Scuba Forum / General / March 2007
Need help with Scuba science.
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Sheldon - 03 Mar 2007 00:18 GMT Okay. I can't dive down much below the surface of the pool unless I exhale because I'm too buoyant. If I exhale I'll go right down, but I can't seem to exhale and hold my breath so I freak out and need to come right up. Based on the info I've been reading if I take a few deep breaths I should be able to exhale and go right down. Seems "science" says that it's too much CO2 that makes you want to take a breath. Build up your oxygen and you shouldn't feel the need to breath until your CO2 builds up again.
Now, if I do this I still want to take a breath when I go down. Is this just a psychological thing because it's more normal for a person to inhale to hold their breath than exhale? Or, is my science all screwed up?
I guess this would be more of a snorkeling skill, but I want to make sure I've got the science right. Hope I explained it right.
Thanks
Sheldon
Veem - 03 Mar 2007 01:08 GMT > Okay. I can't dive down much below the surface of the pool unless I exhale > because I'm too buoyant. If I exhale I'll go right down, but I can't seem [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Sheldon I can't hold my breath or exhale (either one) and dive to the bottom of the pool, however, I am a very good diver, with no problems at all becoming and staying neutrally bouyant. I don't kick up the bottom, and can easily control my ascent or descent. Don't be concerned if you can't just dive down unassisted to pick up something on the bottom of the pool.
Greg Mossman - 03 Mar 2007 01:30 GMT > I can't hold my breath or exhale (either one) and dive to the bottom of the > pool, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > pick up > something on the bottom of the pool. I'm curious. Are you disabled iin some way? I can't imagine not being able to easily reach the bottom of the pool unless it's as salty as the Dead Sea and you have no feet.
Veem - 03 Mar 2007 03:39 GMT >> I can't hold my breath or exhale (either one) and dive to the bottom of >> the [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > being able to easily reach the bottom of the pool unless it's as salty > as the Dead Sea and you have no feet. No, i mean in my pool. i think my b--bs keep me from being able to dive to the bottom when i am swimming
Greg Mossman - 03 Mar 2007 06:42 GMT > >> I can't hold my breath or exhale (either one) and dive to the bottom of > >> the [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > No, i mean in my pool. i think my b--bs keep me from being able to dive to > the bottom when i am swimming- Why do you wear a bib when you dive? If you eat lobster underwater, the water will wash any spills away before they stain your wetsuit.
Seriously, I'm sorry for not recognizing that Veem is a feminine name. I'm not sure why it sounded manly to me but it did. Usually I'm victim of the opposite, making moves on a cute chicky moniker until I find out it's really a hairy New Zealander in drag.
That rude obnoxious Grumman will now be around to ask you to post pictures. If you'd rather, just e-mail them to me privately.
-hh - 03 Mar 2007 12:55 GMT > > No, i mean in my pool. i think my b--bs keep me from being able to dive to > > the bottom when i am swimming- > > That rude obnoxious Grumman will now be around to ask you to post > pictures. If you'd rather, just e-mail them to me privately. If they're nice bibs, I'll host them on the rec.scuba photo gallery page if you send me a copy. They can even be clothed :-)
A bit more seriously,
A human body is pretty close to neutural buoyancy; a person's lung volume is usually 'just enough' to push us over/under this buoyancy balance point in freshwater.
Saltwater, being more dense, tends to create a slight positive buoyacy bais. So too do body compositions with (euphamistically) 'higher fat content', since fat is less dense than muscle.
What to do about it?
One option is to alter your body's net effective density. Exhaling is the quickest way, but can have some complications and limitations. If nothing else, you have a smaller reserve of O2 in your lungs for your blood to exchange with, so the time you can stay underwater is reduced.
The second option is to wear some ballast. Essentially the same thing you do to counteract additional buoyancy from adding a wetsuit.
However, for both of the above, something to keep in mind is that the air remaining in our lungs will be compressed by ambient pressures as we go deeper, so as we freedive, our bodies lose some of its natural buoyancy. As such, even with a full breath of air, we may not necessarily still be positively buoyant when we are, say, 20fsw or deeper. As such, adding extra ballast has to be done cautiously.
The third - and IMO best for snorkeling - option is to "use what you have" better. In general, what I'm referring to here are techniques such as surface dives.
The basic physics behind a surface dive is that you're lifting part of your body (your feet) out of the water, where since they are now sticking out in the air, they're not displacing water, so this will act as a force to push the rest of your body further down into the water.
Performed reasonably quickly, and you'll overshoot your neutral point, which is a good thing because what you do with a surface dive is to then kick your feet to drive you under. Fortunately, the jacknifing for a surface dive gets you pointed straight down with your fins behind you, so you're now pointed in the direction you need to go with your fins in the orientation to be the most efficient.
For a few body-types, just getting down to the bottom of the pool is enough of a pressure change to compress the air in their lungs and they can hang out at the bottom, looking for quarters in the drain. Most of us will start to float back up as soon as we stop kicking, although at varying degrees. Sometimes, a short exhalation 'burp' can be useful then to trade-off some O2 supply because it can reduce exertion level (the demand for metabolizing the same O2).
Just be careful when experimenting. You don't really need to hyperventillate for any of this.
-hh
Sheldon - 04 Mar 2007 00:01 GMT >> > No, i mean in my pool. i think my b--bs keep me from being able to >> > dive to [quoted text clipped - 63 lines] > > -hh Well, so far one decent answer to my question, although all have been entertaining. :-)
Lee Bell - 04 Mar 2007 20:19 GMT > Well, so far one decent answer to my question, although all have been > entertaining. :-) Yeah, but it's at least partly misleading if not incorrect.
>> A human body is pretty close to neutural buoyancy; a person's lung >> volume is usually 'just enough' to push us over/under this buoyancy >> balance point in freshwater. Varies with the individual. Fatty tissue (boobs included) is more buoyant than muscle and bone. When I was a younger man, the hardest part of passing my Water Safety Instructor certification was floating. I didn't float worth a darn. These days, it takes a couple lbs or more just to offset my buoyancy. Women tend to be more buoyant than men. It's not a sure thing, but is generally the case. As I recall, women have one more fat layer than men, presumably to protect a developing child from outside heat and cold.
>> Saltwater, being more dense, tends to create a slight positive buoyacy >> bais. So too do body compositions with (euphamistically) 'higher fat >> content', since fat is less dense than muscle. Saltwater causes everything to be more buoyant than in fresh water, but may or may not make it positive. Fat is not only less dense, it's so much less dense that it floats. Muscle and bone don't. The less the fat, the less the buoyancy.
>> However, for both of the above, something to keep in mind is that the >> air remaining in our lungs will be compressed by ambient pressures as >> we go deeper, so as we freedive, our bodies lose some of its natural >> buoyancy. As such, even with a full breath of air, we may not >> necessarily still be positively buoyant when we are, say, 20fsw or >> deeper. As such, adding extra ballast has to be done cautiously. Absolutely correct and an important issue. Having enough negative buoyancy to descend easily is nice, but not if it means you'll have a hard time getting back up. Easy does it is more than just a good idea.
>> The third - and IMO best for snorkeling - option is to "use what you >> have" better. In general, what I'm referring to here are techniques >> such as surface dives.
>> The basic physics behind a surface dive is that you're lifting part of >> your body (your feet) out of the water, where since they are now [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >> behind you, so you're now pointed in the direction you need to go with >> your fins in the orientation to be the most efficient. Pretty good description.
>> For a few body-types, just getting down to the bottom of the pool is >> enough of a pressure change to compress the air in their lungs and >> they can hang out at the bottom, looking for quarters in the drain. The air compresses the same no matter what your body type is. For those that are only slightly buoyant, they may become slightly negative.
>> Just be careful when experimenting. You don't really need to >> hyperventillate for any of this. Hyperventillating is generally considered a poor idea. On the other hand, I used to do it all the time. Guess I was just lucky.
Lee
Grumman-581 - 04 Mar 2007 23:22 GMT > Pretty good description. Agreed... In fact, quite a bit better than when I tried to describe it previously... Growing up around water, it's one of those things that you kind of learn to do without consciously thinking about it and trying to describe it to someone who has never done it is a bit difficult... He gave a very good description of it...
Veem - 03 Mar 2007 15:58 GMT hey, no problem. one advantage, when we had to tread water/float for the dive pre-lims, I could go on forever
>> >> I can't hold my breath or exhale (either one) and dive to the bottom >> >> of [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > That rude obnoxious Grumman will now be around to ask you to post > pictures. If you'd rather, just e-mail them to me privately. Grumman-581 - 03 Mar 2007 17:21 GMT > hey, no problem. one advantage, when we had to tread water/float for the > dive pre-lims, I could go on forever You make the claim in public, you have to post the pictures in public... <dirty-old-man-grin>
Veem - 03 Mar 2007 17:45 GMT http://home.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user&DERDB=ZG9tYWluPWNveCZ0bGQ9bmV0 JnNtb2tlcj0wJnNleHByZWY9MSZ1dHlwZT0yJnJlbGlnaW9uaWQ9MCZyZWdpb249JnBvc3RhbGNvZGU9 ODUwMzImbWFyaXRhbHN0YXR1cz1NJmluY29tZWlkPTAmaGVpZ2h0PTAmZ2VuZGVyPUYmZnJpZW5kcz0w JmV0aG5pY2lkPS0xJmFnZT01NSZib2R5dHlwZWlkPS0xJmNoaWxkcmVuaWQ9NCZjb3VudHJ5PVVTJmRh dGluZz0wJmRyaW5rZXI9MSZlZHVjYXRpb25pZD0yJnJlbGF0aW9uc2hpcHM9MCZuZXR3b3JraW5nPTAm ZGlzcGxheW5hbWU9WlNBWlNBJmZyaWVuZGlkX2ludD00NjI1NTQ3NSZpcGFkZHJlc3M9JzEwLjQ0LjEy OC41MCc=&setonlinenow=1&setrsi=1&Mytoken=018367AF-0657-458D-A4AF4E44F759A0788273 6256
>> hey, no problem. one advantage, when we had to tread water/float for the >> dive pre-lims, I could go on forever > > You make the claim in public, you have to post the pictures in > public... <dirty-old-man-grin> -hh - 03 Mar 2007 21:10 GMT > http://home.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user&DERDB=ZG9tYWluPWNve... That's only the page for yourself You need to give out your 'public' URL, which should have a format of:
http://www.myspace.com/{nine digit number}
It should be listed for you on your myspace homepage.
-hh
Paul Foley - 03 Mar 2007 01:36 GMT > Okay. I can't dive down much below the surface of the pool unless I exhale > because I'm too buoyant. If I exhale I'll go right down, but I can't seem [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Sheldon First, a warning: hyperventilating like that before a breath hold dive is a great way to pass out and drown. Don't do it.
You do a breath hold dive with a lungful of air. This means you're positively buoyant, which makes it hard to get down where you want to go. You just gotta work on it. Technique is like this: you swim on the surface till you see something interesting... a fish or, in the case of the pool, a used bandaid. First bend at the waist, head down. Ideally your torso will be vertical. Then kick your legs straight up, pointed at the sky. Their weight will push you down fast... be ready to equalize your ears (which ain't easy, in a head-down position).
This will probalby take a lot of practice. But it is fun!
Danlw - 03 Mar 2007 02:25 GMT >> Okay. I can't dive down much below the surface of the pool unless I >> exhale because I'm too buoyant. If I exhale I'll go right down, but I [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > This will probalby take a lot of practice. But it is fun! Uh, unless your BMI is really off, you should go down with a full breath. Try what Paul said, but if you can't go down then, better talk to your instructor to see what the problem is. Best of luck in the class! Dan
Greg Mossman - 03 Mar 2007 06:47 GMT > Uh, unless your BMI is really off, you should go down with a full breath. Yeah, that's what I always tell the ladies.
Sheldon - 04 Mar 2007 00:06 GMT >> Uh, unless your BMI is really off, you should go down with a full breath. > > Yeah, that's what I always tell the ladies. Does it work? lol
Sheldon - 04 Mar 2007 00:05 GMT >>> Okay. I can't dive down much below the surface of the pool unless I >>> exhale because I'm too buoyant. If I exhale I'll go right down, but I [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > instructor to see what the problem is. > Best of luck in the class! Dan Thanks. And since I don't have "breasts," and I'm not overweight, I'm sure that's not the problem.
Lee Bell - 04 Mar 2007 20:23 GMT > Thanks. And since I don't have "breasts," and I'm not overweight, I'm > sure that's not the problem. The issue is not your weight, but the proportion of fat to other tissues. Fat floats, bone and muscle don't. If you float, you've got enough fat to more than offset the negative bone and muscle. Most people are buoyant, some more than others. Only a few are negative.
Lee
Douglas W "Popeye" Frederick - 04 Mar 2007 20:37 GMT >> Thanks. And since I don't have "breasts," and I'm not overweight, I'm >> sure that's not the problem. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > more than offset the negative bone and muscle. Most people are buoyant, > some more than others. Only a few are negative. I can float with a six-pack on my chest, and keep my face above water.
Fact.
Lee Bell - 04 Mar 2007 20:55 GMT Douglas W Popeye Frederick wrote
> I can float with a six-pack on my chest, and keep my face above water. Probably comes from practicing so much.
Lee
Douglas W "Popeye" Frederick - 04 Mar 2007 21:16 GMT > Douglas W Popeye Frederick wrote > >> I can float with a six-pack on my chest, and keep my face above water. > > Probably comes from practicing so much. People say I have a buoyant personality.
Magilla - 04 Mar 2007 21:40 GMT >>> I can float with a six-pack on my chest, and keep my face above water. >> >> Probably comes from practicing so much. > > People say I have a buoyant personality. Not in the least bit impressive.
"Know" several people here who can float barely touching the water.
Hot Air works wonders.
Douglas W "Popeye" Frederick - 05 Mar 2007 01:53 GMT >>>> I can float with a six-pack on my chest, and keep my face above water. >>> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Hot Air works wonders. :-)
Kari - 06 Mar 2007 00:13 GMT On Mar 4, 1:37 pm, "Douglas W \"Popeye\" Frederick" <Pop...@finalprotectivefire.com> wrote:
> >> Thanks. And since I don't have "breasts," and I'm not overweight, I'm > >> sure that's not the problem. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Fact. And dealing with the six-pack gives one something to do during the ten minute float. :-)
Douglas W "Popeye" Frederick - 06 Mar 2007 02:16 GMT > On Mar 4, 1:37 pm, "Douglas W \"Popeye\" Frederick" > <Pop...@finalprotectivefire.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > And dealing with the six-pack gives one something to do during the ten > minute float. :-) :-)
How was your vaca?
Sheldon - 04 Mar 2007 00:03 GMT >> Okay. I can't dive down much below the surface of the pool unless I >> exhale because I'm too buoyant. If I exhale I'll go right down, but I [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > First, a warning: hyperventilating like that before a breath hold dive is > a great way to pass out and drown. Don't do it. Thanks for another good answer, and yes, I am aware of hyperventilation. My understanding is, and I'm sure it's different for everybody, is no more than 3 breaths before you go under.
> You do a breath hold dive with a lungful of air. This means you're > positively buoyant, which makes it hard to get down where you want to go. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > This will probalby take a lot of practice. But it is fun! Kurt - 05 Mar 2007 17:48 GMT > Okay. I can't dive down much below the surface of the pool unless I exhale > because I'm too buoyant. If I exhale I'll go right down, but I can't seem [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > just a psychological thing because it's more normal for a person to inhale > to hold their breath than exhale? Or, is my science all screwed up? If I exhale first, I'm good for less than 10 seconds. Science or not, you can stay down a LOT longer with a full lung.
Once you get a few feet down, water pressure will compress your body and help you stay there. If you haven't tried this, try rolling over so that your legs are totally out of the water as you dive. Once you get down about 10 feet you should notice it's a lot easier to stay there.
Sheldon - 05 Mar 2007 23:32 GMT >> Okay. I can't dive down much below the surface of the pool unless I >> exhale because I'm too buoyant. If I exhale I'll go right down, but I [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > so that your legs are totally out of the water as you dive. Once you > get down about 10 feet you should notice it's a lot easier to stay there. I'll give it a try. Thanks.
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