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Scuba Forum / General / March 2007

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Question about correct action

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Rod - 11 Mar 2007 04:45 GMT
I had an interesting situation on a dive in  last week. The location
probably isn't important. My buddy and I decided we would do a shore
dive. We rented a locker to stow our stuff and talked to the person in
the dive shop about the dive. We decided would go left if there was no
current, stay above 55 feet and turn to come back at 1500 PSI or 30
minutes. We headed out and found no current  so we went left. After 20
minutes the coral turned to flat pan of sand and dead staghorn coral.
We started accross it and noticed a slight current going in our
direction. We continued on and realized we were now in a full drift
situation. We turned and found with full kick we could stay where we
were, if we added full breast stroke, we could move against the
current a few feet at a time.

we were at 35 feet
we had been down 25 minutes
we did not know the area, other than as a "great" dive

What is the solution to the problem I am now in  ?

I found one, but I am not sure it was correct, versus lucky
dechucka - 11 Mar 2007 05:01 GMT
>I had an interesting situation on a dive in  last week. The location
> probably isn't important. My buddy and I decided we would do a shore
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> I found one, but I am not sure it was correct, versus lucky

you didn't have multiple exit points?
dechucka - 11 Mar 2007 05:02 GMT
>>I had an interesting situation on a dive in  last week. The location
>> probably isn't important. My buddy and I decided we would do a shore
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> you didn't have multiple exit points?

Sorry I should have added that your solution was lucky even if was correct
because you didn't plan the dive properly
Rod - 11 Mar 2007 05:40 GMT
>>>I had an interesting situation on a dive in  last week. The location
>>> probably isn't important. My buddy and I decided we would do a shore
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>Sorry I should have added that your solution was lucky even if was correct
>because you didn't plan the dive properly

I saw no need for multiple points, this was a recrational dive. I am
asking, " what is the correct, if there is one, action if you find
yourself in an outgoing rip.
dechucka - 11 Mar 2007 05:55 GMT
>>>>I had an interesting situation on a dive in  last week. The location
>>>> probably isn't important. My buddy and I decided we would do a shore
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> asking, " what is the correct, if there is one, action if you find
> yourself in an outgoing rip.

Sorry I did sound a bit high and mighty and full of myself. However even on
the simplest dive I would have multiple exit points or contingencies plans.
If it was an out going rip I would swim out with it till it weakened than
swam in parallel to it to the beach. If it was a long shore rip/current  I
would go with the flow till a suitable exit point was found. Bugger swimming
into the current you get tired and tired bodies don't lead to clear
thinking.
Douglas W "Popeye" Frederick - 13 Mar 2007 01:55 GMT
> Sorry I did sound a bit high and mighty and full of myself.

 We're used to it.

>However even on the simplest dive I would have multiple exit points or
>contingencies plans.

 Not me.

 Up.

 I plan to go up.

 It's always worked pretty good in the past.

> If it was an out going rip I would swim out with it till it weakened than
> swam in parallel to it to the beach. If it was a long shore rip/current  I
> would go with the flow till a suitable exit point was found. Bugger
> swimming into the current you get tired and tired bodies don't lead to
> clear thinking.
dechucka - 13 Mar 2007 03:00 GMT
>> Sorry I did sound a bit high and mighty and full of myself.
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
>  It's always worked pretty good in the past.

excellent, works for you but not for me once I'm surfaced I love to feel dry
land under my feet again.  I'll plan my dives and extra exit points
Lee Bell - 11 Mar 2007 12:46 GMT
> I saw no need for multiple points, this was a recrational dive. I am
> asking, " what is the correct, if there is one, action if you find
> yourself in an outgoing rip.

Then that's what you should have asked.

In a rip current, you do one of three things, depending on circumstances.
The recommended procedure is to swim, at a normal relaxed pace, diagonally
across the current until you are out of it, then swim in whatever direction
best suits your purpose.  Should that fail, you simply allow the current to
move you off shore until it diminishes, move away from the current and
return to shore.  Should that prove impossible, you signal for help as soon
as you know you're not going to be able to rescue yourself.

Lee
Danlw - 11 Mar 2007 05:47 GMT
>>>I had an interesting situation on a dive in  last week. The location
>>> probably isn't important. My buddy and I decided we would do a shore
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> Sorry I should have added that your solution was lucky even if was correct
> because you didn't plan the dive properly

Ya gotta love a country were everyone plans everything right the first time,
every time. In a country like that, there would never be anybody left out on
a reef after a dive.
dechucka - 11 Mar 2007 05:57 GMT
>>>>I had an interesting situation on a dive in  last week. The location
>>>> probably isn't important. My buddy and I decided we would do a shore
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> time, every time. In a country like that, there would never be anybody
> left out on a reef after a dive.

Only in Queensland and they are a bit strange.

Plan your dive and dive your plan and make sure you at least have a think
about what could go wrong and maybe have an idea or 2 what to do about them
dechucka - 11 Mar 2007 07:04 GMT
>>>>>I had an interesting situation on a dive in  last week. The location
>>>>> probably isn't important. My buddy and I decided we would do a shore
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
> about what could go wrong and maybe have an idea or 2 what to do about
> them

the 2 Americans should have planned to get on the boat quicker
Rod - 11 Mar 2007 13:26 GMT
>>>>>>I had an interesting situation on a dive in  last week. The location
>>>>>> probably isn't important. My buddy and I decided we would do a shore
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
>
>the 2 Americans should have planned to get on the boat quicker

There was no boat, it was a shore dive
dechucka - 11 Mar 2007 20:47 GMT
>>>>>>>I had an interesting situation on a dive in  last week. The location
>>>>>>> probably isn't important. My buddy and I decided we would do a shore
[quoted text clipped - 40 lines]
>>
> There was no boat, it was a shore dive

Dan was referring to an incident in Aus where 2 American diver on the GBR
got left behind and unfortunately drowned because of extremely slack
behaviour and procedures by a boat operator
Douglas W "Popeye" Frederick - 13 Mar 2007 01:57 GMT
> "dechucka" <dechucka@vomithotmail.com> wrote in message
>> Sorry I should have added that your solution was lucky even if was
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> time, every time. In a country like that, there would never be anybody
> left out on a reef after a dive.

 Oh.

 My.

 God.
bracuk@axxent.ca - 11 Mar 2007 06:22 GMT
> "dechucka" <dechu...@vomithotmail.com> wrote in message
> Sorry I should have added that your solution was lucky even if was correct
> because you didn't plan the dive properly

Tell us your plan then hotshot.  Remember, we are talking about a
current that starts during the dive.
dechucka - 11 Mar 2007 06:34 GMT
>> "dechucka" <dechu...@vomithotmail.com> wrote in message
>> Sorry I should have added that your solution was lucky even if was
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Tell us your plan then hotshot.  Remember, we are talking about a
> current that starts during the dive.

Easy MORON have multiple exit points, what if it wasn't a current that
caused the problem but maybe a medical problem even as simple as a cramp
that couldn't be cleared or gear failure ( although I can't think of one at
the moment which would stop you doing a surface swim back) good idea to
think if we get down there and can't get back what do we do.

Don't you actually think of things that may go wrong on a dive and plan for
them?
bracuk@axxent.ca - 11 Mar 2007 19:14 GMT
> Easy MORON have multiple exit points, what if it wasn't a current that
> caused the problem but maybe a medical problem even as simple as a cramp
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Don't you actually think of things that may go wrong on a dive and plan for
> them?

You display smugness as if it were a redeeming quality.  Tell us,
hotshot, how planning for multiple exit points enables you to deal
with a current that starts during the dive.
dechucka - 11 Mar 2007 20:48 GMT
>> Easy MORON have multiple exit points, what if it wasn't a current that
>> caused the problem but maybe a medical problem even as simple as a cramp
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> hotshot, how planning for multiple exit points enables you to deal
> with a current that starts during the dive.

Easily it give you somewhere to get out of the water if you cannot return to
your planned exit point
Lee Bell - 11 Mar 2007 12:57 GMT
> Tell us your plan then hotshot.  Remember, we are talking about a
> current that starts during the dive.

Maybe yes, maybe no.  He didn't tell us where he was and he didn't tell us
what the limits on his return were.  He also didn't tell us that the current
started during the dive, only that he encountered it during his dive.  As
described, the current could have been tidal, in which case it could have
been anticipated.  It could have been a rip current, as he later described
it, in which case, a little attention to things before the dive still would
have allowed him to anticipate it.  You can usually see rip currents from
shore.  It could have been flow out of a river or into or out of an inlet,
in which case, he still could have planned for it.  No matter what the
source, he could have talked to the dive shop he mentioned in his post about
currents and other characteristics common to the dive site.

In fact, the circumstances that would have allowed him to plan for the
current are more numerous than those that did not permit planning.

While not required to answer the question as asked, I don't think it's wrong
to mention the failure to plan well.  Recognition of one's mistakes is the
first step to doing a better job of avoiding problems in the future.

Lee
Rod - 11 Mar 2007 16:21 GMT
>> Tell us your plan then hotshot.  Remember, we are talking about a
>> current that starts during the dive.
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
>Lee

I was diving in Curacao on a shore site where the resident dive shop
assured me there was no drift diving because there was no current. The
, I assume, out going current started after we were in the dive, I had
no way at that time to know how strong it would get or last. The shore
other than where we entered was a rock wall.
Douglas W "Popeye" Frederick - 13 Mar 2007 01:59 GMT
>> "dechucka" <dechu...@vomithotmail.com> wrote in message
>> Sorry I should have added that your solution was lucky even if was
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Tell us your plan then hotshot.  Remember, we are talking about a
> current that starts during the dive.

 DAN!

 I can SEEEEEEEEE YOUUUUUU!

 Dammit, I'll have to start being nice to the other Canadians now.

 I haven't been able to see your posts for a couple years.
bracuk@axxent.ca - 13 Mar 2007 22:35 GMT
On Mar 12, 7:59 pm, "Douglas W \"Popeye\" Frederick"
<Pop...@finalprotectivefire.com> wrote:
> <bra...@axxent.ca> wrote in message

>   DAN!
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>   I haven't been able to see your posts for a couple years.

Your choices are:

Update your kill file to filter out the google me
or
Get my ISP to fix their news server.
Douglas W "Popeye" Frederick - 13 Mar 2007 21:44 GMT
> On Mar 12, 7:59 pm, "Douglas W \"Popeye\" Frederick"
> <Pop...@finalprotectivefire.com> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> or
> Get my ISP to fix their news server.

 You'll have to explain that, as to an 8 year old.

 Did you change something?

 Did -I- change something?

 You were never in my killfile, you're, like, the most irritatingly logical
person here.

 Maybe "common sensical".

Signature

                                Popeye
        "Best thing for him, really, his therapy was
           going nowhere."  -Dr. Hannibal Lector.

                   www.finalprotectivefire.com

bracuk@axxent.ca - 14 Mar 2007 00:21 GMT
On Mar 13, 3:44 pm, "Douglas W \"Popeye\" Frederick"
<Pop...@finalprotectivefire.com> wrote:
> <bra...@axxent.ca> wrote in message

>   You'll have to explain that, as to an 8 year old.
>
>   Did you change something?
>
>   Did -I- change something?

When I post like most people here, ie, using a newsreader and through
my Internet Service Provider's news server, you don't see it.
Somewhere along the line I am being filtered out.

That news server has been broke for awhile.  So I am posting through
google groups.

Now you see me.  Then you didn't.
Douglas W "Popeye" Frederick - 14 Mar 2007 00:36 GMT
> On Mar 13, 3:44 pm, "Douglas W \"Popeye\" Frederick"
> <Pop...@finalprotectivefire.com> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Now you see me.  Then you didn't.

 How cool is that.

 Glad yer back.

Signature

                                Popeye
        "Best thing for him, really, his therapy was
           going nowhere."  -Dr. Hannibal Lector.

                   www.finalprotectivefire.com

DanVolker - 11 Mar 2007 05:38 GMT
> I had an interesting situation on a dive in  last week. The location
> probably isn't important. My buddy and I decided we would do a shore
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> I found one, but I am not sure it was correct, versus lucky

If I was in that situation, the only issue would be-- could I come in
safely anywhere down-current..If so, I would do the whole drift dive,
then swim in as the dive neared the end. I would then get on shore,
and figure out who would come and get me--how to get ahold of them--or
I would walk a mile or so--no big deal either way....Then the next
time, I would know how to plan the dive. Sometimes, you have to do a
dive to figure out the "best" way to do it.
It's not like it is a dangerous dive--safety is a non-issue on the
dive situation we are discussing. This is more about how to make it
easy. Trying to fight the current would just make the experience a
clusterf*&%k.
DanV
Rod - 11 Mar 2007 05:47 GMT
>> I had an interesting situation on a dive in  last week. The location
>> probably isn't important. My buddy and I decided we would do a shore
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
>clusterf*&%k.
>DanV

So you are saying to not fight the current, go with it, an angle away
from it to get out ?
Lee Bell - 11 Mar 2007 12:41 GMT
> If I was in that situation, the only issue would be-- could I come in
> safely anywhere down-current..If so, I would do the whole drift dive,
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> clusterf*&%k.
> DanV

Your geographic bias is showing.  You answer is certainly good for where we
live, along the Florida coast unless, of course, the current he's in is
moving in or out of one of the inlets.  In other places, the chances that
you must exit where you entered are greater.

Lee
El Stroko Guapo - 11 Mar 2007 18:54 GMT
>>I had an interesting situation on a dive in  last week. The location
>>probably isn't important. My buddy and I decided we would do a shore
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
> clusterf*&%k.
> DanV

Yeah, right. The important thing is to get back to shore, not be blown
out to sea.

esg
bracuk@axxent.ca - 11 Mar 2007 06:20 GMT
> I had an interesting situation on a dive in  last week. The location
> probably isn't important. My buddy and I decided we would do a shore
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> I found one, but I am not sure it was correct, versus lucky

Find shore as best you can.  Your situation describes it as being
cross current.
Lee Bell - 11 Mar 2007 12:38 GMT
> What is the solution to the problem I am now in  ?

The first solution is not to have gotten yourself into that predicament in
the first place.  If you were dealing with a tidal current, you had the
ability to determine, in advance, that the current would exist and which way
it would be running.  If you were dealing with a consistent flow, such as we
get off the coast of south Florida, you could have anticipated, more or
less, where you would be exposed to it and been alert to when it began to
affect you, allowing you to react while it was still mild.

Sometimes, however, currents show up unexpectedly.  If that was the case,
where you were diving has a lot to do with how you should handle it.  Here's
a few options:
1. If the shoreline allowed, you can swim diagonally across the current
until you're out of it and able to return to shore.  If you can get out of
the current, you have the option of swimming back the way you came or coming
ashore where you can and walking back to your vehicle.  One of the many
advantages of a buddy system is, with a buddy, one of you can watch the
equipment while the other takes a walk.
2. If you must exist near where you entered, depending on conditions, you
can opt for swimming diagonally until you're out of the current and then
swim along the shore.  The disadvantage to this is that, if the current runs
all the way to the shore, you may not get out of it.  If this happens, you
may have to resort to 3 or 4.
3. If your exposure to currrent is related to your location and you believe
that returning a ways toward your entry point will get you out of it, you
have the somewhat undesirable option of pulling yourself along the bottom.
The bottom is rarely, if ever, completely dead, but the bottom you described
sounds like it's close to it.  Either sand or rubble can sometimes offer
sufficient purchase to allow you to pull yourself along.  You knife, used as
an anchor can sometimes help.  The problem with this is that you're going to
use more gas to fight the current.  When you run out of gas, you're done
pulling yourself along the bottom.
4. Your final option is to go with the flow, return to the surface and
signal for help, assuming that help might be available somewhere in the
area.

The correct answer, of course, depends on the conditions at the time,
something you've not shared and something that may, in fact, be very
dependent on where you are diving.

Lee
Grumman-581 - 11 Mar 2007 16:14 GMT
> The bottom is rarely, if ever, completely dead, but the bottom you described
> sounds like it's close to it.  Either sand or rubble can sometimes offer
> sufficient purchase to allow you to pull yourself along.  You knife, used as
> an anchor can sometimes help.

I was doing a shore dive near Destin, FL at one time... It was kind of
an impromptu dive and as such, I had to just put up with whatever
tides that I might be getting... Well, let's just say that it was a
pretty good tidal flow... All the bay water was flushing through this
one area and even with my arm buried up to my elbow in the sand, I was
getting dragged with the flow, leaving a 2 ft deep trough where my arm
was acting as a plow... When it finally pulled me loose, it was like a
rocket assisted drift dive... The sandy bottom was just a blur as I
rocketed across it... Although I was swimming perpendicular to the
flow in the attempt to get to the othe side of the channel, I could
hear the boats crossing over my head every 30 seconds or so... I
finally determined that I might not make it across before I was swept
out into the Gulf, so I decided to surface to check my position... I
waited until one boat had gone over me and then quickly surfaced
before the next one came along... Turns out they were a dive boat and
offered me a lift back to the east side of the bridge where I had
started my dive...
bracuk@axxent.ca - 11 Mar 2007 20:53 GMT
> I found one, but I am not sure it was correct, versus lucky

What did you do?
Rod - 11 Mar 2007 21:18 GMT
>> I found one, but I am not sure it was correct, versus lucky
>
>What did you do?

We angled about 45 degrees from the flow back the way we came. The
idea being to go out deeper and when out of it, come back in towards
where we entered the reef. The problem was the current was just too
fast, we were going out way faster than we were crossing it. We
elected to surface and swim in against it. The problem was the water
was now so deep we wern't sure we were making headway. We were, but
didn't really know it for a good amount of time. Once we realized we
were gaining on it we elected to head towards the nearest shore, it
was a rock wall 12 feet high be that seemed better than exhausting our
selves.My buddy decided to go down again and try it along the bottom,
problem was he did not surface to tell me how it was going and I was
down to 500 psi so I stayed on the surface. I had by now gone onto my
back and fin towards the wall, When I crashed into it with my head I
figured out I was there.
I then went under and swam parallel to the wall to the beach. When I
surfaced, my buddy was standing there. he had crawled along the bottom
to get there. We walked back to the dive shop and by then the normal
workers/ instructors were on the deck cleaning up. I spoke to them
about the current and they said, they told all their divers to never
go out in the sanyd dead area, as a mater of fact they had a white
bouy in plce to mark the turn around point They then went in to
refresh the shop workers memory about that.
It basically took 6 beers and two hours to get calmed down and stop
sweating bullets.
dechucka - 12 Mar 2007 02:48 GMT
>>> I found one, but I am not sure it was correct, versus lucky
>>
>>What did you do?
>>
> We angled about 45 degrees from the flow back the way we came

hint for next time swimming at 45 degrees into a current exposes more of
your surface area to the current  and you are pushed back more. To get out
of a rip/current ( if you think you can ) go with it and angle across.

snip

by the way more good luck than good management to get out of that one.

PS I have had a similar situation occur to me as an inexperienced diver
which is why I am slightly? sanctimonious about planning dives and planning
for what may happen
Adam Helberg - 15 Mar 2007 05:58 GMT
>>> I found one, but I am not sure it was correct, versus lucky
>>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> back and fin towards the wall, When I crashed into it with my head I
> figured out I was there.

Any damage to the rock?
 
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