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Scuba Forum / General / March 2007Argon for Drysuit
Seems a lot of Drysuit divers are going to Argon for suit inflation as it keep you much warmer than air. Any of you coldwater divers using it, and if so, how much difference did it make? Have been told some divers could use a thinner undergarment with it, and therefore less weight.... Thanks, Dan > Seems a lot of Drysuit divers are going to Argon for suit inflation as it > keep you much warmer than air. Any of you [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Thanks, Dan I haven't done enough drysuit dives to offer an informed opinion, but it seems to make a difference to me, and the guys at my diveshop swear by the difference. > Seems a lot of Drysuit divers are going to Argon for suit inflation as it > keep you much warmer than air. Any of you > coldwater divers using it, and if so, how much difference > did it make? Have been told some divers could use a thinner > undergarment with it, and therefore less weight.... It does make a difference. The next time you do an easy dive with someone using argon, have him disconnect and give you a shot when you are feeling a bit chilled. It makes a much bigger difference if you have helium in your back gas. > Seems a lot of Drysuit divers are going to Argon for suit inflation as it > keep you much warmer than air. Any of you [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Thanks, Dan I have tried it in my drysuit and it is noticeably warmer. However, I am not going to go to the extra expense and trouble of another tank simply to inflate my drysuit. Thus far, I have not felt inclined to go in the water that was so cold I needed that extra amount of warmth. > Seems a lot of Drysuit divers are going to Argon for suit inflation as it > keep you much warmer than air. Any of you > coldwater divers using it, and if so, how much difference > did it make? Have been told some divers could use a thinner > undergarment with it, and therefore less weight.... I use it. I think it helps, though I won't say I'm "much warmer" with argon over air or nitrox. It is a necessity if you have much helium in your primary supply, though. For open water recreational dives, I use a 6cf bottle mounted upside down to the side of my backplate for drysuit inflation.  SignatureArt Greenberg artg at eclipse dot net > Seems a lot of Drysuit divers are going to Argon for suit inflation as it > keep you much warmer than air. Any of you > coldwater divers using it, and if so, how much difference > did it make? Have been told some divers could use a thinner > undergarment with it, and therefore less weight.... If you're breathing a helium mix, it might make a big difference. Helium isn't a real good insulator. The effectiveness of the drysuit is reduced by using a mix to inflate it, making it a good idea to use something else. Argon is a better "something else" than air. Lee >> Seems a lot of Drysuit divers are going to Argon for suit inflation as it >> keep you much warmer than air. Any of you [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Lee Thanks for the info. I do understand that Argon is a better insulator than air/nitrox which is all I use. I did wonder about the dilution of the argon with the residual air in the suit, even though I squeeze out as much of that as possible before going down. There is a LDS here that is running a promo on an argon setup with 6cf, first stage w/ SPG and a quick disconnect "clip" that mounts to your main tank. They recommend using a DIN 1st stage rather than yoke to keep it as compact as possible--and less to snag I suspect. Thanks, Dan > >> Seems a lot of Drysuit divers are going to Argon for suit inflation as it > >> keep you much warmer than air. Any of you [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > possible--and less to snag I suspect. > Thanks, Dan http://dspace.mclibrary.duke.edu/bitstream/2193/1274/1/12067149.pdf have a nice reading and don't waste your money on argon. On Mar 21, 2:38 pm, "janus...@hotmail.com" <janus...@hotmail.com> wrote: > http://dspace.mclibrary.duke.edu/bitstream/2193/1274/1/12067149.pdf > have a nice reading and don't waste your money on argon.- After a quick read it looks like this test only used air as an alternative. Aren't the majority of technical divers today likely to be using helium? The same test with mix might have different results. JF > On Mar 21, 2:38 pm, "janus...@hotmail.com" <janus...@hotmail.com> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > alternative. Aren't the majority of technical divers today likely to > be using helium? Yes, they do, but only as a breathing mixes. Nobody uses helium to inflate drysuit due to the fact that its thermal conductivity is 6 times greater than air. Argon''s is 67% of air and that is why it is considered as better insulation, but in real dive condition as showed by the test the difference is marginal if any. IMHO argon has typical placebo effect - if you pay more it has to be better. > The same test with mix might have different results. No doubt, but air and argon are considered the best choices for drysuit inflation. Janusz On Mar 22, 4:43 pm, "janus...@hotmail.com" <janus...@hotmail.com> wrote: > On 21 Mar, 21:26, "JOF" <jofran...@gmail.com> wrote:> On Mar 21, 2:38 pm, "janus...@hotmail.com" <janus...@hotmail.com> > > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > No doubt, but air and argon are considered the best choices for > drysuit inflation. I get what you're saying. Perhaps the placebo effect alone makes it worthwhile then? JF > On Mar 22, 4:43 pm, "janus...@hotmail.com" <janus...@hotmail.com> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > I get what you're saying. Perhaps the placebo effect alone makes it > worthwhile then? Maybe ;-)) Personally I would rather prefer electrical heating. Janusz > > On Mar 22, 4:43 pm, "janus...@hotmail.com" <janus...@hotmail.com> > > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > Janusz at least until the suit leaked. > at least until the suit leaked. Actually, there was a company that made an electrical heater for wetsuits... The thermal pad was very waterproof so it wouldn't short out and it could run off of the canister battery pack that is used for lights... There were units for the chest and the back and you could run both if you were in water cool enough to require it... The extremities were not heated, but if you can keep the core body temperature warm, the arms and legs will stay warmer also... If I remember correctly, it didn't have a thermostat on it, rather just an on-off switch... On 23 Mar, 02:00, Grumman-581 <grumman...@DIE-SPAMMER-SCUM-gmail.com> wrote: > > at least until the suit leaked. > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > arms and legs will stay warmer also... If I remember correctly, it > didn't have a thermostat on it, rather just an on-off switch... thermostat is not required as the heating elements are self regulating. The problem exists only in homemade stuff where some guys got heatburns. Some companies like Fa&Mi offers also electrical globes and socks, so extremities can be heated as well. Janusz > thermostat is not required as the heating elements are self > regulating. The problem exists only in homemade stuff where some guys > got heatburns. Some companies like Fa&Mi offers also electrical globes > and socks, so extremities can be heated as well. Electrical "globes"? Is that where I put my little rounds things in? They sure do hate being exposed to cold water... On 26 Mar, 12:27, Grumman-581 <grumman...@DIE-SPAMMER-SCUM-gmail.com> wrote: > On 24 Mar 2007 04:14:24 -0700, "janus...@hotmail.com" > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Electrical "globes"? Is that where I put my little rounds things in? > They sure do hate being exposed to cold water... No, it isn't electrical hood. ;-)))) Janusz P.S. You know "B" and "V" as so close on the keyboard. It should be gloves. > No, it isn't electrical hood. ;-)))) No, that would be my big round thing, not my little round things... The big round thing doesn't shrink in cold water... The little ones do... On 27 Mar, 10:54, Grumman-581 <grumman...@DIE-SPAMMER-SCUM-gmail.com> wrote: > janus...@hotmail.com wrote: > > No, it isn't electrical hood. ;-)))) > > No, that would be my big round thing, not my little round things... The > big round thing doesn't shrink in cold water... The little ones do... I knew from the very beginning what you meant, but gave you the chance not to tell everybody http://smallballs.funnypart.com/ ;-(((( BTW even they don't shrink it is cremaster muscle which pulls them up. Janusz http://smallballs.funnypart.com/ Good one... > BTW even they don't shrink it is cremaster muscle which pulls them > up. Call it what you will, they're more difficult to find after hitting cold water ! OK, technically, I should be able to deduce that the two new lumps in my throat are probably where they retreated to... On 27 Mar, 23:23, Grumman-581 <grumman...@DIE-SPAMMER-SCUM-gmail.com> wrote: > On 27 Mar 2007 12:51:06 -0700, "janus...@hotmail.com" > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > cold water ! OK, technically, I should be able to deduce that the two > new lumps in my throat are probably where they retreated to... LOL Be careful with coughing. Janusz >http://smallballs.funnypart.com/ > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >cold water ! OK, technically, I should be able to deduce that the two >new lumps in my throat are probably where they retreated to... Guy to gal: Is the water cold or are you just happy to see me? Gal to guy: Is the water cold or are you not happy to see me? Signaturedillon The pen may be mightier than the sword, but I've never seen a .sig beat a Sig. > >On 27 Mar 2007 12:51:06 -0700, "janus...@hotmail.com" > ><janus...@hotmail.com> wrote: > > >http://smallballs.funnypart.com/ > > >Good one... > >> BTW even they don't shrink it is cremaster muscle which pulls them > >> up. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > :-)))))) -- > dillon > > The pen may be mightier than the sword, but I've never > seen a .sig beat a Sig. >> thermostat is not required as the heating elements are self >> regulating. The problem exists only in homemade stuff where some guys [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Electrical "globes"? Is that where I put my little rounds things in? >They sure do hate being exposed to cold water... You'd mix electricity and water with "the boyz"? Signaturedillon The pen may be mightier than the sword, but I've never seen a .sig beat a Sig. > >On 24 Mar 2007 04:14:24 -0700, "janus...@hotmail.com" > ><janus...@hotmail.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > You'd mix electricity and water with "the boyz"? It's the best way to make lightning ball ;-) Janusz On Mar 29, 1:54 pm, "janus...@hotmail.com" <janus...@hotmail.com> wrote: > > >On 24 Mar 2007 04:14:24 -0700, "janus...@hotmail.com" > > ><janus...@hotmail.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > It's the best way to make lightning ball ;-) Great balls of fire! > <janus...@hotmail.com> wrote in messagenews:1174597864.996761.75510@y66g2000hsf.googlegroups.com... > > > On Mar 22, 4:43 pm, "janus...@hotmail.com" <janus...@hotmail.com> [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > > at least until the suit leaked. Don't worry even in the worst scenario 12V is not going to harm you. Janusz Heating pads can increase the risk of a skin bend. Not very comfortable and often miskaken for a burn. Did you know there are grades of argon? Argon is often blended with oxygen when sold for welding purposes. Do you know what you are really buying? John > Heating pads can increase the risk of a skin bend. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > John Generally, welding gasses show the contents on the label. In my barn I have (for welding): 100% argon 75% argon and 25% co2 (AKA C25) 50% argon 25% co2 and 25% helium All are labeled from the gas supplier. Each has it's purpose. It isn't that hard to get what you want. Signature“TAANSTAFL” ____________________________________________________________________________ "A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for them; The simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences." - Proverbs 22:3 ____________________________________________________________________________ > Heating pads can increase the risk of a skin bend. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > John Welding shop suppliers (in US anyway) have pure Argon, and also "Stargon" which is a mix. Dan > Did you know there are grades of argon? Argon is often blended with oxygen > when sold for welding purposes. Do you know what you are really buying? Just curious - what is argon with oxygen in it used for? Argon is a shield gas in the processes I'm familiar with. I've never seen anything but pure argon. >> Did you know there are grades of argon? Argon is often blended with >> oxygen [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > shield gas in the processes I'm familiar with. I've never seen anything > but pure argon. I don't know what argon/oxygen would be for. Argon/co2 is used in lots of applications tho. Dan I stated O2 but I was corrected CO2. My point was there are blends >> Did you know there are grades of argon? Argon is often blended with >> oxygen [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > shield gas in the processes I'm familiar with. I've never seen anything > but pure argon. > I stated O2 but I was corrected CO2. Both gases are used in shielding mixes > My point was there are blends Anyway if it is sold under the name of argon it is almost 100% pure. FYI CO2 is even better insulator than argon. Janusz > I stated O2 but I was corrected CO2. My point was there are blends Thanks, that makes sense. > In article <wV9Nh.6$5o...@newsfe12.lga>, jcass...@optonline.net says... > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > shield gas in the processes I'm familiar with. I've never seen anything > but pure argon. There are many different mixes, which are used for different processes and different alloys. In Europe they are standardized according to EN 439. You can also check faithful wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_metal_arc_welding Janusz > Just curious - what is argon with oxygen in it used for? Argon is a > shield gas in the processes I'm familiar with. I've never seen anything > but pure argon. to get a good "narc" at swimming pool depths maybe? > to get a good "narc" at swimming pool depths maybe? Actually, I've heard of divers and shops up here who advocate putting some air or O2 in their argon "just in case someone breathes it by mistake" >> to get a good "narc" at swimming pool depths maybe? > Actually, I've heard of divers and shops up here who advocate putting > some air or O2 in their argon "just in case someone breathes it by > mistake" Heard about the same once for Balloon Helium also, about 15%, but never found it verified. > Heard about the same once for Balloon Helium also, about 15%, but never > found it verified. One of the techs where I work was doing a balloon test for a new cell phone tower, and bought a disposable LP container of helium from Party Box. It didn't float the big balloon well, and I put my O2 analyzer on it and it came up 16%. After that, we always get a cylinder of helium from a regular gas supplier. My gas supplier tells me his balloon helium is just helium without the analysis or special handling. Another thing you have to watch is commercial divers helium - it is 2% O2. Before you ask, the balloon test is used to do a photo simulation of a proposed tower. If the tower is going to be 150', we send up a balloon to that height on a day when it isn't windy. We then take photographs from different places and directions, usually specified by the township. Knowing the size and height of the balloon, I can use it to Photoshop in a tower so they can see what it will look like. > Before you ask, the balloon test is used to do a photo simulation of a > proposed tower. If the tower is going to be 150', we send up a balloon > to that height on a day when it isn't windy. We then take photographs > from different places and directions, usually specified by the township. > Knowing the size and height of the balloon, I can use it to Photoshop in > a tower so they can see what it will look like. Tsk, tsk... Grown men playing with balloons... On 26 Mar, 03:36, Grumman-581 <grumman...@DIE-SPAMMER-SCUM-gmail.com> wrote: > > Before you ask, the balloon test is used to do a photo simulation of a > > proposed tower. If the tower is going to be 150', we send up a balloon [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Tsk, tsk... Grown men playing with balloons... and being paid for it ! Janusz >> to get a good "narc" at swimming pool depths maybe? > > Actually, I've heard of divers and shops up here who advocate putting > some air or O2 in their argon "just in case someone breathes it by > mistake" I've heard that before. > In article <ryDNh.10581$f56.1...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>, > "\"Magilla\"" <cavey_curtis@$$ yahoo.com> says... [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > some air or O2 in their argon "just in case someone breathes it by > mistake" by mistake? How could it be technically possible? Janusz > to get a good "narc" at swimming pool depths maybe? FINALLY, someone clear on the concept !!! On 26 Mar, 03:33, Grumman-581 <grumman...@DIE-SPAMMER-SCUM-gmail.com> wrote: > > to get a good "narc" at swimming pool depths maybe? > > FINALLY, someone clear on the concept !!! For this purpose you can find better gases ;-) Janusz > > Just curious - what is argon with oxygen in it used for? Argon is a > > shield gas in the processes I'm familiar with. I've never seen anything > > but pure argon. > > to get a good "narc" at swimming pool depths maybe? It should be really deep swimming pool. Janusz P.S. read something about argox > Heating pads can increase the risk of a skin bend. ???? cite, please > Not very comfortable and often miskaken for a burn. > > Did you know there are grades of argon? Argon is often blended with oxygen > when sold for welding purposes. Do you know what you are really buying? Every time Janusz >On Mar 22, 4:43 pm, "janus...@hotmail.com" <janus...@hotmail.com> >wrote: [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > >JF John, I'm mailing you some dynamite grass. Just trust me, it's that good. :-) Signaturedillon The pen may be mightier than the sword, but I've never seen a .sig beat a Sig. On Mar 27, 10:39 pm, Dillon Pyron <dmpyronINVA...@austin.rr.com> wrote: > >On Mar 22, 4:43 pm, "janus...@hotmail.com" <janus...@hotmail.com> > >wrote: [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > John, I'm mailing you some dynamite grass. Just trust me, it's that > good. :-) Emailing it? JF >> >> Seems a lot of Drysuit divers are going to Argon for suit inflation as >> >> it [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > http://dspace.mclibrary.duke.edu/bitstream/2193/1274/1/12067149.pdf > have a nice reading and don't waste your money on argon. Interesting. Don't know what a "wooley bear" is, but I wonder how it compares to either the thinsulate or holofil undergarments. Would they trap more gas--either argon or air, and therefore make more difference? Dan |
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