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Scuba Forum / General / July 2007

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Kid Divers & Refreshers

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CasperQ - 01 Jul 2007 14:07 GMT
Two questions in one post, please, for those who have knowledge to
share and spare...

First question: how young can kiddos be certified, and what are the
particular challenges?

Second question: I'd like a refresher before booking my self-promised
scuba holiday - any recommendations for the NW Houston/Tomball area?

Thanks y'all!
Grumman-581 - 01 Jul 2007 14:52 GMT
> First question: how young can kiddos be certified, and what are the
> particular challenges?

My daughter was certified a couple of months ago and she's 12... It's
classified as a Jr. Open Water Diver Certification with SSI and the only
limit is that she must be diving with a regular OW diver... Since I
wouldn't let her dive without me closely supervising her anyway, this is
not an issue... At a later date (when she turns 14 IIRC), she can get a
full OW certification by just dropping by the dive shop... We went with
Houston SCUBA Academy, but I would not necessarily recommend them if you
swimming in a pool that can bleach your eyeballs... She didn't have any
problems with the class since I had taken her on escorted dives with me
previously, thus the skills came easy for her... The book portion is not
difficult, but I had her read through the entire book prior to taking the
class and went over everything with her to ensure that she knew everything
*before* taking the class... Currently, we are making our way back from a
Florida Keys diving trip, diving various springs along the way as we drive
back... We dove Blue Springs yesterday... We stayed near St. Augustine, FL
last night and will probably end up at Jackson Blue Spring in Marianna, FL
later today...

> Second question: I'd like a refresher before booking my self-promised
> scuba holiday - any recommendations for the NW Houston/Tomball area?

Just get your gear and go jump in... Your best best for that area is
probably Blue Lagoon up in Huntsville... Our choices in Houston for water
with visibility that is not totally crappy is rather limited...
Dan Bracuk - 02 Jul 2007 02:59 GMT
CasperQ <casperq@gmail.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in:
:Two questions in one post, please, for those who have knowledge to
:share and spare...
:
:First question: how young can kiddos be certified, and what are the
:particular challenges?

Probably the biggest challenge is lifting the tank.  

Dan Bracuk
If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure.
Dillon Pyron - 02 Jul 2007 04:59 GMT
>Two questions in one post, please, for those who have knowledge to
>share and spare...
>
>First question: how young can kiddos be certified, and what are the
>particular challenges?

12 for PADI Jr. Open Water.  I won't teach that young.  No attention
span, not enough maturity to understand the concepts, too immortal to
deal with the consequences.

>Second question: I'd like a refresher before booking my self-promised
>scuba holiday - any recommendations for the NW Houston/Tomball area?
>
>Thanks y'all!
Signature

dillon

Broadway Photo sucks.  Ask me why.

El Stroko Guapo - 02 Jul 2007 14:50 GMT
>>Two questions in one post, please, for those who have knowledge to
>>share and spare...
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> span, not enough maturity to understand the concepts, too immortal to
> deal with the consequences.

If those are yer criteria, they eliminate about 65% of diving candidates.

My experience with kids (including my son) is that they pick up the
skills quickly and master them very well. They also understand the basic
physics and physiology, if presented right, even though they don't have
high school physics.

But yer point about immortality is right on, and they should be
accompanied by an experienced diver until about age 30.

esg
Lee Bell - 02 Jul 2007 15:53 GMT
>> 12 for PADI Jr. Open Water.  I won't teach that young.  No attention
>> span, not enough maturity to understand the concepts, too immortal to
>> deal with the consequences.

> If those are yer criteria, they eliminate about 65% of diving candidates.

I'll vote for that. Hell, there would have been much more room on the cattle
boat we used to dive Looe Key.

> My experience with kids (including my son) is that they pick up the skills
> quickly and master them very well. They also understand the basic physics
> and physiology, if presented right, even though they don't have high
> school physics.

At 12?

My stepson was holy hell at 12. He didn't straighten out until just before
he turned 16. He didn't live much after that. His sense of immortality
caught up with him in an encounter between his motorcycle and a guard rail.
He flew more than 100 feet before he hit the ground. He never regained
consciousness.

> But yer point about immortality is right on, and they should be
> accompanied by an experienced diver until about age 30.

I was closer to 40 when it was finally safe to let me loose on my own. Lucky
for me, none of the stunts I pulled in my bullet proof stage conclusively
proved I wasn't as bullet proof as I thought.

Lee
Chris Guynn - 02 Jul 2007 21:11 GMT
> >>Two questions in one post, please, for those who have knowledge to
> >>share and spare...
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> esg

Whew.  As of last October I can dive without being supervised.
Dillon Pyron - 05 Jul 2007 03:51 GMT
>>>Two questions in one post, please, for those who have knowledge to
>>>share and spare...
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
>If those are yer criteria, they eliminate about 65% of diving candidates.

Haven't we already had this discussion about how lax scuba has gotten
since the dark ages when we had to inflate our tanks with a bicycle
pump?  Everything PADI touches turns to either sh.t or gold, depending
on whether they plan on keeping it?

OTOH, it's all those suckers who take the classes that pay for my
vacations.  And those suckers who buy that expensive gear that make it
easy for me to buy it for 50% off, barely used, on eBay.

>My experience with kids (including my son) is that they pick up the
>skills quickly and master them very well. They also understand the basic
>physics and physiology, if presented right, even though they don't have
>high school physics.

Okay, this was actually one of those YMMV statements.  That's the
problem with absolute statements.

>But yer point about immortality is right on, and they should be
>accompanied by an experienced diver until about age 30.
>
>esg
Signature

dillon

Broadway Photo sucks.  Ask me why.

mag3 - 02 Jul 2007 22:13 GMT
>>First question: how young can kiddos be certified, and what are the
>>particular challenges?
>
>12 for PADI Jr. Open Water.  I won't teach that young.  No attention
>span, not enough maturity to understand the concepts, too immortal to
>deal with the consequences.

Yepper.  Emotional Maturity would be a major factor IMHO. Mastering the art of
"cool under pressure."  The last thing one needs to do is panic. As I'm sure you know,
underwater, panic can kill you quick, and it can kill you DEAD!

It's one reason why I'm having 2nd thoughts about starting my (soon to be 11 y/o) niece.
I wittnessed an incident where she was having a bad day playing the Wii bowling game,
and as things got worse, she started to get more and more frustrated and keep losing
her concentration ----> Viscious cycle----> Anger---> more frustration ---> more anger
until she decided to take it out on a folding chair (which didn't stay upright or unfolded
for very long). Now, I'm told she "usually gets over it right away" and "regrets her actions"
but at 40+ fsw, it might be too late for regrets.  

She's going to have to master that "anger mgt." thing before I'll take her anywhere near water.

____________________________________________
Regards,

Arnold
news - 04 Jul 2007 14:27 GMT
>>Two questions in one post, please, for those who have knowledge to
>>share and spare...
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> span, not enough maturity to understand the concepts, too immortal to
> deal with the consequences.

PADI Jr Open Water Diver minimum age is 10.    They have to meet all the
same requirements as Open Water Diver plus watch an additional video about
responsibilities and risks with the parent.  Certification dives for 10 & 11
year olds can't exceed 40 ft.  After certification 10 & 11 year olds must
dive with a parent, guardian , or PADI professional and their dives must not
exceed 40 ft.

I wouldn't discount them because of their age.  You really have to evaluate
each kid to see if they can understand the concepts, some can handle it,
some can't.  I certified my daughter at 11 and is still diving with me today
at age 13 and doing great.

Jay
Ron T - 02 Jul 2007 10:41 GMT
> First question: how young can kiddos be certified, and what are the
> particular challenges?

10, through PADI or NAUI but the instructor has a huge degree of
descrestion to refuse them based on maturity and skill.  YMCA is 12, bot
sure about SSI.

The course is the same as any adult takes (which means either the kids
are really smart or PADI has dumbed down the material to a child's
level. Though I suspect the latter.

Kid divers have shallow depth limits (40-ft) and are required to be
accompanied by a certified adult diver. Gear fitting can be a challenge,
but a 50cf tank helps.
Star - 07 Jul 2007 07:49 GMT
> In article <1183295241.149440.236...@n60g2000hse.googlegroups.com>,
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> descrestion to refuse them based on maturity and skill.  YMCA is 12, bot
> sure about SSI.

NAUI is age 12 as well, and I don;t see that changing in the future.
I don't do jr diver certs.  My own sons learned to dive, and not from
me, at ages 15 and 16. Once they had finished OW, I did AOW and nitrox
with them both - nitrox once they were 18. And I must say, they are
good divers and great dive buddies.  I didn't want them ever to feel
that either my husband or I were the "parent" in a dive situation - I
wanted them to know that they were a buddy, with equal responsibility
for a dive snce none of us do trust-me dives.

Article from Kelly Hill, below, covering the medical rationale, with
which I am not qualified to either agree or refute.

I can, however, speak from 20 years of dealing with kids aged 13-18 on
a daily basis. Most are not, for various reasons of maturity, physical
size and strength, reasoning ability, and comprehension of risk and
responsibility, ready to dive before age 15-16, about the time you'd
consider trusting them with your car.

MEDICAL ANSWERS, By R. Kelly Hill, Jr., M.D., F.A.C.M., NAUI #9243
"Little kids shouldn't dive. There, I've typed it so that it is very
clear. Just like pregnancy, being a human-in-progress is a
contraindication to diving. There are two rational reasons based upon
diving physiology, and one irrational reason for my position on
[youngsters] diving.
Rational Reason #1: The DCS risk for juveniles is unknown, and there
are no decompression tables or algorithms developed specifically for
them. When experts in diving medicine get together to look at
incidence rates, causal factors and risk analysis, there is little
consensus - and that is for adults not our children. The historical
data collected on the few children who have dived is a very inadequate
sample to determine if children have more or less risk than adults.
Animal experiments have not been particularly helpful in determining
the relative incidence of DCS in this group when compared to adults.
Remember that the basic concept behind the development of
decompression tables is whether or not the test group got bent using
[a particular] schedule. Those groups tend to be relatively small [in
number], until recently were exclusively male, and no one in his right
mind would include children in a test group...
Rational Reason #2: Juveniles have a unique tissue risk for
decompression sickness. Though all of a juvenile's tissues are in
transition, one tissue type in particular is at potential risk for
DCS: bone. As the skeleton grows , it does so by lengthening bones at
their ends, through the growth plates. Just like with other tissues,
if something, such as a bubble, damages this tissue or its blood
supply, the tissue fails. The growth plate has its own set of on and
off-gassing parameters, and they are ones that were not necessarily
included in the testing of decompression schedules. If a growth plate
dies, that bone does not grow from that end and the bone is
permanently distorted. If the distortion is significant, the result
may be surgery, disability or both... the risk is real and the
incidence unknown.
Irrational Reason #1: Risk/Benefit.
Since the data is not clear, why take a risk? Diving is a wonderful
experience, but there are lots of wonderful experiences open to kids,
like growing up with two legs the same length. The benefits of
children diving are not commensurate with the risk.
Dr Yak - 04 Jul 2007 02:21 GMT
If you get into trouble, would you depend on your kiddo with the age and
relationship issues involved?

If your kiddo gets into trouble, do you know what to do?

> Two questions in one post, please, for those who have knowledge to
> share and spare...
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Thanks y'all!
Grumman-581 - 04 Jul 2007 04:32 GMT
> If you get into trouble, would you depend on your kiddo with the age and
> relationship issues involved?
>
> If your kiddo gets into trouble, do you know what to do?

I think that most of us who dive with our kid(s) figure that we're
watching over them and consider it a solo dive from the aspect of them
being able to ever help us...
Ron T - 04 Jul 2007 09:22 GMT
> > If you get into trouble, would you depend on your kiddo with the age and
> > relationship issues involved?
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> watching over them and consider it a solo dive from the aspect of them
> being able to ever help us...

I consider any dive I'm on to be a solo dive. Self reliance first, if I
can get any help from anyone else, then that's a bonus.

When I dive with a kid, I stay slightly above and behind allowing them
to lead the way. I watch them and can react to whatever they do. To
bolt, they have to go through me. They think it's cool that I will let
them lead, but in reality I control the situation.

The same technique works with any diver and I also use it with students
or newbies.

As for Kid divers in general - observe them abovewater. Do they listen
and act mature? Do they run off? Do the opposite of what they are told?
Those are all signs of trouble ahead because that behavior will likely
continue underwater. Kids showing such behavior on a routine basis are
not ready for diving.
Dillon Pyron - 05 Jul 2007 03:54 GMT
>> If you get into trouble, would you depend on your kiddo with the age and
>> relationship issues involved?
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>watching over them and consider it a solo dive from the aspect of them
>being able to ever help us...

That's the attitude I take when I'm teaching a class, even when there
are DMs in the water with me.  Those guys are there for the students,
who couldn't help each other if they were ankle deep.  I just make
sure my life insurance company doesn't know I think that way.
Signature

dillon

Broadway Photo sucks.  Ask me why.

CasperQ - 05 Jul 2007 15:35 GMT
On Jul 3, 10:32 pm, Grumman-581 <grumman...@DIE-SPAMMER-SCUM-
gmail.com> wrote:

> > If your kiddo gets into trouble, do you know what to do?
>
> I think that most of us who dive with our kid(s) figure that we're
> watching over them and consider it a solo dive from the aspect of them
> being able to ever help us...

Thanks for everyone's posts.  Even if they didn't have a shallow-dive
limit for kiddos, I'd practice that for the first few years until she
had proven her "cool under pressure" technique (which I wouldn't stake
my - or her - life on at the moment).  She's smart, processes well,
understands the 'whys' of most things, doesn't run off or disobey, but
coolness under pressure isn't there (there's a story about a lake and
a pier I could share to illustrate this lack - though in part it can
probably also be attributed to the giant pirhana (sp?) skeleton the
fish bait shop had posted as a joke).  Actually I'm not quite sure how
to instill that particular trait....

I had heard that diving behind and to the right of a more
inexperienced diver is recommended simply so they can't grab you, but
you can grab them.  Since I don't own my own equipment (and obviously
neither does she), we might rent a few pieces and practice in the
local pool just to see if her interest continues after a bit of
experimentation - before shelling out the time and money on lessons.
But she doesn't give up easily on an interest, so I'll be looking for
some local dive shops (I seem to remember one on 1960) where we can

For me, though, I don't think I'd get back in open water until I took
some sort of refresher course I think - the last time I dove was a
Blue Lagoon halloween pumpkin dive five or so years ago.  That was a
night dive and I'm sure my partner was a bit impatient because the
lack of visibility and the nighttime aspect took me about five minutes
before I could adjust my breathing and really take off (needless to
say, we didn't find any pumpkins - but it was still a ton 'o fun).
Plus, I wouldn't want to self-refresh solo so the refresher course is
a bit of a requirement.

Thanks so much for the inputs - this is a great newsgroup and I like
reading the 'reports' on the dives.
John Mason Jr - 05 Jul 2007 16:53 GMT
> On Jul 3, 10:32 pm, Grumman-581 <grumman...@DIE-SPAMMER-SCUM-
> gmail.com> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
> Thanks so much for the inputs - this is a great newsgroup and I like
> reading the 'reports' on the dives.

Along with your refresher course, you may want to look at a Rescue course.

In the rescue course you'll learn skills to avoid problems before they
occur and skills on dealing with problems if they do occur.

John
Ron T - 06 Jul 2007 09:56 GMT
> For me, though, I don't think I'd get back in open water until I took
> some sort of refresher course I think -

Talk to the instructor about taking the course with your daughter. The
cost wouldn't be that different from arefresher course alone. The big
issue would be if you could set aside your "I'm the Parent, I'm in
charge" mindset that most parents have AND would she be comfortable with
you there.

Otherwise it could be fun and take care of both your needs. You'd also
getacouple dives in together while under an instructors observation.
VK - 04 Jul 2007 09:40 GMT
> First question: how young can kiddos be certified, and what are the
> particular challenges?

Minimum age is 10.

Challenges?  Not that many to speak of when it comes to learning.
We've taught a few 11-14 year olds, and so far, they have all been
very attentive when it comes to watching the videos, listening to the
briefings and doing as they are told. I am going to have to disagree
with Dillon re. the attention span issue -  I only wish more adults
were as careful as most kids that we have encountered.

One thing I discuss with the parents is maturity - I make it clear
that *they* should make the decision as to whether or not their child
is mature enough to understand and listen to instructions.  So far,
only 1 child was not ready, and we refused to continue her course
after the first day.

And yeah, weight of tanks is an issue, although kitting up in the
water fixes that.  Ability to handle currents can also vary (we get
downright b*****d currents sometimes), although no more/no less than
adults.  Still, I tend to be more careful with children and currents.

Vandit
 
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