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Scuba Forum / General / April 2007SAC Calculations for "Multi-Level" Diving
In preparation for my "Advanced Nitrox / Deco" course, I'm reviewing concepts like SAC rate calculations. I'm wondering if there are any decent algorithms for computing SAC for "multi-level" dives or is it just SOP to use the deepest depth and "total time." One formula for a "single depth" calculation I've seen is: SAC = (psi consumed / total bottom time{min} ) / ((depth{ft} + 33) / 33). Now the example given assumes a depth of 60ft and a bottom time of 40min + 3 min safety stop at 20ft, so total time = 43 min, but doesn't take into account the change of depth from 60 to 20 ft, or perhaps time at interim depths before reaching the safety stop. With 2500psi consumed, the SAC by the above formula = 20.7 psi/min. Of course, this formula also doesn't take into account the tank size/volume either so it would have to be recalculated for different tanks. In any event, is there such a thing as a "multi-level" algorithm for SAC (using different times at different depths), or better still, some existing software to compute multi-level SACs (that, perhaps, may also take tank size into account)? As an aside, I find it very concerning that when I Google SAC Rate on certain Scuba websites, I get such responses as "Sacramento Mortgage Rates" and "Refinance Quotes" etc. etc. Thanks. ____________________________________________ Regards, Arnold Visit my Travel Photo Website: http://www.mag3.biz/travel_photos/home_page.html Absolutely 100% SPAM free!!!! HONEST!!! :-) > In preparation for my "Advanced Nitrox / Deco" course, I'm reviewing concepts like SAC rate calculations. > I'm wondering if there are any decent algorithms for computing SAC for "multi-level" dives or is it just [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Arnold 30 seconds returned the following; http://groups.google.com/groups?as_q=SAC+RMV&num=100&scoring=r&hl=en&as_epq=&as_ oq=&as_eq=&as_ugroup=rec.scuba&as_usubject=&as_uauthors=&lr=&as_drrb=q&as_qdr=&a s_mind=1&as_minm=1&as_miny=1981&as_maxd=7&as_maxm=4&as_maxy=2007&safe=off http://tinyurl.com/2ywuzy > In preparation for my "Advanced Nitrox / Deco" course, I'm reviewing concepts like SAC rate calculations. > I'm wondering if there are any decent algorithms for computing SAC for "multi-level" dives or is it just > SOP to use the deepest depth and "total time." One formula for a "single depth" calculation I've seen is: > > SAC = (psi consumed / total bottom time{min} ) / ((depth{ft} + 33) / 33). You determine your SAC at a single depth. You record the PSI and starting time at the start of the test and then the PSI and time at the end. You swim at a normal pace for the entire time of the test. It doesn't have to be your whole dive. Your instructor will most likely supervise this. PSI/minute is specific to one size tank. In this class, you will be using a sling tank of deco gas that is most likely smaller than the one (s) on your back. What you need to determine and use for calculations is cu ft or liters per minute. When you plan a multi-level dive, you use your SAC * time * depth in ata * whatever fudge or safety factors you are using to determine the gas requirement for each depth segment and then add them up to get your total gas requirement for each gas you are carrying. The deco software I use lets you plug in your SAC for each segment and calculates your gas requirements. There is a SAC calculator here: http://cisatlantic.com/trimix/tools.htm under "Other Applications". >The deco software I use lets you plug in your SAC for each segment and >calculates your gas requirements. > >There is a SAC calculator here: http://cisatlantic.com/trimix/tools.htm >under "Other Applications". That's a nice site in general. I'm sure it will come in handy later. Thanks. The SAC calculator is pretty good. ____________________________________________ Regards, Arnold > >There is a SAC calculator here: http://cisatlantic.com/trimix/tools.htm > >under "Other Applications". > > That's a nice site in general. I'm sure it will come in handy later. The site hasn't been updated for several years, but it has a lot of good information and entertainment. It was born during the tech diving feuds of the mid to late 90's and early 2000's. The owner is Jim Cobb in Virginia Beach. Much of what you read there may not agree with what your TDI instructor tells you. >> That's a nice site in general. I'm sure it will come in handy later. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Virginia Beach. Much of what you read there may not agree with what your >TDI instructor tells you. Well, as is said here time and time again, it's the "instructor" that counts. But it's still a pretty decent reference point. It's good to learn things like this now as it may influence future decisions like equipment purchases etc. (computers that actually *do* some of this stuff etc. - or at least capture the data so you can do it). ____________________________________________ Regards, Arnold > Well, as is said here time and time again, it's the "instructor" that counts. But it's > still a pretty decent reference point. It's good to learn things like this now as it > may influence future decisions like equipment purchases etc. (computers that > actually *do* some of this stuff etc. - or at least capture the data so you can > do it). I will be happy to show you my neat, elegantly simple gear setup this spring and point out a few walking CF's ;-) > I will be happy to show you my neat, elegantly simple gear setup this > spring and point out a few walking CF's ;-) Careful Al, someone will come along and call you a "cultist". <grin> Curtis >> I will be happy to show you my neat, elegantly simple gear setup this >> spring and point out a few walking CF's ;-) > > Careful Al, someone will come along and call you a "cultist". <grin> No, a "Kool-Aid drinker"... :-) > >> I will be happy to show you my neat, elegantly simple gear setup this > >> spring and point out a few walking CF's ;-) > > > > Careful Al, someone will come along and call you a "cultist". <grin> > > No, a "Kool-Aid drinker"... :-) Hey, thats copyright protected... >> >> I will be happy to show you my neat, elegantly simple gear setup this >> >> spring and point out a few walking CF's ;-) [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Hey, thats copyright protected... Got it. No, a "Kool-Aid drinker© "... :-) > In article <vdlh131139f6lt866l6t05gl0qopau7eib@4ax.com>, zmpmag3- > plongee@yahoo.com says... [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > I will be happy to show you my neat, elegantly simple gear setup this > spring and point out a few walking CF's ;-) Me too. Maybe we'll allow him to join our "cult". 8-)  SignatureArt Greenberg artg at eclipse dot net >> >There is a SAC calculator here: http://cisatlantic.com/trimix/tools.htm >> >under "Other Applications". [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Virginia Beach. Much of what you read there may not agree with what your > TDI instructor tells you. <cough> >>In preparation for my "Advanced Nitrox / Deco" course, I'm reviewing concepts like SAC rate calculations. >>I'm wondering if there are any decent algorithms for computing SAC for "multi-level" dives or is it just [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > There is a SAC calculator here: http://cisatlantic.com/trimix/tools.htm > under "Other Applications". It's also pretty easy to make a consumption calculator on an Excel spreadsheet. Remember that it doesn't take much to throw yer calculations way off, especially for yer bottom gas: colder than expected, more current, big mean sharks chasing you, finding a heavy treasure, having to work harder to detach yer find fromm the hull... And as Al implies, better to use CF, not psi, for yer calculations, then convert that to the specific tank for that dive. esg >Al originally wrote: >>There is a SAC calculator here: http://cisatlantic.com/trimix/tools.htm >>under "Other Applications". >Remember that it doesn't take much to throw yer calculations way off, >especially for yer bottom gas: colder than expected, more current, big >mean sharks chasing you, finding a heavy treasure, having to work harder >to detach yer find fromm the hull... Understood. "Other than normal" activity is always a complicating factor. My little stint at the "City of Washington" site bears witness to that. >And as Al implies, better to use CF, not psi, for yer calculations, then >convert that to the specific tank for that dive. Thankfully, the calculator to which Al refers above gives the solution in CF (you enter the tank size in the window). ____________________________________________ Regards, Arnold Visit my Travel Photo Website: http://www.mag3.biz/travel_photos/home_page.html Absolutely 100% SPAM free!!!! HONEST!!! :-) >In preparation for my "Advanced Nitrox / Deco" course, I'm reviewing concepts like SAC rate calculations. >I'm wondering if there are any decent algorithms for computing SAC for "multi-level" dives or is it just >SOP to use the deepest depth and "total time." The easy way is to have or borrow a computer that will do the work for you. The Suunto Cobra (and probably many other air-integrated models) records your starting pressure, your ending pressure, and it computes your average depth for the dive. If you download it to a PC and use their divelog software, you simply tell it your tank's capacity and rated pressure, and the SAC is computed for you. I get a SAC figure for each dive. It shows me how well I'm doing and how strenuous each dive was. Since the SAC doesn't significantly change with depth, your alternative would be to make a single-level calculation and just use that figure. Decide which level you want to work with and just note the starting pressure and time and the ending pressure and time before leaving that depth. SignatureRon (user ron in domain spamblocked.com) > Since the SAC doesn't significantly change with depth, your >alternative would be to make a single-level calculation and just >use that figure. Decide which level you want to work with and >just note the starting pressure and time and the ending pressure >and time before leaving that depth. Which may as well then be the deepest depth as that would invlove the greatest consumption of gas per time interval, all other things being equal. Either that, or I can average several readings at several depths. I just have to record PSI levels manually as that seems the only thing my computer doesn't record (and it is air-integrated). The SAC calculator Al recommened is pretty good actually. ____________________________________________ Regards, Arnold > In preparation for my "Advanced Nitrox / Deco" course, I'm reviewing concepts like SAC rate calculations. > I'm wondering if there are any decent algorithms for computing SAC for "multi-level" dives or is it just > SOP to use the deepest depth and "total time." One formula for a "single depth" calculation I've seen is: <snuip> Best answer: http://www.hhssoftware.com/v-planner/ (or something similar). Next best answer: Just plan all the levels separately and add them together. John Eells > In preparation for my "Advanced Nitrox / Deco" course > In preparation for my "Advanced Nitrox / Deco" course, Wow. Back in September, less than 7 months ago, you said: > Wow time flies when you're having fun I guess. It's been less than 1 year since I became a > rec.scuban (and just over 1 year since I started diving), and already I have my "Rescue Diver" > cert (picked that up in Bora Bora 09/01), and I just did my last two specialty certs off the NJ > Shore a week ago (Wreck Diver/Deep Diver). I have just 5 more dives to go before my PADI > "Master Scuba Diver" certification { Scary, huh? } :-)))))) Scary indeed. In January 2007, just a few months later and a few months ago, you wrote about an incident in the Florida Keys for which you were woefully unprepared. Unprepared. For a shallow dive. In the frickin' Florida Keys. Your excuses at the time: > Several factors here. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > led by and instructor or DM); > 5) Being inactive for 3-4 months (not "physically" as you say, but experience/psychologywise); That's a lot of excuses. For a shallow dive. In the frickin' Florida Keys. > least for now, I need "logged > dives" until I get to the magic 100+ range. After that, I'll have enough to qualify for whatever certs I might > want to do thereafter (eg. TDI "Solo" Cert), and it won't matter as much if the dive isn't "logged" per se. If Again, back in January. Not even 100 dives yet, though you were trying to get them as fast as possible to get more badges. > I'm not sure how "technical" I plan to go in the future (I can see doing some decompression profiles, perhaps > some trimix dives etc.), but entry to the above group is a reasonable longer term goal for me and one to which > I will aspire And now it's April and you're already taking a tech class. That's a "reasonable longer term"??? Just a few months ago, in the frickin' Florida Keys, you couldn't keep your buoyancy on a shallow reef dive. You lost your buddy. And now you're taking a tech class? Unbelievable. > I will aspire You misspelled expire. In the badly paraphrased words of a former rec.scuban: please write your old lady's phone number on your tank so they know who to call. >> I will aspire > >You misspelled expire. No, I didn't. >In the badly paraphrased words of a former rec.scuban: please write >your old lady's phone number on your tank so they know who to call. Well, since you aren't my "old lady," then why worry about it? Yes, I had a bad day back in January. But I got over it. I had been idle for 4 months and went right into a day with 25mph winds and 6-8 foot seas. I wasn't prepared for it. But I managed to make it back to the boat on my own without assistance and with 455+ PSI left in my 80cf tank. And when I realized I wasn't prepared, I stopped and didn't put myself into further danger that day. And not only that, but I managed to keep my breakfast down when some of the more "experienced" divers were losing their's over the rail. Since then, I've done 14 more dives at sites with more severe currents and at much deeper depths and had no trouble at all, and no anxiety whatsoever. Depth/Time doesn't bother me. Surge did. And now I expect it won't, since I now know what to expect when diving in the "Frickin' Florida keys." I really don't think I'll have the same problem again. And what does any of that have to do with taking a class? There's nothing wrong with taking the class. The class dives are in a controlled environment (there at Dutch) supervised by two instructors (both of whom are SDI/TDI "Instructor Trainers" and PADI "Master Instructors." The deco profiles are minimal. The requirements for the class are 50 logged dives (I have 60 now) some of which should be ocean dives in cold water (which I also have) and to have basic Nitrox certification (another "tech" class BTW and which I've been for over 1 year with over 50% of my dives being Nitrox), and to be Dry Suit Certified (which I will be next month). Now does this mean I'm going to go right out and do several "Bikini Atoll" multi-deco dives or attempt to penetrate the Spiegel Grove the next day? Of course not. I may not be as "experienced" as most of you, but I'm sufficiently confident in my skills and experience to take this class. And so are my instructors, or they wouldn't let me take it. There are some dives I want to do at around 130fsw but that might go into a deco scenario if I want to stay down that far longer than 10 minutes. And that's all I want at this point. No more, honest! I appreciate your concern Greg, but I really wouldn't worry. I'm not. ____________________________________________ Regards, Arnold > And what does any of that have to do with taking a class? There's nothing wrong > with taking the class. The class dives are in a controlled environment (there at Dutch) > supervised by two instructors (both of whom are SDI/TDI "Instructor Trainers" and PADI > "Master Instructors." The deco profiles are minimal. > I may not be as "experienced" as most of you, but I'm sufficiently confident in my skills > and experience to take this class. And so are my instructors, or they wouldn't let me take > it. There are some dives I want to do at around 130fsw but that might go into a deco scenario > if I want to stay down that far longer than 10 minutes. And that's all I want at this point. > No more, honest! Your instructors are confident as long as your credit card clears. But you're taking a tech class with only 60 dives under your belt, in a quarry, then expecting to do your "deco scenario" in the real ocean, right? The same ocean that chewed you up and spit you out just a few months ago on a shallow reef dive in the frickin' Florida Keys. Amazing. > I appreciate your concern Greg, but I really wouldn't worry. I'm not. I'm not concerned about you. More like amazed at your indifference to life and astonished you haven't started instructor training yet. Don't you only need 60 dives to do that? What are you waiting for? >> I may not be as "experienced" as most of you, but I'm sufficiently confident in my skills >> and experience to take this class. And so are my instructors, or they wouldn't let me take [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Your instructors are confident as long as your credit card clears. No, not these instructors. If I wasn't ready for something, t hey'd tell me. They actually do have reputations to protect. >But you're taking a tech class with only 60 dives under your belt, in >a quarry, then expecting to do your "deco scenario" in the real ocean, >right? The same ocean that chewed you up and spit you out just a few >months ago on a shallow reef dive in the frickin' Florida Keys. >Amazing. As stated before, I'm a bit better prepared for the "FFK's" :-) then I was in January. I know how dive ops work there, and I know it's OK to surface if need be to get your bearings then go back down to make your way back to the boat. And I know to do that now when I need to (ie. when "rule of 3rds" kicks in). We'll certainly find out this June when I get "back on the horse" of which I fell of. Too bad you won't be there to see how I do! >> I appreciate your concern Greg, but I really wouldn't worry. I'm not. > >I'm not concerned about you. More like amazed at your indifference to >life I am *not* indifferent to life as you say. I care a lot about living, and that's why I take classes to get the training I need for the things I want to do. As previously stated, all I want to do here is be prepared to extend my bottom time on a dive that skirts the "recreational" depth and time limits by just a hair. I'm not trying to do some super huge technical monster dive Not at all. >and astonished you haven't started instructor training yet. >Don't you only need 60 dives to do that? What are you waiting for? For DM you actually need only 20 to start and 60 by the time you finish. And yes, all the other prerequisites I have already. So what am I waiting for? Several things: 1) The desire to do it (which I don't have right now); 2) For my stamina and physical strength to improve (which will over time); 3) For my diving skills to improve to the point where I'm confident enough to teach them to others (for which the "Solo" card and 100+ logged dives I seek will help a little); I have no desire to work professionally as a DM or instructor - Doesn't pay enough. But I do have a 10 y/o niece and 7 y/o nephew (see, I *do* have something to live for) for which I'd like to be there to supervise their training when the time comes. Yes, some instructors I've worked with (and not the two I'm taking this current course from), have sought to DM me already. It is I who told them "no," not 'till the above are satisfied. So are you satisfied now??? ____________________________________________ Regards, Arnold > No, not these instructors. If I wasn't ready for something, t hey'd > tell me. They actually do have reputations to protect. They won't know until they see you perform the skills required for this class. And they'll have at least some of your money by then, which is really all that matters to them. Anyway, Arnold, I think you're missing Greg's point. You might be an exception, but generally speaking, one doesn't gain the kind of skill you'll need to dive safely without actually diving. And 60 dives isn't enough to have the foundation you'll need to go on to technical diving. I admire your ambition, and your desire to gain skills and proficiency. You're relatively young. You have plenty of time. Take your time. I guarantee you'll enjoy all this at least as much if you do. And I guarantee you won't be missing anything if you don't move so fast. SignatureArt Greenberg artg at eclipse dot net > >> I may not be as "experienced" as most of you, but I'm sufficiently confident in my skills > >> and experience to take this class. And so are my instructors, or they wouldn't let me take [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] > > Arnold OMG Arnold you may be a nice kid, but diving with you would be like sitting on gunpowder barrel and playing with matches. Time to grow up. First answer yourself simple question - why do you dive? I have strange impression that you have some kind of inferiority complex and scuba is your way to compensate it. Janusz > OMG Arnold you may be a nice kid, but diving with you would be like > sitting on gunpowder barrel and playing with matches. Time to grow > up. First answer yourself simple question - why do you dive? I have > strange impression that you have some kind of inferiority complex and > scuba is your way to compensate it. The number of badges on a person's wetsuit is inversely proportional to the person's self-confidence level... On 9 Kwi, 23:59, Grumman-581 <grumman...@DIE-SPAMMER-SCUM-gmail.com> wrote: > On 9 Apr 2007 07:27:51 -0700, "janus...@hotmail.com" > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > The number of badges on a person's wetsuit is inversely proportional > to the person's self-confidence level... unless he is a boy scout Janusz P.S. C-card collectors tend to be self-confident what usually doesn't translates as safe divers > As stated before, I'm a bit better prepared for the "FFK's" :-) then I was in January. I know > how dive ops work there, and I know it's OK to surface if need be to get your bearings then > go back down to make your way back to the boat. And I know to do that now when I need to > (ie. when "rule of 3rds" kicks in). Good start. You still have a lot to learn before you engage in any more learning. > I am *not* indifferent to life as you say. I care a lot about living, and that's why I take classes > to get the training I need for the things I want to do. As previously stated, all I want to do here > is be prepared to extend my bottom time on a dive that skirts the "recreational" depth and time > limits by just a hair. I'm not trying to do some super huge technical monster dive Not at all. Bullshit. The TDI Advanced Nitrox/Deco. Procedures class trains you to go to 150' with up to a half-hour of mandatory deco. That's more than a "hair". If you merely want to extend your bottom time skirting the "recreational" depth and time, you don't need a class. When you can responsibly manage your own gas, and with the use of practically any dive computer, you can easily skirt the limits by just a hair. But with a card telling you that you're certified to 150' for a half- hour of deco, why stop there? Heck, you're narced at that depth, with absolutely no experience being narced, so why would you stop? Do it solo even, once you have the solo card. What you lack is the experience that can tell you what your limits are. Until then, you're relying on what your card "allows" you to do and with your limited experience, that's a deadly combination. And that's my first point, in a nutshell: experience breeds a good diver as much or more than any class. Too much class can be dangerous when you haven't yet honed your basic instincts. My second point is, why rush it? Wake up and smell the roses. Except for a handful of wrecks around the world, there's plenty of great diving above 130'. What is so important below 130' that you can't wait for a few more years of experience before getting there, even if means endangering your life? >>> I may not be as "experienced" as most of you, but I'm sufficiently >>> confident in my skills [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > me. They actually do have > reputations to protect. I got my Advanced Nitrox and Deep Air card about 5 months after I got certed, although I had more dives than you. The Deep Air dive was 205fsw. It was about the time I got my Trimix Blender's card. Proceed at your own pace. Proceed at your own risk. :-) >>>> I may not be as "experienced" as most of you, but I'm sufficiently >>>> confident in my skills [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > Proceed at your own risk. :-) Or, just dive in and see if you like it, the training that is. I think that if you want to do it, feel comfortable with it, then it's time. Good luck! Dan > In the badly paraphrased words of a former rec.scuban: please write > your old lady's phone number on your tank so they know who to call. Maybe he can leave a photo of her pasted to the tank so we can know if she's *worth* calling... <dirty-old-man-grin> >> In the badly paraphrased words of a former rec.scuban: please write >> your old lady's phone number on your tank so they know who to call. > >Maybe he can leave a photo of her pasted to the tank so we can know if >she's *worth* calling... <dirty-old-man-grin> Sorry to disappoint, but I'm currently "unattached." :-) ____________________________________________ Regards, Arnold > Sorry to disappoint, but I'm currently "unattached." :-) Damn, you're smarter than you appeared ! <grin> > In preparation for my "Advanced Nitrox / Deco" course, I'm reviewing > concepts like SAC rate calculations. > I'm wondering if there are any decent algorithms for computing SAC for > "multi-level" dives or is it just > SOP to use the deepest depth and "total time." Use a computer or watch (Citizen Hyper Aqualand) to give you average depth and use that in your calculations. >> In preparation for my "Advanced Nitrox / Deco" course, I'm reviewing >> concepts like SAC rate calculations. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Use a computer or watch (Citizen Hyper Aqualand) to give you average depth >and use that in your calculations. Thanks. I actually can get "average" depth from my current computer as it stores depth and other stats every 15 seconds during the dive. I can easily plug that into Al's SAC calculator. ____________________________________________ Regards, Arnold >>Use a computer or watch (Citizen Hyper Aqualand) to give you average depth >>and use that in your calculations. > Thanks. I actually can get "average" depth from my current computer as it > stores depth > and other stats every 15 seconds during the dive. I can easily plug that > into Al's SAC > calculator. I didn't see Al's calculator, but considering the source, I'm sure it's accurate. Still, I recommend calculating SAC yourself. Adjusting for depth and pressure is a worthy learning experience, one that will help you keep in mind that 3 ata of depth is 4 ata of pressure. One more suggestion. Start paying a bit of attention to the conditions of each dive you calculate SAC for, from the easy drift with the current, to the no current casual tour of pretty reefs, to the battle up current. Also give some consideration to your stress levels, things like being deeper than normal, or under conditions you're not used to. All of these things will change your gas consumption and, while your resting SAC is a valid tool for planning future dives, your actual SAC is what determines whether or not you get back to the surface with a reserve or fail to get back to the surface at all. Lee First Art said: >You might be an exception, but generally speaking, one doesn't gain the >kind of skill you'll need to dive safely without actually diving. And >60 dives isn't enough to have the foundation you'll need to go on to >technical diving. >I admire your ambition, and your desire to gain skills and proficiency. >You're relatively young. You have plenty of time. Take your time. I >guarantee you'll enjoy all this at least as much if you do. And I >guarantee you won't be missing anything if you don't move so fast. Then Januz said: >OMG Arnold you may be a nice kid, but diving with you would be like >sitting on gunpowder barrel and playing with matches. Time to grow >up. First answer yourself simple question - why do you dive? I have >strange impression that you have some kind of inferiority complex and >scuba is your way to compensate it. And Finally, Greg said: >What you lack is the experience that can tell you what your limits >are. Until then, you're relying on what your card "allows" you to do [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >wait for a few more years of experience before getting there, even if >means endangering your life? MESSAGE RECEIVED!!!!! Three of you saying the same thing in essence is more than enough for me. I will not be taking the class. I will not be doing any dives beyond my experience level. I misunderstood the intent of the class vs. my own intentions. I really only wanted to stay at 130fsw for a little more than 10 min (about 15 min, 20 max). There were some sites in Tahiti that have coral formations at that depth I wanted to photograph. They can wait. I hope they're still there when I *am* ready for it (these formations are dying rapidly), but we'll cross that bridge when we get to it. If this TDI class is training for "hard core" technical dives, then no, it would not be appropriate at this time. At least I found this out before spending all kinds of cash and discovering it wasn't right. And for that, I thank all of the above. For the same reasons I'm not ready for any professional certs (DM etc.), I'm not ready for this either. Perhaps someday. In the mean time, I look forward to both the NJ and FL. rec.scubans giving me more "experience" with regular dives so that I can get to that point, at some point. Thanks guys. I needed that. ____________________________________________ Regards, Arnold > I really only wanted to stay at 130fsw for a little more than 10 min > (about 15 min, 20 max). There were some sites in Tahiti that have > coral formations at that depth I wanted to photograph. They can wait. > I hope they're still there when I *am* ready for it (these formations > are dying rapidly), but we'll cross that bridge when we get to it. 60 dives, and you're carrying a camera? I elected not to until after about 150. It took that long before I felt that I had the requisite buoyancy control, trim, and ability to move in any direction without using my hands. Not to mention situational awareness and familiarity with my gas consumption. Using a camera is a major distraction from the usual things one worries about while diving. Consider what you're photographing, and how rare and fragile it is. Next to your own well being, doing no harm to the environment you're diving in should be your highest priority. > In the mean time, I look forward to both the NJ and FL. rec.scubans > giving me more "experience" with regular dives so that I can get to > that point, at some point. Count on it. SignatureArt Greenberg artg at eclipse dot net >60 dives, and you're carrying a camera? I elected not to until after >about 150. It took that long before I felt that I had the requisite >buoyancy control, trim, and ability to move in any direction without >using my hands. To be honest, I started carrying one at dive #20 (of course, not all the time). I took the "Underwater Photography" specialty course as one of my 5 specialty ratings, right after Nitrox. Land photography is a passion of mine (witness the website). Naturally, that carried over to the "underwater realm." It's one of the main reasons why I kept diving after my OW. >Not to mention situational awareness and familiarity with my gas >consumption. Using a camera is a major distraction from the usual things >one worries about while diving. I don't ever let *anything* distract me from monitoring my gas consumption. Where it (photography) has caused some distraction is in re: relative position to the other divers in the group, and ensuring I don't invade their space, bump into them, etc etc. My Palau dives helped with that a lot. After my camera flooded, I simply just focused on diving and found I did a lot better. I'll admit it was hard. There were things I really wanted to shoot. But, as stated earlier, they can wait. >> In the mean time, I look forward to both the NJ and FL. rec.scubans >> giving me more "experience" with regular dives so that I can get to >> that point, at some point. > >Count on it. Much appreciated. And looking forward to the Dutch "Pig Roast" again this year 06/02. ____________________________________________ Regards, Arnold > If this TDI class is training for "hard core" technical dives, then no, it would not be appropriate > at this time. At least I found this out before spending all kinds of cash and discovering it [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Thanks guys. I needed that. Dive man. Every chance you get. Except with people who are eager to sell you training. Your open water is a learning permit. Would you put your 16 year old daughter into a vette? Relax, dive, and believe nothing that you hear, and half that you see. 99% of divers need no "tech" training, especially with few dives under their belt. Do your SAC calculations on an aluminum 80 and get back to us. You can figure it out. Don't let these guys sell you training you aren't ready for, and when you feel you are ready, which means you need to get into mixed gasses and decompression, ask around a little. You will find even *more* bullshit there. I have a number of IANTD and TDI shingles, but I dive by none of what I was taught in them. After a while, common sense and the beatings from your elders will start to sink in. >After a while, common sense and the beatings from your elders will start to >sink in. Well the "beatings from my elders" have sure as Hell started to..... :-) ____________________________________________ Regards, Arnold \> > >After a while, common sense and the beatings from your elders will start to > >sink in. > Well the "beatings from my elders" have sure as Hell started to..... :-) Only because We already made all the mistakes, and because We care. Other than Us, there is no one to offer the info you need to find "the precious" without spending tons of money, and then coming back to Us anyway. It is inevitable. >\> >> >After a while, common sense and the beatings from your elders will start [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >It is inevitable. And to that end, I will now ask the same question I asked Popeye about "Solo Diving" when I first became a rec.scuban to those here who consider themselves "tech divers:" When did you (and what made you) realize you were "ready" for it? (Keeping in mind that when all is said and done, it must be something inside yourself that says, "I'm ready," not what someone else (or some cert card) says....) ____________________________________________ Regards, Arnold > And to that end, I will now ask the same question I asked Popeye about "Solo Diving" > when I first became a rec.scuban to those here who consider themselves "tech divers:" > > When did you (and what made you) realize you were "ready" for it? Like with the solo class, only after I had already done it on my own. In Truk Lagoon, a very benign place for deep diving as the viz isn't too terrible, there's always a mooring line, no currents or rough surface conditions, and the Odyssey offered the safety feature of a 10' hang bar with tank/reg. We were diving big tanks and were diving them relatively deep. During the trip I made 14 dives deeper than 100', with four of those around 120', two past 130', and one deep bounce to 167'. Other than the bounce, I spent significant time at depth, and eventually started to incur some deco obligations even on the ultra-liberal Cochran and diving nitrox. Mostly the computer wanted me to stop for up to 5 minutes at 10', which is nothing more than a long safety stop. Only once did I incur a 20' "ceiling", but my slow ascent made that go away before hitting it. These were around dives #120-140, after I had been certified two years, and was winding up my DM training. But this was play, and something I could do on my own. I had no desire to take formal tech training at that point. Why? Back home, I didn't have the opportunity to do four dives a day and incur deco obligations on shallow dives, nor did I have the desire to go too deep. It's a big difference going deep in the dark and cold. On warm water trips, I found plenty to see in the shallows. I worked on getting my instructor ticket. I never even touched a camera underwater until someone loaned me one on a dive off Moorea, dive #222. I got my own camera soon after, and that kept me busy for another 40 dives, at which point I got back into cold water diving in a big way with a dependable buddy. Having a change of financial fortune around that time, I finally succumbed to the tech bug, getting Draeger rebreather certified off Catalina Island with dive #268, and doing my first dives on doubles at #276 in preparation for finally taking the ANDI Technical Safe Air Diver class. I sat through the class, bought gear, but ended up too busy with work to do the drills and the dives. Work took precedence over local diving for the next few years, as I explored more warm-water locales at the expense of losing weekend availability for cold water diving, took up videography and more photography, and soon the idea of finishing my technical cert in the local waters lost its appeal. Drysuits and hydration don't combine well. So now I've signed myself up for a TDI Advanced Nitrox/Deco Procedures course in Grand Cayman in June, where by that time I'll have a total of 508 dives over 8 years, including 4 dives on doubles, 6 rebreather dives, 20 solo dives, and probably 80 of my dives below 100' (15 of those below 130'). I hope I'm finally ready for tech training, but I'm still nervous and I'm going to approach this far more seriously than I've ever taken open water diving because it is far more serious. At this point, I don't need the class to do dives to the 150' range with short deco obligations since I've already done that. I do need the class, and the skills I'll hopefully learn in it, to progress on to the Extended Range and Trimix classes that will follow in time. >> And to that end, I will now ask the same question I asked Popeye about "Solo Diving" >> when I first became a rec.scuban to those here who consider themselves "tech divers:" >> >> When did you (and what made you) realize you were "ready" for it? [SNIP] >I never even touched a camera underwater until someone loaned me one >on a dive off Moorea, dive #222. Funny you should mention Moorea, as earlier you said: >>My second point is, why rush it? Wake up and smell the roses. As it turns out, the very site that is causing all this consternation (ie. the site I so desperately want to photograph) is called "The Roses" and it's right off of Moorea (right off the cost of Milepost 14.5), near the Sheraton Moorea Lagoon Resort. It's the montipora coral formations between 30-40meters I wanted to photograph. >I hope I'm finally ready for tech training, but I'm still nervous and >I'm going to approach this far more seriously than I've ever taken [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >the skills I'll hopefully learn in it, to progress on to the Extended >Range and Trimix classes that will follow in time. Thank you.... for an honest answer to an honest question. I realize that the answer is something one can only find in one's self, but it's helpful to know how it worked for others. Just out of curiosity, what kind of diving do you want to do now that requires this tech training at this point? ____________________________________________ Regards, Arnold > >> And to that end, I will now ask the same question I asked Popeye about "Solo Diving" > >> when I first became a rec.scuban to those here who consider themselves "tech divers:" [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > Just out of curiosity, what kind of diving do you want to do now that > requires this tech training at this point? Deep diving. At this point, I simply want to go deep because it's there. And because I already have just about every other certification, if I want to further my training and challenge my experience, I'm left with cave, tech, ice, and CCRs. Ice is too cold and CCRs are too expensive. A cavern/intro-to-cave class will certainly be in my future, but I like coral reef diving the best and I've always wondered what it looks like on a deep wall past 200' or so. Maybe it's all the same, but I might as well find out. In addition to the sheer thrill of going deeper, I'm looking forward to learning some new skills that at the least may improve my open water diving. I'll find out what all the fuss is about with the long hose, get feedback on my buoyancy and trim, survive a few harrassment drills. My near future plans are to take the Extended Range class in Bonaire, maybe by the end of this year depending on how I do in June and time permitting, and dive the Windjammer. A technical wreck class is next on my list, and eventually, probably after gaining some cold water tech/wreck experience, I'll take a trimix class and make another trip to Truk to do it right. If it takes five years or more to get that far, so be it. I'll hopefully have close to 1,000 dives by then and be even wiser. > I've always wondered what it looks like on a deep wall past 200' or > so. Maybe it's all the same, but I might as well find out. Basically, it looks blue... <snicker> Seriously though... On Santa Rosa Wall in Coz, the visibility was good enough that at 180 ft, I could still see down another 200 ft... Same sort of terrain, just a little darker and a bit more blue... If the terrain changes, it's probably further than I would want to go on open circuit... > >>My second point is, why rush it? Wake up and smell the roses. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Sheraton Moorea Lagoon Resort. It's the montipora coral formations > between 30-40meters I wanted to photograph. 30-40m is 100-130fsw, which is within the limits for air. As such, take a year or two to get good at photography and at 100m depths, then head back. You'll need an allignment of having a good day for yourself (Narcosis), good water conditions and good weather conditions (sunlight) and some feedback of different compositions. After 3 or 4 of these, you'll probably have a good photo. At a rate of one trip to Tahiti per yer, expect it to be a five (5) year project to get that particular photograph. > >I hope I'm finally ready for tech training, but I'm still nervous and > >I'm going to approach this far more seriously than I've ever taken [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > that the answer is something one can only find in one's self, but it's > helpful to know how it worked for others. In general, I suspect that when you find divers with hundreds of dives moving into a new area, its probably typically because they've already nibbled along at least the fringes of a particular area, have recognized that it exceeds their risk tolerance (not necessarily the same as their comfort zone, per se) and as such, have recognized the appropriateness of changing, if they want to continue to pursue, particularly if they want to go a bit further. For example, several years ago, a friend & I were going to dive the Windjammer in Bonaire on air. Well, maybe it was more than merely "several years" ;-). We got blown out by weather back then, so it didn't happen. Contemplating that same dive since then, I don't think that I'd really want to do it on air. Thus, the interest/need to pursue Trimix to accomplish that dive (assuming that it remains a goal). -hh >> >>My second point is, why rush it? Wake up and smell the roses. >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >30-40m is 100-130fsw, which is within the limits for air. But only for 10 minutes or so, by the PADI Air tables (or more importantly by my ultra-conservative computer). I wasn't sure if that would be enough time to explore the site at that constant depth and get the photos I needed. I was hoping for 15-20min. I was thinking perhaps EAN24 or thereabouts. BTW, for the record, my deepest so far has been 108fsw. Another at 103, and several in the 90's. The 108 was on EAN32 which put me at 1.36 PO2. Close. But I was only there for 2 min or so and came back up to the 90's. And no, I can't say I've been "narced" yet. At least not underwater. I have however had the experience of several lifetime cumulative hours of "laughing gas" in my dad's dentist chair. :-) > As such, >take a year or two to get good at photography and at 100m depths, then >head back. You'll need an allignment of having a good day for >yourself (Narcosis), good water conditions and good weather conditions >(sunlight) and some feedback of different compositions. After 3 or 4 >of these, you'll probably have a good photo. Excellent advice. > At a rate of one trip to >Tahiti per yer, expect it to be a five (5) year project to get that >particular photograph. More like 10. Tahiti and Palau will be competing with each other for my time and financial resources. Furthermore, I haven't even yet set foot in the Caribbean. >In general, I suspect that when you find divers with hundreds of dives >moving into a new area, its probably typically because they've already [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >appropriateness of changing, if they want to continue to pursue, >particularly if they want to go a bit further. Yes. Greg mentioned something similar when talking about "trying things out on your own." I guess my philosophy has always been to make "informed" decisions about things, thus requiring "education" before "tryout on my own." In this case, a bit too much education, as Greg made quite the valid point in re: "making attempts at dives your card says you can do but for which you might not actually be ready personally." ____________________________________________ Regards, Arnold > >30-40m is 100-130fsw, which is within the limits for air. > > But only for 10 minutes or so, by the PADI Air tables (or more importantly > by my ultra-conservative computer). I wasn't sure if that would be enough > time to explore the site at that constant depth and get the photos I needed. > I was hoping for 15-20min. I was thinking perhaps EAN24 or thereabouts. This is where a bit of historical knowledge allows you to gain perspective: On the "old" (1980s vintage) PADI air table, 20 minutes at 130fsw requires only a 4 minute deco hang at 10fsw...and this assumes 60ft/ min ascent rates. As such, assuming that you prepare for having enough air for your total consumption - - plus whatever extra hang time a modern and conservative (or is it "liability paranoid"?) dive computer will pad that out to be - - is the objective risk of staying longer than just 10 minutes really all that huge? > > At a rate of one trip to > >Tahiti per yer, expect it to be a five (5) year project to get that > >particular photograph. > > More like 10. Tahiti and Palau will be competing with each other for my time and > financial resources. Furthermore, I haven't even yet set foot in the Caribbean. Either way, the point is that there's no substitute for time when it comes to making a good bottle of wine...and many other similar pursuits :-) > I guess my philosophy has always been to make "informed" > decisions about things, thus requiring "education" before "tryout on my own." Nothing wrong with doing the research before doing the doing. -hh > And no, I can't say I've been "narced" yet. At least not underwater. Yes, you have. Guaranteed. SignatureArt Greenberg artg at eclipse dot net >> And no, I can't say I've been "narced" yet. At least not underwater. > >Yes, you have. Guaranteed. I may very well have been. I'm just saying I can't say I have because I never felt anything. It sure didn't feel like my dad's laughing gas at all. Nowhere near it. What does it feel like (to you at least)? ____________________________________________ Regards, Arnold > >> And no, I can't say I've been "narced" yet. At least not underwater. > > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > What does it feel like (to you at least)? I would have sworn I didn't get narked even at 200 feet until I started diving helium. It isn't like taking a hit of N2O, but the mechanism of action is the same. It comes on slowly, and combined with factors such as your field of vision is reduced due to the mask, your movement is restricted by gear and exposure protection, so there are lots of things going on besides catching a buzz that serve to mask it. The effects vary a bit person to person as well, but tests have measured impairment at 33 fsw (in chambers), without exception. I had one diver go to sleep on me at 80 fsw. Laid on the bottom, eyes wide open and breathing, but unresponsive, like hypnosis. I have a little test I give people. I write on a slate; First Name Last _______________________________ Last Name First _______________________________ And have them fill it in at 100 feet or so. The get it wrong every time, and then look at it when we are back on land. They are always stunned, and instant believers. >The effects vary a bit person to person as well, but tests have measured >impairment at 33 fsw (in chambers), without exception. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >The get it wrong every time, and then look at it when we are back on land. >They are always stunned, and instant believers. I did a similar test when doing my "Deep Dive" adventure dive for AOW. I had to do a timed task on the surface, and then the same timed task at 95'. I completed the task underwater only 5 seconds longer than on the surface. The purpose of the test obviously being to demonstrate the effects of being narced. Like I say, maybe I have been. But in all my dives (even those below 100fsw), it never seemed as if I suffered any loss of mental perception or response. Whenever a DM signaled to me (eg. "OK? OK!" etc.) I've always responded instantaneously. I've always kept up with monitoring my gas consumption. I've always responded immediately to any alarms from my computer etc. etc., even when in cold water (55F) at Dutch. I've always been alert to other divers having problems. As for your test above, it actually took me a second or two to figure out even on the surface. But then again, maybe I'm a little "narced" now, having just had several slices of sausage pizza! :-) ____________________________________________ Regards, Arnold > I did a similar test when doing my "Deep Dive" adventure dive for AOW. I had to > do a timed task on the surface, and then the same timed task at 95'. I completed > the task underwater only 5 seconds longer than on the surface. The purpose of the > test obviously being to demonstrate the effects of being narced. I don't think tests like this are all that valid. In my experience, at the AOW or "Deep Diver" specialty depths you can focus on a particular task and easily get it done (especially if you practiced it first on the surface). A true test would be something unexpected and spontaneous. > Like I say, maybe I have been. But in all my dives (even those below 100fsw), it never > seemed as if I suffered any loss of mental perception or response. Whenever a DM > signaled to me (eg. "OK? OK!" etc.) I've always responded instantaneously. I've always > kept up with monitoring my gas consumption. I've always responded immediately to > any alarms from my computer etc. etc., even when in cold water (55F) at Dutch. I've > always been alert to other divers having problems. Such is the indidious nature of the narc at these depths. There is no perception of impairment. You can function at the things you are concentrating on and the things that are almost like motor functions for experienced divers (like watching your gas supply). You feel relaxed and pretty good. You are, however, a little slower at processing things that don't quite make sense at first look, and your decision making judgement is impaired. There is a very good reason for the saying "Plan your dive and dive your plan." At deeper depths, you may still feel pretty good and unaware of any impairment, or you may be aware of having to work a little harder to concentrate on tasks. You may experience the "dark narc", where you become acutely aware of visual and thought narrowing and the scary perception that you are completely out of control. I experienced this once, at 170' in a dark spooky environment, before I really had enough experience to be diving to that depth. I was with a very experienced buddy, and remembered the 3 C's: Communicate that there is a problem, Confess that you are narced and afraid, Conform with your buddy's instructions. (ok, the last one should be "comply", but these things weren't written by English teachers.) I did a series of cave dives one day with a familiar buddy, and on one dive we wanted to try some different sized tanks, so we ended up doing a dive to 100' with him on nitrox and me with 35% helium. It was a fairly simple dive, a circuit that we had set up on the previous dives, but I noticed that he was much slower than I usually perceive him to be at performing the tasks that were assigned to him in our plan. In any cave in FL deeper than 150' (except the ones that are open to only a small group), there is an absolute CF of old lines that were put in by air divers years ago. You look at it and wonder what they were thinking. The people who put these lines in are familiar and respected names to most in the community. You just need to be aware of this. A reef dive to 140' in warm clear water is within many experienced divers' comfort zone, but a cave dive or wreck penetration at that depth is taking on additional unecessary risk. >Such is the indidious nature of the narc at these depths. [SNIP] >You just need to be aware of this. A reef dive to 140' in warm clear >water is within many experienced divers' comfort zone, but a cave dive >or wreck penetration at that depth is taking on additional unecessary >risk. Fair enough. With this perspective, I can now start to concentrate on the subtleties of my behavior underwater to see if I start to notice minute differences. Thanks. ____________________________________________ Regards, Arnold > Fair enough. With this perspective, I can now start to concentrate on > the subtleties of my behavior underwater to see if I start to notice minute > differences. The thing is, as Al pointed out, until you get to the extreme end of narcosis where you are simply wacked and you know it without a doubt, not only will you not notice, but you will not have the ability, clarity or perception to tell the difference. rec.scuba's resident pussy "Scott" <pugetsounddiver@gmail.com> sputtered: > The thing is, as Al pointed out, until you get to the extreme end of > narcosis where you are simply wacked and you know it without a doubt, not > only will you not notice, but you will not have the ability, clarity or > perception to tell the difference. As you demonstrate with just about every post, Scotty. >> Fair enough. With this perspective, I can now start to concentrate on >> the subtleties of my behavior underwater to see if I start to notice [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >only will you not notice, but you will not have the ability, clarity or >perception to tell the difference. Understood. And I realize it will take time since I need to progress to those depths gradually over time. Perhaps as I dive with my fellow rec.scubans, I can ask some of them to throw me a task or two at depth (such as your test) unannounced, so I can start to notice. ____________________________________________ Regards, Arnold mag3 <zmpmag3-plongee@yahoo.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: :Perhaps as I dive with my fellow rec.scubans, I can ask some of them to throw me a :task or two at depth (such as your test) unannounced, so I can start to notice. Don't count on it when you dive with me. I dive for fun. I'll be there to enjoy your company, not evaluate your diverness. Dan Bracuk If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure. > Don't count on it when you dive with me. I dive for fun. I'll be > there to enjoy your company, not evaluate your diverness. Ditto here Arnold. I'll only notice if you destroy vast portions of reef. ---> ;-) <--- Truthfully, those get-togethers are social events, and are pretty much considered to be comfortable levels for all expected. Yes, I'm still planning on Looe Key. Curtis >> Don't count on it when you dive with me. I dive for fun. I'll be >> there to enjoy your company, not evaluate your diverness. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >Curtis Fair enough guys. Looking forward to it. Dan when you're ready, e-mail me with the registration details etc. Also, let me know if you're still interested in going later on with my group as well and which day. I'll set it up. ____________________________________________ Regards, Arnold mag3 <zmpmag3-plongee@yahoo.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: :Fair enough guys. Looking forward to it. Dan when you're ready, e-mail me with the :registration details etc. Also, let me know if you're still interested in going later on with my :group as well and which day. I'll set it up. Registration details? I was kind of hoping one of the Floridians would canvas the group to see who is coming and then select a dive shop based on that number. No sense getting a six pack for 12 people. Dan Bracuk If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure. >mag3 <zmp....e@yahoo.com> pounded away at his keyboard >resulting in: [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >would canvas the group to see who is coming and then select a dive >shop based on that number. No sense getting a six pack for 12 people. Ah, OK. Well, if that doesn't happen by 2nd week of June, let me know and I'll look into it. ____________________________________________ Regards, Arnold >>I did a similar test when doing my "Deep Dive" adventure dive for AOW. I had to >>do a timed task on the surface, and then the same timed task at 95'. I completed [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > task and easily get it done (especially if you practiced it first on the > surface). A true test would be something unexpected and spontaneous. Perzackly. Add to that the expectation (requirement?) that it has to take longer at depth..... >>Like I say, maybe I have been. But in all my dives (even those below 100fsw), it never >>seemed as if I suffered any loss of mental perception or response. Whenever a DM [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > or wreck penetration at that depth is taking on additional unecessary > risk. Good post. esg (Arnold) >>>I did a similar test when doing my "Deep Dive" adventure dive for AOW. I >>>had to do a timed task on the surface, and then the same timed task at >>>95'. I completed >>>the task underwater only 5 seconds longer than on the surface. The >>>purpose of the >>>test obviously being to demonstrate the effects of being narced. (Al) >> I don't think tests like this are all that valid. In my experience, at >> the AOW or "Deep Diver" specialty depths you can focus on a particular >> task and easily get it done (especially if you practiced it first on the >> surface). A true test would be something unexpected and spontaneous. (Mike) > Perzackly. Add to that the expectation (requirement?) that it has to take > longer at depth..... Remember that "task" quite well, did it in about the same time surface as depth. Gave me a false sense of security, thinking I was more tolerant of the Nitrogen than the average "Joe". Experience has changed my perspective. Curtis > (Arnold) > [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Curtis Yup. That AOW BS just perpetuates the myth that you are 1/4 narc'd at 50', 1/2 at 100 and full at 200. (And, of course, a lot less narc'd in Denver than in Miami.) Then the poor dweeb actually does get narc'd and hasn't a clue as to what's going on or what to do. esg > As for your test above, it actually took me a second or two to figure out even on the > surface. But then again, maybe I'm a little "narced" now, having just had several > slices of sausage pizza! :-) The part that sucks is that I show it to them and tell them before the dive; It's the same. The answer is the same. The other thing that is fun is to take a stage bottle with 21/40 in it down. They are on air, you give them the mix and let them breathe it for a couple minutes and it is like someone turned on a light. > I may very well have been. I'm just saying I can't say I have because > I never felt anything. It sure didn't feel like my dad's laughing gas > at all. Nowhere near it. Its a physiological certainty. Higher than normal pressure of nitrogen changes the way the nervous system works. (Some think that oxygen can cause similar effects, hence there may be no advantage in breathing EAN with respect to narcosis.) The effects vary. Sometimes subtle, not at all noticeable, like a little anesthesia. Sometimes not at all subtle - as Al referred to it, "dark narc". Some have said they become paranoid for no apparent reason. An no, you don't need to go to 200 feet on air to experience serious narcosis. It happened once to me at 80 feet. Don't know why. Maybe I wasn't as well hydrated as usual, maybe I descended faster than usual, maybe the vis was low and I was disoriented. It was scary. > What does it feel like (to you at least)? See above. My most usual clue ... I deploy a line on almost every wreck dive (except on upright intact wrecks, sometimes). I do it so much, I should be able to manage it quickly and correctly every time. No such luck. And I know when I've screwed up, too. Its like my hands just won't do what I want them to do. So I'll go to Dutch, and practice at 25 feet, and it goes perfectly. Go back out on an open ocean dive to 80-90 feet, and I'm ham handed again. SignatureArt Greenberg artg at eclipse dot net > And to that end, I will now ask the same question I asked Popeye > about "Solo Diving" when I first became a rec.scuban to those here [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > inside yourself that says, "I'm ready," not what someone else (or > some cert card) says....) Never. I don't feel invincible. If I ever do, it is time for me to stop diving. I have an advantage - a buddy for life. Team aspects of diving took us a long time to hone. To be honest, we're still working on it. But that is part of the fun, and it is an investment that pays big dividends. Besides, I don't imagine solo diving could be anywhere near as much fun as diving with Tina. SignatureArt Greenberg artg at eclipse dot net >> And to that end, I will now ask the same question I asked Popeye >> about "Solo Diving" when I first became a rec.scuban to those here [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >Besides, I don't imagine solo diving could be anywhere near as much fun >as diving with Tina. Sorry.... I meant in re: "Tech Diving" not "Solo Diving." :-) ____________________________________________ Regards, Arnold > And to that end, I will now ask the same question I asked Popeye about "Solo Diving" > when I first became a rec.scuban to those here who consider themselves "tech divers:" > > When did you (and what made you) realize you were "ready" for it? I taught myself how to dive and it was solo... I figured that if I was going to make mistakes, I might as well do it in private... Well, except for Darwin... I guess he was kind of watching over me... <grin> Ok, let's try to summarize a bit. About "experience" in general, and being "narced" in particular. First, I said: > I may very well have been. I'm just saying I can't say I have because I never felt > anything. It sure didn't feel like my dad's laughing gas at all. Nowhere near it. > > What does it feel like (to you at least)? And then Scott Said: >I would have sworn I didn't get narked even at 200 feet until I started >diving helium. It isn't like taking a hit of N2O, but the mechanism of [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >protection, so there are lots of things going on besides catching a buzz >that serve to mask it. And then Al said: >At deeper depths, you may still feel pretty good and unaware of any >impairment, or you may be aware of having to work a little harder to [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >once, at 170' in a dark spooky environment, before I really had enough >experience to be diving to that depth. And Regarding my original AOW Test, Several of you said things to the effect of what Curtis said: > Remember that "task" quite well, did it in about the same time surface >as depth. Gave me a false sense of security, thinking I was more tolerant >of the Nitrogen than the average "Joe". > > Experience has changed my perspective. OK, I got all of that. It seems though from listening to all of you that becoming an "experienced" diver is a little "Catch-22ish." In order to get the experiences I need to be considered "experienced," I need to do dives I'm not yet sufficiently "experienced" to do (eg. dive at deep enough depths to know what a true "dark narc" feels like so I can then have perspective on the lesser gradations of it). BTW, I accept on your word that I've been narced, even though I could not perceive any significant signs/symptoms. I guess it just comes down to having a slow progression of experiences over time and just going a little further each time with good mentors alongside for backup. I look forward then to planning out some long range "experience" goals with our NJ and FL contingent of rec.scubans, so eventually I can get a relative idea of when to know for myself when I'm "ready" for a new or advanced skill. 'Cause in the end, I know I'll have to make those decisions. Al/Art - Hope to see you at the Dutch "Pig Roast" then if not sooner (06/02). I did decide BTW to take the Dry Suit course in May there, so I may be there for the DUI/Bare Dry Suit D & P show they're having. Curtis, hope we're still on for Dan's Looe Key dive on 06/24. ____________________________________________ Regards, Arnold Visit my Travel Photo Website: http://www.mag3.biz/travel_photos/home_page.html Absolutely 100% SPAM free!!!! HONEST!!! :-) > OK, I got all of that. It seems though from listening to all of you that > becoming an "experienced" diver is a little "Catch-22ish." In order to get [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > lesser gradations of it). BTW, I accept on your word that I've been narced, > even though I could not perceive any significant signs/symptoms. Everyone has to be inexperienced sometime. Just go diving to have fun, in the ocean, without the instructors and classes, and more than enough stupid sh.t will happen. There are thousands of really good dives to do that are less than 130 ft and not inside anything. Drills and classes don't make you experienced - only real diving can do that. > Al/Art - Hope to see you at the Dutch "Pig Roast" then if not sooner (06/02). > I did decide BTW to take the Dry Suit course in May there, so I may be there for the > DUI/Bare Dry Suit D & P show they're having. Not sure about June 2, but I plan to be there sometime in May. We'll stay in touch. >> Al/Art - Hope to |
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