Scuba Forum / General / March 2007
Question about correct action
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Rod - 11 Mar 2007 04:45 GMT I had an interesting situation on a dive in last week. The location probably isn't important. My buddy and I decided we would do a shore dive. We rented a locker to stow our stuff and talked to the person in the dive shop about the dive. We decided would go left if there was no current, stay above 55 feet and turn to come back at 1500 PSI or 30 minutes. We headed out and found no current so we went left. After 20 minutes the coral turned to flat pan of sand and dead staghorn coral. We started accross it and noticed a slight current going in our direction. We continued on and realized we were now in a full drift situation. We turned and found with full kick we could stay where we were, if we added full breast stroke, we could move against the current a few feet at a time.
we were at 35 feet we had been down 25 minutes we did not know the area, other than as a "great" dive
What is the solution to the problem I am now in ?
I found one, but I am not sure it was correct, versus lucky
dechucka - 11 Mar 2007 05:01 GMT >I had an interesting situation on a dive in last week. The location > probably isn't important. My buddy and I decided we would do a shore [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > I found one, but I am not sure it was correct, versus lucky you didn't have multiple exit points?
dechucka - 11 Mar 2007 05:02 GMT >>I had an interesting situation on a dive in last week. The location >> probably isn't important. My buddy and I decided we would do a shore [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > you didn't have multiple exit points? Sorry I should have added that your solution was lucky even if was correct because you didn't plan the dive properly
Rod - 11 Mar 2007 05:40 GMT >>>I had an interesting situation on a dive in last week. The location >>> probably isn't important. My buddy and I decided we would do a shore [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >Sorry I should have added that your solution was lucky even if was correct >because you didn't plan the dive properly I saw no need for multiple points, this was a recrational dive. I am asking, " what is the correct, if there is one, action if you find yourself in an outgoing rip.
dechucka - 11 Mar 2007 05:55 GMT >>>>I had an interesting situation on a dive in last week. The location >>>> probably isn't important. My buddy and I decided we would do a shore [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > asking, " what is the correct, if there is one, action if you find > yourself in an outgoing rip. Sorry I did sound a bit high and mighty and full of myself. However even on the simplest dive I would have multiple exit points or contingencies plans. If it was an out going rip I would swim out with it till it weakened than swam in parallel to it to the beach. If it was a long shore rip/current I would go with the flow till a suitable exit point was found. Bugger swimming into the current you get tired and tired bodies don't lead to clear thinking.
Douglas W "Popeye" Frederick - 13 Mar 2007 01:55 GMT > Sorry I did sound a bit high and mighty and full of myself. We're used to it.
>However even on the simplest dive I would have multiple exit points or >contingencies plans. Not me.
Up.
I plan to go up.
It's always worked pretty good in the past.
> If it was an out going rip I would swim out with it till it weakened than > swam in parallel to it to the beach. If it was a long shore rip/current I > would go with the flow till a suitable exit point was found. Bugger > swimming into the current you get tired and tired bodies don't lead to > clear thinking. dechucka - 13 Mar 2007 03:00 GMT >> Sorry I did sound a bit high and mighty and full of myself. > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > It's always worked pretty good in the past. excellent, works for you but not for me once I'm surfaced I love to feel dry land under my feet again. I'll plan my dives and extra exit points
Lee Bell - 11 Mar 2007 12:46 GMT > I saw no need for multiple points, this was a recrational dive. I am > asking, " what is the correct, if there is one, action if you find > yourself in an outgoing rip. Then that's what you should have asked.
In a rip current, you do one of three things, depending on circumstances. The recommended procedure is to swim, at a normal relaxed pace, diagonally across the current until you are out of it, then swim in whatever direction best suits your purpose. Should that fail, you simply allow the current to move you off shore until it diminishes, move away from the current and return to shore. Should that prove impossible, you signal for help as soon as you know you're not going to be able to rescue yourself.
Lee
Danlw - 11 Mar 2007 05:47 GMT >>>I had an interesting situation on a dive in last week. The location >>> probably isn't important. My buddy and I decided we would do a shore [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > Sorry I should have added that your solution was lucky even if was correct > because you didn't plan the dive properly Ya gotta love a country were everyone plans everything right the first time, every time. In a country like that, there would never be anybody left out on a reef after a dive.
dechucka - 11 Mar 2007 05:57 GMT >>>>I had an interesting situation on a dive in last week. The location >>>> probably isn't important. My buddy and I decided we would do a shore [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > time, every time. In a country like that, there would never be anybody > left out on a reef after a dive. Only in Queensland and they are a bit strange.
Plan your dive and dive your plan and make sure you at least have a think about what could go wrong and maybe have an idea or 2 what to do about them
dechucka - 11 Mar 2007 07:04 GMT >>>>>I had an interesting situation on a dive in last week. The location >>>>> probably isn't important. My buddy and I decided we would do a shore [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > about what could go wrong and maybe have an idea or 2 what to do about > them the 2 Americans should have planned to get on the boat quicker
Rod - 11 Mar 2007 13:26 GMT >>>>>>I had an interesting situation on a dive in last week. The location >>>>>> probably isn't important. My buddy and I decided we would do a shore [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > >the 2 Americans should have planned to get on the boat quicker There was no boat, it was a shore dive
dechucka - 11 Mar 2007 20:47 GMT >>>>>>>I had an interesting situation on a dive in last week. The location >>>>>>> probably isn't important. My buddy and I decided we would do a shore [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] >> > There was no boat, it was a shore dive Dan was referring to an incident in Aus where 2 American diver on the GBR got left behind and unfortunately drowned because of extremely slack behaviour and procedures by a boat operator
Douglas W "Popeye" Frederick - 13 Mar 2007 01:57 GMT > "dechucka" <dechucka@vomithotmail.com> wrote in message >> Sorry I should have added that your solution was lucky even if was [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > time, every time. In a country like that, there would never be anybody > left out on a reef after a dive. Oh.
My.
God.
bracuk@axxent.ca - 11 Mar 2007 06:22 GMT > "dechucka" <dechu...@vomithotmail.com> wrote in message > Sorry I should have added that your solution was lucky even if was correct > because you didn't plan the dive properly Tell us your plan then hotshot. Remember, we are talking about a current that starts during the dive.
dechucka - 11 Mar 2007 06:34 GMT >> "dechucka" <dechu...@vomithotmail.com> wrote in message >> Sorry I should have added that your solution was lucky even if was [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Tell us your plan then hotshot. Remember, we are talking about a > current that starts during the dive. Easy MORON have multiple exit points, what if it wasn't a current that caused the problem but maybe a medical problem even as simple as a cramp that couldn't be cleared or gear failure ( although I can't think of one at the moment which would stop you doing a surface swim back) good idea to think if we get down there and can't get back what do we do.
Don't you actually think of things that may go wrong on a dive and plan for them?
bracuk@axxent.ca - 11 Mar 2007 19:14 GMT > Easy MORON have multiple exit points, what if it wasn't a current that > caused the problem but maybe a medical problem even as simple as a cramp [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Don't you actually think of things that may go wrong on a dive and plan for > them? You display smugness as if it were a redeeming quality. Tell us, hotshot, how planning for multiple exit points enables you to deal with a current that starts during the dive.
dechucka - 11 Mar 2007 20:48 GMT >> Easy MORON have multiple exit points, what if it wasn't a current that >> caused the problem but maybe a medical problem even as simple as a cramp [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > hotshot, how planning for multiple exit points enables you to deal > with a current that starts during the dive. Easily it give you somewhere to get out of the water if you cannot return to your planned exit point
Lee Bell - 11 Mar 2007 12:57 GMT > Tell us your plan then hotshot. Remember, we are talking about a > current that starts during the dive. Maybe yes, maybe no. He didn't tell us where he was and he didn't tell us what the limits on his return were. He also didn't tell us that the current started during the dive, only that he encountered it during his dive. As described, the current could have been tidal, in which case it could have been anticipated. It could have been a rip current, as he later described it, in which case, a little attention to things before the dive still would have allowed him to anticipate it. You can usually see rip currents from shore. It could have been flow out of a river or into or out of an inlet, in which case, he still could have planned for it. No matter what the source, he could have talked to the dive shop he mentioned in his post about currents and other characteristics common to the dive site.
In fact, the circumstances that would have allowed him to plan for the current are more numerous than those that did not permit planning.
While not required to answer the question as asked, I don't think it's wrong to mention the failure to plan well. Recognition of one's mistakes is the first step to doing a better job of avoiding problems in the future.
Lee
Rod - 11 Mar 2007 16:21 GMT >> Tell us your plan then hotshot. Remember, we are talking about a >> current that starts during the dive. [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > >Lee I was diving in Curacao on a shore site where the resident dive shop assured me there was no drift diving because there was no current. The , I assume, out going current started after we were in the dive, I had no way at that time to know how strong it would get or last. The shore other than where we entered was a rock wall.
Douglas W "Popeye" Frederick - 13 Mar 2007 01:59 GMT >> "dechucka" <dechu...@vomithotmail.com> wrote in message >> Sorry I should have added that your solution was lucky even if was [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Tell us your plan then hotshot. Remember, we are talking about a > current that starts during the dive. DAN!
I can SEEEEEEEEE YOUUUUUU!
Dammit, I'll have to start being nice to the other Canadians now.
I haven't been able to see your posts for a couple years.
bracuk@axxent.ca - 13 Mar 2007 22:35 GMT On Mar 12, 7:59 pm, "Douglas W \"Popeye\" Frederick" <Pop...@finalprotectivefire.com> wrote:
> <bra...@axxent.ca> wrote in message
> DAN! > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > I haven't been able to see your posts for a couple years. Your choices are:
Update your kill file to filter out the google me or Get my ISP to fix their news server.
Douglas W "Popeye" Frederick - 13 Mar 2007 21:44 GMT > On Mar 12, 7:59 pm, "Douglas W \"Popeye\" Frederick" > <Pop...@finalprotectivefire.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > or > Get my ISP to fix their news server. You'll have to explain that, as to an 8 year old.
Did you change something?
Did -I- change something?
You were never in my killfile, you're, like, the most irritatingly logical person here.
Maybe "common sensical".
 Signature Popeye "Best thing for him, really, his therapy was going nowhere." -Dr. Hannibal Lector.
www.finalprotectivefire.com
bracuk@axxent.ca - 14 Mar 2007 00:21 GMT On Mar 13, 3:44 pm, "Douglas W \"Popeye\" Frederick" <Pop...@finalprotectivefire.com> wrote:
> <bra...@axxent.ca> wrote in message
> You'll have to explain that, as to an 8 year old. > > Did you change something? > > Did -I- change something? When I post like most people here, ie, using a newsreader and through my Internet Service Provider's news server, you don't see it. Somewhere along the line I am being filtered out.
That news server has been broke for awhile. So I am posting through google groups.
Now you see me. Then you didn't.
Douglas W "Popeye" Frederick - 14 Mar 2007 00:36 GMT > On Mar 13, 3:44 pm, "Douglas W \"Popeye\" Frederick" > <Pop...@finalprotectivefire.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Now you see me. Then you didn't. How cool is that.
Glad yer back.
 Signature Popeye "Best thing for him, really, his therapy was going nowhere." -Dr. Hannibal Lector.
www.finalprotectivefire.com
DanVolker - 11 Mar 2007 05:38 GMT > I had an interesting situation on a dive in last week. The location > probably isn't important. My buddy and I decided we would do a shore [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > I found one, but I am not sure it was correct, versus lucky If I was in that situation, the only issue would be-- could I come in safely anywhere down-current..If so, I would do the whole drift dive, then swim in as the dive neared the end. I would then get on shore, and figure out who would come and get me--how to get ahold of them--or I would walk a mile or so--no big deal either way....Then the next time, I would know how to plan the dive. Sometimes, you have to do a dive to figure out the "best" way to do it. It's not like it is a dangerous dive--safety is a non-issue on the dive situation we are discussing. This is more about how to make it easy. Trying to fight the current would just make the experience a clusterf*&%k. DanV
Rod - 11 Mar 2007 05:47 GMT >> I had an interesting situation on a dive in last week. The location >> probably isn't important. My buddy and I decided we would do a shore [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] >clusterf*&%k. >DanV So you are saying to not fight the current, go with it, an angle away from it to get out ?
Lee Bell - 11 Mar 2007 12:41 GMT > If I was in that situation, the only issue would be-- could I come in > safely anywhere down-current..If so, I would do the whole drift dive, [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > clusterf*&%k. > DanV Your geographic bias is showing. You answer is certainly good for where we live, along the Florida coast unless, of course, the current he's in is moving in or out of one of the inlets. In other places, the chances that you must exit where you entered are greater.
Lee
El Stroko Guapo - 11 Mar 2007 18:54 GMT >>I had an interesting situation on a dive in last week. The location >>probably isn't important. My buddy and I decided we would do a shore [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > clusterf*&%k. > DanV Yeah, right. The important thing is to get back to shore, not be blown out to sea.
esg
bracuk@axxent.ca - 11 Mar 2007 06:20 GMT > I had an interesting situation on a dive in last week. The location > probably isn't important. My buddy and I decided we would do a shore [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > I found one, but I am not sure it was correct, versus lucky Find shore as best you can. Your situation describes it as being cross current.
Lee Bell - 11 Mar 2007 12:38 GMT > What is the solution to the problem I am now in ? The first solution is not to have gotten yourself into that predicament in the first place. If you were dealing with a tidal current, you had the ability to determine, in advance, that the current would exist and which way it would be running. If you were dealing with a consistent flow, such as we get off the coast of south Florida, you could have anticipated, more or less, where you would be exposed to it and been alert to when it began to affect you, allowing you to react while it was still mild.
Sometimes, however, currents show up unexpectedly. If that was the case, where you were diving has a lot to do with how you should handle it. Here's a few options: 1. If the shoreline allowed, you can swim diagonally across the current until you're out of it and able to return to shore. If you can get out of the current, you have the option of swimming back the way you came or coming ashore where you can and walking back to your vehicle. One of the many advantages of a buddy system is, with a buddy, one of you can watch the equipment while the other takes a walk. 2. If you must exist near where you entered, depending on conditions, you can opt for swimming diagonally until you're out of the current and then swim along the shore. The disadvantage to this is that, if the current runs all the way to the shore, you may not get out of it. If this happens, you may have to resort to 3 or 4. 3. If your exposure to currrent is related to your location and you believe that returning a ways toward your entry point will get you out of it, you have the somewhat undesirable option of pulling yourself along the bottom. The bottom is rarely, if ever, completely dead, but the bottom you described sounds like it's close to it. Either sand or rubble can sometimes offer sufficient purchase to allow you to pull yourself along. You knife, used as an anchor can sometimes help. The problem with this is that you're going to use more gas to fight the current. When you run out of gas, you're done pulling yourself along the bottom. 4. Your final option is to go with the flow, return to the surface and signal for help, assuming that help might be available somewhere in the area.
The correct answer, of course, depends on the conditions at the time, something you've not shared and something that may, in fact, be very dependent on where you are diving.
Lee
Grumman-581 - 11 Mar 2007 16:14 GMT > The bottom is rarely, if ever, completely dead, but the bottom you described > sounds like it's close to it. Either sand or rubble can sometimes offer > sufficient purchase to allow you to pull yourself along. You knife, used as > an anchor can sometimes help. I was doing a shore dive near Destin, FL at one time... It was kind of an impromptu dive and as such, I had to just put up with whatever tides that I might be getting... Well, let's just say that it was a pretty good tidal flow... All the bay water was flushing through this one area and even with my arm buried up to my elbow in the sand, I was getting dragged with the flow, leaving a 2 ft deep trough where my arm was acting as a plow... When it finally pulled me loose, it was like a rocket assisted drift dive... The sandy bottom was just a blur as I rocketed across it... Although I was swimming perpendicular to the flow in the attempt to get to the othe side of the channel, I could hear the boats crossing over my head every 30 seconds or so... I finally determined that I might not make it across before I was swept out into the Gulf, so I decided to surface to check my position... I waited until one boat had gone over me and then quickly surfaced before the next one came along... Turns out they were a dive boat and offered me a lift back to the east side of the bridge where I had started my dive...
bracuk@axxent.ca - 11 Mar 2007 20:53 GMT > I found one, but I am not sure it was correct, versus lucky What did you do?
Rod - 11 Mar 2007 21:18 GMT >> I found one, but I am not sure it was correct, versus lucky > >What did you do? We angled about 45 degrees from the flow back the way we came. The idea being to go out deeper and when out of it, come back in towards where we entered the reef. The problem was the current was just too fast, we were going out way faster than we were crossing it. We elected to surface and swim in against it. The problem was the water was now so deep we wern't sure we were making headway. We were, but didn't really know it for a good amount of time. Once we realized we were gaining on it we elected to head towards the nearest shore, it was a rock wall 12 feet high be that seemed better than exhausting our selves.My buddy decided to go down again and try it along the bottom, problem was he did not surface to tell me how it was going and I was down to 500 psi so I stayed on the surface. I had by now gone onto my back and fin towards the wall, When I crashed into it with my head I figured out I was there. I then went under and swam parallel to the wall to the beach. When I surfaced, my buddy was standing there. he had crawled along the bottom to get there. We walked back to the dive shop and by then the normal workers/ instructors were on the deck cleaning up. I spoke to them about the current and they said, they told all their divers to never go out in the sanyd dead area, as a mater of fact they had a white bouy in plce to mark the turn around point They then went in to refresh the shop workers memory about that. It basically took 6 beers and two hours to get calmed down and stop sweating bullets.
dechucka - 12 Mar 2007 02:48 GMT >>> I found one, but I am not sure it was correct, versus lucky >> >>What did you do? >> > We angled about 45 degrees from the flow back the way we came hint for next time swimming at 45 degrees into a current exposes more of your surface area to the current and you are pushed back more. To get out of a rip/current ( if you think you can ) go with it and angle across.
snip
by the way more good luck than good management to get out of that one.
PS I have had a similar situation occur to me as an inexperienced diver which is why I am slightly? sanctimonious about planning dives and planning for what may happen
Adam Helberg - 15 Mar 2007 05:58 GMT >>> I found one, but I am not sure it was correct, versus lucky >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > back and fin towards the wall, When I crashed into it with my head I > figured out I was there. Any damage to the rock?
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