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Scuba Forum / General / April 2007

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Signs of Intelligence?

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Lee Bell - 21 Apr 2007 15:31 GMT
The following commentary was posted by Fred Thompson (who I really hope to
be able to vote for in 2008).

Signs of Intelligence?

One of the things that's got to be going through a lot of peoples' minds now
is how one man with two handguns, that he had to reload time and time again,
could go from classroom to classroom on the Virginia Tech campus without
being stopped. Much of the answer can be found in policies put in place by
the university itself.

Virginia, like 39 other states, allows citizens with training and legal
permits to carry concealed weapons. That means that Virginians regularly sit
in movie theaters and eat in restaurants among armed citizens. They walk,
joke and rub shoulders everyday with people who responsibly carry
firearms -- and are far safer than they would be in San Francisco, Oakland,
Detroit, Chicago, New York City, or Washington, D.C., where such permits are
difficult or impossible to obtain.

The statistics are clear. Communities that recognize and grant Second
Amendment rights to responsible adults have a significantly lower incidence
of violent crime than those that do not. More to the point, incarcerated
criminals tell criminologists that they consider local gun laws when they
decide what sort of crime they will commit, and where they will do so.

Still, there are a lot of people who are just offended by the notion that
people can carry guns around. They view everybody, or at least many of us,
as potential murderers prevented only by the lack of a convenient weapon.
Virginia Tech administrators overrode Virginia state law and threatened to
expel or fire anybody who brings a weapon onto campus.

In recent years, however, armed Americans -- not on-duty police officers --  
have successfully prevented a number of attempted mass murders. Evidence
from Israel, where many teachers have weapons and have stopped serious
terror attacks, has been documented. Supporting, though contrary, evidence
from Great Britain, where strict gun controls have led to violent crime
rates far higher than ours, is also common knowledge.

So Virginians asked their legislators to change the university's "concealed
carry" policy to exempt people 21 years of age or older who have passed
background checks and taken training classes. The university, however,
lobbied against that bill, and a top administrator subsequently praised the
legislature for blocking the measure.

The logic behind this attitude baffles me, but I suspect it has to do with a
basic difference in worldviews. Some people think that power should exist
only at the top, and everybody else should rely on "the authorities" for
protection.

Despite such attitudes, average Americans have always made up the front line
against crime. Through programs like Neighborhood Watch and Amber Alert, we
are stopping and catching criminals daily. Normal people tackled "shoe
bomber" Richard Reid as he was trying to blow up an airliner. It was a truck
driver who found the D.C. snipers. Statistics from the Centers for Disease
Control and Prevention show that civilians use firearms to prevent at least
a half million crimes annually.

When people capable of performing acts of heroism are discouraged or denied
the opportunity, our society is all the poorer. And from the selfless
examples of the passengers on Flight 93 on 9/11 to Virginia Tech professor
Liviu Librescu, a Holocaust survivor who sacrificed himself to save his
students earlier this week, we know what extraordinary acts of heroism
ordinary citizens are capable of.

Many other universities have been swayed by an anti-gun, anti-self defense
ideology. I respect their right to hold those views, but I challenge their
decision to deny Americans the right to protect themselves on their
campuses -- and then proudly advertise that fact to any and all.

Whenever I've seen one of those "Gun-free Zone" signs, especially outside of
a school filled with our youngest and most vulnerable citizens, I've always
wondered exactly who these signs are directed at. Obviously, they don't mean
much to the sort of man who murdered 32 people just a few days ago.

posted by Fred Dalton Thompson on 4/19/2007 6:31:28 PM

________________________________
It is useless for sheep to pass resolutions in favor of
vegetarianism while wolves remain of a different opinion.
WILLIAM RALPH INGE, D. D. 1860-1954
Scott - 21 Apr 2007 16:05 GMT
Common sense is Kryptonite to politicians.

> The following commentary was posted by Fred Thompson (who I really hope to
> be able to vote for in 2008).
[quoted text clipped - 76 lines]
> vegetarianism while wolves remain of a different opinion.
> WILLIAM RALPH INGE, D. D. 1860-1954
Kula - 25 Apr 2007 04:51 GMT
> The following commentary was posted by Fred Thompson (who I really hope to
> be able to vote for in 2008).

Nope.  The religious right has declared him persona non grata.

kula
Lee Bell - 25 Apr 2007 04:57 GMT
>> The following commentary was posted by Fred Thompson (who I really hope
>> to be able to vote for in 2008).

> Nope.  The religious right has declared him persona non grata.

Just what we need.  What'd he do to annoy them?

The right had better come up with somebody quick.  It looks to me like all
the current choices are bad ones.  I'm afraid Hillary is the most viable
candidate around, and I get the shivers just thinking about her as
President.  One Clinton was enough.

Lee
Kula - 25 Apr 2007 05:13 GMT
>>> The following commentary was posted by Fred Thompson (who I really hope
>>> to be able to vote for in 2008).
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Lee
http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/03/29/dobson.thompson/
Lee Bell - 25 Apr 2007 08:34 GMT
> Nope.  The religious right has declared him persona non grata.
> http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/03/29/dobson.thompson/

I don't read the article to indicate quite that harsh a position.  Thompson
was baptized into the Church of Christ.  That, alone, may not win him many
votes, but it shouldn't loose him all that many either.  The fact that he's
not a rabid Christian strikes me as more of a positive than a negative.
We've had enough accusations of forcing Christianity on the world and enough
legislation with its foundations in hard core religious morality.  Logic and
rational thought is what we need.

All else being equal, I'd bet the Christian right would come around if
Thompson became the Republican candidate.  They know better than to
antagonize the candidate that is most likely not to reject their agenda off
hand and who at least professes to hold similar religious views, even if not
to an extreme degree.

Personally, I think we'd have a hard time getting any very strongly
religious person elected.  Aside from party lines, which not everyone
follows anyway, anyone who would be expected to strongly promote any
religious preference, is going to find a lot of people who believe
differently, turned against him.

We'll see how it all plays out, but if Hillary is elected, I may give up
being a Florida resident and become an island boy myself.  The closest of
the Bahamas is only 50 miles from where I currently live.

Lee
Grumman-581 - 25 Apr 2007 08:41 GMT
> We'll see how it all plays out, but if Hillary is elected, I may give up
> being a Florida resident and become an island boy myself.  The closest of
> the Bahamas is only 50 miles from where I currently live.

I'm thinking the Cayman islands might be desirable... What with not
having an income tax and such, it might be a good place to retire
to... The fact that it's within the range of my plane as long as I
refuel in Key West before crossing Cuba is a plus...
Lee Bell - 25 Apr 2007 13:04 GMT
>> We'll see how it all plays out, but if Hillary is elected, I may give up
>> being a Florida resident and become an island boy myself.  The closest of
>> the Bahamas is only 50 miles from where I currently live.

> I'm thinking the Cayman islands might be desirable... What with not
> having an income tax and such, it might be a good place to retire
> to... The fact that it's within the range of my plane as long as I
> refuel in Key West before crossing Cuba is a plus...

The Bahamas don't have income tax either.  They're also closer and more
American friendly.  We can't work without a permit in either country and
permits are hard to come by in both.  Bahamian money is on a par with ours
rather than a fixed multiple of it as it is in the Caymans.  Most
importantly, as long as you stay away from the major islands, the ones with
the large casinos and hotels, a modest income for America allows one to live
very well in the Bahamas.  We'd be low rent trash compared to most of those
we'd associate with in the Caymans and would have to watch what we said and
did to ensure our visas would not be canceled.

The only downside is that medical care in the Bahamas is poor.  The problem
is diminished by the fact that the Coast Guard will evacuate US residents in
an emergency.

Hmmm, your plane, my boats.  This could work.

Lee
Grumman-581 - 25 Apr 2007 20:38 GMT
> The Bahamas don't have income tax either.

How are their banking privacy laws?  From what I've heard, putting
your money in a Cayman Island bank pretty much would hide it from
Uncle Sam...

> The only downside is that medical care in the Bahamas is poor.  The problem
> is diminished by the fact that the Coast Guard will evacuate US residents in
> an emergency.
>
> Hmmm, your plane, my boats.  This could work.

Hell, all we need to do is get a couple of us together and buy one of
the smaller islands... Perhaps one that has high enough ground that
storm surge from possible hurricanes won't result in us being able to
do a wreck dive from our living rooms? <grin>

According to:
http://www.gloriousbahamas.com/immigration.html

<snip>
We Want Your Money, Not You
</snip>

Well, at least they're honest about it...
Lee Bell - 26 Apr 2007 12:22 GMT
>> The Bahamas don't have income tax either.

> How are their banking privacy laws?  From what I've heard, putting
> your money in a Cayman Island bank pretty much would hide it from
> Uncle Sam...

The Bahamas have similar banking privacy laws, but there's really no place
as safe as once was the case.  As part of the USA Patriot Act, there's a
prohibition against US banks doing business with bank secrecy havens, places
with strong privacy laws without significant government oversight.  It's
quite difficult for financial institutions in any Carribean country to
survive when all transactions with American banks are banned.  No accounts
in the US to clear funds, no wire transfers, etc.  The laws and oversight in
both the Bahamas and the Caymans changed as a direct result of the
prohibition.

If you look on your income tax form, you'll find a few check boxes at the
bottom of one of the pages specifically dealing with the existance of
foreign banking assets.  It includes more than just bank accounts.  It looks
innocent enough, but I strongly recommend you avoid getting caught answering
falsely.

> Hell, all we need to do is get a couple of us together and buy one of
> the smaller islands... Perhaps one that has high enough ground that
> storm surge from possible hurricanes won't result in us being able to
> do a wreck dive from our living rooms? <grin>

Where are you going to find one that we can afford and who is going to
provide the infrastructure, essential things like grocery, liquor and tackle
stores?

Lee
Kula - 26 Apr 2007 13:17 GMT
> Where are you going to find one that we can afford and who is going to
> provide the infrastructure, essential things like grocery, liquor and
> tackle stores?

Smart man.  Everyone thinks they want to live on a tropical island until
they discover the realities of living on a tropical island.

kula
Carl Nisarel - 26 Apr 2007 16:00 GMT
"Kula" <eeolson@hawaii.rr.com> noted:

>  Everyone thinks they want to live on a tropical island until
> they discover the realities of living on a tropical island.

The price of paradise, as documented by Corky Trinidad.
Grumman-581 - 26 Apr 2007 19:38 GMT
> Where are you going to find one that we can afford and who is going to
> provide the infrastructure, essential things like grocery, liquor and tackle
> stores?

Yeah, it would suck having to fly over to Miami every time you needed
to do a beer run... Kind of like living in a dry county in Texas...

Oh well, Grace would have a problem with it anyway... There's got to
be a *good* traditional Chinese restaurant around for her to be
happy... That plus the herd mentality of the orientals... They just
don't feel comfortable unless they're crowded together like
sardines...
Chris Guynn - 27 Apr 2007 14:29 GMT
> > Where are you going to find one that we can afford and who is going to
> > provide the infrastructure, essential things like grocery, liquor and tackle
> > stores?
>
> Yeah, it would suck having to fly over to Miami every time you needed
> to do a beer run... Kind of like living in a dry county in Texas...

a couple of these should fix that problem up pretty well...

www.vvessel.com

> Oh well, Grace would have a problem with it anyway... There's got to
> be a *good* traditional Chinese restaurant around for her to be
> happy... That plus the herd mentality of the orientals... They just
> don't feel comfortable unless they're crowded together like
> sardines...
Joe English - 28 Apr 2007 02:00 GMT
>>>Where are you going to find one that we can afford and who is going to
>>>provide the infrastructure, essential things like grocery, liquor and tackle
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>>don't feel comfortable unless they're crowded together like
>>sardines...

he doesn't know which closet he is in
Carl Nisarel - 25 Apr 2007 14:07 GMT
Mike Shelley aka Grumman-581 <grumman581@DIE-SPAMMER-SCUM-
gmail.com> sputtered:

> I'm thinking the Cayman islands might be desirable.

Are you prepared to register all of your guns there, Mikey?

Or are you planning on smuggling them in (like you claimed to
have done in Canada).

http://www.caymannetnews.com/cgi-
script/csArticles/articles/000088/008810.htm

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Carl Nisarel - 25 Apr 2007 14:12 GMT
"Lee Bell" <pleebell@bellsouth.net> sputtered:

> We'll see how it all plays out, but if Hillary is elected, I
> may give up being a Florida resident and become an island boy
> myself.  The closest of the Bahamas is only 50 miles from
> where I currently live.

Make sure you declare your firearms as required when you go.

"Tourists who arrive by private boat are required to declare
firearms to Bahamian Customs and leave firearms on the boat
while in the Bahamas."
http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_989.html

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Kula - 25 Apr 2007 20:17 GMT
> Personally, I think we'd have a hard time getting any very strongly
> religious person elected.  Aside from party lines, which not everyone
> follows anyway, anyone who would be expected to strongly promote any
> religious preference, is going to find a lot of people who believe
> differently, turned against him.

Hmmmm.  Let's see, people who have clearly expressed their strong religious
beliefs and were elected to high office: Ronald Reagan, Bill Clinton, Tom
Delay, Jimmy Carter, Rick Santorum, ...

Maybe it's time we look to Atheism.

kula
Lee Bell - 26 Apr 2007 12:13 GMT
> Hmmmm.  Let's see, people who have clearly expressed their strong
> religious beliefs and were elected to high office: Ronald Reagan, Bill
> Clinton, Tom Delay, Jimmy Carter, Rick Santorum, ...

I don't reacll that Reagan professed strong religious beliefs or that
Clinton, Delay, or Carter's actions indicated they were honest in expressing
their belief.  As the saying goes, proof of the pudding is in the eating.

The last President I know of that I think actually had strong religous
beliefs was John F. Kennedy, and somebody shot him.  I can think of other
Kennedy's that would have made better targets.

> Maybe it's time we look to Atheism.

I prefer some religious conviction.  If nothing else, religion tends to
teach morality in dealing with others.  It's not foolproof, and there are no
guarantees that anyone will follow their moral training, but at least
there's been some.

Lee
Kula - 26 Apr 2007 13:26 GMT
>> Hmmmm.  Let's see, people who have clearly expressed their strong
>> religious beliefs and were elected to high office: Ronald Reagan, Bill
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> no guarantees that anyone will follow their moral training, but at least
> there's been some.

Holly cow!

Kennedy was forced to publically disavow his religion.  Reagan *always*
spoke of his religion but never went to church.  Clinton could quote the
Bible backward and forward.  Delay, being now (thankfully) unemployed is a
big hit on the revival-tent circuit.  Santorum, I have no idea what happened
to him but I'm just happy he's gone.

But Jimmy Carter?!  You don't recall that Jimmy Carter had strong religious
beliefs?!    HELLO!  ....

Are you deliberately being so obtuse?
Dennis (Icarus) - 26 Apr 2007 19:17 GMT
> >> Hmmmm.  Let's see, people who have clearly expressed their strong
> >> religious beliefs and were elected to high office: Ronald Reagan, Bill
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> But Jimmy Carter?!  You don't recall that Jimmy Carter had strong religious
> beliefs?!    HELLO!  ....

HELLO! that's not what he said as regards to Clinton, Delay, or Carter's.

What he said was "that Clinton, Delay, or Carter's actions indicated they
were honest in expressing their belief.  As the saying goes, proof of the
pudding is in the eating."

In other words, they expressed their religious belief, but in Lee's view
their actions indicated that it was just talk.

> Are you deliberately being so obtuse?

Generally, its a good idea to avoid such statements - particularly when its
clear that you misunderstood what was written.

Dennis
Kula - 26 Apr 2007 20:52 GMT
> pudding is in the eating."
>
> In other words, they expressed their religious belief, but in Lee's view
> their actions indicated that it was just talk.

Just try to say that Jimmy Carter does not live his religious beliefs.  I
don't agree with everything the man does but he is no hypocrite when it
comes to his religion.
Scott - 26 Apr 2007 21:04 GMT
> Just try to say that Jimmy Carter does not live his religious beliefs.  I
> don't agree with everything the man does but he is no hypocrite when it
> comes to his religion.

There are several things I admire about ole Jimmy.

For one, when the Debacle in the Desert went bad, he owned up immediately.

He is not a typical pathological liar like most politicians, Clintons in
particular, keeping in mind that he is a politician so he isn't immune from
the exposure.

Cant run between the raindrops...
Dennis (Icarus) - 27 Apr 2007 03:43 GMT
> > pudding is in the eating."
> >
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> don't agree with everything the man does but he is no hypocrite when it
> comes to his religion.

Well, it looks like Lee did. :-)

Still, I take it you concede that his assessment of Clinton and DeLay's
"living their religious belief" is accurate and that your "are you being
deliberately obtuse" comment unwarranted?

Dennis
Lee Bell - 26 Apr 2007 19:36 GMT
> Kennedy was forced to publically disavow his religion.

Never happened.  He was forced to publically state that, as President, he
would follow his conscience and the laws of the land rather than the Pope.
That's very different.

> Reagan *always* spoke of his religion but never went to church.

I'm religious and never go to church either, but that's not what I mean by
"strongly religious."  Perhaps our definitions differ.

> Clinton could quote the Bible backward and forward.

So can the devil.  I didn't say Clinton didn't profess religion, I said he
didn't show significant indication of following the religion he professed.
Same for the rest.

> But Jimmy Carter?!  You don't recall that Jimmy Carter had strong
> religious beliefs?!    HELLO!  ....

Do you recall the words "Lust in my Heart?"  Every religion I'm aware of
considers the thought nearly as significant as the deed.  Of course Clinton
had both the thought and the deed.

> Are you deliberately being so obtuse?

No, I just find some religions background better than none.  I don't favor
"strong" anything, whether it's a religion or atheism.

Al Sharpton is strongly religious.

Lee
Carl Nisarel - 26 Apr 2007 18:58 GMT
"Lee Bell" <pleebell@bellsouth.net> sputtered:

> I'm religious and never go to church either, but that's not
> what I mean by "strongly religious."  Perhaps our definitions
> differ.

Lee goes for the No True Scotsman fallacy.

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Carl Nisarel - 26 Apr 2007 15:57 GMT
"Lee Bell" <pleebell@bellsouth.net> sputtered:

> I don't reacll that Reagan professed strong religious beliefs

God and Ronald Reagan: A Spiritual Life
by Paul Kengor
http://www.amazon.com/God-Ronald-Reagan-Spiritual-
Life/dp/0060571411
Carl Nisarel - 26 Apr 2007 15:59 GMT
"Lee Bell" <pleebell@bellsouth.net> sputtered:

> I don't reacll that Reagan professed strong religious beliefs

Ronald Reagan, My Christian Hero
By Jerry Falwell

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