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Scuba Forum / General / June 2007

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Anybody Wanna Go Diving?

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Dan Bracuk - 03 Jun 2007 15:31 GMT
Hi guys.  Upcoming dives in the Florida Keys have been mentioned on
other threads.  Participants will be mag3, Curtis, John Hanson, Lee
Bell, possibly grunman581, plus anyone else that wants to come.

Currently booked.
Saturday 2007-06-23 morning and Friday 2007-06-29 afternoon.  Halls
Dive Shop in Marathon.  305-743-5929 or 1-800-331-4255.  Ask to join
the bracuk group.

Not yet booked, Looe Key dives for Sunday 2007-06-24 and Saturday
2006-06-30.  Once the dive shop has been finalized, the info will be
posted here.  

If you want to come, book your spots now.  Phone Halls directly.
Don't dilly dally.  I heard the words, "sorry we're full that day" on
the phone this morning.

If you are pretty sure you want to dive Looe Key, reply to this post.
One of our decisions is 6 pack or big boat.

Dan Bracuk
If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure.
nitespark - 03 Jun 2007 16:36 GMT
> Hi guys.  Upcoming dives in the Florida Keys have been mentioned on
> other threads.  Participants will be mag3, Curtis, John Hanson, Lee
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> 2006-06-30.  Once the dive shop has been finalized, the info will be
> posted here.  

Dan (and group),
I would love to make the trip but am already booked to Bonaire during
that time period.

Andy
Greg Mossman - 04 Jun 2007 15:51 GMT
> Dan (and group),
> I would love to make the trip but am already booked to Bonaire during
> that time period.

Likewise, but I'll be in GC.

Where are you staying in Bonaire?
nitespark - 04 Jun 2007 17:04 GMT
>>Dan (and group),
>>I would love to make the trip but am already booked to Bonaire during
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Where are you staying in Bonaire?

Sand Dollar
Greg Mossman - 04 Jun 2007 20:33 GMT
> >>Dan (and group),
> >>I would love to make the trip but am already booked to Bonaire during
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Sand Dollar

Let me know how you like it.  I've done both Capt. Don's and Buddy's,
and enjoyed Buddy's more but a week of that saggy mattress helped me
throw out my back on our last day there while rinsing and hanging up
gear.  I've only seen Sand Dollar from the road and from the ocean,
but it looks nice from those perspectives.

I think we're going to Den Laman next time, foregoing the big complex
for a more intimate experience, and hopefully much better mattresses.
The condos there look great from the pics, I've heard good reviews,
and best of all: they're fully air-conditioned.

We had such a great time on our last visit that I wouldn't consider
any other place in the Caribbean - we only decided on Grand Cayman
this time because it's a lot easier to fit the flights into my work
schedule (can't do Thursday-Thursday to Bonaire with Continental's
once-a-week redeye) and I'm mainly going for a tech class with
DiveTech.  (Walt Starker teaches tech classes out of Capt. Don's, but
it was a pain having to drag everything over there).

Of course now that I've found out my new housing will be ready before
we go, I almost feel like blowing off the class in favor of playing
with the camera all day every day.  It's going to suck having to limit
myself to shooting pics on sunset and night shore dives after class,
losing all the good day light, but I doubt the tech instructor would
appreciate me task loading myself with a new camera while trying to do
the drills.  I have one day of boat diving after the 5-day class, so
I'll at least get to use that to the fullest.
nitespark - 04 Jun 2007 22:03 GMT
>>>>Dan (and group),
>>>>I would love to make the trip but am already booked to Bonaire during
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> gear.  I've only seen Sand Dollar from the road and from the ocean,
> but it looks nice from those perspectives.

I have never been to Sand Dollar but that seems to be the facility of
choice with the LDS.  The do offer internet access in the rooms and
nitrox is included in the price.

When I was in Bonaire before, we stayed at the Plaza Resort.  Very nice
accomodations.  Two tank boat dive with one or two trips to Klein
Bonaire.  My understanding about this trip, we will be doing all shore
diving.

> I think we're going to Den Laman next time, foregoing the big complex
> for a more intimate experience, and hopefully much better mattresses.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> DiveTech.  (Walt Starker teaches tech classes out of Capt. Don's, but
> it was a pain having to drag everything over there).

Which tech class are you going for?

> Of course now that I've found out my new housing will be ready before
> we go, I almost feel like blowing off the class in favor of playing
> with the camera all day every day.  

Plenty of other opportunities to shoot some pics.  What kind of housing
did you get?  What camera are you going to use in it?  External strobe I
presume?

It's going to suck having to limit
> myself to shooting pics on sunset and night shore dives after class,
> losing all the good day light, but I doubt the tech instructor would
> appreciate me task loading myself with a new camera while trying to do
> the drills.  I have one day of boat diving after the 5-day class, so
> I'll at least get to use that to the fullest.

Getting on the plane with wet hair eh?
Greg Mossman - 04 Jun 2007 23:05 GMT
> I have never been to Sand Dollar but that seems to be the facility of
> choice with the LDS.  The do offer internet access in the rooms and
> nitrox is included in the price.

Nice, and nice again.  "Free" nitrox seems to be the rage in Bonaire
lately and I hope it catches on elsewhere.  I'm sure the management
calculates the cost and spreads it among the non-nitrox divers, which
is hopefully a good incentive for more people to start using "voodoo
gas".  Internet access sucked at Buddy's, as the one day I really
needed to get online for work-related purposes, their single internet
terminal was busy for a couple hours and I had to pace back and forth,
drinking too many beers in the meantime, so that I was almost too
drunk to do my work by the time I got online.

> When I was in Bonaire before, we stayed at the Plaza Resort.  Very nice
> accomodations.  Two tank boat dive with one or two trips to Klein
> Bonaire.  My understanding about this trip, we will be doing all shore
> diving.

We might try Plaza someday, but I've heard too many complaints about
their dive op being quite a distance from the rooms and a PITA to get
tanks for shore diving.  That's the best thing about Buddy, the drive-
thru tank-swap station.  Unfortunately we didn't use it too much on
our last trip since Janna wrenched a leg doing an involuntary splits
on the slippery marble floor early in the trip - she was real happy
that we had an 11-boat-dive package so she didn't have to try crawling
over iron shore to get in the water.

Den Laman has free wi-fi in the rooms - another plus that I forgot to
mention.  It's right next to Sand Dollar, so check it out if you get a
chance.

> Which tech class are you going for?

The TDI Adv. Nitrox/Deco Procedures combo.  I've been deeper than 150'
before, once, but this time I'll be doing it right.  Since I've
already done 10 or so dives between 140-150, I'm not so excited about
the depth as I am about the time I'll be able to spend at depth, but
it's a necessary prereq to get to the deeper classes - I'd like to
take a trimix class and hit 200' in a year or two.

> Plenty of other opportunities to shoot some pics.  What kind of housing
> did you get?  What camera are you going to use in it?  External strobe I
> presume?

I already have two DS-125s from my Ikelight setup.  I got a D200 a
month ago, with appropriate u/w lenses (60 and 105mm macro and a 12-24
w/a), and it was just a matter of choosing among the 10+ available
housings for that model.  I went with one of the priciest options,
Light & Motion, due to their great reputation with video housings and
the very flexible ROC control for the strobes.

> Getting on the plane with wet hair eh?

Not me, with all my slow tissues.  We arrive Thursday evening, I'm in
class from Friday-Tuesday, and with a 5 p.m. flight out Thursday, that
gives us at least two afternoon shore dives after the morning boat
dives on Wednesday with 24 hours to offgas before we take off, and
even with the time change and 3 hours of layover time in Houston to
accomodate customs/immigration, still gets us home at 12:30 a.m.
Thursday, so I can get in a day of work on Friday.

The construction on my store expansion was scheduled to end around
June 15, so I was initially a bit aggravated that I had timed this
trip so poorly, but with the inevitable delays that have cropped up, I
doubt they'll be finished before we get back and I'll hopefully be
well rested enough by then to really get to the hard work involved in
getting the new store set up for business.

That will give me six 7-day weeks of 18 hour days to get the place in
a position for my manager to be able to handle things when I leave for
the Galapagos on August 14.  Secretly I'm now hoping for a hurricane
or something to blow out one of the trips since I think I'm
overextending myself a bit, but if not, you only live once . . .
nitespark - 04 Jun 2007 23:52 GMT
>>I have never been to Sand Dollar but that seems to be the facility of
>>choice with the LDS.  The do offer internet access in the rooms and
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> is hopefully a good incentive for more people to start using "voodoo
> gas".

I have never thought of nitrox as "voodoo gas"..."Geezer gas" maybe
(perhaps in my case) but not "voodoo".  I view nitrox as a tool.  Not
appropriate for every dive, but certainly useful on some dives.

 Internet access sucked at Buddy's, as the one day I really
> needed to get online for work-related purposes, their single internet
> terminal was busy for a couple hours and I had to pace back and forth,
> drinking too many beers in the meantime, so that I was almost too
> drunk to do my work by the time I got online.

I'm going to take my "travel laptop".  Fairly inexpensive laptop that
can process and store my pictures, wireless internet capabilities, but
if something happens to it, I am not out a great deal of money.  I
checked with the LDS and they said there was something like a $25 charge
for the week for Internet access.  Not too unreasonable.

>>When I was in Bonaire before, we stayed at the Plaza Resort.  Very nice
>>accomodations.  Two tank boat dive with one or two trips to Klein
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> that we had an 11-boat-dive package so she didn't have to try crawling
> over iron shore to get in the water.

That was not my experience at all with Plaza.  They had about 75 tanks
set up by the boat dock and then another 75 or so set up near the beach
and I think there was a third place you could pick up tanks if you
wanted to go do some shore diving.  I would take my gear to the room
after diving.  When I wanted to do a shore dive from the resort, I
merely got my gear, went to the beach, picked up a tank and 100 ft later
I was in the water.  Maybe 100 yards or so from my room to the tanks.

It is recommended to take some o-rings along.  I had one go bad on my
tank at either Karpata or 1000 steps (can't remember which).

On our first day, we had our obligatory briefing about bouyancy etc.
One of the things the divemaster emphasized when shore diving away from
the resort, leave the windows open on your vehicle and nothing of value
in the vehicle.  Since most of us were diving twice, we would of course
have to leave a tank in the back of the truck.  When I asked him about
that, he replied in his thick Dutch accent, "Not to worry, not your tanks".

> Den Laman has free wi-fi in the rooms - another plus that I forgot to
> mention.  It's right next to Sand Dollar, so check it out if you get a
> chance.

May actually be able to tap into their wi-fi with my card.  We'll see.

>>Which tech class are you going for?
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> it's a necessary prereq to get to the deeper classes - I'd like to
> take a trimix class and hit 200' in a year or two.

Cool.  I have been to 152 once.  Heavy current and basically touched the
deck of the wreck and turned around and came back.  It was 175 to the
sand.

>>Plenty of other opportunities to shoot some pics.  What kind of housing
>>did you get?  What camera are you going to use in it?  External strobe I
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Light & Motion, due to their great reputation with video housings and
> the very flexible ROC control for the strobes.

Not familiar with the D200.  Digital I presume?

>>Getting on the plane with wet hair eh?
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> accomodate customs/immigration, still gets us home at 12:30 a.m.
> Thursday, so I can get in a day of work on Friday.

I don't know how slow or fast my tissues are and do not plan on finding
out the hard way.

> The construction on my store expansion was scheduled to end around
> June 15, so I was initially a bit aggravated that I had timed this
> trip so poorly, but with the inevitable delays that have cropped up, I
> doubt they'll be finished before we get back and I'll hopefully be
> well rested enough by then to really get to the hard work involved in
> getting the new store set up for business.

Gotta love contractors.  They are building a new EMS facility in my
town.  Very nice facility.  The other day they cut into a gas main.
That's as in MAIN and not just a service line.  Thought about calling on
the radio and see if someone could bring me some extra flares but
doubted that would go over well even if it was intended humorously.

> That will give me six 7-day weeks of 18 hour days to get the place in
> a position for my manager to be able to handle things when I leave for
> the Galapagos on August 14.  Secretly I'm now hoping for a hurricane
> or something to blow out one of the trips since I think I'm
> overextending myself a bit, but if not, you only live once . . .

I guess Bonaire is going to be my trip for 07.  Went to Morehead 2 weeks
ago.  Saturday, the seas were fairly calm, at least by Morehead NC
standards.  1-2 foot seas.  I have seen viz better.  First dive, the
current was ripping and the Captain warned us, "DO NOT TRY A FREE
DESCENT OR FREE ASCENT...IF YOU DO, WE WILL TRY AND FIND YOU AFTER WE
GET EVERYONE ELSE BACK ON BOARD".  Although I brought my camera along, I
didn't even want to try and deal with it in conditions like that.  As it
turned out, it wasn't great photographic conditions anyway.  Next dive
was quite a bit calmer (current wise).
Sunday morning going out was a bit choppy (maybe 1-2 foot) but not bad.
 We dove the Aeolus (one of my favorites) but they were calling for
worsening conditions in the afternoon.  By the time I got back on the
boat the seas had picked up to 3-4 feet.  We returned into the wind and
waves and the ride beat the hell out of us.  Occasionally we would hit a
10-12 foot swell.  Second dive was considerably closer to shore and
still 4-5 foot seas.  I have already dove the second site (Suloid) which
is basically nothing but a debris field on the ocean floor.  I just
didn't feel like getting the hell beat out of me trying to get back on
the boat after the dive so I stayed topside and ate my lunch.  Couple of
the divers took somewhat of a beating from the ladder on the back of the
boat so I guess I didn't miss much other than a couple of bruises.
Greg Mossman - 05 Jun 2007 01:05 GMT
> I have never thought of nitrox as "voodoo gas"..."Geezer gas" maybe
> (perhaps in my case) but not "voodoo".  I view nitrox as a tool.  Not
> appropriate for every dive, but certainly useful on some dives.

Sorry, that's an old marketing tool of my local LDS.  Nitrox still
isn't as popular out here as it should be (i.e. shops like Ken
Kurtis's Reef Seekers still refuse to teach or fill it) and my local
LDS was one of the earliest converts.

I believe nitrox is appropriate for every dive at recreational depths
as long as the price is right.

> I'm going to take my "travel laptop".  Fairly inexpensive laptop that
> can process and store my pictures, wireless internet capabilities, but
> if something happens to it, I am not out a great deal of money.  I
> checked with the LDS and they said there was something like a $25 charge
> for the week for Internet access.  Not too unreasonable.

Don't forget a surge protector, or preferably, a voltage regulator.
Bonaire is notorious for quirky electrical.

Buddy recommended charging laptops up at the office.  I just left mine
at home.

> That was not my experience at all with Plaza.  They had about 75 tanks
> set up by the boat dock and then another 75 or so set up near the beach
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> merely got my gear, went to the beach, picked up a tank and 100 ft later
> I was in the water.  Maybe 100 yards or so from my room to the tanks.

I can't comment, not having been there.  Like I said, I'll probably
give it try sometime.  We left most of the gear in the unsecured gear
room at Buddy's since we mainly did boat dives, taking only the
expensive stuff back to our roms (regs and computers).  We didn't have
any problems with theft and the 30-foot walk to the dock to catch a
boat or do a shore dive was very manageable.  Marching all the gear
back to the room was a pain, but you could pull a truck in near the
top of the steps from the gear room, or store gear in a more-secured
locker up at the drive-thru.

> It is recommended to take some o-rings along.  I had one go bad on my
> tank at either Karpata or 1000 steps (can't remember which).
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> have to leave a tank in the back of the truck.  When I asked him about
> that, he replied in his thick Dutch accent, "Not to worry, not your tanks".

It's a hard habit to break when you get back home.  I dislike not
being able to keep anything in the truck on shore dives, but it's a
real laid back feeling to be able to park it and leave it unlocked
with the windows down when you're in town (not to mention keeping the
interior cooler while you're away).

> May actually be able to tap into their wi-fi with my card.  We'll see.

Sorry, I checked again and it looks like I mis-remembered:  "Wireless
internet is also available throughout most of the property for a
nominal charge" according to the website.  It is free wi-fi at Cobalt
Coast in Grand Cayman, where we're headed.  Maybe if you have a really
strong antenna . . .

> Cool.  I have been to 152 once.  Heavy current and basically touched the
> deck of the wreck and turned around and came back.  It was 175 to the
> sand.

Mine was 167 to the sand in Truk.  My buddy had a propeller fetish and
apparently this one was a beauty worth risking our lives over.  The
only hitch was that the Chuukese crew couldn't understand "air" and
kept refilling my tank with nitrox each time I dumped it.  Finally
they got it right on the third try, but there wasn't time to dump
enough nitrox out (impatient buddy) so I had to do it on 28.5%.  It
was a real quick bounce as I was afraid to inhale.

> Not familiar with the D200.  Digital I presume?

Nikon D-200, digital SLR with great compatibility with former Nikon
lenses and access to the nifty new digital-oriented lenses with VR
(vibration resistant) technology.  I was just out taking macro shots
in my backyard using a 5T close-up filter on top of the 105mm VR macro
lens with some amazing magnification.  I can't wait to use it
underwater, but supposedly the 5T filter won't fit inside the port.

It's a great camera, priced for high-end amateurs or low-budget pros
(I hope to be one of the latter someday!).

> I don't know how slow or fast my tissues are and do not plan on finding
> out the hard way.

It just dawned on me that in just about all these cases of DCS after
flying, the victims didn't realize or report their symptoms until
after landing.  I wonder if you start noticing problems midflight if
it would be possible for them to drop an oxygen mask over just your
seat?  Or might that freak out the other passengers a bit?

> didn't feel like getting the hell beat out of me trying to get back on
> the boat after the dive so I stayed topside and ate my lunch.  Couple of
> the divers took somewhat of a beating from the ladder on the back of the
> boat so I guess I didn't miss much other than a couple of bruises.

Sounds fun.  At least the water's warm.  Good think you can keep your
lunch down in those conditions.  When are you coming out this way for
some kelp action?  I need an excuse to get back in the cold water.

We planned Galapagos as our big trip of the year.  The GC class was
more of a spur-of-the-moment midlife crisis-sort of booking that I've
since regretted a bit, but I am really looking forward to taking the
class.  Now that I'll have the camera setup to boot, I've taken back
my wish for a hurricane then.

The camera is my early 40th birthday present to go with the big trip
of 2008, but I'm grateful to get a chance to break it in at an easier
site.  I planned on just shooting video in Galapagos, provided
Amphibico sends me back my housing and lights in time, but I might try
to bring the camera too if Ecuador isn't undergoing one of their
"luggage embargoes".

This weekend's Scuba Show was frustrating as about half of the
exhibitors are travel-related.  I'm hoping 2009 might bring us a
return trip to Indonesia (N. Sulawesi or Irian Jaya this time), or
maybe the Maldives.  Too many places, way too little time and money.
nitespark - 05 Jun 2007 02:36 GMT
>>I have never thought of nitrox as "voodoo gas"..."Geezer gas" maybe
>>(perhaps in my case) but not "voodoo".  I view nitrox as a tool.  Not
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Kurtis's Reef Seekers still refuse to teach or fill it) and my local
> LDS was one of the earliest converts.

Why is he so resistant to nitrox?  Curious....

> I believe nitrox is appropriate for every dive at recreational depths
> as long as the price is right.

Personal choice. I think a lot depends on the person.  If you run out of
bottom time before you run out of gas then nitrox could be benificial.
Other way around, probably not.  Of course if you are trying to factor
in the added safety value, that is another matter.

I assume you are considering maximum recreational depth at 130?
If so the your mix should be no more than 28% at 1.4ppo2.  You would get
an EAD of 115.5.  On air your maximum NDl is 10 minutes.  With nitrox
your maximum NDL is 13-14 minutes.  Not hardly worth the extra expense
and bother.

>>I'm going to take my "travel laptop".  Fairly inexpensive laptop that
>>can process and store my pictures, wireless internet capabilities, but
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Don't forget a surge protector, or preferably, a voltage regulator.
> Bonaire is notorious for quirky electrical.

I have already checked my chargers.  My laptop and camera chargers are
rated 50-60hz.  The surge protector might not be a bad idea if I have
room to pack it.

>>May actually be able to tap into their wi-fi with my card.  We'll see.
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Coast in Grand Cayman, where we're headed.  Maybe if you have a really
> strong antenna . . .

I think if I got an antenna that strong, I would stand a better chance
trying to tap something in Caracas. :)

> Mine was 167 to the sand in Truk.  My buddy had a propeller fetish and
> apparently this one was a beauty worth risking our lives over.  The
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> enough nitrox out (impatient buddy) so I had to do it on 28.5%.  It
> was a real quick bounce as I was afraid to inhale.

OK (barely) if you are going by 1.6ppo2.

>>Not familiar with the D200.  Digital I presume?
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> lens with some amazing magnification.  I can't wait to use it
> underwater, but supposedly the 5T filter won't fit inside the port.

Nice they engineered some retro compatibility in there.  Lot of
companies won't do that which---gasp---means they get to sell more
accessories.

> It's a great camera, priced for high-end amateurs or low-budget pros
> (I hope to be one of the latter someday!).

Outta my league.

>>I don't know how slow or fast my tissues are and do not plan on finding
>>out the hard way.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> it would be possible for them to drop an oxygen mask over just your
> seat?  Or might that freak out the other passengers a bit?

I doubt the overhead O2 mask can be individually deployed, but I would
suspect the aircraft is equipped with something similar to a DAN kit to
allow for administering O2 to a passenger experiencing a medical emergency.

>>didn't feel like getting the hell beat out of me trying to get back on
>>the boat after the dive so I stayed topside and ate my lunch.  Couple of
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> lunch down in those conditions.  When are you coming out this way for
> some kelp action?  I need an excuse to get back in the cold water.

Water was not all that warm.  My computer recorded temps that ranged
from 65° to 73°.  I dove with a 3mil and was fairly comfortable.  Took
my drysuit down with me but decided to leave it ashore.  Only one other
diver was diving dry and she dives almost exclusively dry.
Greg Mossman - 05 Jun 2007 03:42 GMT
> Why is he so resistant to nitrox?  Curious....

I don't believe he's ever really given a straight answer.

In any case, I took a look at the site just to make sure my info was
current, and found that they've temporarily (?) closed shop:

www.reefseekers.com

Now we might never know why.

> Personal choice. I think a lot depends on the person.  If you run out of
> bottom time before you run out of gas then nitrox could be benificial.
> Other way around, probably not.  Of course if you are trying to factor
> in the added safety value, that is another matter.

I do factor in the added safety value.  It's a simple formula:  Less
nitrogen = greater happiness.  If greater happiness = free, then why
not use it on all dives?

> I assume you are considering maximum recreational depth at 130?
> If so the your mix should be no more than 28% at 1.4ppo2.  You would get
> an EAD of 115.5.  On air your maximum NDl is 10 minutes.  With nitrox
> your maximum NDL is 13-14 minutes.  Not hardly worth the extra expense
> and bother.

Extending your bottom time by 30-40% is hardly worth the extra expense
and bother?

Anyway, I wouldn't consider a 10 minute dive worth the expense and
bother in the first place.

> I have already checked my chargers.  My laptop and camera chargers are
> rated 50-60hz.  The surge protector might not be a bad idea if I have
> room to pack it.

This is the common warning, beyond the voltage warnings:

"However, it is also said that Bonaire is occasionally "generous" with
its power, and surges and brownouts are not uncommon. If you plug
anything electronically delicate into a wall outlet, it might not be a
bad idea to have a small surge protector in between. These are
available at most consumer electronics stores, such as Radio Shack."

http://www.infobonaire.com/technology.html

I got a travel one that's not much bigger than a pack of smokes - the
plug folds down.

> I think if I got an antenna that strong, I would stand a better chance
> trying to tap something in Caracas. :)

You'll pick up some good porn.  Venezuelan women are hot.

> OK (barely) if you are going by 1.6ppo2.

I get a 1.73 when I do the math.  (167/33) + 1 = 6.06 * .285 = 1.73

But that can't be too bad for a bounce when NOAA allows 45 minutes at
1.6.  My blood doesn't even circulate that fast.

> Outta my league.

Mine too.  That's why I have to became a famous u/w photog real quick.

But I don't have a fancy sports car, Harley, expensive mistress, CCR,
or even a riding lawn mower, and with my luck, I doubt I'll be around
too much longer.  I've got to spend my money on something fun while I
still can.

> I doubt the overhead O2 mask can be individually deployed, but I would
> suspect the aircraft is equipped with something similar to a DAN kit to
> allow for administering O2 to a passenger experiencing a medical emergency.

Only one way to find out . . .

> Water was not all that warm.  My computer recorded temps that ranged
> from 65? to 73?.  I dove with a 3mil and was fairly comfortable.  Took
> my drysuit down with me but decided to leave it ashore.  Only one other
> diver was diving dry and she dives almost exclusively dry.
nitespark - 05 Jun 2007 20:00 GMT
>>Why is he so resistant to nitrox?  Curious....
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Now we might never know why.

Quite odd.  Hell, Splashdown doesn't even require a Nitrox certification.

>>Personal choice. I think a lot depends on the person.  If you run out of
>>bottom time before you run out of gas then nitrox could be benificial.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> nitrogen = greater happiness.  If greater happiness = free, then why
> not use it on all dives?

I dunno...a little narcosis can make you REAL happy.

>>I assume you are considering maximum recreational depth at 130?
>>If so the your mix should be no more than 28% at 1.4ppo2.  You would get
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Anyway, I wouldn't consider a 10 minute dive worth the expense and
> bother in the first place.

"There are lies, damn lies, and statistics".- Mark Twain.
True. 30-40% more time but I don't consider 3-4 more minutes a
significant advantage, but to each his own.

>>I have already checked my chargers.  My laptop and camera chargers are
>>rated 50-60hz.  The surge protector might not be a bad idea if I have
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> I got a travel one that's not much bigger than a pack of smokes - the
> plug folds down.

I will probably go that route.  Thanks for the tip.

>>OK (barely) if you are going by 1.6ppo2.
>
> I get a 1.73 when I do the math.  (167/33) + 1 = 6.06 * .285 = 1.73
>
> But that can't be too bad for a bounce when NOAA allows 45 minutes at
> 1.6.  My blood doesn't even circulate that fast.

Going by my nitrox manual-
MOD formula (for 1.4ppo2) is (46.2/O2%)-33=MOD
MOD formula (for 1.6ppo2) is (52.8/02%)-33=MOD or
                             (52.8/.285)-33=152.3ft

I think when I initially figured your MOD I intended to round UP on your
mix to 29% and entered 27% instead on the calculator which gave you an
MOD of 162.  So our figures probably agree.

>>Outta my league.
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> too much longer.  I've got to spend my money on something fun while I
> still can.

(1)Fancy sports car
(2)Harley
(3)Expensive mistress
(4)CCR
(5)Riding lawn mower

OK..I got 2 out of 5 covered.  I'll let you figure out which ones

>>I doubt the overhead O2 mask can be individually deployed, but I would
>>suspect the aircraft is equipped with something similar to a DAN kit to
>>allow for administering O2 to a passenger experiencing a medical emergency.
>
> Only one way to find out . . .

Let me know how it goes.
Grumman-581 - 05 Jun 2007 21:25 GMT
> I dunno...a little narcosis can make you REAL happy.

Agreed... The only problem I've found is that you need to start worrying
about O2 toxicity for deep dives... For some reason, none of the dive
shops seem to offer a nitrox mix with less O2 and more N2 (e.g. 12% O2,
88% N2) for when you want a little bit more narc and a little less O2
toxicity at deeper depths... All that's left is to brew you own with a
touch of argon before topping off with air...

On the other hand, we could mix argon with helium for when we're
confused on whether we want to get narced or not... Or was it just for
when we wanted to be narced and speak like Donald Duck?
Al Wells - 05 Jun 2007 01:54 GMT
> That was not my experience at all with Plaza.  They had about 75 tanks
> set up by the boat dock and then another 75 or so set up near the beach
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> merely got my gear, went to the beach, picked up a tank and 100 ft later
> I was in the water.  Maybe 100 yards or so from my room to the tanks.

We stayed in a villa at Plaza. All of the villas are on the other side
of the waterway from the dive shop. The walk over the bridge to the shop
wasn't as bad as it first looked. To get there by truck, you have to
drive out to the main road by the airport and go a little less than a
mile toward town. To do a beach dive, we drove all the way around
instead of trying to hump gear from our villa or gear locker.

The villa was pretty nice. My previous experience in bonaire had been at
the Sand Dollar before Lenny, so I was a little disappointed with
"inconvenience" of the Plaza, but Cindy thought it was wonderful. The
villa was way nicer than anything at the SD.
nitespark - 05 Jun 2007 02:11 GMT
>>That was not my experience at all with Plaza.  They had about 75 tanks
>>set up by the boat dock and then another 75 or so set up near the beach
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> mile toward town. To do a beach dive, we drove all the way around
> instead of trying to hump gear from our villa or gear locker.

You were over on the side with the restaurant and casino?  I didn't
spend much time over there other than to eat and look around a bit.
I really liked the convenience of the room with where it was to the
beach.  The rocks on the beach were a bit slick and you had to be
careful on entry but that was only for a relatively short distance.  One
thing I did (other than dive) while there, was I took a portable ham
radio station.  Strung up a dipole there next to the docks at the dive
shop and worked all over the US and Eurpoe on the 20 meter band.  Kinda
neat since the US and Bonaire (Netherlands) are members of CEPT agreement
Limey - 05 Jun 2007 01:48 GMT
> Hi guys.  Upcoming dives in the Florida Keys have been mentioned on
> other threads.  Participants will be mag3, Curtis, John Hanson, Lee
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> 2006-06-30.  Once the dive shop has been finalized, the info will be
> posted here.

D'ya hafta wear "retro" gear to make the 2006 dive?

LD.
Dan Bracuk - 05 Jun 2007 04:30 GMT
"Limey" <davidfliesno@attcrap.net> pounded away at his keyboard
resulting in:

:D'ya hafta wear "retro" gear to make the 2006 dive?

Yes.

Dan Bracuk
If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure.
Dan Bracuk - 07 Jun 2007 23:54 GMT
For June 24th, Looe Key Reef Resort is the shop of choice.  Patti and
I are booked and the e-mail gang has been notified.  

http://www.diveflakeys.com/godiving.htm

Dan Bracuk
If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure.
Dan Bracuk - 10 Jun 2007 17:37 GMT
Dan Bracuk <NOTbracuk@pathcom.com> pounded away at his keyboard
resulting in:

Curtis, John, Patti and I are booked on the morning trip with
Innerspace http://www.diveinnerspace.com/ on Saturday June 30th.  That
leaves 2 spots left for anyone that want's to join us.

Dan Bracuk
If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure.
bracuk@axxent.ca - 14 Jun 2007 23:41 GMT
> Dan Bracuk <NOTbra...@pathcom.com> pounded away at his keyboard
> resulting in:
>
> Curtis, John, Patti and I are booked on the morning trip with
> Innerspacehttp://www.diveinnerspace.com/on Saturday June 30th.  That
> leaves 2 spots left for anyone that want's to join us.

Roll Call - Who's in?  Also for Friday the 29th, in the afternoon,
with Hall's in Marathon.
Dan Bracuk - 12 Jun 2007 00:16 GMT
Hey grunman - are you staying in Key Largo the night of the 22nd?  I'm
trying to come up with a dinner plan that involves 6 showered people
not having to stand in line anywhere.  Lee, Patti, and I are staying
in Marathon, so it will be a late meal by North American standards.

Dan Bracuk
If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure.
Grumman-581 - 12 Jun 2007 02:54 GMT
> Hey grunman - are you staying in Key Largo the night of the 22nd?  I'm
> trying to come up with a dinner plan that involves 6 showered people
> not having to stand in line anywhere.  Lee, Patti, and I are staying
> in Marathon, so it will be a late meal by North American standards.

Thursday (6/21) we will be staying on the mainland... I believe that
we will be at the Hyatt Regency Miami (near the MIA airport, I
believe)... Grace is arriving after midnight and doesn't want a long
drive down to the Keys at that point... Friday (6/22), we will be
headed down to the Keys... Lee had said something about a dive in Key
Largo on Friday... If it is an afternoon dive, we will be able to make
it... We will be staying at the Banana Bay Resort & Marina

If one of the requirements is for the participants to be showered,
perhaps it would be best if it was somewhere around Marathon since
that is where ya'll will be staying in addition to Grace, Kaitlyn, and
myself... A late meal is not a problem, although Grace might start
complaining if it occurred after 22:00... How late is 'late' by your
scale of measurement?
Lee Bell - 12 Jun 2007 10:33 GMT
>> Hey grunman - are you staying in Key Largo the night of the 22nd?  I'm
>> trying to come up with a dinner plan that involves 6 showered people
>> not having to stand in line anywhere.  Lee, Patti, and I are staying
>> in Marathon, so it will be a late meal by North American standards.

> Thursday (6/21) we will be staying on the mainland... I believe that
> we will be at the Hyatt Regency Miami (near the MIA airport, I
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> complaining if it occurred after 22:00... How late is 'late' by your
> scale of measurement?

Plans are shifting.  Grumman, if it suits you, we'll probably scratch Key
Largo and move the afternoon dive to Marathon, saving Dan a 100 mile round
trip and making dinner logistics work better.  It's up to you.  Either way
works well for me.

Lee
Dan Bracuk - 14 Jun 2007 23:41 GMT
Dan Bracuk <NOTbracuk@pathcom.com> pounded away at his keyboard
resulting in:

:Hi guys.  Upcoming dives in the Florida Keys have been mentioned on
:other threads.  Participants will be mag3, Curtis, John Hanson, Lee
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
:Dive Shop in Marathon.  305-743-5929 or 1-800-331-4255.  Ask to join
:the bracuk group.

Roll call - who's in?

Dan Bracuk
If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure.
mag3 - 15 Jun 2007 01:52 GMT
>Dan Bracuk <NOTbracuk@pathcom.com> pounded away at his keyboard
>resulting in:
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
>Roll call - who's in?

I'm in for 06/29.
____________________________________________
Regards,

Arnold
Magilla - 15 Jun 2007 02:21 GMT
> Roll call - who's in?

   Fri  Hall's

   Sat  Inner Space

   Sun  Tilden's.

Curtis
Dan Bracuk - 16 Jun 2007 03:11 GMT
Dan Bracuk <NOTbracuk@pathcom.com> pounded away at his keyboard
resulting in:

:Hi guys.  Upcoming dives in the Florida Keys have been mentioned on
:other threads.  Participants will be mag3, Curtis, John Hanson, Lee
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
:Now booked, Looe Key dives for Sunday 2007-06-24 and Saturday
:2006-06-30.  

For those who are coming, see ya next weekend.  For now, colour me
disconnected and out of touch.

Dan Bracuk
If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure.
John Hanson - 16 Jun 2007 21:05 GMT
>Dan Bracuk <NOTbracuk@pathcom.com> pounded away at his keyboard
>resulting in:
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>Dan Bracuk
>If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure.

Looking forward to seeing you Dan.
-hh - 17 Jun 2007 12:59 GMT
> Dan Bracuk <NOTbracuk@pathcom.com>wrote in rec.scuba:
> >
> >For those who are coming, see ya next weekend.  For now, colour me
> >disconnected and out of touch.
>
> Looking forward to seeing you Dan.

Wish I could be there, but have a family reunion /trip to attend.
I'll try to provide a report on conditions in Long Island Sound :-)

-hh
Grumman-581 - 19 Jun 2007 07:18 GMT
> Wish I could be there, but have a family reunion /trip to attend.
> I'll try to provide a report on conditions in Long Island Sound :-)

Other than cold, how is it? <snicker>

I'm headed to SoFL... Stopped in Pensacola for the night...
Magilla - 20 Jun 2007 02:03 GMT
> For those who are coming, see ya next weekend.  For now, colour me
> disconnected and out of touch.

   Dan's arrived safely at Marathon, and reports overall great sissy
diving.  Vis could be better, so requests anyone heading down to bring some
clear water with them.  (Wonder if a 5 gallon bucket of 100 foot vis spring
water will help).

   However, he's seeing fish, lots of fish.  Always a good dive when you
see a fish.

   Looking forward to getting south myself.......

Curtis
Grumman-581 - 20 Jun 2007 07:47 GMT
> Dan's arrived safely at Marathon, and reports overall great sissy
> diving.

I'm in the Ft Lauderdale area right now myself... Grace originally decided
to use her Hyatt points to get a 'free' stay for us for a few days at the
Pier 66 Hyatt... I got there at 23:00 Tuesday evening... I parked fairly
close to the entrance... There was quite a walk to the front desk and a
very long walk to the room... I checked it out... Nice... Nice pool... I
didn't like the fact that my room was in a different county than where I
parked... They even had the nerve to charge $19 per day for parking in
addition to something like a $12 'resort fee'... The final straw was
that the damn refrigerator didn't work... So, I was looking at $31 for a
room that was very inconvenient taking my dive equipment from my truck to
my room to get it ready... I didn't relish the idea of making all those
trips back and forth for the next couple of days, so I walked back down to
the lobby and told them that it was totally unacceptable, to cancel my
room, and I'll go find my own hotel... I don't want much, just a clean
room that doesn't smell like smoke or mold, parking close to my room, and
an air-conditioner that works really good... Either a refrigerator that
works or an ice maker close to the room is also very nice... It didn't
take long to find such a hotel that met these requirements and it wasn't
all that much more than the BS Hyatt charges for parking and 'resort
fee'...

> Looking forward to getting south myself.......

I decided to take I-95 down this time... Went through Jacksonville instead
of taking the tollway and ending up going through Orlando... Had over a
hundred miles of driving in the rain from Jacksonville south... Stopped by
a dive shop in Jacksonville and bought a new horse collar BC so that the
boat won't be able to bitch about me not having a BC for the Sunday
dives... I had been wanting to get one to see if I could rig one up into a
sidemount configuration anyway...
mag3 - 23 Jun 2007 00:50 GMT
>Hi guys.  Upcoming dives in the Florida Keys have been mentioned on
>other threads.  Participants will be mag3, Curtis, John Hanson, Lee
>Bell, possibly grunman581, plus anyone else that wants to come.

On my way... Se you Sunday 06/24.

____________________________________________
Regards,

Arnold
Magilla - 23 Jun 2007 02:53 GMT
> On my way... Se you Sunday 06/24.

  And see you on the 29th.......
Grumman-581 - 24 Jun 2007 23:33 GMT
> On my way... Se you Sunday 06/24.

Friday afternoon dives at Key Largo turned out good... Nice visibility and
water temperatures cool enough that it felt refreshing to get in the
water... Two dives total and each was an hour in length... I brought
my HP120s and rigged up one for each dive with a new horsecollar BC
and plastic backplate... The HP120 is negative enough that with a
front inflation BC like a horsecollar, there is a noticeable tendency
for it to want to turn you face up... Grace and Kaitlyn drove my truck
down to Marathon and checked in the hotel and Lee gave me a lift back
there after the dives... Dan, Pat, Lee, Grace, Kaitlyn, and I met
afterwards for dinner...

The Saturday dives were a morning departure with Hall's from Marathon...
The visibility was noticeably worse than the Saturday dives and the water
temperature seemed warmer... For whatever reason, I ended up getting a bit
sick at my stomach and didn't stay down for the full hour on either
dive... Lee continued on his on for the rest of the dive... For some
reason, the fried oysters that I had had the previous night didn't taste
as good the second time around... The Hall's boat was definitely a cattle
boat... Quite a few divers on it in addition to snorkelers and snorkelling
kids who were screaming about being afraid of the water... Some of them
were chumming the water...

We just made it back to our hotel after the Sunday dives and cleaning
up our gear... Looe Key Resort Dive Shop... I had Grace use her old BC,
Kaitlyn used my horsecollar BC, and I used my wing and twinned 80s...
Total of 3 dives... Pontoon type boat... A very crowded boat with a lot of
divers and snorkellers on it... They charge $80 for a 3 tank trip and
don't give you a discount if you have your own tanks with you, so I left
my tanks at the hotel... They seemed a bit overpriced and the only thing
provided for the dive by them was tap water in a cooler... Bottled water
and hot dogs were available for $1 each... Considering the fact that they
are so much more than other less crowded boats out there, I would have
expected a better assortment of food and beverages included for that
price... Grace tends to get motion sick and as luck would have it, she
managed to succumb to it on the first dive... She signalled that she was
going up and for Kaitlyn and I to continue our dive... Once on the boat,
she managed to feel even sicker and sat out the rest of the dives...
Whereas the other boats say that you can make and hour dive, this boat
says that they will be at the site for an hour and as such, the last
person in the water ends up with quite a bit shorter dive than the first
person in the water... Of course since I had to get Grace and Kaitlyn
ready for their dives before I put on my gear, I was pretty much
guaranteed to be the last person in the water... The crew also needs to do
more to separate the divers from the snorkellers in that the snorkellers
tend to crowd around the exit point for the divers and as such, you have
to wait on them so that they don't end up with a tank in their heads as
you giant stride into the water... Of course, after you hit the first one,
they might get the hint... <evil-grin>

Oh well, other than that, Kaitlyn and I had 3 good dives... Water
temperature was cool enough that it was refreshing in most places and only
too warm in a very few places... She had a good time... Grace was *very*
glad to get back to port...
George Cathcart - 25 Jun 2007 01:44 GMT
On Jun 24, 6:33 pm, Grumman-581 <grumman581-rec-sc...@spambob.net>
wrote:
> > On my way... Se you Sunday 06/24.
>
[quoted text clipped - 51 lines]
> too warm in a very few places... She had a good time... Grace was *very*
> glad to get back to port...

Good report, and  good lessons learned about Halls and Looe Key. Who
did you dive with at Key Largo?
Lee Bell - 25 Jun 2007 14:13 GMT
> Good report, and  good lessons learned about Halls and Looe Key. Who
> did you dive with at Key Largo?

Before I say a word about the operators, let me say that I had a great time,
enjoyed meeting Kaitlyn, Grace, Dan, Pat and Arnold for the first time and
enjoyed seeing Grumman again. Special thanks to Dan and Pat for inviting me
to stay with them and for being such wonderful company. I enjoyed every
minute of every dive, with everyone one.  Operator issues did not, in any
way, keep me from enjoying myself.  The following addresses my observations
of the operators only and does not, in any way, reflect on the people I dove
with. I would do it again in a heartbeat.

We used Quiescence in Key Largo. I don't often choose an operator in the
upper Keys. I usually go with whoever the visiting divers select or take one
of my own boats. This time, I was asked to book for myself and others, so I
chose Quiescence. Everything I ever heard about them was good.  Our trip
confirmed the reports. I can now recommend them from personal experience
rather than hearsay. The shop personnel were efficient and very pleasant to
deal with. There was minimal fuss or administrative overhead. We filled out
our forms, paid for our trip and were on our way to the boat. The dock is
directly behind the shop, a plus not found with most Keys operators. Our
afternoon trip left an hour late thanks to people that failed to show up on
time for the morning trip. I consider it a significant plus that they would
wait on their AM divers and that they gave them their full share of full
length dives even though the divers, themselves, caused the boat to leave
late. It was even more of a plus that I those in the shop were asked if
anyone was OK with a late departure.  I volunteered us because two of our
group had not yet arrived. The late departure was by choice, not forced on
us.  We got our fair share of dives too, another plus. The captain and mate
were professional and helpful. In my opinion, they earned a tip. Not all
crews do. There was enough room to set up and we were not rushed in or out
of the water at all. We were asked to return an hour after we entered the
water rather than at a specific time. That's always good for me since my
Citizen HyperAqualand watch displays dive time once the dive starts. I also
appreciated the option to enter the water as we pleased, back roll from the
side or giant stride off the back. No lines at the entry point. Tanks were
brought to us at which ever entry point we chose which made things a bit
easier for everyone. Tanks were switched for us by the crew, something I
don't normally prefer. This time, the crew was clearly paying attention to
what they were doing. I use a DIN setup DIR style, a little less usual in
the Keys, with my primary running down to the right and everything else
configured accordingly. They got it right including running the LP inflator
hose under the two keepers. They left me nothing to complain about, so I
didn't complain. This is the first boat I can recall where I didn't mind
somebody else setting up my equipment. I don't recall that anyone on the
Quiescence boat asked for a tip. I might be wrong. Regardless, they didn't
have to ask me, I gave them one because they deserved it.

There were only a few things I would have liked to have seen done better. I
would have liked to see between dive fruit provided, something Halls did.
It's nice for the divers, and, if we had been doing deeper dives, would have
been a good idea from a hydration standpoint as well. I also like to see
some kind of cookies or crackers on board dive boats. Food that soaks up
liquids tend to help those who are prone to seasickness. It's a good idea
for any dive boat, but not as common as it once was. Personally, I prefer
animal crackers. Next time I dive with Quiescence, I'll take them some.
Perhaps they'll keep the plastic cookie jar full after that. The only real
negative happened after the dive. I was using my HP 100 cubic foot tanks on
dives with a combined average depth of 20 feet over a 2 hour period. Neither
of my tanks was even a third empty. I was charged $23 for topping off the
two tanks with banked 30%. That's more than a little high for the market,
particularly for customer just getting off a paid dive trip. This normally
would not bother me much since I don't often do multiday dives with Keys
charters. I normally get my tanks filled, and refilled closer to home, at
Fill Express in Pompano, where they charge by the cubic foot rather than by
the tank and do all nitrox fills between 21% and 50% from banked supplies.

The good far exceeded the very few less desirable elements.  I liked
everyone involved and will use Quiescence for my Key Largo diving until I
find someone better. None I've used in the past are as good. In the future,
however, I will make other arrangements for getting my tanks filled.

We used Halls in Marathon for the second day of diving. They were OK to deal
with, gave us our money's worth, and provided fresh fruit between dives.
There was nothing in particular to recommend against them or for them except
for one thing. Like all the other dives this weekend, we stayed shallow. My
tanks were still nearly full at the end of the day.  Bob, at the shop,
topped them off for me with nitrox quality air at no charge.  One stabilized
at the full 3,500 psi I expect in my HP 100s, the other was around 3,250. I
would have complained about the short fill had I been paying for it, but for
free, it was just fine, particularly since I knew I would be staying shallow
again the following day.  Points to Bob for being so nice.  It's people like
him that bring customers like me back.  I won't hesitate to use Halls again,
but other shops in the same area have also been recommended by others.

We used Looe Key Reef Resort on Ramrod Key for our third day of diving.  I
will not choose Looe Key Reef Resort again and will recommend against them
if asked in the future. I absolutely did not care for the people in the
shop, the crowded conditions on the boat, the $86 cost, the lack of discount
for those that brought their own tanks and weights and particularly did not
like the $1 per hot dog or bottled water charge on top of everything else.
Neither the DM nor the Captain seemed particularly helpful, but that didn't
stop them from openly asking for tips. I had two of my own tanks and planned
to use one of theirs. They had no DIN tanks and did not appear to even know
there was such a thing. That was confirmed later. I had an adapter, but
given how shallow the dives were, I was able to one of my tanks, the one
Halls filled to rated capacity, for two dives and did the third dive on my
less full one. I could have done all three on one tank, but there wasn't
much point in trying. As Grumman already pointed out, they set a "be on the
boat" time one hour from the briefing, less than an hour for all divers. I
was consistently one of the first divers in the water and still didn't
manage anything over 50 minutes. I didn't mind the slightly short dives as
much as I did that they were imposed on  us. When we returned to the dock,
they agreed to refill my tanks without charge. Had I know what would happen
next, I would not have let them. The individual that did the fills had never
even seen a DIN valve.  He hooked an A clamp fill whip up to my DIN valves
without an adapter. Lucky for him, I was standing there when he did. I had
him disconnect them, put the adapter slugs in the valves and we started
over. Neither of the tanks were filled to the normal 3,500. One was at
3,000, the other only slightly higher. Given that I had paid for three tanks
and gas I did not use, this was not exactly free and was not OK. Given that
there didn't seem to be any option, I let it go and chalked it up to
experience.  I'll have the tanks topped off at Fill Express later this week.

Looe Key Resort is a true cattle boat operation in the worst Keys tradition.
They cater to the inexperienced and to tourists, packing them on as tightly
as possible and soaking them for every available dollar. The least
experienced diver in our group, Grumman's brand new certified daughter, was
a better diver than almost everyone not part of our group. There's a place
in the Keys for operations like this, and Looe Key Reef Resort fits the need
perfectly. They reduce the number of divers too inexperienced to know better
that we have to put up with on the boats favored by the rest of us. Should
someone I want to meet and dive with select them in the future, I'd tolerate
the conditions again, but I would not recommend this operator or,
personally, choose them in the future.

Lee
Magilla - 26 Jun 2007 04:22 GMT
> Perhaps they'll keep the plastic cookie jar full after that. The only real
> negative happened after the dive. I was using my HP 100 cubic foot tanks
> on dives with a combined average depth of 20 feet over a 2 hour period.
> Neither of my tanks was even a third empty.

  My only comment, Monday evening quarterbacking of course, was why switch
tanks at all under those circumstances?  Even with my higher sac, I'll do 2
dives with one set of dubs for the shallows.  I recall you saying that you
with a 100 and me with dub 80s used the same "percentages", and I agreed
with the analysis.

> The good far exceeded the very few less desirable elements.  I liked
> everyone involved and will use Quiescence for my Key Largo diving until I
> find someone better. None I've used in the past are as good. In the
> future, however, I will make other arrangements for getting my tanks
> filled.

   As I always do down there.  I'm renting two Worthington 108s for cheaper
than I could get Nitrox filled AL80s in the Keys, not to mention finding one
that won't balk at not having those silly green and yellow stickers on my
tanks.

> We used Halls in Marathon for the second day of diving. They were OK to
> deal with, gave us our money's worth, and provided fresh fruit between
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> back.  I won't hesitate to use Halls again, but other shops in the same
> area have also been recommended by others.

  Good to hear, we're diving with them on Friday.

> Looe Key Resort is a true cattle boat operation in the worst Keys
> tradition. They cater to the inexperienced and to tourists, packing them
> on as tightly as possible and soaking them for every available dollar.

  Was waiting to hear about another we're using to do Looe.

  Tried to book John and I on the same one we're using in the morning for
two very shallow reefs for the A. Busch PM run.  Started with "if you're
diving in the AM, you may have too much residual Nitrogen to do that, it's
100 foot deep."  Shouldn't be a problem, morning dives are very shallow.
"You're using a computer, right?"  I was gonna just "don't ask, don't tell",
but figured I'd be straight up with him, and told him my buddy would have
one, but I used a B.T. with tables quite well, and had no use for one.  He
said his insurance company insisted that everyone he took to the A. Busch
use a computer, and would I use one?  Realizing he intended to try and RENT
me one and expect me to actually use it rather than carry a loaned one my
scooter ring where I could pee on it, I politely said no, I'd dive
elsewhere.  He then asked if we wanted to do a couple of reefs instead,
where I politely clarified that as meaning with another operator.  If we
weren't already group booked, I'd have cancelled my morning with them as
well, but I'm diving for the company, not the boat, so wasn't gonna rock it.

  Where's Rachel when we needed her?

Curtis
Lee Bell - 26 Jun 2007 11:41 GMT
>> Perhaps they'll keep the plastic cookie jar full after that. The only
>> real negative happened after the dive. I was using my HP 100 cubic foot
>> tanks on dives with a combined average depth of 20 feet over a 2 hour
>> period. Neither of my tanks was even a third empty.

> My only comment, Monday evening quarterbacking of course, was why switch
> tanks at all under those circumstances?  Even with my higher sac, I'll do
> 2 dives with one set of dubs for the shallows.  I recall you saying that
> you with a 100 and me with dub 80s used the same "percentages", and I
> agreed with the analysis.

I think I mentioned that my tank was swapped for me.  I considered using the
same tank for more than one dive, but at the time, it didn't seem worth the
effort of switching back. Then again, at the time, I didn't know using the
second tank was going to cost me $11.50.  Another factor is probably that
I'm spoiled by the fact that Fill Express charges by the cubic foot.  The
only difference, at fill express, between topping off two tanks and
refilling one is the effort required to lift them out and back in the
Durango.  You'll note that I used the same tank for two dives on our three
tank dive day.

> As I always do down there.  I'm renting two Worthington 108s for cheaper
> than I could get Nitrox filled AL80s in the Keys, not to mention finding
> one that won't balk at not having those silly green and yellow stickers on
> my tanks.

I expected problems with the lack of nitrox bands. I was a bit surprised
when I didn't have any. Personally, I don't consider using the bands to be
silly. I think it's a good idea in many environments, to have tanks clearly
marked as containing, or needing to be refilled with nitrox. An easy
examples include the Looe Key Reef Resort boat, where a couple of people
tried to hook their A clamp regulators to one of my DIN valve tanks and
succeeded in hooking up to the operator's tank I had set out for my own use.
My tanks were, as usual, full of nitrox. An even better example is the
spearfishing trip on which I got bent because the fill tech put air in my
nitrox tanks without telling me.  Had they had nitrox bands on them, that
would have been less likely to have happened. When Fill Express does a
visual on tanks, they take all stickers off. I don't normally put nitrox
stickers back on except for those I take on my spearfishing trips. The bands
are part of the fix that tries to ensure I don't get bent again like I did
several years ago.

>   Was waiting to hear about another we're using to do Looe.

I think Dan has plans to dive with someone else while you're down there.
You're going to have to call him if you want to know in advance. He does not
have a computer with him.

> Shouldn't be a problem, morning dives are very shallow. "You're using a
> computer, right?"

There's no getting away from those that cater to the lowest common
denominator and that's what you usually get when booking shallow trips. Our
group is more than a little different. Most of us are diving shallow only
because one of us prefers shallow dives, not because that's all any of us
are qualified for. The norm, in the Keys, is for the esperienced divers to
dive deeper and the once a year tourists to dive shallow. If you would have
been there, you would have seen the smoke coming out of my ears when one of
the dive shops recorded my 1969 NAUI "SCUBA" certification as "Open Water."
I came very close to insisting he do it right when I realized that, for the
dives we planned, it didn't make any difference.

The computer question is interesting. Two of our divers, who shall remain
anonymous, didn't turn their computers on. I turned mine on, but failed to
upgrade the mix after the first day of diving. I did 5 dives with it
thinking I was using 50% O2, 78% nitrogen, the computer's default when you
forget to reset it after a nitrox dive. Even at that, it thought my dives
were fine.  If you want to avoid the issues, stop by on your way down and
borrow one of my computers. I have a hose mount for at least one of them
that should not get in your way at all. Sometimes, it's easier to look as
expected than to teach the ignorant that there's more than one way to skin
the cat.

>   Where's Rachel when we needed her?

Darned if I know. The one day I had enough time to drive down and look for
her, I took a nap instead. If she's still down there, I'm going to find her.
It's just a matter of when. If you locate her, please get me a contact
number or something. I don't like it when friends seem to drop off the face
of the earth.

Lee
George Cathcart - 26 Jun 2007 12:06 GMT
An even better example is the
> spearfishing trip on which I got bent because the fill tech put air in my
> nitrox tanks without telling me.  Had they had nitrox bands on them, that
> would have been less likely to have happened.
>
> Lee

Did you analyze the fill before doing the dive? Whether the bands were
in place or not, it's still the diver's responsibility to analyze the
fill and dive accordingly. Had you done so, it is less likely you'd
have gotten bent.

gc
Lee Bell - 26 Jun 2007 12:49 GMT
> An even better example is the
>> spearfishing trip on which I got bent because the fill tech put air in my
>> nitrox tanks without telling me.  Had they had nitrox bands on them, that
>> would have been less likely to have happened.

> Did you analyze the fill before doing the dive? Whether the bands were
> in place or not, it's still the diver's responsibility to analyze the
> fill and dive accordingly. Had you done so, it is less likely you'd
> have gotten bent.

Gosh, George, I never thought of that.

This is an old event and has been discussed before, but you may not have
seen it. It was on a liveaboard with a membrane system. The system had a
wall mounted, easily visible O2 analyzer. I tested the first few fills with
my own analyzer and they were spot on. With a 6 to 7 dive a day schedule, it
was sometimes difficult enough to get things changed over between dives, let
alone independently test gas each time. I didn't anticipate that a fill tech
might hook an air whip to my nitrox tanks by accident and, since the
membrane system had always been consistent in previous trips and had the in
line analyzer, I got lazy and did not test each fill after it was in the
tank.  An in line analyzer only works when the gas entering the tank goes
through it. The analyzer read what it should, but the gas put into two of my
tanks did not go through it.

Under normal circumstances, odds are that the tech's mistake and my failure
to test every tank would not have made a difference. In this case, MOD was
still not an issue, but N2 loading was. At 6 to 7 dives a day, I was running
fairly close to my limit and one dive with air instead of  nitrox, actually
around 23% thanks to the 32% in the tank when it was filled, was enough to
put me over that limit. The tech incorrectly filled two of my tanks as well
as tanks used by several others. I felt the beginnings of problems and
tested the just used tank before using the second one. Apparently, I was the
only one close enough to my limit to have a problem. Neither of the other
divers whose tanks were incorrectly filled suffered the same problem and
even my bend was relatively mild. I was the only person on the boat with my
own analyzer.  When I discovered the problem with my fills, we tested others
filled at the same time.  They were all filled with air.  Knowing that, we
could adapt, but we all breathed one tank that was not what we expected
before we knew.

I've since modified my analyzer to make it easier and faster. It now uses a
barb and built in flow restrictor and works off my low pressure inflator
hose. Before I go this year, I will have added a second low pressure
inflation hose both for O2 testing and to make inflation of my rather large
safety sausage possible without disconnecting the one that fills my BCD at
the surface.

The point was that, had the nitrox bands been on the tank, the odds that the
fill tech would have mistakenly put air in them would have been reduced. The
fact that I did not test the gas after it went into the tank let his mistake
get me bent, but it didn't have any effect at all on the chances that the
mistake would be made. The consequences of the mistake would have been
different, but with or without testing, the incorrect fill had undesirable
consequences that would have been less likely with one of the bands than
without, which was the whole point. The bands are not always useless, or
silly, just sometimes.

Lee
George Cathcart - 26 Jun 2007 15:54 GMT
> > An even better example is the
> >> spearfishing trip on which I got bent because the fill tech put air in my
[quoted text clipped - 54 lines]
>
> Lee

Thanks for the explanation, Lee. I've not seen an in-line analyzer,
but I'm also not sure I would rely on that to tell me what's in the
tank I'm breathing from. The in-line analyzer would tell you the mix
for what went into your tank, but since that gets mixed with what was
already in your tank (unless it was empty), it doesn't tell you what
is coming out of your tank.

I understand what you're saying about the responsibility of the fill
tech to get it right, but my approach to diving, admittedly for a much
shorter time than you, is to take full responsibility for every aspect
of my dive. It's sort of like what I'm trying to teach my son about
driving. Never assume that the driver behind you, ahead of you or
beside you is sober, smart or even licensed. Expect him to be stupid
and act accordingly. I know you know that. It wasn't evident in your
first post, which is what I was responding to.
Lee Bell - 26 Jun 2007 19:01 GMT
> Thanks for the explanation, Lee. I've not seen an in-line analyzer,
> but I'm also not sure I would rely on that to tell me what's in the
> tank I'm breathing from.

They're pretty common. Just about everyone that does membrane fills, fills
from banked gas, or has a continuous blending system has one.  Some shops
and obviously at least one liveaboard rely on them, but most divers don't,
or shouldn't on a per fill basis. They're like any other analyzer, their
only as good as their battery and sensor.

> The in-line analyzer would tell you the mix for what went into your tank,
> but since that gets mixed with what was
> already in your tank (unless it was empty), it doesn't tell you what is
> coming out of your tank.

It does when you start with 32% and the only nitrox available on the boat is
more 32%, which was the case.

> I understand what you're saying about the responsibility of the fill tech
> to get it right, but my approach to diving, admittedly for a
> much shorter time than you, is to take full responsibility for every
> aspect of my dive.

> It's sort of like what I'm trying to teach my son about
> driving. Never assume that the driver behind you, ahead of you or
> beside you is sober, smart or even licensed. Expect him to be stupid
> and act accordingly. I know you know that. It wasn't evident in your
> first post, which is what I was responding to.

A good approach, but that does not relieve others from their responsibility,
or make it less wise to take steps to help ensure that they do their part.
Figure it's like walking down the street at night. You are responsible for
staying out of the traffic lanes used by cars, but you can help ensure that
you don't get run over anyway, by wearing something visible. The green and
yellow bands are visible.

The fundamental mistake that led to my being bent was putting the wrong gas
in my tank, particularly since I had a written contract for 32% that I paid
extra for. I'm not to blame for that mistake even though I am partly to
blame for not catching it before using the gas.

Lee
George Cathcart - 26 Jun 2007 19:18 GMT
> A good approach, but that does not relieve others from their responsibility,
> or make it less wise to take steps to help ensure that they do their part.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Lee

I don't think we disagree. In the analogy I used, the stupid, drunk or
unlicensed driver who hits my car is at fault and liable. But that is
no comfort to me if I'm hurt or killed. My goal isn't to be right,
it's to avoid getting hurt. If my safety depends on someone else doing
his job right, I have a responsibility to myself to make sure he does
that job right. In the case of Nitrox, I know what I need to do to
avoid getting hurt, which includes verifying the mix and diving a
profile within the limits of that mix. How much blame you assign the
other person and how much to yourself is up to you. I would probably
be harder on myself than you are being on yourself. That's just me.
Lee Bell - 27 Jun 2007 01:53 GMT
> I don't think we disagree.

I don't think we do either.

>  In the analogy I used, the stupid, drunk or
> unlicensed driver who hits my car is at fault and liable. But that is
> no comfort to me if I'm hurt or killed. My goal isn't to be right,
> it's to avoid getting hurt.

Using the nitrox bands when appropriate is part of my plan for doing just
that. It's just not the whole plan.

Lee
JOF - 26 Jun 2007 23:12 GMT
> > Thanks for the explanation, Lee. I've not seen an in-line analyzer,
> > but I'm also not sure I would rely on that to tell me what's in the
[quoted text clipped - 37 lines]
>
> Lee

Some here would say we can't depend on anyone but ourselves with
potentially life threatening dive preparation issues. We haven't had
those discussions here recently but perhaps your problem is a good
reminder that none of us should become complacent. Even under the most
benign conditions we're all vulnerable to human error. We can at least
eliminate the other guy's frailties from the equation.

That being said I remember taking Terry's word that the two tanks I
rented were 32 or whatever we were using that one day. No one had an
analyzer there (including Terry). I got my own (through Scott) shortly
after that.

JF
Magilla - 27 Jun 2007 02:16 GMT
> I expected problems with the lack of nitrox bands. I was a bit surprised
> when I didn't have any. Personally, I don't consider using the bands to be
> silly. I think it's a good idea in many environments, to have tanks
> clearly marked as containing, or needing to be refilled with nitrox.

   Aye, but as you know, my bases are covered much more precisely there.
All my doubles have my last name on both sides, and my stages have that and
the MOD on them, both sides in 3" print.  That MOD tells you how deep you
can use the gas, pure and simple, no calculating for various mixes.  The
name means "my tanks, hands wishing to remain intact do not touch."  And, my
primary reg has "buddy gas" written all over it.  ;-)

> I think Dan has plans to dive with someone else while you're down there.
> You're going to have to call him if you want to know in advance. He does
> not have a computer with him.

 We're doing two boats with Dan & Patti, and one with Arnold.  When they're
on flight countdown is when we're going to do something else.  Got a phone
message today, Tilden's is taking John & I to the Thunderbolt on Sunday AM.

> If you want to avoid the issues, stop by on your way down and borrow one
> of my computers. I have a hose mount for at least one of them that should
> not get in your way at all. Sometimes, it's easier to look as expected
> than to teach the ignorant that there's more than one way to skin the cat.

  Figured that my BT looks enough like a dive computer that the guy who
doesn't know DIN won't know it's not a dive computer either.  Just this guy
was acting like he wanted to see my NDLs.

>>   Where's Rachel when we needed her?
> If you locate her, please get me a contact number or something. I don't
> like it when friends seem to drop off the face of the earth.

   You got it.

Curtis
Lee Bell - 27 Jun 2007 12:37 GMT
>> I expected problems with the lack of nitrox bands. I was a bit surprised
>> when I didn't have any. Personally, I don't consider using the bands to
>> be silly. I think it's a good idea in many environments, to have tanks
>> clearly marked as containing, or needing to be refilled with nitrox.

> Aye, but as you know, my bases are covered much more precisely there. All
> my doubles have my last name on both sides . . .

Yes, but that does help ensure the liveaboard fill jockey will put the right
stuff in them or make it easy to get a fill when the same, relatively
ignorant, fill jockey has been told not to fill any without the bands. The
bands are not always necessary and don't always make it easier to get the
gas you need, but sometimes they do.

> . . . and my stages have that and the MOD on them, both sides in 3" print.
> That MOD tells you how deep you can use the gas, pure and simple, no
> calculating for various mixes.  The name means "my tanks, hands wishing
> to remain intact do not touch."  And, my primary reg has "buddy gas"
> written all over it.  ;-)

Fine as long as only you fill your tanks. Not so good as soon as you turn
them over to someone
else to fill. How were you planning on handling that this weekend? How would
you handle it if
you were planning a week of diving in the Keys?

What's your depth/time plan for the Thunderbolt look like?

Anyway, have fun. I'll be working on making sure the 15 footer is ready to
go while you guys are diving. I'm leaving for Homosassa on the 4th to visit
with my father and spend some time chasing bay scallops around the Gulf. I
probably won't take tanks with me unless I can figure out a way to make
Jayna want to get back in the water with one.

Lee
Magilla - 28 Jun 2007 01:10 GMT
> Fine as long as only you fill your tanks. Not so good as soon as you turn
> them over to someone
> else to fill.

   I generally do not fill my own tanks, but have trusted and knowledgeable
people I deal with.

> How were you planning on handling that this weekend?

   2 sets dub AL80s, 2 LP 108s & 2 stages, none have short fills.

   Air top-off for one set of tanks for shallow reef if needed.

   Shallow will be either two dives on one set of dubs, or LP 108,
depending.

> How would you handle it if
> you were planning a week of diving in the Keys?

   Not likely, but if I did, I'd find a solution.

> What's your depth/time plan for the Thunderbolt look like?

   20 min BT max, AOW buddy compatible.

> Anyway, have fun. I'll be working on making sure the 15 footer is ready to
> go while you guys are diving. I'm leaving for Homosassa on the 4th to
> visit with my father and spend some time chasing bay scallops around the
> Gulf. I probably won't take tanks with me unless I can figure out a way to
> make Jayna want to get back in the water with one.

   Probably talk to you before then.

Curtis
Grumman-581 - 28 Jun 2007 14:26 GMT
> Not likely, but if I did, I'd find a solution.

Yeah, there's a Home Depot here in Marathon... I'm sure there is enough
stuff there that we can rig up *some* type of solution... <evil-grin>

As a side note, I've noticed that they have a better assortment of
stainless steel hardware so resorting to brass/bronze like we did last
time would probably not be necessary...

I was out walking along the marina area here at Banana Bay Resort this
evening before it got dark and I saw over a dozen lobsters in the rocks
along the edge of some of the marina slips... I also say a nurse shark
that was about 5-6 ft long cruising along the rocks looking for lobsters
and whatever... A couple of dismembered lobsters which I assume had
managed to not hide well enough from the shark...
Magilla - 29 Jun 2007 04:49 GMT
> Anyway, have fun. I'll be working on making sure the 15 footer is ready to
> go while you guys are diving. I'm leaving for Homosassa on the 4th to
> visit with my father and spend some time chasing bay scallops around the
> Gulf. I probably won't take tanks with me unless I can figure out a way to
> make Jayna want to get back in the water with one.

  Keep em all in line for the weekend, I'm about to hit the shower, after a
13 hour work day, and head over to the airport.  John should be landing in
less than an hour, then we're heading south.  Be in Marathon after the
marathon night drive in time for breakfast.

Curtis
Grumman-581 - 28 Jun 2007 14:26 GMT
>     Aye, but as you know, my bases are covered much more precisely there.
> All my doubles have my last name on both sides, and my stages have that and
> the MOD on them, both sides in 3" print.  That MOD tells you how deep you
> can use the gas, pure and simple, no calculating for various mixes.  The
> name means "my tanks, hands wishing to remain intact do not touch."

On our dives with the Hall's cattle boat the other day, someone grabbed
one of my tanks and used it instead of the shop / rental tanks... Of
course, it looked a bit different than all the rental tanks and had a
different inspection sticker (from a different state), but that didn't
stop someone from using the wrong tank... Considering how shallow the
dives were, the only way that it could have caused him a problem would
have been if I had had 100% O2 in it... Oh well, perhaps I got the last
laugh though since that tank probably only had 2500 psi in it at the time
and they filled it back up for me for free to 3000 psi...
Grumman-581 - 26 Jun 2007 15:14 GMT
> Before I say a word about the operators, let me say that I had a great time,
> enjoyed meeting Kaitlyn, Grace, Dan, Pat and Arnold for the first time and
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> of the operators only and does not, in any way, reflect on the people I dove
> with. I would do it again in a heartbeat.

Agreed... I was a bit pressed for time when I wrote the previous post...
The hotel that I'm at does not have WiFi throughout the complex, it only
has it in their office area... Grace and I had gone over there so that she
could schedule flights for the next couple of weeks and I had brought my
laptop over there also to check email and the newsgroup postings... It
didn't take her long to schedule her flights, so my review was perhaps a
bit terse... It was definitely nice meeting Dan, Pat, and Arnold for the
first time and seeing Lee again...

> I also like to see some kind of cookies or crackers on board dive boats.
> Food that soaks up liquids tend to help those who are prone to
> seasickness.

On my last Florida dive trip, the boat that I was using kept a good supply
of animal crackers and goldfish crackers... I don't particularly like the
goldfish type crackers, but animal crackers are nice to have... Hell, up
until this weekend's dives, I was under the impression that they wouldn't
let a dive boat untie from the dock without a sufficient supply of animal
crackers!  

> We used Halls in Marathon for the second day of diving. They were OK to
> deal with, gave us our money's worth, and provided fresh fruit between
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> like me back.  I won't hesitate to use Halls again, but other shops in
> the same area have also been recommended by others.

Prior to getting on the boat at Hall's, I had them top off one of my
AL80s... I had 2 tanks that were down around 2500-2700 psi and another
that was very low... It was only going to be a 2-tank dive, but I figured
that I would use the 2 tanks that were a bit low in a twin setup and swap
out the one that I empty first... As such, I wanted a bit more air in the
third tank just in case I needed it... Turns out that the third tank only
had around 300 psi in it... I'll have to look on my receipt, but I don't
think that they charged me for the 'top off'...

> The least experienced diver in our group, Grumman's brand new certified
> daughter, was a better diver than almost everyone not part of our group.

Coming from someone with the dive experience of you, that's pretty damn
high praise of a 12-year old... All in all, I would have to say that she
did pretty good, especially considering the fact that it was her first
dive in a horsecollar BC... Since Grace would never let me live it down if
I manag