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Scuba Forum / General / May 2007Sausage as dive flag?
Hey I'm thinking of getting a safety sausage(below). I'm wondering if there are any issues with using it as a dive flag as well. It has diver below written in huge letters and has 30lb of lift.... The only thing I'm thinking could be a concern is people mistaking it for a sign of distress but if there is no flailing diver attached to it and has "Diver Below" writ large on it I'm thinking that won't be too bad. Whatcha think? Dive Safety/Signal Tube - 6 ft Sure-Sight Multi-Function Safety http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270112139049&sspagename=ADME:L :RTQ:CA:1 > Hey I'm thinking of getting a safety sausage(below). I'm wondering if > there are any issues with using it as a dive flag as well. It has [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Dive Safety/Signal Tube - 6 ft Sure-Sight Multi-Function Safety > http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270112139049&sspagename=ADME:L :RTQ:CA:1 It does not comply with Florida law. Lee >>Hey I'm thinking of getting a safety sausage(below). I'm wondering if >>there are any issues with using it as a dive flag as well. It has [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Lee Nor Virginia law. >>>Hey I'm thinking of getting a safety sausage(below). I'm wondering if >>>there are any issues with using it as a dive flag as well. It has [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >> >Nor Virginia law. Nor Tejas  Signaturedillon The pen may be mightier than the sword, but I've never seen a .sig beat a Sig. >> It does not comply with Florida law. >> >> Lee >> > Nor Virginia law. You've got some weird laws! In the UK, Europe, and many other places I've dived around the world (Australia, Philippines, Egypt etc) , all divers carry at least one DSMB or 'safety sausage'. I carry three, two red and a yellow emergency one. All dive boat skippers in the UK expect a diver to send up a red DSMB when they either start their ascent or reach a pre-determined decompression stop, that way the skipper knows your that OK, have started your ascent, where you are in relation to the current and other divers. Even if you start your accent on the shot line we usually release at a sensible depth, such as 21 metres or a shallower deco stop and deploy a DSMB The spare red (and second reel) is used if the first becomes tangled and is jettisoned, the yellow is only used in emergency and often means 'need more gas, send down a cylinder (and possibly a support diver). One big difference between the UK and Us diving is that our dive boats don't tie up and force the diver to fin back to the boat, which given our tides, is often impossible. The dive boat stays 'live' and picks up the diver. A great benefit if you're doing deep stuff with many cylinders. Some divers also carry rolled up yellow or red flags attached to their cylinders as an additional safety item so that the skipper can see you above the waves when there's a large swell. Its usually made from a two or three 1 mere long plastic poles with shot cord between them, like tent poles, which push together into a 2 or 3 metre flag pole with an A flag unfurled. > >> > >> It does not comply with Florida law. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > You've got some weird laws! Not really - the laws require what flag must be flown to indicate that divers are in the water. <snip> So what flag is the boat flying while conducting dive operations? And, when shore diving, do you tow a flag to indicate divers are in the water, presumably similar in design to the one a boat flies to indicate there are divers in the water? Dennis >> >> >> >> It does not comply with Florida law. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Dennis Dennis, The boat would fly the A (Alpha) flag, which is the ICS, International Code Of Signals flag denoting 'Divers in the Water'. The Red flag with diagonal white stripe is primarily used in the US and other US led countries as an unofficial 'divers down' flag, but it is little used in the UK, Europe, Africa or Asia, and both it and the A flag are to be found in the Caribbean, Australia and Far East, including Micronesia and Oceania. Outside of the US (and I believe also within the US) non-diving skippers don't take much notice of red / stripe, unless its the Caribbean brand of Lager beer :-) The A flag should only be raised when divers are actually in the water, not whilst in transit to or from the dive site. You can see the A flag at http://www.ukdivers.com/info/flags.asp Tony. >> So what flag is the boat flying while conducting dive operations? >> And, when shore diving, do you tow a flag to indicate divers are in the >> water, presumably similar in design to the one a boat flies to indicate >> there are divers in the water? In Florida, commercial boats fly both the Alpha flag and the red and white diver down flag. Private ones usually fly only the red and white flag. When shore diving, or not in close proximity to the boat you're diving from, you are required to tow a red and white flag. Regulations governing the size of the red and white flag were enacted a while ago requiring a larger flag on boats than is required for divers that tow theirs. All of the local drift boats that I know of require each group, whether buddy team or larger, to tow a red and white flag. For whatever reason, the boats I spearfish from out between the Marquesas and the Dry Tortugas don't. Lee >> Dennis >> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Tony. > >> >> > >> >> It does not comply with Florida law. [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > The boat would fly the A (Alpha) flag, which is the ICS, International > Code Of Signals flag denoting 'Divers in the Water'. Yes indeed. > The Red flag with diagonal white stripe is primarily used in the US and > other US led countries as an unofficial 'divers down' flag, but it is [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > You can see the A flag at http://www.ukdivers.com/info/flags.asp I've seen it. So...a safety sausage with "diver down" could not be used as a substitute for the A flag in the UK? Neither the A flag nor diver down flag can be replaced by a safety sausage with diver down in the US. Guess our laws aren't so strange then? :-) Dennis Dennis, There is no 'law' in the UK as to what divers use as surface marker buoys or flags. The flying of an A flag on the boat does not negate the requirement to deploy surface marker buoys by the divers, as they are for entirely different purposes. The flag on the boat is to notify other boats of the divers in the water; whereas the SMB is primarily there so that the dive boat skipper knows where the individual divers are in relation to his boat, that they are OK and that (except in the case of drift dives where the SMB is used for the entire dive) that the diver has commenced their ascent. The only true convention is that regarding the flying of the A flag on the boat when the divers are actually in the water, not that many of the other idiot boat owners know what it means or comply with safe piloting! As far as divers are concerned, it is just common practice that a Red 'sausage' or lift bag is normally deployed to denote the start of the ascent or during a drift dive. Yellow DSMB's are primarily used as a emergency marker, often meaning 'send down more gas' or whatever was agreed with the skipper and Dive Marshall on the boat before the dive commenced. For some reason (I've yet to find out why) some DSMB's are made with one side red and the other side yellow, in my opinion that's bloody confusing for the skipper! (He's OK, nope needs gas, nope OK ..........) I and many divers paint or use a permanent marker to put our name or initials in large letters on the DSMB so that the skipper knows which divers are under each of the markers. Some also have the words 'Diver Below Do Not Lift" printed by the manufacturer onto the DSMB. Some emergency DSMB's also have a area which can be written on with pencil by the diver to denote what the problem is. All are personal diver choice (as long as it's pre-agreed policy with the skipper & DM). I also used to have a flag attached to a 2m/7ft extendible pole attached by bungee to my cylinders, which I could unfurl and deploy so that the skipper can find us in heavy seas with high waves (higher that the height of me and a DSMB), but it's easier to carry a longer thinner DSMB instead. This flag could be either red or yellow or any other colour (whichever has the highest visibility). These conventions have just grown through practice and the conventions passed down by DM's, instructors and boat skippers so that we have come to a agreed 'standard' but not by any fixed 'Law', although with the plethora of stupid laws coming out of the EU that may change. Regards, Tony > I've seen it. So...a safety sausage with "diver down" could not be used as a > substitute for the A flag in the UK? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Dennis > Dennis, > [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] > > Tony That's pretty much the conventions used here in SoFla, except that it is the law that a boat must fly the red/white dive flag when divers are in the water. Because most of our diving is drift diving, each dive group tows a float with the red/white dive flag, and a sausage or bag becomes some kind of alert (separated diver, diver doing deco, salvage coming up) for the boat driver. One of the main jobs of the boat driver is to watch for traffic and move to shield his divers. Sometimes it gets a bit hairy. There is no requirement here for a boater to have a license, or even any knowledge of boating law/regulations/conventions, and that is a problem. The dive flag is meaningless to most of the boats out there and some will even zoom in just to see what it is. Reef Rescue plans to get together a brochure for boaters to teach proper anchoring around the reefs, most don't understand it's naughty to anchor in the middle of the reef. What's needed is a boating license, it's nuts to think a boater will get the knowledge by osmosis. esg > That's pretty much the conventions used here in SoFla, except that it is > the law that a boat must fly the red/white dive flag when divers are in > the water. The law requires all boats with divers in the water to fly the red and white flag and for the divers to stay within a specified range of the boat. As far as I know, all commercial dive boats fly the Alpha flag as well. I would venture to say that most recreational boat operators don't know what the alpha flag signifies. Military and other government dive boats run shape up to indicate dive operations in progress and even I don't know what they are. I do know that I got chewed out once in the Intracoastal for creating more of a wake near one than they thought appropriate. > Because most of our diving is drift diving, each dive group tows a float > with the red/white dive flag, and a sausage or bag becomes some kind of > alert (separated diver, diver doing deco, salvage coming up) for the boat > driver. One of the main jobs of the boat driver is to watch for traffic > and move to shield his divers. Sometimes it gets a bit hairy. Most of us tow them because it's required by law when more than the specified distance from the boat or when diving from shore. Also, the towed flag may be smaller. The required size for boats was increased a few years ago. If they're being picky, your towable flag will not do if flown from the boat. > There is no requirement here for a boater to have a license, or even any > knowledge of boating law/regulations/conventions, and that is a problem. > The dive flag is meaningless to most of the boats out there and some will > even zoom in just to see what it is. That's not quite true. There are plenty of requirements for knowledge of boating laws and regulations. There's just no requirement for getting the knowledge formally. Further, I think a poll would find that, by far, the majority of boat operators anywhere in the US know what the dive flag looks like and have some idea of what it means. On the other hand, we all know what speed limit signs mean too. > Reef Rescue plans to get together a brochure for boaters to teach proper > anchoring around the reefs, most don't understand it's naughty to anchor > in the middle of the reef. Most don't know how to anchor anywhere. Trying to anchor in sand near the reef is useless if you don't know how to get the anchor to set securely. It simply drags until it hooks on the reef anyway. > What's needed is a boating license, it's nuts to think a boater will get > the knowledge by osmosis. I respectfully disagree. I think you might make a case for requiring all boaters to take some kind of familiarization course, but a license is unnecessary. It's just another vehicle for the government's hunger for tax money. There's already a process for enforcing the laws and even a process that requires those ticketed more than once to take a boating safety course. Like just about everything else, the laws we have are enough, they're just not enforced. These days, everybody with the ability or authority to enforce boating safety laws is part of Homeland Security, or thinks they are, and believe that they have more important work to do . . . like riding around at the taxpayer's expense trying to catch Cubans before they can set foot on dry ground or checking to make sure the toothpaste in my carry on is not in too big a tube, even if it's squeezed down to nearly nothing. Lee >>What's needed is a boating license, it's nuts to think a boater will get >>the knowledge by osmosis. > > I respectfully disagree. Lee, you ignorant slut: I think you might make a case for requiring all > boaters to take some kind of familiarization course, but a license is > unnecessary. It's just another vehicle for the government's hunger for tax [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > foot on dry ground or checking to make sure the toothpaste in my carry on is > not in too big a tube, even if it's squeezed down to nearly nothing. To drive a car, you need to have proof that you were exposed to some basic training. Ditto for a carry permit. Or an airplane. What's different about a boat? Enforcement is not the issue (at least in this argument), the issue is requiring PROOF that "some kind of familiarization course" has been received. Any idiot can jump in a boat with no understanding of what a "no wake zone" is or what a dive flag means. My one near death experience with a boat might not have been avoided by licensure, but I like to think the twelve year old driving the forty-footer might have understood that he wasn't supposed to run over canoes. Or at least stop to check for bodies. >>>What's needed is a boating license, it's nuts to think a boater will get >>>the knowledge by osmosis. >> I respectfully disagree. > Lee, you ignorant slut: Not ignorant. I currently have 3 power boats and a Kayak. Had at least one power boat since I was 6. Been diving since I was 14. Learned a thing or two in the interim. Still a slut, always will be. > To drive a car, you need to have proof that you were exposed to some basic > training. Ditto for a carry permit. Or an airplane. > What's different about a boat? Actually, you don't need proof. You can get in a car and drive it, possibly for your whole life, without ever being stopped and asked to prove anything. The first violation, however, will change that. In boating, it takes two violations. Perhaps that's because boats are so much easier to operate and because there are so few boating fatalities. Otherwise, they're the same. Both certainly should be preceeded by some kind of training. I've already agreed with that. It's the license that I disagree with. I have enough of them. I have a license to hunt, a license to fish, a license to take lobster, a license to drive, a license to drive my ATV (this one issued by the federal government), a license to carry a concealed weapon and probably more licenses that I've forgottin about. They're all just another way to separate me from my money. None of them are a reliable indicator, let alone proof, of competency. It's easy for us to jump on the license bandwagon just because some people are idiots. Idiots don't get better just because they have a license. > Enforcement is not the issue (at least in this argument), the issue is > requiring PROOF that "some kind of familiarization course" > has been received. A government licensing process always involves enforcement. Without it, there's no point in the rule. The very people you wish to address will not comply. > Any idiot can jump in a boat with no understanding of what a "no wake > zone" is or what a dive flag means. My one near death experience with a > boat might not have been avoided by licensure, but I like to think the > twelve year old driving the forty-footer > might have understood that he wasn't supposed to run over canoes. Or at > least stop to check for bodies. Any idiot will still be able to jump in a boat with no understanding. It's unlikely that a 14 year old will be affected even if there is a licensing requirement. Besides, I've never experienced any boating training that taught that a "no wake zone" is an area where you have to go as slow as possible and still make headway in order to protect manatees that are not there, and the seawall of some rich jerk from someplace else that is there. That's not a real good example of why the government should become more involved. I just looked up Florida law and I'm pleased to see it's changed since the last time I looked. It used to say that approaching vessels "should" proceed no faster than . . . " instead of the current wording "must". Notice that the slow speed requirement is the only actual requirement that applies to other vessels and that it does not apply to Law Enforcement or rescue vessels. You only have to make a reasonable effort to stay 300 feet away and even that requirement is immediately followed by rules for coming closer. I also get a kick out of the requirement that no person operate any vessel displaying a diver's down flag unless the vessel has one or more divers in the water. Hell, even the Coast Guard licensed boats don't comply with that one. Lee >What's needed is a boating license, it's nuts to think a boater will get >the knowledge by osmosis. > >esg ***** <Five Stars> >>What's needed is a boating license, it's nuts to think a boater will get >>the knowledge by osmosis. > ***** > <Five Stars> Boooo. What we need is torpedo tubes for dive boats and really big bang sticks for divers. Lee > Dennis, > > There is no 'law' in the UK as to what divers use as surface marker > buoys or flags. Ah. Here there is. If the diver is within the range of the boat, then they don't need an independent marker. Tech divers may use DSMBs as you describe. Its possible that divers who were downcurrent from the boat and ae waiting to be picked up, they might get cited if they were out of the legislated range. Hopefully not. If diving from shore, without the towable dive flag, tjhen you may get fined. > The flying of an A flag on the boat does not negate the requirement to > deploy surface marker buoys by the divers, as they are for entirely > different purposes. Sure, because they're covered by the boat's A flag. > The flag on the boat is to notify other boats of the divers in the > water; whereas the SMB is primarily there so that the dive boat skipper > knows where the individual divers are in relation to his boat, that they > are OK and that (except in the case of drift dives where the SMB is used > for the entire dive) that the diver has commenced their ascent. If not diving from a boat though......I tak it there's no need for them to display anything? > The only true convention is that regarding the flying of the A flag on > the boat when the divers are actually in the water, not that many of the > other idiot boat owners know what it means or comply with safe piloting! Understood. <snip> > I also used to have a flag attached to a 2m/7ft extendible pole attached > by bungee to my cylinders, which I could unfurl and deploy so that the > skipper can find us in heavy seas with high waves (higher that the > height of me and a DSMB), but it's easier to carry a longer thinner DSMB > instead. This flag could be either red or yellow or any other colour > (whichever has the highest visibility). Sounds good. <snip> > >> It does not comply with Florida law. > >> [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] >tent poles, which push together into a 2 or 3 metre flag pole with an A >flag unfurled. There is a big difference between using sausages as locators and communication with the boat during drift dives and using them as "dive flags" with the intent of replacing the international "divers down" flag required to be flown when a boat has divers below. This was what the OP questioned and what the replies were about. > >> > >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > You've got some weird laws! How are the laws weird? http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+29.1-734.1 The original question was using a safety sausage instead of a surface or vessel mounted dive flag. In Virginia, that flag is defined by law, and is consistent with the US recognized dive flag (red background with white diagonal stripe). Some places may require the international "Alpha" flag instead. Some may allow either /or. I don't disagree with divers carrying a sausage or some other type surface signal. I just don't agree that should be used instead of a recognized "diver down" signal. > It does not comply with Florida law. I'm too lazy to look into the law here in Hawaii but having used my safety sausage on an occasion or two, I'd say no. There is a plethora of dive flags you can buy and use. A safety sausage is something you deploy only when necessary. You don't want to mix the two. kula >> Hey I'm thinking of getting a safety sausage(below). I'm wondering if >> there are any issues with using it as a dive flag as well. It has [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > It does not comply with Florida law. but if your a real man who cares > Hey I'm thinking of getting a safety sausage(below). I'm wondering if > there are any issues with using it as a dive flag as well. It has [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Dive Safety/Signal Tube - 6 ft Sure-Sight Multi-Function Safety > http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270112139049&sspagename=ADME:L :RTQ:CA:1 A dive sausage means 'diver directly below', where a dive flag means 'diver in the area'. I can't imagine why a diver would want to confuse these two issues. Signaturejer email reply - I am not a 'ten' > SeanMartinFarr...@gmail.com wrote: > > Hey I'm thinking of getting a safety sausage(below). I'm wondering if [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > 'diver in the area'. I can't imagine why a diver would want to confuse > these two issues. So the flags that a diver is often forced to tow along, by legal mandate I believe, in Florida and Hawaii, just mean "diver in the area"? Then why can't the boat just fly it? > > SeanMartinFarr...@gmail.com wrote: > > > Hey I'm thinking of getting a safety sausage(below). I'm wondering if [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > mandate I believe, in Florida and Hawaii, just mean "diver in the > area"? Then why can't the boat just fly it?- I think that works in some areas. JF >> SeanMartinFarr...@gmail.com wrote: >> > Hey I'm thinking of getting a safety sausage(below). I'm wondering if [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > mandate I believe, in Florida and Hawaii, just mean "diver in the > area"? Then why can't the boat just fly it? In Aus iirc the rules are not to approach within 50m of a diving flag, boat or towed, but it you must approach do so at the lowest speed that the boat is navigatable at keeping a lookout. So if the boat has the flag and you are not within 50ms you are not covered. Having said that I never have a float and flag when diving and plan to come up within 50ms of the boat , preferably the anchor line. If I come up and need to swim to the boat where other boats are around I tend to inflate my sausage ( both if it has been a good dive ) so they can have the best chance of seeing me. Having said all this in my experiance very few boat drivers in Aus know what the Alpha flag means > So the flags that a diver is often forced to tow along, by legal > mandate I believe, in Florida and Hawaii, just mean "diver in the > area"? Then why can't the boat just fly it? It can if you stay relatively close to the boat. Lee >> SeanMartinFarr...@gmail.com wrote: >>> Hey I'm thinking of getting a safety sausage(below). I'm wondering if [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > mandate I believe, in Florida and Hawaii, just mean "diver in the > area"? Then why can't the boat just fly it? They do - a surface vessel holding on station displaying a diver flag is the surface marker for divers in the immediate area, and often you may see more than one SMB with a diver attached just below each one, especially when surface chop obscures their deco bubbles. Diver flags stay at the surface, an SMB can pop up anywhere. Signaturejer email reply - I am not a 'ten' I'm damn glad California doesn't make me tow a dive flag through the kelp. >>> SeanMartinFarr...@gmail.com wrote: >>>> Hey I'm thinking of getting a safety sausage(below). I'm wondering if [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > often you may see more than one SMB with a diver attached just below each one, especially when surface chop obscures their deco > bubbles. Diver flags stay at the surface, an SMB can pop up anywhere. > I'm damn glad California doesn't make me tow a dive flag through the kelp. I'm amazed Laguna Beach doesn't adopt a mandatory flag ordinance to go along with the mandatory snorkle and mandatory buddy. >>I'm damn glad California doesn't make me tow a dive flag through the kelp. > > I'm amazed Laguna Beach doesn't adopt a mandatory flag ordinance to go > along with the mandatory snorkle and mandatory buddy. Next thing you know you they will be making water mandatory. > Hey I'm thinking of getting a safety sausage(below). I'm wondering if > there are any issues with using it as a dive flag as well. It has [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Dive Safety/Signal Tube - 6 ft Sure-Sight Multi-Function Safety > http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270112139049&sspagename=ADME:L :RTQ:CA:1 When I've used the safety sausage it meant I'm waiting to be picked up by a boat. It's a message. A flag means there is a diver below. A sign for boats to stay away. They have two different meanings. Adam |
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