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Scuba Forum / General / July 2007"How dry I aaaaaaaaaammmm" :-)
Just got back from Dutch Springs, having passed the dry suit course and enjoyed the Pig Roast! Highlight of the day was meeting Al Wells there!!! My first rec.scuban face to face! My sincere regrets thought that it was only a "meet & greet." We will coordinate our schedules and get some dives in at some point - either there or on one of the NJ Shore boats. The dry suit dives went better than expected, albeit with some issues but nothing major. Of course it will take time to get the buoyancy perfected, and learning (of all things) how to kick again. A lot more power needed to kick in one of those things especially with the restricted movement of the suit. I gotta lose more weight - both on my body an in the BC pockets. The instructor wants me to drop another 4lbs for the next set of dives, albeit in the BC not in the legs (for which I will maintain 2 large ankle weights on each side for 12lbs total. I didn't feel so bad since I saw that even he uses 1 set each. The only noteworthy issue was on the 2nd dive when I got way too cold. And that was because I didn't doff all of my protective undergarments during the surface interval. So I was sweating like "the pig on that grill" up in the tented area (but it (the pig) tasted yuuummmy)! And I sure felt it going down the 2nd dive. Both dives were to 60ffw Water temp 42°F . For those who know Dutch, we basically went off the Peninsula side, down to the platforms and followed the line to the crane and back. So I'll be back out at Dutch for one more practice session before I'm off to the FFK's with Dan (and to meet some of you other rec.scubans). And then my first NJ Shore boat dive will be just after 4th of July. ____________________________________________ Regards, Arnold > Just got back from Dutch Springs, having passed the dry suit course and enjoyed the Pig Roast! > > Highlight of the day was meeting Al Wells there!!! My first rec.scuban face to face! My sincere > regrets thought that it was only a "meet & greet." We will coordinate our schedules and get > some dives in at some point - either there or on one of the NJ Shore boats. Yer lucky. I had to go all the way to Florida to meet Al. He's a great guy and a helluva diver, but don't get between him and a buxom waitress. I thought we were gonna have a stabbing one day at a restaurant. Al was leering at our comely young server's chest (he claims it was her flashing neon pen which had somehow become lodged in her cleavage) and I noticed an overly protective homeboy ESG lining up his fork and Al's tongue which was pretty much laying on the table at the time. Fortunately the young lady removed her flashing pen from said cleavage and Al slurped up the offending tongue just in time. That coulda been really embarrassing for all, and messy. JF > Yer lucky. I had to go all the way to Florida to meet Al. How far are you from Brockville? I haven't made any arrangements yet, but I will definitely do at least one extended weekend there in August. George says he wants to try some of the diving there. A few others from here have expressed interest in doing some dives there. I'm out of here for the day in a few minutes (the NASCAR redneckfest is in town), so I'll email you later. > Al was leering at our comely young server's chest (he > claims it was her flashing neon pen which had somehow become lodged in > her cleavage) That's my story and I'm stickin' to it. > In article <1180816979.952103.299...@u30g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>, > jofran...@gmail.com says... [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > for the day in a few minutes (the NASCAR redneckfest is in town), so > I'll email you later. I'm about 5 hours from Brockville. JF > The dry suit dives went better than expected, albeit with some issues but nothing major. Of > course it will take time to get the buoyancy perfected, and learning (of all things) how to kick [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > legs (for which I will maintain 2 large ankle weights on each side for 12lbs total. I didn't feel > so bad since I saw that even he uses 1 set each. Yikes. Ankle weights are generally viewed as a crutch, for divers that don't have their drysuit buoyancy skills perfectly honed. I can see a new diver like you wearing a pair, but certainly not two pairs. The fact that your instructor is wearing ankle weights would lead me quickly to find a new instructor. Greg Mossman <mossman@qnet.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: :Ankle weights are generally viewed as a crutch, for divers that don't :have their drysuit buoyancy skills perfectly honed. I can see a new :diver like you wearing a pair, but certainly not two pairs. The fact :that your instructor is wearing ankle weights would lead me quickly to :find a new instructor. Ankle weights are a way to distribute weight to places other than your weight belt. In the days before BCs had weight pockets, they were a viable option. To a certain extent, they still are. I've been known to put one around the neck of my tank. Dan Bracuk If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure. > Greg Mossman <mossman@qnet.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting > in: [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > viable option. To a certain extent, they still are. I've been known > to put one around the neck of my tank. If you have a suit with stiff neoprene boots ( which may have an advantage on rocky shoresides), ankle weights help keeping your feet neutral and balanced, and considerably ease fin motion by neutralizing the boots lift. Rockboots may be an alternative here, though. Matthias > > The dry suit dives went better than expected, albeit with some issues but nothing major. Of > > course it will take time to get the buoyancy perfected, and learning (of all things) how to kick [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > that your instructor is wearing ankle weights would lead me quickly to > find a new instructor. Ditto. Do a bunch of dives at 20 ft in an environment where you don't have any other tasks, just swimming around and working on buoyancy. Take off the ankle weights and just put your feet where you want them. In a properly-fitting shell suit it won't take long. Once you are in control at 10-30 ft, other depths will be easy. * > Ditto. Do a bunch of dives at 20 ft in an environment where you don't > have any other tasks, just swimming around and working on buoyancy. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > * Hey gorgeous. I think you owe me a couple e-mails. And when are you guys coming over to take advantage of our hospitality? > > Ditto. Do a bunch of dives at 20 ft in an environment where you don't > > have any other tasks, just swimming around and working on buoyancy. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > And when are you guys coming over to take advantage of our hospitality? YGM. * I dive on a regular basis with about 15 guys. We all dive dry! I don't think there's a single one of us that doesn't use ankle weights. Judging by the grey hair we have about a million years diving experience collectively. Some are instructors as well a dive masters. >> The fact that your instructor is wearing ankle weights would lead me >> quickly to find a new instructor.>> Poor Advice! > I dive on a regular basis with about 15 guys. We all dive dry! I don't think > there's a single one of us that doesn't use ankle weights. Judging by the > grey hair we have about a million years diving experience collectively. Some > are instructors as well a dive masters. Amkle weights are like training wheels. Use proper fins and posture, and you wont need them. > Amkle weights are like training wheels. > > Use proper fins and posture, and you wont need them. Yeah, right... Tell *that* to the guy in the Mk-V... > > I dive on a regular basis with about 15 guys. We all dive dry! I don't > think [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Use proper fins and posture, and you wont need them. I've been diving dry since late 1999. I don't use ankle weights, though perhaps the DUI rock boots are equivalent ;-) There may be folks for who that technique is the only way. Before making that assessment though, I'd have to see 'em Generally, though, I agree with your assessment. Or, more succinctly, metoo! ;-) Dennis Dennis > > > I dive on a regular basis with about 15 guys. We all dive dry! I don't > > think [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > metoo! > ;-) Me too. =;-) > > > Amkle weights are like training wheels. > > > > Use proper fins and posture, and you wont need them. > > > I've been diving dry since late 1999. Yeah, me too. Of course I've been diving wet since the last time I dove dry, back in late 2005. I do plan on remedying that soon, but I've been telling myself that since late 2005. > > I don't use ankle weights, though perhaps the DUI rock boots are > equivalent > > ;-) Especially with all the lead in them from shooting yourself in the foot so often. (rare smiley --> :) ) I used to like ankle weights mainly for the gaiter effect of keeping air from collecting at my feet, but soon realized I was just using too much air. I wouldn't mind a pair of rock boots, though, something I'll definitely consider if I start diving dry again to any great extent. I miss the local diving. It's getting up at 4 a.m. to drive down to the dock and board a smelly boat in the frigid dark for a long choppy ride to the islands that I don't miss. > > There may be folks for who that technique is the only way. > > Before making that assessment though, I'd have to see 'em [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > =;-) I guess I can't complain about me-toos (or accompanying smileys) when they're on my side. It's nice we can all agree on something for a change. Diving is a good equalizer, at least for those of us who are more equal than others. We can all sit on the same side and laugh at the shoddy instructors and dive agencies and gear shills out there, no matter what our party affiliation. (except that I'll die before wearing a backplate on a rec dive!) > (except that I'll die before wearing a backplate on a rec dive!) The reasons to do so are the same as the reasons to dive one on a technical dive. It's simply a good system that contributes to good trim and takes weight off the waist in the process. Those that don't carry weight, which I'm positive does not include you or me, need not worry about it. For everyone else, it's an advantage. Lee > > (except that I'll die before wearing a backplate on a rec dive!) > > The reasons to do so are the same as the reasons to dive one on a technical > dive. It's simply a good system that contributes to good trim and takes > weight off the waist in the process. > Those that don't carry weight, which I'm positive does not include you or > me, need not worry about it. For everyone else, it's an advantage. You'd be wrong. I don't carry weight on my waist and my trim is perfectly adequate, if not stupendous, for single-tank rec dives. If I want or need more stability, I'll use doubles, along with a backplate. > Highlight of the day was meeting Al Wells there!!! My first rec.scuban face to face! My sincere > regrets thought that it was only a "meet & greet." We will coordinate our schedules and get > some dives in at some point - either there or on one of the NJ Shore boats. It was a pleasure to meet you Arnold. After I got filled, I drove to the other side, where I could park right next to a picnic table and have just a short walk down the hill to the water. > The dry suit dives went better than expected, albeit with some issues but nothing major. Of > course it will take time to get the buoyancy perfected, and learning (of all things) how to kick > again. A lot more power needed to kick in one of those things especially with the restricted > movement of the suit. do you think the ankle weights might have something to do with that? <g> While we were talking, I forgot all about the gators that I had with me. al >> Highlight of the day was meeting Al Wells there!!! My first rec.scuban face to face! My sincere >> regrets thought that it was only a "meet & greet." We will coordinate our schedules and get [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >other side, where I could park right next to a picnic table and have >just a short walk down the hill to the water. Ah, so that's where you went. I was looking for you at those other tables we saw to say goodbye as l left but couldn't find you. Yeah, the student side is much easier as you can actually park down on the water's edge if you get there early enough, and I usually do. >> The dry suit dives went better than expected, albeit with some issues but nothing major. Of >> course it will take time to get the buoyancy perfected, and learning (of all things) how to kick [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >do you think the ankle weights might have something to do with that? <g> >While we were talking, I forgot all about the gators that I had with me. I would like to try dropping a pair for the next practice run and see if that helps. Since my instructor wants me to drop another 4lbs, I gather it can come from there. He (the instructor - the one you met grilling the burgers etc.) doesn't want me to drop the weight fom there but I'd be willing to try. I know I don't have this trouble when I dive wet, but then again, I also have bigger/heavier fins when wet. Too bad they don't fit with the DUI rock boots. BTW, I asked him about the gators as well and he "didn't recommend them." But I'd be willing to try them if you'd like to bring them when we're out there next. ____________________________________________ Regards, Arnold > Just got back from Dutch Springs, having passed the dry suit course and enjoyed the Pig Roast! > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > legs (for which I will maintain 2 large ankle weights on each side for 12lbs total. I didn't feel > so bad since I saw that even he uses 1 set each. Most often folks who overinflate their drysuit use ankleweights to try and compensate, remember just add enough gas to prevent squeeze. Not inflating your enough drysuit will cause it to constrict movement, and not insulate well. All this sounds conradictory but with practice it will become second nature. Some instructors will want you to use your drysuit as your bouyancy compensation don't it will make the drysuit have a big moving bubble of air in it and makes things hard to manage. > The only noteworthy issue was on the 2nd dive when I got way too cold. And that was because I > didn't doff all of my protective undergarments during the surface interval. So I was sweating > like "the pig on that grill" up in the tented area (but it (the pig) tasted yuuummmy)! And I sure > felt it going down the 2nd dive. Both dives were to 60ffw Water temp 42°F . For those who know > Dutch, we basically went off the Peninsula side, down to the platforms and followed the line to > the crane and back. See above John <snip> > Most often folks who overinflate their drysuit use ankleweights to try > and compensate, remember just add enough gas to prevent squeeze. Not [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > drysuit as your bouyancy compensation don't it will make the drysuit > have a big moving bubble of air in it and makes things hard to manage. <snip> As I recall, PADI's course teaches you to use only the dry suit for buoyancy under normal conditions. I did so on the training dives and for about 2 dives afterward, and excess leg buoyancy--and thus balance--was a problem. Another instructor suggested the same thing you suggest during a conversation at the LDS. It works *much* better, at least for me. This is true even though my knees are usually bent to keep from stirring up the silt on or in whatever wreck I'm on and I don't use gaiters. However, I find that a bit more air than absolutely necessary to prevent squeeze keeps me warmer--but not enough for that big bubble to form. It's still not the same for me as driving wet because wet I use a 7mm farmer john and the double layer up top makes the center of buoyancy higher than when diving dry, when the center of buoyancy is a bit lower. I can see how some people might need--or at least be more comfortable with--ankle weights even though I don't need or want them. Also I think you have to consider the rest of the dive gear. An SS backplate with AL80 doubles also shifts the weight higher, but not *quite* enough for me to want ankle weights. (With steel HP100s, life is good even though I drop some belt weight due to the lower tank buoyancy.) My wings are bungied, which helps keep them in trim. My main BC (for diving singles) is a back inflator with stretchy material over the bladder (it's a Chute III) and behaves similarly to the BP/W. My old BC is jacket-style. While I've never dived it dry I can imagine that ankle weights might be nice to have using that BC with an AL80. -- John Eells > Some instructors will want you to use your drysuit as your bouyancy > compensation don't it will make the drysuit have a big moving bubble > of air in it and makes things hard to manage. Not if you're properly weighted.  SignatureArt Greenberg artg at eclipse dot net >> Some instructors will want you to use your drysuit as your bouyancy >> compensation don't it will make the drysuit have a big moving bubble >> of air in it and makes things hard to manage. > > Not if you're properly weighted. So many things are easier if properly weighted :-) All to often the quick solution is add weight, and subsequently overinflated the BCD to compensate instead of spending more time to get it right. I agree it is doable, but in all the cases I have assisted a diver, who was having trouble being comfortable in the water with a drysuit. Starting out by getting rid of ankle weights, and just using enough inflation in the drysuit to remove squeeze, worked in a dive or two to make them comfortable. John >I agree it is doable, but in all the cases I have assisted a diver, who >was having trouble being comfortable in the water with a drysuit. >Starting out by getting rid of ankle weights, and just using enough >inflation in the drysuit to remove squeeze, worked in a dive or two to >make them comfortable. Which is where I aspire to be after the next two dives (at least have one pair of ankle weights gone if not both). What I want to do is take them down onto one of the underwater platforms at Dutch, and just leave them there if I need them. I'd then simply work around the platform getting the weighting right and trying to stay level with the platform (swimming around the outside of it). Once I can do that, then I'll try to go deeper to test my skill at adding gas to the suit to avoid squeeze. But I agree that the ankle weights might be what's causing me kicking issues. The faster I lose them, the easier/more effective my kicking will be. The problem I have is that none of my buddies will want to wait around for me to do all of that practice/weighting stuff. They'd rather be exploring.... Ah well. But I need to get that right before I begin my ocean dives this summer. ____________________________________________ Regards, Arnold >> I agree it is doable, but in all the cases I have assisted a diver, who >> was having trouble being comfortable in the water with a drysuit. [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Arnold Well if you get down toward Northern Va I'll be happy to dive with you John > The problem I have is that none of my buddies will want to wait around for me > to do all of that practice/weighting stuff. They'd rather be exploring.... Ah well. > But I need to get that right before I begin my ocean dives this summer. I too can help with that. When do you want to go to dutch? >> The problem I have is that none of my buddies will want to wait around for me >> to do all of that practice/weighting stuff. They'd rather be exploring.... Ah well. >> But I need to get that right before I begin my ocean dives this summer. > >I too can help with that. When do you want to go to dutch? Just shot you an e-mail. Thanks. ____________________________________________ Regards, Arnold > I too can help with that. When do you want to go to dutch? We always go "Dutch", when are you treating? :-) mag3 <zmpmag3-plongee@yahoo.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: :Which is where I aspire to be after the next two dives (at least have one :pair of ankle weights gone if not both). What I want to do is take them [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] :to do all of that practice/weighting stuff. They'd rather be exploring.... Ah well. :But I need to get that right before I begin my ocean dives this summer. You won't need them in Florida. Dan Bracuk If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure. >:The problem I have is that none of my buddies will want to wait around for me >:to do all of that practice/weighting stuff. They'd rather be exploring.... Ah well. >:But I need to get that right before I begin my ocean dives this summer. > >You won't need them in Florida. Much obliged. Do we have the shop chosen yet for 06/24 (Looe Key)? ____________________________________________ Regards, Arnold mag3 <zmpmag3-plongee@yahoo.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: :Much obliged. Do we have the shop chosen yet for 06/24 (Looe Key)? Not yet. I'm leaning towards the 3 tanker. Dan Bracuk If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure. "Dan Bracuk" You near your phone? "\"Magilla\"" <cavey_curtis@$$ yahoo.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: :"Dan Bracuk" : : You near your phone? yes, I'm talking to you on it. Dan Bracuk If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure. <snip> > The problem I have is that none of my buddies will want to wait around for me > to do all of that practice/weighting stuff. They'd rather be exploring.... Ah well. > But I need to get that right before I begin my ocean dives this summer. Well, I know you're a good ways from Northern Alabama, but were we in the same area I'd be happy to work with you on this. Dennis > I didn't feel > so bad since I saw that even he uses 1 set each. Al? Ankle weights? Ho, ho, ho... > Al? Ankle weights? Ho, ho, ho... Oh, phew. I see that I misread it. I'm not the least bit surprised that an instructor at Dutch would be wearing ankle weights. In fact, I'd be surprised to see one who wasn't. Apologies, Al. >> Al? Ankle weights? Ho, ho, ho... > > Oh, phew. I see that I misread it. I'm not the least bit surprised that > an instructor at Dutch would be wearing ankle weights. In fact, I'd be > surprised to see one who wasn't. <cough> > Apologies, Al. You guys are funny. First off I agree with adjusting the weight and trim to achieve the most control with the least weight . But you should read your posts and remember your positions on weight and air verse's squeeze. In an earlier thread that started with a question of proper weight most all of you said you prefer to dive with an extra pound or two because air is warmth. Now you all say get the weight off so you only need to eliminate squeeze. Lets try to be consistent! Total weight still come down to one thing only. Being able to maintain neutral buoyancy at 15 feet with 500 psi in your tank and being warm and comfortable doing it. So when you go to Dutch do your dive with your buddies and at the end while you have about 500 psi in your tank stop at the platform and test your ability to be come neutral. Have a good portion of your weight set up so you can drop it easily. Blow all the air out of your BC and dry suit. Add back a couple of blips of air to the suit and see how negative you really are. Drop part of your weight till you feel a bit bouncy and then add back a pound or two. The whole process will take only a few seconds and your buddies will have no problem helping out. Once you know how much weight to carry then consider where to carry it. On your waist, BC pockets, BC Trim pockets, ankle weights. You can test your placement on your next dive. If you use a couple of clip on weights you can move it around during the dive. Clip it on a shoulder D-ring move it to a lower point such as a pocket etc. You want the weight to be positioned so you maintained a level swimming position. Often ankle weights will cause your kick swing to be a bit lower than the center of the body. If you weight is distributed too low you will ascend when kicking and lay level when relaxed. You may have to have weight high on the body as opposed to removing the ankle weights. Next assume a head down position to test your ability to control your legs when they fill with the bulk of the air in your suit. You will appreciate the ankle weights! If you feel you can't control your legs like that remember to pull them in to your chest and point your feet down as if to stand up. This will drive them down and shift the air back into the body of the suit. Don't be afraid to experiment a bit. In the beginning a pound or two of extra weight is ok. As you become more comfortable with yourself you will be able to drop it or you may find you prefer it for the extra air it allows. John >>> Al? Ankle weights? Ho, ho, ho... >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >> Apologies, Al. > Total weight still come down to one thing only. Being able to > maintain neutral buoyancy at 15 feet with 500 psi in your tank and > being warm and comfortable doing it. No. That establishes a LOWER limit only. It would be silly to have twice the amount of weight necessary to achieve this goal. One needs to consider the consequences of TOO MUCH weight. All of those consequences are BAD. One more thing. If the drysuit isn't compressible (e.g., trilaminate or crushed neoprene), depth at which one conducts this test is irrelevant (though it might be relevant for other reasons, like having enough breathing gas to end the dive safely). > So when you go to Dutch do your dive with your buddies and at the end > while you have about 500 psi in your tank stop at the platform and > test your ability to be come neutral. If possible, I'd even go for less gas remaining. One needs to be able to control ascent with an empty tank, as might be the case if an uncontrollable free-flow had taken place. Of course, a buddy with an octo or long hose is necessary .... If one knows the characteristics of the dive cylinder, the weight of remaining gas can be calculated, and taken into account by adding that much to ballast. For example, at 3000 psi, my cylinder holds 100cf of air. That's about 7.8 pounds. At 1500 psi, it would be about half of that, or 3.9 pounds. So, if I am neutral at 1500 psi in the cylinder and I have little or no inflation of my BC, I should add 4 pounds. [ snip stuff about trim ] Proper trim is important. But I would defer working on trim until the proper amount of weight is known. One thing at a time. > Next assume a head down position to test your ability to control your > legs when they fill with the bulk of the air in your suit. You will > appreciate the ankle weights! Too funny. What ankle weights? If you have enough gas in your suit that doing this is a problem (as in your boots pop off), you have TOO MUCH gas in that suit. If you are horizontal in the water, some gas will migrate into your legs and feet over time, no matter if you're using a flutter kick or modified frog kick, since at least some of the time your feet will be above your back. With the proper amount of inflation gas, this is not a problem. > In the beginning a pound or two of extra weight is ok. As you become > more comfortable with yourself you will be able to drop it or you may > find you prefer it for the extra air it allows. I'll sometimes use a few extra pounds when I'm diving in colder water, and I expect the dive to be long. But I prefer to carry as little weight as possible. We've all been beginners. I'll bet that most, if not all of us, started out with way too much ballast. It makes sense to start out heavy, since the problems introduced by being too light are rather serious. We don't really know how much weight is correct for our own equipment, displacement and density, and the usual formulae used to estimate proper ballast (e.g., 10% of body weight) are very conservative. And since we're unsure of ourselves at that stage, we're keeping too much air in our lungs (and in our drysuit), making the extra weight necessary. There is definitely a correlation between comfort level and experience, and the ability to use less ballast. SignatureArt Greenberg artg at eclipse dot net > You guys are funny. Yup. Learn to frog kick while keeping you knees bent at different angles and all that business about clipping weights will be unnecessary. >Just got back from Dutch Springs, having passed the dry suit course and enjoyed the Pig Roast! > >Highlight of the day was meeting Al Wells there!!! My first rec.scuban face to face! My sincere >regrets thought that it was only a "meet & greet." We will coordinate our schedules and get >some dives in at some point - either there or on one of the NJ Shore boats. Update: Today Al and I finally got a chance to dive at Dutch, and what a difference it made! Al helped me by supplying a loaner pair of gaiters and reviewing my weights and trim. I even helped myself a little by switiching away from the rock boots and OMS Thrust fins, and going back to my wet suit boots (over the dry suit) and my Oceanic Vortex V12's (longer and heavier than the OMS). I kept the same amount of weights as last week (18lbs) and no ankle weights. It worked, and worked well! I had no issues with kicking, nor did my legs come up at all. And most of all, I felt much more in control of my buoyancy. I may not have been perfectly trimmed (Al can comment) but at least I think I'm good to go for my ocean dives. Now, If I can only find a way to keep my face warm :-). Once again, a huge thanks to Al Wells. It was great diving with you, and I appreciate the loaner gaiters. ____________________________________________ Regards, Arnold Visit my Travel Photo Website: http://www.mag3.biz/travel_photos/home_page.html Absolutely 100% SPAM free!!!! HONEST!!! :-) > >Just got back from Dutch Springs, having passed the dry suit course and enjoyed the Pig Roast! > > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > Once again, a huge thanks to Al Wells. It was great diving with you, and I appreciate the loaner > gaiters. Only had opportunity a couple times to dive with Al, but he has my vote. Good for you. > Only had opportunity a couple times to dive with Al, but he has my vote. Thanks Scott. Of course, on one of those dives we did, there occurred a legendary CF which became a story that will be told and embellished on rec.scuba for years to come ;-) > > Only had opportunity a couple times to dive with Al, but he has my vote. > > Thanks Scott. Of course, on one of those dives we did, there occurred a > legendary CF which became a story that will be told and embellished on > rec.scuba for years to come ;-) And the names haven't been changed to protect the guilty... >> Only had opportunity a couple times to dive with Al, but he has my vote. > > Thanks Scott. Of course, on one of those dives we did, there occurred a > legendary CF which became a story that will be told and embellished on > rec.scuba for years to come ;-) :-) Signature"I wasn't going to get into any of this until later, but you asked a reasonable question. The problem for me in answering is that I'm theorizing with more intuited logic than facts." -JOF Popeye/ www.finalprotectivefire.com >Only had opportunity a couple times to dive with Al, but he has my vote. > >Good for you. He may very well be the reason why you get to sell me one of your famous backplates. ____________________________________________ Regards, Arnold > >Only had opportunity a couple times to dive with Al, but he has my vote. > >Good for you. > He may very well be the reason why you get to sell me one of your famous backplates. If you are going to get a stainless plate, the sooner the better, stainless is going to go up another 18 to 24%. Fortunately we just got another run started just in under the wire. >> On Sat, 14 Jul 2007 12:19:31 -0700, "Scott" <pugetsounddiver@gmail.com> >wrote: [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >is going to go up another 18 to 24%. Fortunately we just got another run >started just in under the wire. Oh, I'm not anywhere near that decision yet. I'll have to deal with whatever prices are in effect at the time. Perhaps in another year or so when my "elders" give me permission to start walking down that "tech" road. ;-) ____________________________________________ Regards, Arnold > >If you are going to get a stainless plate, the sooner the better, stainless > >is going to go up another 18 to 24%. Fortunately we just got another run [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > so when my "elders" give me permission to start walking down that > "tech" road. ;-) This has nothing to do with "tech" diving. If you want to dive a backplate based rig, just do it. I don't do any "tech" diving any more, and I still use my backplates - yes, that is plural* - for all of my diving. * I have one set up for drysuit, and another set up for wetsuit. The difference is primarily in the harness length. SignatureArt Greenberg artg at eclipse dot net >> Oh, I'm not anywhere near that decision yet. I'll have to deal with >> whatever prices are in effect at the time. Perhaps in another year or >> so when my "elders" give me permission to start walking down that >> "tech" road. ;-) > >This has nothing to do with "tech" diving. Oh I knew that. My point being that my next "major" equipment investment (ie. new BC's new regs etc.) - that is, the one after my "initial" investment will most likely be after I have enough experience to: 1) Decide what advanced diving (tech or whatever) I might want to do if any; 2) Determine what equipment I should get to facilitate that type of diving. Right now, I'm not sure what benefit having a backplate setup has over the "jacket" style. I'm hoping that folks like you and Al etc. will be teaching me these things so that I'll be well prepared to make these decisions. Al has graciously volunteered to let me try one of his backplate setups rigged for a single tank to show me how much better it helps with trim etc. I'm very much looking forward to that. I know what kind of back inflated BC my LDS would like to sell me (the OMS series) but apparently, that's for the kind of NJ ocean diving they do. Not sure if I will continue that kind of diving. But at least it provides opportunities do dive with different people and learn why they use their particular gear setups. ____________________________________________ Regards, Arnold > >> Oh, I'm not anywhere near that decision yet. I'll have to deal with > >> whatever prices are in effect at the time. Perhaps in another year or [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > 1) Decide what advanced diving (tech or whatever) I might want to do if any; > 2) Determine what equipment I should get to facilitate that type of diving. > Right now, I'm not sure what benefit having a backplate setup has over the "jacket" > style. I'm hoping that folks like you and Al etc. will be teaching me these things so that [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > it provides opportunities do dive with different people and learn why they use their > particular gear setups. Backplate and wing has nothing to do with "advanced" or other diving. It is a system by which you couple your gas supply to your body, redistribute the weight, etc. Even a novice diver can get out of the usual poodle jackets into a plate and wing and immediately recognize the advantages. > I know what kind of back inflated BC my LDS would like to sell me > (the OMS series) but apparently, that's for the kind of NJ ocean > diving they do. No, it is not. Its just what they sell. I'm not familiar with the current OMS offerings, so I have no idea if they are worth considering. But it looks like today there are many more choices than there were when I put my system together. > Not sure if I will continue that kind of diving. Backplate based systems are dirt simple. IMO a single piece of webbing threaded through the backplate with a stainless steel buckle and a crotch strap is suitable for all kinds of diving. You change the aircell for singles vs. doubles, and for dry suit vs. wet suit (since the ballast requirements are different). Doubles bolt onto the backplate directly. You might need an adaptor for a single tank (and I suggest it, even if the backplate and aircell purport to eliminate it - its a stability issue IMO). > But at least it provides opportunities do dive with different people > and learn why they use their particular gear setups. Most people just use the first thing they tried - because its what the shop they learned form sold them. You won't find a lot of objectivity about dive gear for that reason. I'm probably not able to be very objective about this myself. After diving a jacket BC for a few years, and modifying it so it would sort of work, I "discovered" backplate based systems. And I never looked back. SignatureArt Greenberg artg at eclipse dot net >>> Oh, I'm not anywhere near that decision yet. I'll have to deal with >>> whatever prices are in effect at the time. Perhaps in another year or [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > Arnold Don't waste your money on a BC just get a backplate and wing, works fine in any situation, from open water to tech/cave diving. Plates are generally in two weights ~ 1 lb (Al) or 6 lb (SS), if yyou only want to buy one go with the aluminum, so you won't be over weighted in a 3mm . Anyway the point is always have enough ditchable weight. DiveRite makes a nice product called a Transplate you might want to look at, and currently <http://www.diveriteexpress.com/bcs/transplatesale.shtml> is having a sale. John mag3 <zmpmag3-plongee@yahoo.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: : I kept the same amount of weights as last week (18lbs) and no ankle weights. Not even on the neck of the tank? Mind you, since you can take ten pounds in your trim pockets, it's probably not necessary. Dan Bracuk Never use a big word when a diminutive one will do. >mag3 <zmpmag3-plongee@yahoo.com> pounded away at his keyboard >resulting in: [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Not even on the neck of the tank? Mind you, since you can take ten >pounds in your trim pockets, it's probably not necessary. Nope. Twern't necessary. The gaiters did all the "leg work." ;-) I took 2lbs in each of the trim pockets and 7 in each integrated pocket. The distribution is slightly different than when I'm wet because of the leg thing. Mind you this is fresh water. I may have to add 1-2lbs on each side for salt next week, everything else being equal. That, and I'll also have my 30CF Pony mounted as a RAS (required on the NJ boat dives either that, or doubles). ____________________________________________ Regards, Arnold > Mind you this is fresh water. I may have to add 1-2lbs on each side > for salt next week, everything else being equal. The difference is about 3% of your TOTAL weight. E.g., if you and gear weigh 200 pounds, add 6 pounds. > That, and I'll also have my 30CF Pony mounted as a RAS (required on > the NJ boat dives either that, or doubles). Mounted? SignatureArt Greenberg artg at eclipse dot net >> Mind you this is fresh water. I may have to add 1-2lbs on each side >> for salt next week, everything else being equal. > >The difference is about 3% of your TOTAL weight. E.g., if you and gear >weigh 200 pounds, add 6 pounds. That might be just about right. We'll see after I do the buoyancy check on the surface. >> That, and I'll also have my 30CF Pony mounted as a RAS (required on >> the NJ boat dives either that, or doubles). > >Mounted? I have a "bottle buddy" bracket on the pony, attached to it with c-clamps. The other piece of the bracket is attached (looped through) to the main band of the BC strap that locks in the main tank. The two pieces thread together and then "snap lock" with a spring loaded pin. It actually works well ( I used it on the Gypsy Blood for my wreck diver/deep diver certs last year). ____________________________________________ Regards, Arnold > It worked, and worked well! I had no issues with kicking, nor did my legs come up at all. And > most of all, I felt much more in control of my buoyancy. I may not have been perfectly trimmed > (Al can comment) but at least I think I'm good to go for my ocean dives. Now, If I can only find > a way to keep my face warm :-). You appeared to be in control and able to be where you wanted, so I would leave the gear alone for a few dives to see if there's a position you want but can't get through rolling around a bit to get the suit and BC gas where it needs to be. The little bit of gas in the suit can be moved around to help you trim out, and the BC should be used for buoyancy control. You really don't want too much gas in the suit. To keep your face warm, I recommend diving in warmer water. I don't know what the water temperature was because My BT doesn't do that very well, but I don't believe the 59 degrees that your computer said - the water was seriously cold. > Once again, a huge thanks to Al Wells. It was great diving with you, and I appreciate the loaner > gaiters. It was a pleasure to dive with you. I had a great time and look forward to doing it again. Enjoy your ocean dive next week. al >You appeared to be in control and able to be where you wanted, so I >would leave the gear alone for a few dives to see if there's a position >you want but can't get through rolling around a bit to get the suit and >BC gas where it needs to be. The little bit of gas in the suit can be >moved around to help you trim out, and the BC should be used for >buoyancy control. You really don't want too much gas in the suit. Agreed. Except for some addl. weight for salt, I'll leave things where they are. >To keep your face warm, I recommend diving in warmer water. I don't know >what the water temperature was because My BT doesn't do that very well, >but I don't believe the 59 degrees that your computer said - the water >was seriously cold. Yes, it was. I'll have to read the manual as to why the computer gave that temp. >> Once again, a huge thanks to Al Wells. It was great diving with you, and I appreciate the loaner >> gaiters. > >It was a pleasure to dive with you. I had a great time and look forward >to doing it again. Enjoy your ocean dive next week. Thanks again. ____________________________________________ Regards, Arnold >>To keep your face warm, I recommend diving in warmer water. I don't know >>what the water temperature was because My BT doesn't do that very well, >>but I don't believe the 59 degrees that your computer said - the water >>was seriously cold. > >Yes, it was. I'll have to read the manual as to why the computer gave that temp. I don't think the manual will tell you. Computers I've seen that record temperature aren't really well designed to do so. There's too much thermal inertia. By the time it starts noticing the cold, you're already moving to warmer water. Do a cold early-season dive and this effect is smaller. It starts out colder and ascending doesn't warm things as much. I got a Sesnus so that I could get some more realistic readings. It, too, has lag, but it's not as bad. FWIW, Dutch Springs at 60' seems have a repeatable temperature indication of 11C in the summer. Early season (like in April), the temperature was 7C. SignatureRon (user ron in domain spamblocked.com) >>>To keep your face warm, I recommend diving in warmer water. I don't know >>>what the water temperature was because My BT doesn't do that very well, [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >11C in the summer. Early season (like in April), the temperature >was 7C. Arrrrghhh <opens Windows Calculator>..... Let's see.... (1.8 * 7°C) + 32 = 44.6°F, ohhh OK. :-)))) Sorry, a little hard at 4am. This past April we got reports of 41-42°F initially (now you calculate!!!) ;-) Yeah, I suspect the temp sensor is not all that accurate either. Sucks because that's one of the parms recorded for the "download." The least they could do is make it somewhat accurate. Is that "Sensus" instrument just for temp or a full dive computer? If just for temp, I may get one myself. ____________________________________________ Regards, Arnold >Sorry, a little hard at 4am. This past April we got reports of 41-42°F initially (now you calculate!!!) ;-) 42F would be 6C, within a degree of what I saw. >Yeah, I suspect the temp sensor is not all that accurate either. Sucks because that's one of the parms >recorded for the "download." The least they could do is make it somewhat accurate. Well, wrong temperature readings won't get you bent, so I can understand them placing their priorities elsewhere. It's still annoying, though. >Is that "Sensus" instrument just for temp or a full dive computer? If just for temp, I may get one myself. Neither. It's essentially a featureless black box that does the recording that your dive computer would do (depth, time, temperature). It's especially handy if your dive computer doesn't have PC download capability. If you go to http://reefnet.ca/ you can download Sensus Manager, the program that processes and displays the data. It comes with sample dives so that you can see what a captured dive would show. A couple of pieces of advice, though: Their sample dives don't show the thermal lag that the real dives do. Also, if you get the unit, don't install Sensus Manager on a network drive. Everything will work fine except that the download from the black box to the computer will consistently fail. SignatureRon (user ron in domain spamblocked.com) > >Sorry, a little hard at 4am. This past April we got reports of 41-42°F initially (now you calculate!!!) ;-) > > 42F would be 6C, within a degree of what I saw. This time of year, the lowest temp at Dutch should be around 48F. > >Yeah, I suspect the temp sensor is not all that accurate either. Sucks because that's one of the parms > >recorded for the "download." The least they could do is make it somewhat accurate. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > Everything will work fine except that the download from the black > box to the computer will consistently fail. Wife and I have these - neat stuff. And no problems with network drives. I'm using a Linux box as my file server, Samba file sharing. The Sensus Ultra is much cheaper than a dive computer, and now we are "dive computer independent" when it comes to recording profiles. The thermal lag is a bit less than our Uwatec Pro Nitrox computers. Its easy to see it, too. Just remember what depth that thermocline was at, and measure the time from crossing the thermocline to the time the temperature reading is stable. Seems to be around 3-4 minutes for the units I have. SignatureArt Greenberg artg at eclipse dot net >The Sensus Ultra is much cheaper than a dive computer, and now we are >"dive computer independent" when it comes to recording profiles. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >temperature reading is stable. Seems to be around 3-4 minutes for the >units I have. Seems to be a little slower for mine. Here's some readings from a recent dive. I reached 60' at 1:30 into the dive, with water temperature at the surface showing 25C. 1:30 18 2:30 16 3:30 14.5 4:30 13.5 5:30 13 6:30 12 7:30 12 This is still way better than what gets reported by my Suunto Cobra, which told me this dive's minimum temperature was 19C. The final minimum temperature reported by the Sensus was 10.8C. To get a really valid test, I'd need to descend and just sit in one place. Otherwise, it's possible that what's being seen is the effects of swimming into slightly colder water than the inital descent point's. On a different dive, I did hang in one spot on the platforms at 25' as my buddy practiced buoyancy skills. This was after ascent from a temperature of 13.5C. Times are from the start of the platform hang. 0:00 15 1:00 16 2:00 17 3:00 18 4:00 18 5:00 18.5 6:00 18.5 7:00 19 SignatureRon (user ron in domain spamblocked.com) |
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