on it though, and even with six passengers it wasn't
really crowded.

We dove Looe Key on the Kokomo Cat from Looe Key Reef Resort on Ramrod
Key once.  This was a cattle boat.  There were 42 passengers, about
60% divers and 40% snorkellers.  Gearing up and swapping tanks
required co-operation and courtesy because it was crowded.  These guys
do 3 tanks, not 2 and they sell hot dogs and bottled water after the
2nd dive.  You also don't really get your full hour of bottom time per
dive because the captain announces a time to return and does not take
into account the time it takes to get everyone into the water.  One
thing I noticed though, the divers dispersed well.  Once we were in
the water, most of the time we were by ourselves.

In Key Largo, we dove with Quiescence twice.  The first time was
pre-arranged by Lee Bell, and the 2nd we booked while we were down
there.  They had comfortable six pack boats and offered valet diving
to a certain extent.  The captain would bring your gear to you so you
could do your back roll, and he also swapped tanks between dives.
While their diving cost was about average, their tank rentals were
expensive.  Plus, since their shop is on the gulf side, the boat rides
are a bit long.

Last, but not least, we dove once with Cristal Clear Watersports.
This was pre-arranged by mag3.  They had a large boat with a decent
shaded area.  There was lots of room for gear storage as well.  We had
17 passengers and were comfortable.  It may have been crowded with a
full boat but we didn't have a chance to find out.  Perhaps mag3 can
comment.  This shop is not on the highway so you might need
directions.  However, it is on the ocean side so the boat rides are
shorter.

Rec.Scubans

We met grunman581 plus wife Grace and daughter Kaitlyn.  We also met
and dove with mag3.  He came to dive with us and we accepted his
invitation to dive with his group.  That turned out to be one of the
best diving days of the trip.We hosted Lee Bell for on our first
weekend and hosted Magilla and John Hanson on the second.  They are
all nice people.  If you don't believe me, get out there and meet them
and see for yourself.

Diving

We knew we were going to have shallow dives in Looe Key and that Lee
had requested shallow dives for the first Key Largo dives, but other
than that, we didn't know what to expect.  As it turned out, we made
27 dives in 13 days and never went deeper than 30 ft.  Most of the
time, Patti left her dive computer in the house.  Mine is in my
console, but I chose to not turn it on after the first couple of days.
I have a simple waterproof watch so I can figure out the 60 minute
thing, and at that depth, there was no way to run out of bottom time.

The visibility was not as good as we had hoped.  For the first week in
Marathon and Looe Key, it was in the 20-30 ft range.  Then we went to
Key Largo and it was great.  Back to Marathon for the pre-arranged
dive and it was bad again, but at Looe Key, it had improved to the
40-50 ft range.  The next two days we dove in Key Largo and it was
great.  Then we were weathered out and the next day we dove in
Marathon.  On the first dive, the viz was only 10 ft or so, but while
we were diving, our captain was on the radio to other boats.  He moved
us a mile or two to the west and the vis was 50-60 ft, the best for
Marathon for the entire trip.  On the final weekend the vis was about
40-50 ft in Marathon but only 20-30 ft in Looe Key.

The shallow reefs in Key Largo were very nice.  It's hard to compare
them to the other two places because of the visibility differences.
However, Looe Key seemed to have a greater variety of fish.  What
little we saw of Marathon reefs were ok, but not as nice as the other
two places.

Things That Happened

On our first dive, a triggerfish came up to Patti to say hello.  Then
it started towards me.  I took a picture and then watched to see how
close it would come.  It came right up and kissed my filter.  Then it
backed off and did it again.  Then it started to look interested in my
fingers and that was the end of that.

Lee Bell and I were exchanging stories about sea dwellers grabbing
diver's fins.  I told him about the sea lion in the Galapogos and he
mentioned something about a damselfish.  Then the next day I was
trying to photograph a jawfish and something grabbed my fin.  I turned
around to see whether it was a damselfish or sea lion, but whatever it
was had swam away.  Lee was nearby but was looking the other way so he
didn't see what it was either.

I recovered three snorkels.  One I added to my collection, and the
other two had been dropped by divers from the same boat, so I returned
them.

We had big green iguanas on the dock behind our house.  They were shy
though, when spooked, they jumped in the water and ran away.

One day I looked into the water behind our house and there was a small
barracuda that appeared to be on the mooch.  I tossed him some
luncheon meat that he appeared to enjoy.

Another day there was an iguana on the dock that got annoyed at my
existance so he jumped into the water.  He swam away on the surface
and right below him was the barracuda looking up at him.  I thought it
might attack, but it didn't.  Too bad, that would have been cool.

Yankees are not very obedient.  We went to a restaurant by the water
and the signs said to not feed people food to the birds and fish.
Everyone was doing it though, even the Yankee that was with us.

We went shopping before the first Looe Key group dive, the one on the
cattle boat.  Lee bought cookies, chocolates, and toffees.  He quickly
became the most popular person on the boat when he started handing
them out to everone within range.  While offering some toffee to a
lady on the boat, he uttered the phrase, "want some candy little
girl?".  Later, Lee and I were chatting by the cooler and this lady
brought her son up and just helped herself.  We were amazed.  Turns
out though, that the lady also had a daughter who had made freinds
with grunmans's daughter, so it was ok.

Still on the cattle boat, grunman's wife got sick and skipped the last
two dives.  On the second dive, grunman and Kaitlyn were the last two
divers in the water.  They had surfaced a few dozen yards away and
were swimming in at a leisurely pace.  In the meantime, Lee had
purchased a couple of hot dogs.  When they got about 15 yards away,
Lee threw some hot dog bun near grunman which started a yellowtail
snapper feeding frenzy in his immediate vicinity.  I laughed, Grace
Shelley (aka mrs grunman) laughed.  Patti laughed.  grunman took it in
stride.  Then Lee threw another hunk of bun, plus some weiner at him,
and the fish had a feast.  This time, even Kaitlyn was lauging in the
water.  Always the good sport, grunman added to the show by pretending
to be annoyed.

At a restaurant in Key Largo, there were wooden pillars topped with
plastic cones in the water.  A seagull tried to perch on one of the
cones with varying degrees of success.  Eventually it almost fell off
and flew away.  It's one of those, you had to be there things.

Our last supper in the Keys was cooked by Magilla, and it was really
good.

There is a sunken barge in Marathon.  The first time we dove it, there
was a Sgt Major guarding it's eggs.  Less than a week later, no Sgt
Major, no eggs.  Guess they hatched, or got eaten, or both.

On that same barge, I saw a type of filefish I had never seen before.
I submitted a photo to a fish database (http://www.fishdb.co.uk) to
which I contribute.   Hopefully they will identify it.

Something else I had never seen before, were wrasses pretending to be
blennies.  I often see little blennies sticking out of holes in the
coral.  This time, I saw a couple of what appeared to be juvenile blue
headed wrasses doing the same thing.  It was pretty darn cute.

Photography

All my photography was done with natural light only.  However, this
was the first time I had taken pictures in such shallow water and I
learned a few things.  For example, sunlight will cause backscatter if
there is silt.  Also, I have a colour correction filter to take out
the blue.  It works very well at 30-50 feet, but at 15-20 feet,
sometimes I was better off without it.  This was especially true when
I had a sand background.  Fortunately it is the type that you can
install and remove underwater, so I was able to experiment and switch
when appropriate.

Conclusion

There is good diving in the Florida Keys.  If I go back, which is
reasonably likely, I'll probably stay in or near Key Largo and do most
of my diving there.

Dan Bracuk
If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure.
mag3 - 03 Jul 2007 05:00 GMT
>Last, but not least, we dove once with Cristal Clear Watersports.
>This was pre-arranged by mag3.  They had a large boat with a decent
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>directions.  However, it is on the ocean side so the boat rides are
>shorter.

I believe 18-20 would be the limit for that boat (a 42' twin diesel). Definitely *not*
cattle style as with Looe Key Reef Resort. Now it's not the only boat or facility they
have, but that happens to be the one closest to the Bayside Resort Hotel in Key Largo
where my LDS group was also staying (and where both of which are affiliated with
Cay Clubs etc.). My LDS liked them and will use them both again same time next  year.

The shop is easy to get to from near US 1 Mile Marker 99.5 (where the hotel is). But
if you call to make reservations, they will be able to tell you, rather than me trying to
explain it.

>Rec.Scubans
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>all nice people.  If you don't believe me, get out there and meet them
>and see for yourself.

As are you, Pat, and all the others.

>Our last supper in the Keys was cooked by Magilla, and it was really
>good.

Sorry I missed that.  Definitely next time.

Conclusion

>There is good diving in the Florida Keys.  If I go back, which is
>reasonably likely, I'll probably stay in or near Key Largo and do most
>of my diving there.

It's where I'll be.

____________________________________________
Regards,

Arnold
Grumman-581 - 03 Jul 2007 05:19 GMT
> American Airlines had an annoying feature when booking online.  My
> wife's Advantage Card is in the name Patricia L. Bracuk.  The online
> form didn't accept periods and if I ommitted it, the name didn't match
> what they had on file.  I found that to be silly, especially since I
> do that sort of programming for a living.

I've seen companies whose database could not handle a couple who had
different last names... Grace ended up with a credit card once that
had my last name and when we attempted to correct it, they us two new
cards, but mine had her last name on it...

> We noticed a terminolgy difference, and a few instances where they
> could improve their efficiency or manners.  Other than that, they
> were reasonably civilized.

It's that damn Yankee influence down in SoFL... It used to be a lot
better before they came down there and brought their rude ways with
them...

> Our typical American house was quite nice.  It didn't have any lawns
> though, perhaps Americans don't like cutting grass.

No, just the fact that you were living on a rock and grass doesn't
grow that well without topsoil... Plus, all the fresh water has to
come from the mainland...

> I guess Yankees like boats.

Only ones who live on rocks surrounded by water...

> Yankees are not very obedient.  We went to a restaurant by the water
> and the signs said to not feed people food to the birds and fish.
> Everyone was doing it though, even the Yankee that was with us.

And then they wonder why the seagulls sh.t in their food... Duhhh...

> Still on the cattle boat, grunman's wife got sick and skipped the last
> two dives.  On the second dive, grunman and Kaitlyn were the last two
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> water.  Always the good sport, grunman added to the show by pretending
> to be annoyed.

I'm just glad that Lee didn't decide to chum for sharks while I was
swimming back to the boat... <grin>

It was fun diving with ya'll... Kaitlyn got a real kick out of it...
Grace had a bit of a problem, but that's not surprising... She gets
motion sick rather easily... She felt a lot better once she got solid
ground underneath her... If she hadn't been wanting to puke her guts
out, she would have had a good time also... <evil-grin>
Lee Bell - 03 Jul 2007 12:02 GMT
> It's that damn Yankee influence down in SoFL... It used to be a lot
> better before they came down there and brought their rude ways with
> them...

That may be true in the rest of the south, but it's not quite right for the
Keys. There are a few groups less pleased to see strangers than the original
Conchs, but not many. If you weren't one of them, you were pretty excluded
from pretty much everything. If you weren't born in the Keys, you weren't
one of them. Even people born nearby, as I was, were only tolerated. I'm not
sure they even knew Canadians existed.

The arrival of Yankees, particularly those that owned or operated tourist
related businesses actually improved the local attitude toward outsiders.
Not everyone sees that as positive, but those visiting the Keys certainly
do. Any problems Dan and Pat had in that respect were no doubt a combination
of the abrasive (to some) nature of those that come from some parts of the
north east US, the aloof nature of those native to the Keys and the desire
of all of them to separate visitors from their money as efficiently as
possible.

>> Our typical American house was quite nice.  It didn't have any lawns
>> though, perhaps Americans don't like cutting grass.
>
> No, just the fact that you were living on a rock and grass doesn't
> grow that well without topsoil... Plus, all the fresh water has to
> come from the mainland...

Also keep in mind that this was a rental property. Grass takes maintenance
and that takes money.

> I'm just glad that Lee didn't decide to chum for sharks while I was
> swimming back to the boat... <grin>

The boat didn't sell buckets of blood. I did the best I could.

Lee
Grumman-581 - 03 Jul 2007 17:29 GMT
> Also keep in mind that this was a rental property. Grass takes maintenance
> and that takes money.

I drove around the islands a bit more on this trip checking out the
things that were not on US-1... Looking at the construction techniques
ande designs of houses around there... Even on the obviously high end
houses where it appeared that the owners actually lived there instead
of renting them out, it was common enough for lawns not to be a high
priority... Quite often the entire 'yard' was a crushed stone / sand
type media that had various tropical type plants interspersed around
the property... Considering the fact that they have to dig a hole in
rock to plant the tropical plants, I'm surprised that they even put
*that* there...

I did notice that a couple of the islands had landfills, so apparently
trash produced on the islands is resulting in higher ground for future
inhabitants... I seem to remember also encountering a sewer treatment
plant along the way, so not everything that comes down from the
mainland goes back up there... I did not see any electrical generation
plants, so apparently electricity comes from the mainland... If a
hurricane is coming in and the storm surge is expected to submerge the
island, does the electricity company cut power to the entire Keys
beforehand?  I noticed a lot of large LPG tanks at the various
properties around the islands... I take it that this means that no
natural gas pipelines go down to the islands... I did not encounter
any desalination plants and I seriously doubt that there is much of a
fresh water supply from wells in those rocks, so I suspect that all
fresh water comes from the mainland also... Are the pipelines routed
along the bridges or are they submerged as they cross the various
water areas between the various keys?

> The boat didn't sell buckets of blood. I did the best I could.

Oh well, it's the thought that counts... <grin>
Lee Bell - 03 Jul 2007 20:17 GMT
> I drove around the islands a bit more on this trip checking out the
> things that were not on US-1... Looking at the construction techniques
> ande designs of houses around there... Even on the obviously high end
> houses where it appeared that the owners actually lived there instead
> of renting them out, it was common enough for lawns not to be a high
> priority...

Few high end owners live in the Keys year 'round. The same deal applies to
those that don't. Somebody has to be paid to keep the lawns under control.

> I did not see any electrical generation plants, so apparently electricity
> comes from the mainland... If a hurricane is coming in and the storm
> surge is expected to submerge the island, does the electricity company
> cut power to the entire Keys beforehand?

You're beginning to sound like JOF. Just because you didn't see one, does
not
mean it's not there. Power for the upper Keys comes from Homestead. The
lower
Keys generate their own power. I'm not sure where the plant is. I'll leave
that as a
lesson in research before you presume.

No, they don't cut the power off to the Keys when a hurricane is on the way.
The
hurricane takes care of that for them.

> I noticed a lot of large LPG tanks at the various
> properties around the islands... I take it that this means that no
> natural gas pipelines go down to the islands...

Probably. South Florida, including the Keys, was largely developed during
the time
when all electric living was considered best. Only a small portion of S.
Florida has
natural gas pipelines. I sure wish I had it. I'd much rather have a built in
natural gas
generator than a portable gas one.

> I did not encounter any desalination plants and I seriously doubt that
> there is much
> of a fresh water supply from wells in those rocks, so I suspect that all
> fresh water
> comes from the mainland also...

Once again . . . There's a large desalinization plant in Key West. I'm not
sure how much
of the Keys is served by it and how much is served by water from the
mainland. There's
some of both.

>Are the pipelines routed along the bridges or are they submerged as they
>cross the
>various water areas between the various keys?

Some of both. There are places where you can still see the old pipelines
along side
US 1. I can't be sure, but I would not be surprised if you can still see
them under the
old Bahia Honda bridge or under the old section of the 7 mile bridge.

Lee
Grumman-581 - 03 Jul 2007 20:47 GMT
> You're beginning to sound like JOF. Just because you didn't see one, does
> not mean it's not there.

Well, I do tend to try to notice these things... Looking at fish and
coral formations is nice, but understanding the civil engineering and
logistics aspects of a new area is also interesting for some of us...

> Power for the upper Keys comes from Homestead. The
> lower Keys generate their own power. I'm not sure
> where the plant is. I'll leave that as a lesson in
> research before you presume.

Hmmm... I'll have to check it out further when I get there next
time...

> No, they don't cut the power off to the Keys when a hurricane
> is on the way.  The hurricane takes care of that for them.

So basically the winds cut the power before the flooding becomes an
issue...

> Probably. South Florida, including the Keys, was largely developed during
> the time when all electric living was considered best. Only a small portion
> of S. Florida has natural gas pipelines. I sure wish I had it. I'd much
> rather have a built in natural gas generator than a portable gas one.

Plus, even during times of disaster, either the gas lines are still
operating or they act as a large storage tank for natural gas...

> Once again . . . There's a large desalinization plant in Key West. I'm not
> sure how much of the Keys is served by it and how much is served by water
> from the mainland. There's some of both.

Interesting... In Cozumel, it was not difficult for me to stumble
across the desalination plant... I'm a bit surprised that I didn't
stumble across it in Key West during all my driving around while Grace
and Kaitlyn were shopping... I stumbled across some old bunkers on the
Navy base there... Very strange looking design (or at least what was
left of them)... Concrete stairs stretching up at a steep angle and
then ending abruptly... Probably something that used to be there
wasn't there anymore... The thing that surprised me the most though
was that there was some goats up at the top of the stairs...
Apparently, they are using the goats to 'mow' the grass that grows on
the hills...
Lee Bell - 04 Jul 2007 00:03 GMT
> So basically the winds cut the power before the flooding becomes an
> issue...

One way or the other, the results are the same. By the way, the keys don't
flood the way you're used to thinking of. We're not talking standing water,
we're talking storm surge and waves that wash completely over them, on one
side and off the other.

> Interesting... In Cozumel, it was not difficult for me to stumble
> across the desalination plant... I'm a bit surprised that I didn't
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Apparently, they are using the goats to 'mow' the grass that grows on
> the hills...

I've seen the structures you're talking about. I don't know what they are
either. Perhaps Rick knows.

Lee
Grumman-581 - 04 Jul 2007 04:22 GMT
> One way or the other, the results are the same. By the way, the keys don't
> flood the way you're used to thinking of. We're not talking standing water,
> we're talking storm surge and waves that wash completely over them, on one
> side and off the other.

Considering the size of the islands, that was exactly what I had
figured would happen... Not enough island there to end up with much in
the way of standing water afterwards... <grin>  Still, it probably
gets high enough that ground level houses would end up tripping their
breakers when the electricity shorts out... Probably good that the
transmission lines go down beforehand...

> I've seen the structures you're talking about. I don't know what they are
> either. Perhaps Rick knows.

I stopped by the base and talked with one of the MAA that was acting
as a gate guard... He said that they were old "bunkers"... I asked
whether they had been fuel or ammo bunkers... He didn't know... He was
a pretty young kid -- some of my tanks are older than him... Come to
think of it, I was out of the Navy before he was even born!
dazed and confuzzed - 04 Jul 2007 01:32 GMT
>>I drove around the islands a bit more on this trip checking out the
>>things that were not on US-1... Looking at the construction techniques
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
> natural gas
> generator than a portable gas one.

Get a large propane tank, and get a generator to run on that. It's safe,
and the fuel doesn't go bad.

Generac makes them, and I am sure that others do as well.

Signature

“TANSTAAFL”

____________________________________________________________________________

"A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for them;
The simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences." - Proverbs 22:3
____________________________________________________________________________

Lee Bell - 04 Jul 2007 02:22 GMT
> Get a large propane tank, and get a generator to run on that. It's safe,
> and the fuel doesn't go bad.

$6,000 to install a 600 gallon tank that won't run the generator as long as
100 gallons of gas will run mine. It's simply not economically sound. Piped
in natural gas, on the other hand, is.

Lee
dazed and confuzzed - 04 Jul 2007 04:23 GMT
>>Get a large propane tank, and get a generator to run on that. It's safe,
>>and the fuel doesn't go bad.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Lee

Something is wrong with those numbers.

600 gallons should run a 5 kw genset for about 400 hours, 100 gallons of
gas should run a 5 kw genset for about 100 hours each at 2/3 load.

Cost to install around here is $200.

Cost to run per hour is higher, however, with propane.

But you are right, piped natural gas is best.

Signature

“TANSTAAFL”

____________________________________________________________________________

"A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for them;
The simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences." - Proverbs 22:3
____________________________________________________________________________

Lee Bell - 04 Jul 2007 05:42 GMT
> Something is wrong with those numbers.
>
> 600 gallons should run a 5 kw genset for about 400 hours, 100 gallons of
> gas should run a 5 kw genset for about 100 hours each at 2/3 load.

My 6.5 kw continuous, 13.5 kwgenerator runs everything in my home except my
central air for 24 hours on 10 gallons, .4 gallons an hour.  The Generac is
half again as large and would run everything including my central air, but
burns 3.5 gallons of liquid propane an hour, 8.75 times what my current
generator uses or 875 gallons of propane to run it as long as 100 gallons of
gas currently does. Even if the generators were the same size, I'd still do
much better with gas than with LP.

It gets worst. You're not allowed to put 600 gallons of LP gas in a 600
gallon tank.

> Cost to install around here is $200.

I don't know what the cost to install is here, but that's not what stopped
me. The cost of the tank, combined with the relatively short run time was
the deciding factor.

Lee
dazed and confuzzed - 04 Jul 2007 14:13 GMT
>  > Something is wrong with those numbers.
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> My 6.5 kw continuous, 13.5 kwgenerator runs everything in my home except my
> central air for 24 hours on 10 gallons, .4 gallons an hour.

That is probably at about a 3.5 kw load (generally fuel rates for
gasoline gensets are rated at about half load).
 The Generac is
> half again as large and would run everything including my central air, but
> burns 3.5 gallons of liquid propane an hour

That is, I would bet, rated at full load
, 8.75 times what my current
> generator uses or 875 gallons of propane to run it as long as 100 gallons of
> gas currently does. Even if the generators were the same size, I'd still do
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Lee

Signature

“TANSTAAFL”

____________________________________________________________________________

"A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for them;
The simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences." - Proverbs 22:3
____________________________________________________________________________

Grumman-581 - 04 Jul 2007 04:35 GMT
> $6,000 to install a 600 gallon tank that won't run the generator as long as
> 100 gallons of gas will run mine.

That really seems expensive for a propane / LPG tank... Is there some
sort of significant extra expense involved with making the tank
hurricane-proof?
Scott - 04 Jul 2007 05:25 GMT
> > $6,000 to install a 600 gallon tank that won't run the generator as long as
> > 100 gallons of gas will run mine.
>
> That really seems expensive for a propane / LPG tank... Is there some
> sort of significant extra expense involved with making the tank
> hurricane-proof?

Gawd, cant we turn this into a gun thread?
Lee Bell - 04 Jul 2007 05:49 GMT
>> That really seems expensive for a propane / LPG tank... Is there some
>> sort of significant extra expense involved with making the tank
>> hurricane-proof?
>
> Gawd, cant we turn this into a gun thread?

OK.

One of the reasons the tank would be so expensive is that it has to be
buried underground where neither bullets, things turned into missiles by
hurricane force winds can penetrate it. A milspec .223 would make short work
of it and short work of anything anywhere near it.

Lee
Grumman-581 - 04 Jul 2007 06:16 GMT
> One of the reasons the tank would be so expensive is that it has to be
> buried underground where neither bullets, things turned into missiles by
> hurricane force winds can penetrate it. A milspec .223 would make short work
> of it and short work of anything anywhere near it.

Then enclose an above ground unit in a concrete block building... A
gun range that I used to go to had the walls made from concrete blocks
with sand filling the voids... Of course, it was only a handgun range,
so filling it would concrete would be best for hurricane protection...
Lee Bell - 04 Jul 2007 13:58 GMT
>> One of the reasons the tank would be so expensive is that it has to be
>> buried underground where neither bullets, things turned into missiles by
>> hurricane force winds can penetrate it. A milspec .223 would make short
>> work
>> of it and short work of anything anywhere near it.

> Then enclose an above ground unit in a concrete block building... A
> gun range that I used to go to had the walls made from concrete blocks
> with sand filling the voids... Of course, it was only a handgun range,
> so filling it would concrete would be best for hurricane protection...

So where would you suggest I put this building? It can't be on either side,
I'm as close to them as I can be and still meet code. It could be in the
back, but somehow putting a concrete building between my patio bar and the
lake would seem counterproductive. I paid a lot for that view.

Lee
Grumman-581 - 04 Jul 2007 15:17 GMT
> So where would you suggest I put this building? It can't be on either side,
> I'm as close to them as I can be and still meet code. It could be in the
> back, but somehow putting a concrete building between my patio bar and the
> lake would seem counterproductive. I paid a lot for that view.

The building only needs to be a little wider than the diameter of the
tank and not much taller than it... Perhaps putting it along the fence
line on the right side of your property (as viewed from the street)
and oriented such that the longer dimension is parallel with the fence
line in addition to it being towards the back of the lot closer to the
water?  On the other hand, you could use it as an excuse to build
yourself a workshop in the back with one section well ventilated so
that it could house the tank and another section normally enclosed for
either a workshop or a garage for your ATVs...

From Curtis' description, the UG tanks should not be that much more in
cost than the AG tanks... Unfortunately, you just need to get the hole
dug... If there is not room for the installer to get one of the small
backhoe / skid stear units in there, they would have to dig it by hand
which would probably result in increased costs...
Matthias Voss - 04 Jul 2007 08:41 GMT
>>>$6,000 to install a 600 gallon tank that won't run the generator as long
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Gawd, cant we turn this into a gun thread?

Potato gun seems adequate. Ignition by piezo lighter, reload
constant mass flow, or pump action demand valve?

Matthias
Scott - 04 Jul 2007 11:28 GMT
> > Gawd, cant we turn this into a gun thread?
>
> Potato gun seems adequate. Ignition by piezo lighter, reload
> constant mass flow, or pump action demand valve?

Constant mass flow, attenuated with a Parker ball valve.
Lee Bell - 04 Jul 2007 05:46 GMT
>> $6,000 to install a 600 gallon tank that won't run the generator as long
>> as
>> 100 gallons of gas will run mine.

> That really seems expensive for a propane / LPG tank... Is there some
> sort of significant extra expense involved with making the tank
> hurricane-proof?

It seemed expensive to me too, but that's the price that was quoted for an
in ground tank, which is what I've been led to believe is required for
residential use. As I recall, in ground tanks have to be double walled,
which I'm sure increases the cost as well. I researched this a bit when a
friend offered me a good deal on a Guardian/Generac he had recently bought
new and never installed. When I looked into the total cost, I understood
why. He didn't have natural gas service either.

Lee
Grumman-581 - 04 Jul 2007 06:13 GMT
> It seemed expensive to me too, but that's the price that was quoted for an
> in ground tank, which is what I've been led to believe is required for
> residential use.

I can see how an in ground tank would be more expensive... All the
rural locations that I'm familar with have above ground tanks... I
suspect that you could make an above ground tank hurricane-proof by
putting a concrete filled and rebar reinforced concrete block wall /
building around it... I'm not sure about the sizes that I saw in the
Keys, but they were definitely above ground units... I didn't check
them out to see how well they were secured to the ground either...

> As I recall, in ground tanks have to be double walled,
> which I'm sure increases the cost as well. I researched this a bit when a
> friend offered me a good deal on a Guardian/Generac he had recently bought
> new and never installed. When I looked into the total cost, I understood
> why. He didn't have natural gas service either.

The A&P that did my aircraft's annual inspection when I was over in
the New Orleans area lived at a private airport in southern MS, just
north of the Stennis Space Center... He had acquired a large skid
mounted diesel generator like you see for oil rig sites and such... It
looked something like this:
http://www.dieselserviceandsupply.com/Used-Generators/Caterpillar-100-30A05001.aspx
Best I remember, it was at least 60KW... I suspect that he got a
chance to use it after Katrina...
Lee Bell - 04 Jul 2007 13:52 GMT
> I can see how an in ground tank would be more expensive... All the
> rural locations that I'm familar with have above ground tanks... I
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Keys, but they were definitely above ground units... I didn't check
> them out to see how well they were secured to the ground either...

I'm sure you could if building and zoning laws would allow.

Lee
Art Greenberg - 04 Jul 2007 11:44 GMT
> >> $6,000 to install a 600 gallon tank that won't run the generator as long
> >> as
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>  new and never installed. When I looked into the total cost, I understood
>  why. He didn't have natural gas service either.

Around here (NJ) with new construction, the propane companies supply the
tank and install it for free. The company that installs the tank retains
ownership of it.  You have to sign a long-term (10 year IIRC) contract
to take delivieries only from them. And if you want to change to a
different supplier during the term of the contract, you have to pay to
have the tank removed and returned to the original supplier.

I don't know if the same sort of deal can be had for an installation at
an existing house.

This probably doesn't make economic sense in FL, where you're unlikely
to use 1200 gallons or more a year ...

Signature

Art Greenberg
artg at eclipse dot net

Magilla - 04 Jul 2007 13:39 GMT
>>> $6,000 to install a 600 gallon tank that won't run the generator as long
>>> as
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> new and never installed. When I looked into the total cost, I understood
> why. He didn't have natural gas service either.

   Then he probably bought his own tank.

   Common sizes for (ASME) LP gas tanks for domestic use are 50, 120, 250,
500 & 1000, have also encountered 115 and 330.

   DOT tanks are usually rated in lbs, legal to transport full, have a
higher WP, and are not approved for direct burial.  These are what your bbq
tanks are, and range in size from 5 to 420 lbs capacity of LPG.

   Underground tanks differ mainly in the valves are all located under a
two piece dome, where above ground tanks usually have a one piece dome that
covers the fill & service, often having the pressure relief valve outside
the dome a ways.  Many tanks are built AG / UG.  Pressure ratings are the
same, 250 psi WP, except in Kalifornia, where they have their own set of
rules.  UG tanks are generally tarred, where white or silver paint is the
norm for an AG.  Reason for this is to reflect sunlight.  As LPG is stored
as a liquid under pressure, and the volume expands about 3% for every 10 deg
F, AG tanks are generally filled only to 80%, where UG tanks can be filled
to 90%.  Since the specific gravity of LPG is about .509, as compared to
water, LPG will float.  Because of that, tanks possibly affected by the
water table are generally anchored in place "mobile home style" before the
fill is returned.  (Some codes may have changed since I was active in that
area of the business.)

   LPG is considered "sweet" as it does not corrode its container.  Storage
time indefinite.  BTUs per gallon compared to gasoline is 92,600 to
108,000ish, octane is about 110, engines typically have double life when
burning LPG or CNG due to far cleaner combustion.  Side note, generators may
have a lower max output when run on Nat Gas as opposed to LPG, related to
the 1050 to 2516 BTU per CF vapor.

   Back when I worked directly for a gas company, two of my cars were dual
fuel (gasoline & LPG), and one was LPG only.  Basically the same idea as a
generator engine except for due to engine size, fuel was delivered in liquid
state and run through a vaporizer before delivery to the carburetor,
something I've seen on large commercial generators, where most domestic
generators draw vapor from the tank.

Curtis
Lee Bell - 04 Jul 2007 13:56 GMT
>> It seemed expensive to me too, but that's the price that was quoted for
>> an in ground tank, which is what I've been led to believe is required for
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>> bought new and never installed. When I looked into the total cost, I
>> understood why. He didn't have natural gas service either.

>    Then he probably bought his own tank.

You missed the part about never installed. The cost stopped him too.

> AGtanks are generally filled only to 80%, where UG tanks can be filled to
> 90%.

Thanks for that. I knew there was a difference, I didn't remember the
details. Down here, they won't fill an above ground tank above 80%. I don't
know if it's policy or regulation, but the effect is the same.
Magilla - 04 Jul 2007 14:01 GMT
>>    Then he probably bought his own tank.

> You missed the part about never installed. The cost stopped him too.

   Not really, just should have written as was priced as buying his own
tank.  :-)
Dan Bracuk - 03 Jul 2007 22:54 GMT
"Lee Bell" <pleebell@bellsouth.net> pounded away at his keyboard
resulting in:

: Any problems Dan and Pat had in that respect were no doubt a combination
:of the abrasive (to some) nature of those that come from some parts of the
:north east US, the aloof nature of those native to the Keys and the desire
:of all of them to separate visitors from their money as efficiently as
:possible.

My major complaint was that y'all were too inefficient in separtating
me from my money.

Dan Bracuk
If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure.
Lee Bell - 04 Jul 2007 00:04 GMT
> : Any problems Dan and Pat had in that respect were no doubt a combination
> :of the abrasive (to some) nature of those that come from some parts of
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> My major complaint was that y'all were too inefficient in separtating
> me from my money.

We'll try to do better next time.

Lee
Dan Bracuk - 03 Jul 2007 22:54 GMT
Grumman-581 <grumman581@DIE-SPAMMER-SCUM-gmail.com> pounded away at
his keyboard resulting in:
:It was fun diving with ya'll... Kaitlyn got a real kick out of it...
:Grace had a bit of a problem, but that's not surprising... She gets
:motion sick rather easily... She felt a lot better once she got solid
:ground underneath her... If she hadn't been wanting to puke her guts
:out, she would have had a good time also... <evil-grin>

Did you have a chance to show them the pix yet?  Sorry for shooting
into the sun, but that's the direction they approached from and I was
too lazy to get everyone into the proper position.

Dan Bracuk
If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure.
Grumman-581 - 04 Jul 2007 04:13 GMT
> Did you have a chance to show them the pix yet?  Sorry for shooting
> into the sun, but that's the direction they approached from and I was
> too lazy to get everyone into the proper position.

Yep, I passed it on as soon as I saw you posted it... Grace seems to
think that you caught her in the middle of a panic attack...
Dan Bracuk - 04 Jul 2007 22:09 GMT
Grumman-581 <grumman581@DIE-SPAMMER-SCUM-gmail.com> pounded away at
his keyboard resulting in:
:Yep, I passed it on as soon as I saw you posted it... Grace seems to
:think that you caught her in the middle of a panic attack...

That's pretty much how I remembered it too.

Dan Bracuk
Never use a big word when a diminutive one will do.
Grumman-581 - 05 Jul 2007 20:06 GMT
> That's pretty much how I remembered it too.

For some reason, she gets motion sick very easily... Even when I drive
around the spiral ramps on parking garages... Being sick underwater is
no fun... Unfortunately, it gets worse when you get back aboard... Oh
well, at least Kaitlyn had some fun...
Dan Bracuk - 05 Jul 2007 23:23 GMT
Grumman-581 <grumman581@DIE-SPAMMER-SCUM-gmail.com> pounded away at
his keyboard resulting in:

: Oh well, at least Kaitlyn had some fun...

That's right.  She was the only one mentioning that she saw a ray at
Looe Key.  I saw some on my last trip but not this one.

She seemed to like the jawfish too.  Have to teach Curtis how to find
them one day.

Dan Bracuk
Never use a big word when a diminutive one will do.
Grumman-581 - 05 Jul 2007 23:45 GMT
> That's right.  She was the only one mentioning that she saw a ray at
> Looe Key.  I saw some on my last trip but not this one.

Actually, we saw a pair of them swimming together...
Dan Bracuk - 06 Jul 2007 00:24 GMT
Grumman-581 <grumman581@DIE-SPAMMER-SCUM-gmail.com> pounded away at
his keyboard resulting in:

:Actually, we saw a pair of them swimming together...

What type of rays did they look like to you?

Dan Bracuk
Never use a big word when a diminutive one will do.
Grumman-581 - 06 Jul 2007 06:06 GMT
> What type of rays did they look like to you?

Medium sized ones...
Dan Bracuk - 04 Jul 2007 00:25 GMT
Grumman-581 <grumman581@DIE-SPAMMER-SCUM-gmail.com> pounded away at
his keyboard resulting in:

:> Our typical American house was quite nice.  It didn't have any lawns
:> though, perhaps Americans don't like cutting grass.
:
:No, just the fact that you were living on a rock and grass doesn't
:grow that well without topsoil... Plus, all the fresh water has to
:come from the mainland...

A couple of years ago we went to Arizona and it was the same there.
It's not as this was an isolated observation.

Dan Bracuk
If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure.
Grumman-581 - 04 Jul 2007 04:28 GMT
> A couple of years ago we went to Arizona and it was the same there.
> It's not as this was an isolated observation.

You need to try visiting places with abundant fresh water supplies...
I here Kansas would fit that requirement lately... <grin>

I with we could get away with the rock yards here in the Houston
area... Unfortunately, we would still have to water them so that the
soil underneath our houses didn't shift...
Lee Bell - 03 Jul 2007 11:51 GMT
> Diving with Hall's at least once was a high priority because they had been
> bad mouthed, unjustifiably so in my opinion, in January
> 2007.

Most that responded agree with you.

> Often when we visit a foreign country we stay in an all inclusive
> resort and the only locals we see are the ones who work there.  This
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> improve their efficiency or manners.  Other than that, they were
> reasonably civilized.

Keep calling people in Florida Yankees and you're likely to experience more
of those bad manners. 8^)
You were in the Keys, where efficiency has not, historically, been a high
priority. If you noticed much efficiency at all, assume that it was brought
to the Keys by the real Yankees.

> Worse though, was that they kept your c-cards in the shop while you were
> diving so you had to go back and get it.  I
> found that inconvenient.

They didn't keep my card, perhaps because I didn't rent any equipment from
them. Looe Key Reef Resort did keep my card. I agree that it was
inconvenient.

> Yankees are not very obedient.  We went to a restaurant by the water
> and the signs said to not feed people food to the birds and fish.
> Everyone was doing it though, even the Yankee that was with us.

I don't remember any Yankees with us. We were eating bird and fish food,
clearly not included in the prohibition against feeding people food to the
animals.

> plus some weiner at him . . .

No weiner. At a dollar each, I didn't waste any meat.

> On that same barge, I saw a type of filefish I had never seen before.
> I submitted a photo to a fish database (http://www.fishdb.co.uk) to
> which I contribute.   Hopefully they will identify it.

Not having seen a picture of it, I can't be sure, but my guess would be that
it was just a different maturity phase of one you're familiar with. If you
have a picture on a website, send me a link and I'll see if I can help.

Glad you came down and glad you had a good time. Meeting you and Pat was a
special treat and well worth the drive down. You offer to host me, Magilla
and John was both generous and appreciated. It gave us an even better chance
to get to know each other. Thanks.

It's a shame you're not still down here. Tomorrow morning, Jayna and I are
taking our 15 foot boat to the west coast, up north of Tampa, to visit my
father and chase bay scallops. We won't bother with tanks, if we find them
at all, they'll be in snorkeling depth water. Chasing scallops is a
different, highly enjoyable sport. They don't swim fast, but they do swim.

Lee
Dan Bracuk - 03 Jul 2007 23:00 GMT
"Lee Bell" <pleebell@bellsouth.net> pounded away at his keyboard
resulting in:

:previous post was about a triggerfish

:Not having seen a picture of it , I can't be sure, but my guess would be that
:it was just a different maturity phase of one you're familiar with. If you
:have a picture on a website, send me a link and I'll see if I can help.

http://www.fishdb.co.uk/findpicture.php?exact=true&picid=1458

Dave Cullen, who runs this site said something similar when he
ackowleged receiving the images.  He also mentioned that he is asking
a smart person for help.  If we check the db in a week or so it will
probably be identified.  You can search by fish type, filefish, or by
contributor, me.

Dan Bracuk
If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure.
Lee Bell - 04 Jul 2007 00:19 GMT
> :Not having seen a picture of it , I can't be sure, but my guess would be
> that
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> probably be identified.  You can search by fish type, filefish, or by
> contributor, me.

Now that I've seen it, I still don't know what it is. There's probably a
dozen different filefish, several of which have very different color phases
as they mature and some of which change color depending on their environment
and stress level. I did better at eliminating some that these are not than I
did figuring out what they are.

Lee
bracuk@axxent.ca - 05 Jul 2007 00:39 GMT
> :Not having seen a picture of it , I can't be sure, but my guess would be that
> :it was just a different maturity phase of one you're familiar with. If you
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> probably be identified.  You can search by fish type, filefish, or by
> contributor, me.

It's been identified as an Orange Filefish.  I should have some
pictures up on my own web site later tonight.
George Cathcart - 03 Jul 2007 12:14 GMT
> Trip Dates 2007-06-16 to 2007-07-01
>
[quoted text clipped - 287 lines]
> ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----http://www.newsfeeds.comThe #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
> ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

Great report, Dan. Helpful information at every stage.

One point of clarification, I doubt that the reptiles on your back
fence were iguanas, since the only iguanas known to swim are the
marine iguanas in the Galapagos, as far as I know. Did you get any
pictures? I'd be curious to know what they were and how big they
were.

Oh, one other point to be careful of, I know to you all of us are
Yankees, but those of us who are true Yankees don't particularly like
to have the southern population lumped in with us. They are a separate
culture, much like the Quebecois in Canada, but less refined.

Cheers,

gc
Grumman-581 - 03 Jul 2007 17:31 GMT
> Oh, one other point to be careful of, I know to you all of us are
> Yankees, but those of us who are true Yankees don't particularly like
> to have the southern population lumped in with us. They are a separate
> culture, much like the Quebecois in Canada, but less refined.

So, eating cheese curds and gravy over fries is considered
"refined"... OK, thanks anyway, but I'll pass...
Dan Bracuk - 03 Jul 2007 23:13 GMT
George Cathcart <george.cathcart@gmail.com> pounded away at his
keyboard resulting in:

:One point of clarification, I doubt that the reptiles on your back
:fence were iguanas, since the only iguanas known to swim are the
:marine iguanas in the Galapagos, as far as I know. Did you get any
:pictures? I'd be curious to know what they were and how big they
:were.

This page, http://www.pathcom.com/~bracuk/other/index.htm, has links
to two photographs I took of marine iguanas in the Galapagos.  As a
matter of interest, these images are scanned prints, I was still using
film for land photography at the time.

This, http://www.pathcom.com/~u1072675/iguana1.jpg, was taken on our
back dock in Marathon.  It was a foot and a half or so long.  It could
swim.

Dan Bracuk
If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure.
George Cathcart - 03 Jul 2007 23:17 GMT
> George Cathcart <george.cathc...@gmail.com> pounded away at his
> keyboard resulting in:
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----http://www.newsfeeds.comThe #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
> ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

I stand corrected.  Thank you. I was going on old data -- notably
Darwin, who had not seen iguanas swim before he saw them in the
Galapagos. It's not the same species (I think yours is a green iguana,
native to the Caribbean), but it is an iguana.

gc
Grumman-581 - 04 Jul 2007 04:12 GMT
> I stand corrected.  Thank you. I was going on old data -- notably
> Darwin, who had not seen iguanas swim before he saw them in the
> Galapagos. It's not the same species (I think yours is a green iguana,
> native to the Caribbean), but it is an iguana.

I read an article recently about the problem that SoFL is having with
iguanas... Seems that they are not a native species... Basically
people having them as pets and then letting them go when they get too
big... Didn't take too long for a male iguana to find a female iguana
and next thing you know, he's flipping through the channels trying to
find Johnny Carson on TV...
Lee Bell - 04 Jul 2007 00:26 GMT
> George Cathcart <george.cathcart@gmail.com> pounded away at his
> keyboard resulting in:
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> back dock in Marathon.  It was a foot and a half or so long.  It could
> swim.

Looked like a green iguana to me. We have them all over my boat club and
sometimes seen them in my neighborhood. They swim quite well.

Lee
Magilla - 04 Jul 2007 00:46 GMT
> Looked like a green iguana to me. We have them all over my boat club and
> sometimes seen them in my neighborhood. They swim quite well.

   best part is Dan still think those were salmon steaks they had for
dinner.  <evil grin>

Curtis
Dan Bracuk - 04 Jul 2007 01:20 GMT
"\"Magilla\"" <cavey_curtis@$$ yahoo.com> pounded away at his keyboard
resulting in:

:> Looked like a green iguana to me. We have them all over my boat club and
:> sometimes seen them in my neighborhood. They swim quite well.
:
:    best part is Dan still think those were salmon steaks they had for
:dinner.  <evil grin>

Patti liked them so much that she instructed me to take back half the
bad things I said about you.  Since she doesn't read this ng, I guess
I'll be doing that.

Dan Bracuk
If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure.
Magilla - 04 Jul 2007 02:53 GMT
> :> Looked like a green iguana to me. We have them all over my boat club
> and
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> bad things I said about you.  Since she doesn't read this ng, I guess
> I'll be doing that.

   Now that made my day.

   I'm not much of a fish eater, so when I grill it it's usually for my
wife and daughter, without the benefit of learning first hand how it comes
out.  Now the beef steaks, that's another story, at home I sample as I cook.
:-)

   But I didn't hear you say anything bad about me, so guess I'll have to
get John drunk next trip to see if he'll spill the beans.  I wonder if
there's enough beer in all the Keys to accomplish that?

Curtis
Scott - 04 Jul 2007 03:06 GMT
> But I didn't hear you say anything bad about me, so guess I'll have to
> get John drunk next trip to see if he'll spill the beans.  I wonder if
> there's enough beer in all the Keys to accomplish that?

Liquor is quicker.
Dan Bracuk - 04 Jul 2007 03:36 GMT
"\"Magilla\"" <cavey_curtis@$$ yahoo.com> pounded away at his keyboard
resulting in:

:    I'm not much of a fish eater,

Tastes a lot like iguana.

Dan Bracuk
If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure.
Magilla - 04 Jul 2007 12:50 GMT
> :    I'm not much of a fish eater,
>
> Tastes a lot like iguana.

   Amazing what "Montreal Steak Seasoning" can do.......
John Hanson - 05 Jul 2007 00:45 GMT
>> :> Looked like a green iguana to me. We have them all over my boat club
>> and
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>get John drunk next trip to see if he'll spill the beans.  I wonder if
>there's enough beer in all the Keys to accomplish that?

I told you a six pack wasn't enough.  Then I told you a twelve pack
wasn't enough.  I was right, wasn't I?

;-)
ben bradlee - 03 Jul 2007 14:18 GMT
> Trip Dates 2007-06-16 to 2007-07-01

> This gave us an opportunity to see what Yankees were like, up close
> and personal.  ... they were reasonably civilized.

Interesting report Dan.  It would have been fun to be there.

By the way, do Canadians phrase things the same way as the Brits?  Didn't
King George III make a similar statement about the Yanks in 1776?  Oh, no
matter, it would have been fun to be there.
Dan Bracuk - 03 Jul 2007 23:06 GMT
"ben bradlee" <NoWay@Way.Bite.Me> pounded away at his keyboard
resulting in:

:By the way, do Canadians phrase things the same way as the Brits?  Didn't
:King George III make a similar statement about the Yanks in 1776?  Oh, no
:matter, it would have been fun to be there.

Canadians spell like Brits.  Favour instead of favor, for example.

A Canadian vocabulary is more American than British.  Our cars have
hoods and trunks, not boots and bonnets.

A Canadian will use French pronounciations where it looks appropriate.
There is a town in Maine named Calais.   Americans pronounce it
CAL-les.  Canadians pronounce it cal-LAY.

Dan Bracuk
If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure.
Lee Bell - 04 Jul 2007 00:20 GMT
> A Canadian will use French pronounciations where it looks appropriate.
> There is a town in Maine named Calais.   Americans pronounce it
> CAL-les.  Canadians pronounce it cal-LAY.

Some Americans pronounce it calLAY too. On the other hand, I can't even
duplicate your pronunciation of Islamorada.

Lee
Dan Bracuk - 04 Jul 2007 01:00 GMT
"Lee Bell" <pleebell@bellsouth.net> pounded away at his keyboard
resulting in:

:Some Americans pronounce it calLAY too. On the other hand, I can't even
:duplicate your pronunciation of Islamorada.

Just like it's spelled:

Iz
LAM
uh
rad
duh

And the next key to the west of Key Largo is Tavernier

Tah
VERN
yay

with an alternate pronounciantion of
Tah
vern
YAY

Dan Bracuk
If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure.
Greg Mossman - 04 Jul 2007 04:27 GMT
> > A Canadian will use French pronounciations where it looks appropriate.
> > There is a town in Maine named Calais.   Americans pronounce it
> > CAL-les.  Canadians pronounce it cal-LAY.
>
> Some Americans pronounce it calLAY too. On the other hand, I can't even
> duplicate your pronunciation of Islamorada.

So how is it pronounced?  I just found out there's an Islamorada Fish
Company opening up nearby and I really have no idea whether it's
pronounced French or Spanish style.  Is it "I-la" or "Is-la"?
John Hanson - 05 Jul 2007 00:58 GMT
>> > A Canadian will use French pronounciations where it looks appropriate.
>> > There is a town in Maine named Calais.   Americans pronounce it
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>Company opening up nearby and I really have no idea whether it's
>pronounced French or Spanish style.  Is it "I-la" or "Is-la"?

I'll Morada.
Matthias Voss - 05 Jul 2007 08:12 GMT
>>>>A Canadian will use French pronounciations where it looks appropriate.
>>>>There is a town in Maine named Calais.   Americans pronounce it
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> I'll Morada.

When did the French conquer it?

Matthias
Scott - 06 Jul 2007 03:04 GMT
> When did the French conquer it?

That will be one Logitech keyboard, added to your tab.
JOF - 04 Jul 2007 01:05 GMT
> "ben bradlee" <N...@Way.Bite.Me> pounded away at his keyboard
> resulting in:
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> There is a town in Maine named Calais.   Americans pronounce it
> CAL-les.  Canadians pronounce it cal-LAY.

Pierre & Minot. I couldn't make a local cop understand what I was
asking directions for.

JF
Dan Bracuk - 05 Jul 2007 03:00 GMT
Pictures from this trip available at
http://www.pathcom.com/~bracuk/index.htm.  The picture on the home
page was shot by rec.scuba's very own grunman581.  

Dan Bracuk
Never use a big word when a diminutive one will do.
Grumman-581 - 05 Jul 2007 07:53 GMT
> Pictures from this trip available at
> http://www.pathcom.com/~bracuk/index.htm.  The picture on the home
> page was shot by rec.scuba's very own grunman581.  

Is your nose sunburned or did you just have a bit too much to drink?
<grin>
 
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