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Scuba Forum / General / April 2007Does this sound right? (PADI Certification)
I was reading an article written by someone who recently passed their OW PADI certification. They seemed to feel the hardest part of the pool test was the swimming test (no time limit), and learning to hover at a given depth. Otherwise, there was no mention of the instructor dropping all their equipment at the bottom of the pool or any other practices that might freak out a novice. Even buddy breathing was done with an octopus and not a single regulator. OW testing seemed to consist of using what you learned in the pool, and controlling your descent and ascent, along with hovering at specific depths. Not one horror story I'd heard from others that might freak out a novice. While some students had to come back and put some extra time into skills they couldn't master at first, it seems the courses are geared more towards inviting more people into the sport than trying to weed out people who shouldn't be down there (something many of you have commented on). Sheldon > I was reading an article written by someone who recently passed their OW > PADI certification. They seemed to feel the hardest part of the pool test [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > out a novice. Even buddy breathing was done with an octopus and not a > single regulator. This is correct, except that while the swim test might be intimidating, almost everyone passes it. The skills where I've seen the most difficulty to some are mask removal and replacement and ear clearing. Most students have no trouble at all, or manage to overcome some small difficulty with practice and additional coaching. Most OW instructors have DM's or interns helping who can provide some coaching to those who need a little additional help. You can't sell gear and trips to people who fail or "freak out". In the OW evaluation, you perform the same skills you learned and practiced in the pool, but you are usually deeper, which makes the buoyancy skills much easier to perform. I've failed a few people who just didn't belong in the water, but it is always obvious way before we get to the OW checkout weekend and most of the people who aren't suited to diving drop out on their own. I never took a student I wasn't comfortable with on the OW checkout dives. The basic OW training that is offered by almost all US agencies (ANSI Z375.1) is enough to keep you from killing yourself. Scuba diving is not difficult, and your OW card gets you into the water, but experience and diving with experienced people are what make you a good diver. > I've failed a few people who just didn't belong in the water, but it > is always obvious way before we get to the OW checkout weekend and > most of the people who aren't suited to diving drop out on their own. > I never took a student I wasn't comfortable with on the OW checkout > dives. Al is way more conscientious than the average. > The basic OW training that is offered by almost all US agencies (ANSI > Z375.1) is enough to keep you from killing yourself. > Scuba diving is not difficult, and your OW card gets you into the water, > but experience and diving with experienced people are > what make you a good diver. Nicely put. >> The basic OW training that is offered by almost all US agencies (ANSI >> Z375.1) is enough to keep you from killing yourself. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Nicely put. How bizarre. That's a stronger and more specific statement than I make, that sends you and hugh off the deep end. Douglas W Popeye Frederick wrote >>> The basic OW training that is offered by almost all US agencies (ANSI >>> Z375.1) is enough to keep you from killing yourself. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > That's a stronger and more specific statement than I make, that sends you > and hugh off the deep end. Not at all. First, I'm not off the deep end. My perception is just the opposite. I comment on PADI's promotion of themselves and their profit over quality and that their introductory course is not complete. Then you chime in with it must be adequate because there's no pile of bodies. That, in my opinion, is off the deep end. All Al said is that entry level training is minimally enough to keep you from killing yourself, something I have no disagreement with. As I've said several times, the fact that there is no pile of bodies does not make the program adequate. There's more to adequate than that. Furthermore, just good enough to keep you from killing yourself is not what they advertise unless, of course, you've seen and can provide a cite to PADI advertising somewhere that says "Come train with us, we're just adequate to keep you from killing yourself your first time out." Lee > Douglas W Popeye Frederick wrote > [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > advertising somewhere that says "Come train with us, we're just adequate > to keep you from killing yourself your first time out." I stand by my obvious point. All the rest of the PADI-hate is just hyperbole. > I stand by my obvious point. You don't have one. Sorry. >> I stand by my obvious point. > > You don't have one. Sorry. Nothing for you to be sorry about... :-) > > I've failed a few people who just didn't belong in the water, but it > > is always obvious way before we get to the OW checkout weekend and [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Al is way more conscientious than the average. Thanks Lee. The difference is that I do it becauuse I enjoy it, and at best it helps support a helium habit which I can afford without it. I don't sell equipment, and the only specialty card I do is Nitrox. I really enjoy taking former students on local dives, with no compensation other than occasional freebies from boat operators. Your point of view changes a bit when you are relying on it to pay bills and eat. I was fortunate to be affiliated with a shop whose main revenue stream was from commercial diving, and the laid back non money-hungry approach appealed to the higher quality recreational customers. Access to the 3500 PSI bank of 16/84 heliox and the compressor and Haskels was also sweet for me. Since there is no one up here I would so much as buy an O-ring from, I am currently in non-teaching status until I get back to Charleston. >I was reading an article written by someone who recently passed their OW >PADI certification. They seemed to feel the hardest part of the pool test >was the swimming test (no time limit) . . . We've talked this one to death. > . . . and learning to hover at a given depth. That would be buoyancy control and if you have it at the end of your PADI open water course, you'll have done better than most, whether PADI, SSI, or whoever. It's a core skill, but not normally a life threatening one. > Otherwise, there was no mention of the instructor dropping all their > equipment at the bottom of the pool . . . As far as I know, no entry level course currently requires this. It is sometimes added by instructors who wish to give their students a bit more than they paid for. > or any other practices that might freak out a novice. The purpose of training is not to freak out students, particularly if it's PADI training. More than any agency I know of, they are very concerned with making learning as easy and non threatening as possible. They go too far, in my opinion, but not everyone agrees with me. > Even buddy breathing was done with an octopus and not a single regulator. As far as I know, no agency teaches buddy breathing any more either. Buddy breathing is sharing the same second stage, passing it back and forth. Air sharing is normally done with an octopus. All agencies have concluded that sharing air via an octopus is a better way, something I agree with. Some have also concluded that they should not confuse their students by teaching buddy breathing as well, something I strongly disagree with. There's no such thing as too many options. > OW testing seemed to consist of using what you learned in the pool, and > controlling your descent and ascent, along with > hovering at specific depths. Yep, that's about it. > While some students had to come back and put some extra time into skills > they couldn't master at first, it seems the courses are > geared more towards inviting more people into the sport than trying to > weed out people who shouldn't be down there (something > many of you have commented on). Close, but not quite on target. They're geared towards inviting more people to pay them for training and encouraging them to come back and pay them for more courses. Lee >>I was reading an article written by someone who recently passed their OW >>PADI certification. They seemed to feel the hardest part of the pool test [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > sometimes added by instructors who wish to give their students a bit more > than they paid for. was it in the past? I'm sure in a NAUI OW course I did as a refresher after not diving for 4 years we had to take off all our dive gear ( apart from wgt belt ), remove the reg from our mouth and than get geared up again at the bottom of the pool will try and find the old NAUI OW manual to see what it says >>I was reading an article written by someone who recently passed their OW >>PADI certification. They seemed to feel the hardest part of the pool test [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] > > Lee My wife's NAUI instructor did teach both single reg buddy breathing and using the octo. (last spring) He mentioned this was beyond the required curriculum. While not near the requirements of the olden day YMCA class I took, seemed pretty good. The instructor did say he was a bit old school though. So far, at around 70 dives, she is still alive which seems a good result. Dan > I was reading an article written by someone who recently passed their OW > PADI certification. They seemed to feel the hardest part of the pool test [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Sheldon Hovering at a specific depth, aka maintaining neutral buoyancy is: a. an acquired skill b. easier in deeper water. for students to have trouble in a pool is natural. If they stick with diving and put a bit of effort into it, they'll get better. I couldn't do it when I was a student either. Regarding o/w testing consisting of what you learned in the pool, what else would you expect? >> I was reading an article written by someone who recently passed their OW >> PADI certification. They seemed to feel the hardest part of the pool [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > a. an acquired skill > b. easier in deeper water. and easier IMHO in salt water snip > <bra...@axxent.ca> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > easier IMHO in salt water Easiest in ice. On Fri, 30 Mar 2007 14:48:30 -0700, bracuk wrote: >> I was reading an article written by someone who recently passed their OW >> PADI certification. They seemed to feel the hardest part of the pool test [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > Regarding o/w testing consisting of what you learned in the pool, what > else would you expect? Practicing buoyancy control in a pool is about like running with leg weights. > On Fri, 30 Mar 2007 14:48:30 -0700, bracuk wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > Practicing buoyancy control in a pool is about like running with leg > weights. Thanks to all. Good thread. At least you've knocked the fear out of the certification process for me, but I still realize there is no excuse for not taking further training, learning from your peers and making sure your equipment is in top shape. (Been reading "Diver Down.") >> On Fri, 30 Mar 2007 14:48:30 -0700, bracuk wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > not taking further training, learning from your peers and making sure your > equipment is in top shape. (Been reading "Diver Down.") You really seem to be getting your knickers in a knot about this. Calm down listen to your instructer and ask lots of questions. This diving not rocket science we're talking about >>> On Fri, 30 Mar 2007 14:48:30 -0700, bracuk wrote: >>> [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > down listen to your instructer and ask lots of questions. This diving not > rocket science we're talking about Well, when you think about it it is rocket science. Just in the other direction. :-) Maybe not on the test, but there's math and physics and aerodynamics, and if the wrong component (including your brain) fails at the wrong time you could die. Odds are very much against it, but... Seriously, I am looking forward to it and think it's going to be a lot of fun. Just like to know what to expect before I "dive" in. BTW, "Diver Down" is actually a good book. Can't believe how dumb some people are, and it's a book filled with people making really dumb mistakes you can learn from. >>>> On Fri, 30 Mar 2007 14:48:30 -0700, bracuk wrote: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] > direction. :-) Maybe not on the test, but there's math and physics and > aerodynamics, Which you don't need to know only the results of it eg Boyles Law mean always exhale when going up >and if the wrong component (including your brain) fails at the wrong time >you could die. Odds are very much against it, but... in fact you are more likely to dive in the car on the way to your dive > Seriously, I am looking forward to it and think it's going to be a lot of > fun. Just like to know what to expect before I "dive" in. BTW, "Diver > Down" is actually a good book. Can't believe how dumb some people are, > and it's a book filled with people making really dumb mistakes you can > learn from. always plan your dive and include contingencies a bit of thinking about "what if ....... " Imho is not wasted time and this applies to the simplest dive. Enjoy >>>>> On Fri, 30 Mar 2007 14:48:30 -0700, bracuk wrote: >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 62 lines] > Which you don't need to know only the results of it eg Boyles Law mean > always exhale when going up PV=k >>and if the wrong component (including your brain) fails at the wrong time >>you could die. Odds are very much against it, but... > > in fact you are more likely to dive in the car on the way to your dive I'll make that "die" Anyone ever teach you guys how to trim a post, so that people wont get sick of wading through 300 lines of already read bullshit to get to your point, whatever it was? > Anyone ever teach you guys how to trim a post, so that people wont get > sick > of wading through 300 lines of already read bullshit to get to your point, > whatever it was? Personally I love to do it, but I've been flamed numerous time for trimming and top posting, which accomplishes the same thing. > Personally I love to do it, but I've been flamed numerous time for trimming > and top posting, which accomplishes the same thing. Top posting, yes. Trimming? Tell them to pound sand. > > Personally I love to do it, but I've been flamed numerous time for > trimming [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Tell them to pound sand. Exactly. Top-posting is evil, but every man should love good trim. Nothing wrong with top posting. > > "Sheldon" <shel...@XXXXXXXXsopris.net> wrote in message > > Exactly. Top-posting is evil, but every man should love good trim. > Nothing wrong with top posting. It makes baby Jesus cry when people top post snip trimming on the other hand is god way of reducing bandwidth bummer for him > It makes baby Jesus cry when people top post > It makes baby Jesus cry when people top post Like I should care whether some lawn service worker's kid is crying? >> It makes baby Jesus cry when people top post > Like I should care whether some lawn service worker's kid is crying? I think there's a clause in Greg's contract with his illegal worker law service not to say or do things that make his gardener's welfare children cry. Lee >> It makes baby Jesus cry when people top post > > Like I should care whether some lawn service worker's kid is crying? O.M.F...? :-) >> Anyone ever teach you guys how to trim a post, so that people wont get >> sick [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Personally I love to do it, but I've been flamed numerous time for trimming >and top posting, which accomplishes the same thing. Maybe because you only learned half the lesson? http://web.newsguy.com/Frites/repl.htm http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html  SignatureRon (user ron in domain spamblocked.com) > Personally I love to do it, but I've been flamed numerous time for > trimming and top posting, which accomplishes the same thing. f.ck 'Em. Just don't trim context like you're from Ontario. Note my perfect and pristine posts as an example. > Anyone ever teach you guys how to trim a post, so that people wont get > sick > of wading through 300 lines of already read bullshit to get to your point, > whatever it was? When I do trim I put in a "snip" to let people know I have > > Anyone ever teach you guys how to trim a post, so that people wont get > > sick > > of wading through 300 lines of already read bullshit to get to your point, > > whatever it was? > > When I do trim I put in a "snip" to let people know I have What else would they think happened to the missing words, termites ate them? >> > Anyone ever teach you guys how to trim a post, so that people wont get >> > sick [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > What else would they think happened to the missing words, termites ate > them? buggered if I know but it is polite behaviour, particularly if you only snip some of the post leaving what you are replying to in. Allows people who are new to the post that the thread has been going on for ages and they don't have all the info >>>>Anyone ever teach you guys how to trim a post, so that people wont get >>>>sick [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > new to the post that the thread has been going on for ages and they don't > have all the info But Greg is an attorney by trade. He doesn't think that giving all the information is a good idea. Signature“TAANSTAFL” ____________________________________________________________________________ "A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for them; The simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences." - Proverbs 22:3 ____________________________________________________________________________ On Apr 1, 8:05 pm, dazed and confuzzed <dedmann@comcast_remove.net> wrote: > >>>"Scott" <pugetsounddi...@gmail.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > But Greg is an attorney by trade. He doesn't think that giving all the > information is a good idea. Nor do I believe in being polite, unless there's a judge to sanction me otherwise. Still, I do believe in having a newsreader that displays threaded posts in a tree format so it's easy to go back to earlier posts if it's unclear what a reply references. Being too lazy too look back is like being an ostrich too lazy to lift its head out of the sand to see whether its being buggered by an emu or by a Kiwi. The emu is more likely to be able to successfully complete the necessary passport application. > Still, I do believe in having a newsreader that displays threaded > posts in a tree format so it's easy to go back to earlier posts if > it's unclear what a reply references. I tend to be partial to at least a bit of snipping to indicate the points of the previoius post to which you are replying... Personally, I don't like the threaded format for postings... I prefer them in sequential order... Works well enough for me except when some people have their PC's clocks set wrong... > > Anyone ever teach you guys how to trim a post, so that people wont get > > sick > > of wading through 300 lines of already read bullshit to get to your point, > > whatever it was? > > When I do trim I put in a "snip" to let people know I have So... you're circumcised? (snip)> fun. Just like to know what to expect before I "dive" in. BTW, "Diver > Down" is actually a good book. Can't believe how dumb some people are, and > it's a book filled with people making really dumb mistakes you can learn > from. So poorly written though, I had a very hard time staying with it. > (snip)> fun. Just like to know what to expect before I "dive" in. BTW, > "Diver [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > So poorly written though, I had a very hard time staying with it. Sorry, Sheldon, I got my books mixed up. Diver Down was the book I was going to recommend to you, not the one that was poorly written . . so nevermind. :^) > At least you've knocked the fear out of the > certification process for me My daughter's 12... She's going to start her certification classes in a couple of weeks... She's reading the SSI textbook first... Surely you aren't going to be outdone by a 12 year old female, right? > My daughter's 12... She's going to start her certification classes in > a couple of weeks... She's reading the SSI textbook first... Surely > you aren't going to be outdone by a 12 year old female, right? My how our approach changes when it's our kids involved. 8^) A 12 year old Shelly can hardly be compared to normal people. The Shelly clan is clearly infused with a spirit of adventure and a distinct lack of fear. Lee > > My daughter's 12... She's going to start her certification classes in > > a couple of weeks... She's reading the SSI textbook first... Surely [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > clan is clearly infused with a spirit of adventure and a distinct lack of > fear. Actually, her dad is simply batshit nuts. In spite of that, she is a great kid. I have pictures of her with our Akita's after she hung Mardi Gras beads on them (the dogs are *very* child tolerant). > Actually, her dad is simply batshit nuts. Actually, I've mellowed out quite a bit in my old age... You should have met me back in the days when I *knew* that I was invulnerable... Grumman-581 <grumman581@DIE-SPAMMER-SCUM-gmail.com> muttered: > Actually, I've mellowed out quite a bit in my old age... You > should have met me back in the days when I *knew* that I was > invulnerable... You still would have chickened out and not brought your Baretta with you to Toronto even then, Mikey. SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com "Lee Bell" <pleebell@bellsouth.net> muttered: > The Shelly > clan is clearly infused with a spirit of adventure and a > distinct lack of fear. Mikey's trip to Toronto falsifies that claim. He was too frightened of the Canadian Border Agency to bring his gun. SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com > A 12 year old Shelly can hardly be compared to normal people. The Shelly > clan is clearly infused with a spirit of adventure and a distinct lack of > fear. I suspect the lack of fear is due to her age... Same reason that old motorcross racers don't do as well as young ones... The old ones realize what can go wrong and the pain that result from it and as such back off a bit / don't take the same chances... On Apr 1, 12:31 pm, Grumman-581 <grumman...@DIE-SPAMMER-SCUM- gmail.com> wrote: > > A 12 year old Shelly can hardly be compared to normal people. The Shelly > > clan is clearly infused with a spirit of adventure and a distinct lack of [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > realize what can go wrong and the pain that result from it and as such > back off a bit / don't take the same chances... That's why they let us drink starting at age 21, so we can still do stupid things as well or better than the dumb kids we used to be. > That's why they let us drink starting at age 21, so we can still do > stupid things as well or better than the dumb kids we used to be. Obviously that's why we raised it from 18 to 21... We figured that the 18-20 year olds didn't need the extra advantage... > I suspect the lack of fear is due to her age... Same reason that old > motorcross racers don't do as well as young ones... The old ones > realize what can go wrong and the pain that result from it and as such > back off a bit / don't take the same chances... Old motocrossers never die. They get scared shitless, often turning to formula racing instead. Whether bikes or open-wheel cars, their knowledge of lines and their ability to bring the back end around makes them invaluable leaders in their field. Now, as soon as they realize that formula racing of any kind is pretty dangerous in itself, they find themselves in closed cars, either SSCA or NASCAR. When they realize that these sports can still kill them, the lucky ones buy cars and race teams and enjoy the sport from the pits well into old age. I would guess than any older divers who have been scared to death one too many times might buy a boat and pass their knowledge on to novice divers who rent their services. "Sheldon" <sheldon@XXXXXXXXsopris.net> muttered: > I would guess than any older divers who have been scared to > death one too many times might buy a boat and pass their > knowledge on to novice divers who rent their services. Nah, the narcosis fries their brains and makes them forget. SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com > Old motocrossers never die. They're pussies. Enduro riders rule, well I did until I flipped the bike and broke my back. At that point, I decided to do something safer, so I started drag racing big bores. No car will ever feel fast again. > I would guess than any older divers who have been scared to death one too > many times might buy a boat and pass their knowledge on to novice divers > who rent their services. We do buy boats, at least some of us do, but we don't like you young guys enough to take you out on them. Lee > > Old motocrossers never die. > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Lee We always figgered enduro riders were just wannabe m-xers who really didn't like the big jumps and the crowded corners. JF >> At least you've knocked the fear out of the >> certification process for me > > My daughter's 12... She's going to start her certification classes in > a couple of weeks... She's reading the SSI textbook first... Surely > you aren't going to be outdone by a 12 year old female, right? Well, some kids are really good at absorbing info and spitting it back out on demand. That wasn't my strong point when I was in school. I did come up with a lot of common sense answers when I was in school, but not exactly what the teacher was looking for. I remember a question in history class, "What do the following men have in common?," followed by a list of people such as George Washington, etc. I answered they were all dead. I fought for credit and got it, (after all, it is true) but once again not exactly what my instructor was looking for. :-) >> At least you've knocked the fear out of the >> certification process for me > > My daughter's 12... She's going to start her certification classes in > a couple of weeks... snip When I started diving many years ago there was concern about osteoporosis developing in kids who started diving early, have you heard the latest on this or has this disappeared with horseshoe BCs. PS didn't stop my daughter learning to dive at 14 > When I started diving many years ago there was concern about osteoporosis > developing in kids who started diving early, have you heard the latest on > this or has this disappeared with horseshoe BCs. Horseshoe or Horsecollar BCs? I guess you could call most typical backplate and wings type of setup 'horseshoe'... With regards to the tradional horsecollar BC, they are still a couple of companies that make them... >> When I started diving many years ago there was concern about osteoporosis >> developing in kids who started diving early, have you heard the latest on [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > tradional horsecollar BC, they are still a couple of companies that > make them... Horsecollar > Horsecollar http://www.aqualung.com/military/PDF_Data_Sheets/Swimmers%20Vests%20and%20BC%27s /Calypso%20BC.pdf http://www.divers-supply.com/HORSE-COLLAR-p/dur12104.htm http://www.amronintl.com/diving/products.cfm?id=4159 Of course, if you're going to go the horsecollar BC route, you really should choose the proper regulator to go with it... http://www.aqualung.com/products/mistral.html See? You can't go wrong with the classics... >> Horsecollar > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > See? You can't go wrong with the classics... I only got one of those because they wouldn't let me dive without a BC off diveboats. Nobody used to worry > I only got one of those because they wouldn't let me dive without a BC off > diveboats. Nobody used to worry If you're going to be stuck afloat out at sea and your boat has gone off without you, I can see a definite advantage to the horsecollar type BCs... Probably makes it easier to sleep while waiting for rescue than with a back inflation type... <grin> I suspect that most people have more inflation capability in their BCs than they really need and a horsecollar BC would be more than sufficient for most folks... I keep thinking that it might be interesting to try a sidemount type rig with a horsecollar BC... Maybe modify the horsecollar so that instead of the straps that it normall has, it has snap bolts that clip onto your harness? >> I only got one of those because they wouldn't let me dive without a BC >> off [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > instead of the straps that it normall has, it has snap bolts that clip > onto your harness? Sorry are we talking about the same thing? I'm talking mid 70's first style BCDs, maybe I have the wrong name but those things that draped around your neck > Sorry are we talking about the same thing? I'm talking mid 70's first style > BCDs, maybe I have the wrong name but those things that draped around your > neck Nope, we're talking about the same thing... They're made a bit better these days though... 1000 denier outer covering over a bladder, just like the wings that we attach to our backplates... Same type of inflator hoses and dump valves that we use these days also... Seatec still makes one -- the Sunfish... Aqualung also, but I believe that they only sell it to the military... The thing about the horsecollar BCs is that they were designed in the days when you started out properly weighted and as such, optimally, you should only need to use your BC for surface flotation after the dive... One could argue that if you were wanting to create a truly minimal rig then a new style horsecollar BC might be worth considering... >> Sorry are we talking about the same thing? I'm talking mid 70's first >> style [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > like the wings that we attach to our backplates... Same type of > inflator hoses and dump valves that we use these days also... cool only seen these things for snorkellers these days snip > cool only seen these things for snorkellers these days The ones that you see for snorkelers are of considerably lesser quality... These are not cheaply made... With a 1000 denier Cordura covering, they will seem to be very similar to the current wings that you buy for your backplate... The buoyancy characteristics are probably a bit different than a typical wing, but whether that is good or bad is probably dependent upon the diver in question... Personally, I don't think that they can be as totally dismissed as some people might like us to believe... > The thing about the horsecollar BCs is that they were designed in the > days when you started out properly weighted and as such, optimally, > you should only need to use your BC for surface flotation after the > dive... You forgot to mention that the quality ones all had CO2 backup inflation devices. > One could argue that if you were wanting to create a truly > minimal rig then a new style horsecollar BC might be worth > considering... Next time you're around and I'm using it, you need to take a look at my 18 lb lift Halcyon "Bat Wing." It's a horseshoe shaped wing that makes the old horse collar type look downright draggy. Lee > You forgot to mention that the quality ones all had CO2 backup inflation > devices. The Aqualung one has two CO2 cylinders... The old Aqualung BC that I had *many* years ago only had one... Never had to use it though... >>You forgot to mention that the quality ones all had CO2 backup inflation >>devices. > > The Aqualung one has two CO2 cylinders... The old Aqualung BC that I > had *many* years ago only had one... Never had to use it though... Questionable safety device, though. All the old jacket BCs had em and the first thing ya had to do when ya bought one was remove the CO2 cartridge. > The thing about the horsecollar BCs is that they were designed in the > days when you started out properly weighted and as such, optimally, > you should only need to use your BC for surface flotation after the > dive... How did divers manage buoyancy in the pre-BC days? It would seem difficult, given wetsuit compression at depth and increasing buoyancy as the cylinder empties. Did you start the dive negative, with the goal of being neutral near the surface at the end? Or positive, hoping to be neutral at the bottom mid way into the dive? I remember divers damning the new-fangled aluminum cylinders as "floaters" back in the day. >> The thing about the horsecollar BCs is that they were designed in the >> days when you started out properly weighted and as such, optimally, [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > neutral at the bottom mid way into the dive? I remember divers damning > the new-fangled aluminum cylinders as "floaters" back in the day. I always found breaking the surface to get under a bit of a hassle but once under I basically used lung volume to control buoyancy >>>The thing about the horsecollar BCs is that they were designed in the >>>days when you started out properly weighted and as such, optimally, [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > I always found breaking the surface to get under a bit of a hassle but once > under I basically used lung volume to control buoyancy That's about it. Ya had to have the skill to get yer buoyancy right to begin with, and the tank only gave a few pounds negative at the beginning of the dive. And pre-BC was also pre-neoprene. The old rubber sheet wetsuits didn't compress. > And pre-BC was also pre-neoprene. The old rubber sheet wetsuits didn't > compress. Well, that plus the fact that we were younger back then and wouldn't admit that we got cold diving without a wetsuit... <grin> > How did divers manage buoyancy in the pre-BC days? It would seem > difficult, given wetsuit compression at depth and increasing buoyancy as > the cylinder empties. Did you start the dive negative, with the goal of > being neutral near the surface at the end? Or positive, hoping to be > neutral at the bottom mid way into the dive? I remember divers damning > the new-fangled aluminum cylinders as "floaters" back in the day. Warm water divers, those wearing no wetsuits, etc. started by getting their weight just right, right smack in the middle between what is perfect at the beginning of the dive and what is perfect at the end of it. Then handled the difference by changing breathing patterns. No matter that some thing it's not possible, lots of us still do that. When diving with a wetsuit, we wore enough weight to compensate for its buoyancy near the surface and kept off the bottom by finning once the wetsuit compressed. Needless to say, many of us tended to do without wetsuits, or do with as minimal a wetsuit as possible. My first few wetsuits were all short sleeve beavertail tops and were all relatively thin. I kept my torso reasonably warm and let the extremities get cold. Once it got too cold for no, or minimal thermal protection. we tended to stay out of the water. I dove without a buoyancy compensator of any kind from 1962 to 1991. I bought, and used my first one when my then new wife got certified. I got my first octopus at the same time. My first try with a BCD was quite amusing. I jumped into the lake behind the house, figuring it had to be easy. I forgot that my weight was set for salt water and, as you might imagine, I sank like a rock. No problem, says I, I'll just add air until I stop sinking. So I did. Problem is, I didn't stop sinking until I'd added enough gas to start a somewhat unplanned ascent. So I dumped everything and started over. To this day, my wife smiles when she thinks of her oh so smart husband doing what we now refer to as my yoyo dive. I've gotten a bit better since them. Lee > Of course, if you're going to go the horsecollar BC route, you really > should choose the proper regulator to go with it... > > http://www.aqualung.com/products/mistral.html > > See? You can't go wrong with the classics... Can't say that I like the apparent design of that much, It looks like the attachment of the exhaust hose between the regulator and the diver's head would significantly decrease the clearance there and clearance at that point is already an issue for some divers. Were they to do the same thing with a vertical barrel style regulator, I think I might give one a try. Lee > Can't say that I like the apparent design of that much, It looks like the > attachment of the exhaust hose between the regulator and the diver's head > would significantly decrease the clearance there and clearance at that point > is already an issue for some divers. Hmmm... Interesting... I hadn't noticed that aspect of it... Kind of a small photo and I guess I can blame my old fart eyes... > Were they to do the same thing with a vertical barrel style regulator, > I think I might give one a try. I checked on the price of it... Around $600 online... Not exactly cheap considering the fact that you're probably either limited to a single tank or a manifold that has a center yoke mount... >> Horsecollar > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > See? You can't go wrong with the classics... Geeez, I was doing some basement cleaning yesterday and came across my original "horse collar" BC. Can still remember trying to pucker my lips up enough to inflate it a bit in cold water. Still has a CO2 cartridge in it for emergency inflation. Wish that made me a "classic" too. Dan |
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