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Scuba Forum / General / March 2007

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Hey!  I finally figured it out, but ears hurt.

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Sheldon - 20 Mar 2007 18:04 GMT
I've been playing in the deep end of the pool trying to get down to the
bottom with poor results.  Most of you guys helped, but actually doing it
and talking about it are two different things.

I can go into a pike position and "drive" myself down there.  Problem is my
ears start to hurt, and without air I'm thinking more about getting back to
the surface to breathe than trying to clear my ears.

I can also go down feet first.  Just exhale and use your hands a bit to move
down.  At some point, not much over my head, I just start to drop.  I can
stop dropping by stopping my exhale and reach a point of neutral buoyancy
where I can go up or down without much effort.

I'm still working on the freestyle swimming, but this dropping down in deep
end is new to me and quite exciting.  Looking forward to doing this with a
tank on my back -- and learning how to clear my ears.  I have no trouble
flying, but my understanding is they pressurize a plane to 8000', which is
the altitude I live at.  A couple of swallows and I'm fine.  Tried holding
my nose and blowing a bit but no success.  I think I'm thinking too much
about getting back up.

My swim instructor said they have a rubber brick to help you get down there
(must be the Mafia method of diving), but who's going to go down and get it
when I let go to get back up? <BG>

Sheldon
Kari - 20 Mar 2007 19:09 GMT
> I've been playing in the deep end of the pool trying to get down to the
> bottom with poor results.  Most of you guys helped, but actually doing it
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>
> Sheldon

There's a video related to ear clearing at this website - it's kinda
long, but I thought it was very informative and describes several
techniques for clearing your ears, as well as providing a very clear
picture of what is actually going on inside your head when you do.

http://faculty.washington.edu/ekay/index.html

kari
Sheldon - 21 Mar 2007 04:01 GMT
>> I've been playing in the deep end of the pool trying to get down to the
>> bottom with poor results.  Most of you guys helped, but actually doing it
[quoted text clipped - 40 lines]
>
> kari

Thanks for the video.  Very informative, and should be helpful.
Lee Bell - 20 Mar 2007 19:51 GMT
> I can go into a pike position and "drive" myself down there.  Problem is
> my ears start to hurt, and without air I'm thinking more about getting
> back to the surface to breathe than trying to clear my ears.

Equalize slightly before you start down, then do it again before you're
actually in pain.

> I can also go down feet first.  Just exhale and use your hands a bit to
> move down.  At some point, not much over my head, I just start to drop.  I
> can stop dropping by stopping my exhale and reach a point of neutral
> buoyancy where I can go up or down without much effort.

No you can't.  Once you're negative, you don't get positive without taking
on some more gas or ascending to where you are no longer displacing water
weighing more than you do.  If you started your descent only by exhaling,
which most people can do, you can't stop it except by some form of kicking
or swimming.

> I'm still working on the freestyle swimming, but this dropping down in
> deep end is new to me and quite exciting.

Forget freestyle swimming.  It has nothing to do with diving.  If you want
to practice it, save it for later.

> Tried holding my nose and blowing a bit but no success.

You'll either learn or give up diving.  There is no third choice.

> My swim instructor said they have a rubber brick to help you get down
> there (must be the Mafia method of diving), but who's going to go down and
> get it when I let go to get back up? <BG>

You bring it back up with you.  If you can't do that, either learn quickly
or start thinking about learning a new sport.

Lee
Sheldon - 21 Mar 2007 04:20 GMT
>> I can go into a pike position and "drive" myself down there.  Problem is
>> my ears start to hurt, and without air I'm thinking more about getting
>> back to the surface to breathe than trying to clear my ears.
>
> Equalize slightly before you start down, then do it again before you're
> actually in pain.

Sounds like a plan, and was recommended in the video from the other poster.
Never thought about that.

>> I can also go down feet first.  Just exhale and use your hands a bit to
>> move down.  At some point, not much over my head, I just start to drop.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> which most people can do, you can't stop it except by some form of kicking
> or swimming.

Well, I can't inhale to go up, so I have to swim to the surface, but I do
seem to float there in one spot under the surface if I don't exhale more.
what can I say?  I can "swim" down a bit using my arms, but I don't really
drop unless I exhale more.  Even in a 14' pool, there seems to be a point
you go past where the resistance stops.

>> I'm still working on the freestyle swimming, but this dropping down in
>> deep end is new to me and quite exciting.
>
> Forget freestyle swimming.  It has nothing to do with diving.  If you want
> to practice it, save it for later.

I agree.  I am going to probably use a sidestroke for the test, but I still
want to learn freestyle, and it keeps me in the water and gives me something
to do till my diving class.  Remember, I hadn't been in a pool for many
years, and I'm much more comfortable in the water than I've ever been.

>> Tried holding my nose and blowing a bit but no success.
>
> You'll either learn or give up diving.  There is no third choice.

Agreed!  I think that video the other poster pointed me to will help, and
I'm seeing an ENT next week and will tell him I plan to dive.

>> My swim instructor said they have a rubber brick to help you get down
>> there (must be the Mafia method of diving), but who's going to go down
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Lee
I don't know what the test consists of, but I would feel a lot more
comfortable down there if I could breathe.  At least I've learned to exhale
and hold my breath, which I don't thing is a normal thing to do.  I'm
getting the impression that a lot of diving is overcoming fears and
reversing things you would normally do without any kind of training.  I'm
actually learning the hard way why you shouldn't just grab a tank and a
regulator and jump in without proper training.

Thanks
John Cassara - 21 Mar 2007 12:32 GMT
Sounds like you are having fun horsing around in the pool. This is good, get
comfortable in the water. But you are probably developing bad diving habits.
Dropping down as a diver is different. You will intentionally weight
yourself slightly negative so you do not have to work at getting down. If it
takes a lot of effort / energy just to drop you will use a lot of air doing
so. You will be a bit worked up once you reach depth and will continue to
use air at a higher rate, get cold faster and end the dive sooner as a
result. So for now play in the pool but don't try to develop any techniques
you think will help you learn to  dive, instead pick up the PADI course book
and review or get any one of many diving books from the library or a book
store.

John

>>> I can go into a pike position and "drive" myself down there.  Problem is
>>> my ears start to hurt, and without air I'm thinking more about getting
[quoted text clipped - 59 lines]
>
> Thanks
Sheldon - 24 Mar 2007 20:50 GMT
> Sounds like you are having fun horsing around in the pool. This is good,
> get comfortable in the water. But you are probably developing bad diving
[quoted text clipped - 73 lines]
>>
>> Thanks

Thanks.  I've been reading everything I can get my hands on, and haven't
been spending all my time trying to get to the bottom of the pool.  Just not
enough time for bad habits, and I'm sure my instructor will have ways to get
down there.  After all, that's what diving is all about.

After all the feedback I've received from you guys, I'm just trying to get
more comfortable in the water.  I am working on freestyle swimming to add it
to my own bag of tricks, but I also spend a lot of time doing laps with a
snorkel, mask and fins, or just a snorkel and mask.  Currently I feel very
comfortable being in the water for long periods of time and breathing
through the snorkel.  It's just good exercise.l

Sheldon
Lee Bell - 21 Mar 2007 13:15 GMT
>>> I can stop dropping by stopping my exhale and reach a point of neutral
>>> buoyancy where I can go up or down without much effort.

>> No you can't.  Once you're negative, you don't get positive without
>> taking on some more gas or ascending to where you are no longer
>> displacing water weighing more than you do.  If you started your descent
>> only by exhaling, which most people can do, you can't stop it except by
>> some form of kicking or swimming.

> Well, I can't inhale to go up, so I have to swim to the surface, but I do
> seem to float there in one spot under the surface if I don't exhale more.
> what can I say?

It's a bit of a fine point, but you don't get neutral by stopping exhaling.
Other factors are at work, including kicking, skulling, whatever.  It makes
little difference in this case, but is a significant part of understanding
buoyancy which, as you learn more, will hopefully become a significant part
of your diving.

> I can "swim" down a bit using my arms, but I don't really drop unless I
> exhale more.

Then you weren't dropping because you were exhaling in the first place.
Something that is negatively buoyant, as you would be if your descent was
entirely due to your exhaling, does not become less negative without
increasing volume.  What sinks, keeps on sinking.  You were probably never
actually neutral, let alone negative.  You were simply close enough to
neutral that little effort was required to descend.  When you stopped making
any effort, you stopped descending.  If you had stopped all movement, you
probably would have slowly returned to the surface.

> Even in a 14' pool, there seems to be a point you go past where the
> resistance stops.

Resistance to descending decreases for sure.  Your buoyancy is directly
related to the relationship of your mass to the mass of the liquid you
displace.  If your body displaces liquid weighing more than you do, you
float.  If it displaces liquid weighing less than you do, you sink.  If you
displace liquid weighing just what you do, you're neutral.  What happens as
you descend, assuming you do not exhale, is that the deeper you go, the more
the gas in your lungs is compressed.  As that gas compresses, your body
displaces less water but still weighs the same.  You become less buoyant or,
if you prefer, more negative.  It's easier to descend.  You may actually
reach a depth where you cease being buoyant and become negative.  From that
point and deeper, if you stop doing anything, you'll sink, and keep right on
sinking until you do something about it.  The reverse is true as you ascend.
All else being equal, the gas in your lungs expands, displacing more water,
making you more buoyant or less negative.

This is intersting now.  It will be important later.  Most divers experience
a larger shift in buoyancy while diving than you do just swimming around.
The gas in the lungs is less significant because you're breathing compressed
gas from a tank.  You replace the volume in your lungs with more gas.  The
deeper you go, the more that same volume of gas is compressed and the more
it weighs, creating a slight tendency to become less buoyant with depth, but
there are other factors that are more significant.  One of them is the gas
in your thermal protection.  Dry suits and wetsuits both depend on gas for
insulation.  That gas compresses with depth.  In a dry suit, you can replace
it, just as you do in your lungs.  With a wetsuit, you can experience a
significant buoyancy shift as you descend or ascend, significant enough to
become a problem if you don't plan for it.  Divers have died because they
didn't realize that the lift provided by their wetsuit would disappear at
depth.  They become negative enough that they could not ascend.  Generally,
divers use buoyancy compenators of some kind to offset things like this.
Nothing is perfect and buoyancy compensators have been known to fail,
rarely, but it only takes once.  In such failures, those that don't ensure
that they either have backup buoyancy or that they can swim themselves and
their gear to the surface, become statistics.

On ascent, opposite effects occur.  As the wetsuit, etc. expand, the diver
become more buoyant.  If that buoyancy becomes greater than your ability to
slow your ascent, you're also well on your way to becoming a statistic.
This too is rare, but most often results from a diver's failure to account
for the change in buoyancy due to use of the gas in the tank.  A standard 80
cubic foot tank holds about 5 lbs of gas at the beginning of the dive.  When
that tank is empty, which we hope it never is during the dive, it's 5 lbs
more buoyant than it was at the beginning of the dive.  If you don't weight
to offset that, you're in for a big, and very unpleasant, surprise when you
begin your ascent.

At any rate, all of this begins to show what I was talking about when I
indicated that the difference in what you said about your trip to the bottom
of the pool was not a significant error for freedivers, but can become a
significant error if continued into your dive training.

>> Forget freestyle swimming.  It has nothing to do with diving.  If you
>> want to practice it, save it for later.

> I agree.  I am going to probably use a sidestroke for the test, but I
> still want to learn freestyle, and it keeps me in the water and gives me
> something to do till my diving class.  Remember, I hadn't been in a pool
> for many years, and I'm much more comfortable in the water than I've ever
> been.

It will also improve your cardio vascual fitness and improve your breathing
efficiency, both of which are good things for those at high altitudes.  For
the first few days at your altitude, I can't even walk up stairs.  I'm
flatland born and raised.

>>> Tried holding my nose and blowing a bit but no success.
>
>> You'll either learn or give up diving.  There is no third choice.

> Agreed!  I think that video the other poster pointed me to will help, and
> I'm seeing an ENT next week and will tell him I plan to dive.

Not a bad plan.  Try to find one that dives himself.  Do a Google search on
"DAN" and contact them to see if there is one they recommend in your area.

> I don't know what the test consists of, but I would feel a lot more
> comfortable down there if I could breathe.

Probably, but not for sure.  Some people really have to work to overcome the
body's natural tendency to hold the breathe during a dive.

> At least I've learned to exhale and hold my breath . . .

Holding your breath while diving is a very bad thing.  You will probably
have to concentrate to learn not to do that.  Hints as to why are in my
prevoius discussion.  You'll learn more in your class.

> I'm getting the impression that a lot of diving is overcoming fears and
> reversing things you would normally do without any kind of training.

Call it developing new habits more suitable for the different environment.

> I'm  actually learning the hard way why you shouldn't just grab a tank and
> a regulator and jump in without proper training.

You're actually learning the easy way.  Those that learn the hard way are
called statistics.

Lee
Ron - 22 Mar 2007 04:06 GMT
>Divers have died because they
>didn't realize that the lift provided by their wetsuit would disappear at
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>that they either have backup buoyancy or that they can swim themselves and
>their gear to the surface, become statistics.

 Yeah, because in a majority of those statistical deaths, they never
dropped their weight belt.  You don't need a redundant BC, you
just have to do what you've (hopefully) been taught - drop weights.

Signature

Ron
(user ron
in domain spamblocked.com)

Paul Foley - 21 Mar 2007 23:40 GMT
> I've been playing in the deep end of the pool trying to get down to the
> bottom with poor results.  Most of you guys helped, but actually doing it
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> ears start to hurt, and without air I'm thinking more about getting back to
> the surface to breathe than trying to clear my ears.

Congratulations!  And don't worry too much about not being able to clear
your ears while doing this.  It's hard to equalize in a head down
position. It's a lot easier to do with scuba gear too... for one thing,
you can take your time!  I have never had any problems equalizing with
scuba, but doing it during a snorkel freedive is difficult.

Be careful, be kind to your ears... don't force it.  You can practice
equalizing out of the water, and it usually gets easier with practice.

> I can also go down feet first.  Just exhale and use your hands a bit to move
> down.

I've never heard of anyone diving on the exhale.  To each his own....
 
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