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Scuba Forum / General / May 2007OW cert = 5 confined + 4 open
In looking over the PADI reqs for OW cert, I noticed that it specifies 5 confined + 4 open dives. Our youth group has completed the 5 pool dive sessions, but will only have a scheduled day in the summer for the OW dive portion.... Do you really need 4 separate dives in that single day, or is it more of the skills & knowledge demonstrated ? How do they accomplish this same level of proficiency at these dive resorts ? revenue vs safety... different topic. I guess you can pretty much do what you want with a "dive session", vs have the PADI reqs stipulate a number of "hours" in the water, like when I was going after my pilot license..... 40 hrs of flight training > In looking over the PADI reqs for OW cert, > I noticed that it specifies 5 confined + 4 open dives. As per ANSI Z86.3 (& successor). > Our youth group has completed the 5 pool dive sessions, > but will only have a scheduled day in the summer > for the OW dive portion... Only a single day in which to do 4 checkout dives? > Do you really need 4 separate dives in that single day, > or is it more of the skills & knowledge demonstrated ? The 4 are intended to be used for skill demonstrations, which should include gear set-up & teardown, which makes multiple days useful. > How do they accomplish this same level of proficiency > at these dive resorts ? Generally, they do the 4 checkout dives over 2 days. > revenue vs safety... different topic. Indeed, for 4 'bouncy' novice dives in a single day, and probably an abbreviated day at that... > I guess you can pretty much do what you want with a "dive session", > vs have the PADI reqs stipulate a number of "hours" in the water, There used to be minimum standards for each checkout dive...like a minimum of 20 minutes, depth of 20 & 60 ft min/max, etc. > like when I was going after my pilot license..... 40 hrs of flight training -hh > There used to be minimum standards for each checkout dive...like a > minimum of 20 minutes, depth of 20 & 60 ft min/max, etc. I thought I remembered SSI limiting the number of checkout dives to 2 per day. Apparently they now allow three, so the full 4 dives required for certification still need to be done over at least 2 days. Thankfully PADI hasn't yet completely corrupted the other (superior) agencies. See #6 on page 18: http://www.ssiusa.com/pdf/2007_SSI_TrainStd.pdf > In looking over the PADI reqs for OW cert, > I noticed that it specifies 5 confined + 4 open dives. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > like when I was going after my pilot license..... 40 hrs of flight > training Here in S. Florida, they routinely do all 4 dives the same day, two in the morning, two in the afternoon. The first two are primarily focused on demonstration of skills you should have learned in the pool sessions. If you didn't, it's probably too late to learn them at this point. The second two are normally more focused on enjoying diving. Lee > > In looking over the PADI reqs for OW cert, > > I noticed that it specifies 5 confined + 4 open dives. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Lee The pool time was Sunday mornings - from 9 to 12 - on 3 different sessions with class time for discussion on different days. So... they probably have had a good level of the basics, and I would guess the same level of attention from the instructor will be used for the OW session... Tougher to get to an OW enjoyable place here in the midwest, as the flowers just started peeking up and making sure the snow is gone. http://www.haighquarry.com/user-temperature.php Guess we'll be looking at a 7mm suit to keep warm... > The pool time was Sunday mornings - from 9 to 12 - on 3 different sessions > with class time for discussion on different days. > So... they probably have had a good level of the basics, > and I would guess the same level of attention from the instructor > will be used for the OW session... Most instructors who are diligent in the classroom and pool, are diligent in open water too, but the purpose of the open water dives, in my experience, is a bit different. It's more to see them demonstrate their ability individually while still under some supervision. It's like a solo flight, the last step before they're certified as competent to dive independent of supervision. > Tougher to get to an OW enjoyable place here in the midwest, as the > flowers just started peeking up and making sure the snow is > gone. http://www.haighquarry.com/user-temperature.php . Guess we'll be > looking at a 7mm suit to keep warm... You should be looking at airline prices for round trip flights to S. Florida instead. Lee >> The pool time was Sunday mornings - from 9 to 12 - on 3 different sessions >> with class time for discussion on different days. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > >Lee I certified SSI in 98. 2 open water dives in the AM, then lunch and a debrief in the afternoon Second day PM debrief also included drinking the beer purchased by the students for "bone head " infractions like putting the cap back on a used tank or leaving gear on a standing tank and walking away without laying it down.The instructor also offered to lets us come back the next Saturday for two more, if we wanted and would pay for the air. > PM debrief also included drinking the beer purchased by the students for > "bone head " > infractions like putting the cap back on a used tank . . . Nothing bone head about that. They're called dust caps because they were designed to keep dust, etc. out of the valves. Some bone head dive operator, too lazy to put a gauge on tanks to see if they are full or empty came up with the "on is full, of is empty" idea. >> PM debrief also included drinking the beer purchased by the students for >> "bone head " [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > operator, too lazy to put a gauge on tanks to see if they are full or > empty came up with the "on is full, of is empty" idea. Tape around the valve means it is full no tape means it is empty. A dust cover is on it suggests to me the tank is empty because as you say people are trying to keep the dust out knowing there is no tape "dechucka" <dechucka@vomithotmail.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: :Tape around the valve means it is full no tape means it is empty. A dust :cover is on it suggests to me the tank is empty because as you say people :are trying to keep the dust out knowing there is no tape On most, if not all liveaboards I have been on, we don't use tape. We use the dust cap as a signal. Off means empty, on means full. Dan Bracuk If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure. In rec.scuba, on Tue 08 May 2007 11:07:51p, Dan Bracuk <NOTbracuk@pathcom.com> sexually stimulated me so much that I had to remove a little boy's dick from my mouth when he said: > On most, if not all liveaboards I have been on, we don't use tape. We > use the dust cap as a signal. Off means empty, on means full. Oh, so it's like when I'm wearing a condom while f.cking little boys - off means I'm empty, on means I still have some more for their tight little a.ses. NOW I understand it! Oh Dan, you're such a stud! I want to have your love child! I hope Douggie won't be -too- jealous. > "dechucka" <dechucka@vomithotmail.com> pounded away at his keyboard > resulting in: [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > On most, if not all liveaboards I have been on, we don't use tape. We > use the dust cap as a signal. Off means empty, on means full. which as LB said seems a bit illogical > > :Tape around the valve means it is full no tape means it is empty. A dust > > :cover is on it suggests to me the tank is empty because as you say people [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > which as LB said seems a bit illogical It's logical on a liveaboard where the crew has to keep 16-18 (or as many as 32 on a Nekton) tanks filled for the next dive, especially on boats like Nektons where the divers dive whenever they want. A colorful dust cap is an quick and easy sign to recognize from a distance that a tank doesn't need filling. A better system for liveaboards is taking off the reg when the tank is empty, and replacing the reg when the tank is full. Some boats don't like to put the regs on the tanks, however. I never could figure out why, since plenty of day-boat operators do that for their customers. >> > :Tape around the valve means it is full no tape means it is empty. A >> > dust [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > like to put the regs on the tanks, however. I never could figure out > why, since plenty of day-boat operators do that for their customers. Fair enough but on boats I have dived the tape seems to do the trick and seems to be the norm. However as the OP was talking about being fined on an OW course I find it amazingly illogical system with the dust caps > Fair enough but on boats I have dived the tape seems to do the trick and > seems to be the norm. However as the OP was talking about being fined on an > OW course I find it amazingly illogical system with the dust caps- I don't. You have to keep the students in line somehow or they'll walk all over you. Rules are rules, even if they're arbitrary. In this case they're somewhat defensible: the shop didn't want to bother to have to check all the capped tanks after the class to see which ones were used and which needed fills, so they asked the students' participation just as they would ask the students not to use their cellphones in class or pee in the pool. I have no problom with fining a student for letting his cellphone ring in class, nor do I have a problem with fining them for putting the cap back on an empty. Now is it logical to ask the students not to pee in the pool when, after all, pee is sterile and harmless? > > Fair enough but on boats I have dived the tape seems to do the trick and > > seems to be the norm. However as the OP was talking about being fined on an [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Now is it logical to ask the students not to pee in the pool when, > after all, pee is sterile and harmless? So you won't mind if I save myself a trip to the john and pee in your half empty beer mug? I still tell little kids who are getting into our pool for the first time that the water around them will turn purple if they pee in it. I don't know if any have ever called my bluff. JF > I still tell little kids who are getting into our pool for the first > time that the water around them will turn purple if they pee in it. I > don't know if any have ever called my bluff. It's bastards like you that have given me a fear of peeing in pools since I was a little kid. Even though I'm pretty sure now that the purple dye is an urban legend, I always let out a test squirt before I let her rip just in case. The only pool I don't pee in is my own. > > I still tell little kids who are getting into our pool for the first > > time that the water around them will turn purple if they pee in it. I [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > purple dye is an urban legend, I always let out a test squirt before I > let her rip just in case. The only pool I don't pee in is my own. Someday the pool police are gonna get you, and you'll be sentenced to wearing nothing but white Speedoes for the rest of yer life. JF > I don't. You have to keep the students in line somehow or they'll > walk all over you. Rules are rules, even if they're arbitrary. In [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > a student for letting his cellphone ring in class, nor do I have a > problem with fining them for putting the cap back on an empty. I'm more inclined to go with the idea of putting a piece of masking tape across the valve face than a dust cap... As long as they aren't tempted to reuse the masking tape, a tank with tape on it means that no one has used it yet... FillExpress puts a piece of tape with the O2 percentage on it on the neck of the tank... As long as you remember to remove it when you put the regulator on, it works ok too... Grumman-581 <grumman581@DIE-SPAMMER-SCUM-gmail.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: :I'm more inclined to go with the idea of putting a piece of masking tape :across the valve face than a dust cap... As long as they aren't tempted :to reuse the masking tape, a tank with tape on it means that no one has :used it yet... FillExpress puts a piece of tape with the O2 percentage :on it on the neck of the tank... As long as you remember to remove it :when you put the regulator on, it works ok too... Dust caps generate less litter. Dan Bracuk If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure. > Grumman-581 <grumman581@DIE-SPAMMER-SCUM-gmail.com> pounded away at > his keyboard resulting in: [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Dust caps generate less litter. and that is definite fine to drop the masking tape. Still is now among my group of divers. by the way dust caps are a pain in the arse > Dust caps generate less litter. Perhaps, but they're just one more dangling thing on your tank that you don't really need... If you are so concerned with litter, remove it from the valve and place it across the top of the tank... It'll probably survive for the length of the dive... The fill guy can throw it away when he's refilling the tank and putting a new piece of tape on the filled tank... For my on tanks, I'll usually put a piece of masking tape on it with the pressure of the tank... I might use the remaining air for another dive or I might use it for adding air to tires with a regulator that I have rigged up for air tools... Once it gets down to 100 psi or so, it gets classified as "empty", marked that way, and I'll fill it up next time I get around to it... >> Fair enough but on boats I have dived the tape seems to do the trick and >> seems to be the norm. However as the OP was talking about being fined on [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > a student for letting his cellphone ring in class, nor do I have a > problem with fining them for putting the cap back on an empty. I have no problem with fining the students after all I kept my instructer drunk for a week BUT IMHO the fines need to be for logical reasons and I don't think the dustcap thing is logical. However if those are the rules they should be stuck to. > Now is it logical to ask the students not to pee in the pool when, > after all, pee is sterile and harmless? "dechucka" <dechucka@vomithotmail.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: :which as LB said seems a bit illogical Dust is not of a concern on liveaboards. Dan Bracuk If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure. >> In looking over the PADI reqs for OW cert, >> I noticed that it specifies 5 confined + 4 open dives. > Here in S. Florida, they routinely do all 4 dives the same day, two in the > morning, two in the afternoon. The first two are primarily focused on > demonstration of skills you should have learned in the pool sessions. If > you didn't, it's probably too late to learn them at this point. The > second two are normally more focused on enjoying diving. If they routinely do all 4 open water certification dives on the same day and are PADI, they are routinely violating standards. The maximum number of OW certification dives that can be completed for credit during a day (dawn to dusk) is three. Four dives can be completed in 24 hours, but there must be a break overnight. For example, one could do two dives in the afternoon followed by two dives the next morning. > If they routinely do all 4 open water certification dives on the same day > and are PADI, they are routinely violating standards. Imagine that, PADI instructors violating standards for money. Who would have thought. > > If they routinely do all 4 open water certification dives on the same day > > > and are PADI, they are routinely violating standards. > > Imagine that, PADI instructors violating standards for money. Who would > have thought. You're not painting everyone with that same brush, are you Lee? Maybe it's just the way I heard your written word... sounded sarcastic to me. I know I'm naive, but for the record, the snideness that is so prevalent regarding PADI makes it even more difficult for new, naive, idealistic instructors to do a good job. Seems to me that the person you responded to simply posted a fact, nothing more. kari >>>> If they routinely do all 4 open water certification dives on the same >>>> day >>> and are PADI, they are routinely violating standards. >> Imagine that, PADI instructors violating standards for money. Who would >> have thought. > You're not painting everyone with that same brush, are you Lee? Nope. > Maybe it's just the way I heard your written word... sounded sarcastic to > me. It was supposed to. > I know I'm naive, but for the record, the snideness that is so > prevalent regarding PADI makes it even more difficult for new, naive, > idealistic instructors to do a good job. Seems to me that the person > you responded to simply posted a fact, nothing more. Perhaps knowing how PADI is perceived by many should help a new, naive, idealistic instructor do a better job. Not all PADI shops or instructors are more interested in the almighty dollar than in providing good trianing and service, but enough of them are for PADI to have earned the reputation. It's not chance, or sour grapes, it's something the organization brought on themselves. It's nice to know that you prefer to be better than that. Don't change. On the other hand, the fact remains that, over the years, lots of PADI shops and instructors in S. Florida have done four checkout dives in one day, enough that I had no clue that there was a rule to the contrary. Quite often, that's all the time their customers have available and it's no surprise to me when the shops, no matter what the rules say, meet that demand. Note that I didn't suggest that doing all the dives in one day was a problem. It seems to me that, if you're ready to be certified to dive without supervision, that it matters little whether you do so in one day or two, or four. Four dives, is four dives. Apparently, PADI does think it's a problem, but no so much of a problem that they'll actually do something about it. That's no surprise to me either. Lee |
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