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Scuba Forum / General / March 2007

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Need help with Scuba science.

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Sheldon - 03 Mar 2007 00:18 GMT
Okay. I can't dive down much below the surface of the pool unless I exhale
because I'm too buoyant.  If I exhale I'll go right down, but I can't seem
to exhale and hold my breath so I freak out and need to come right up.
Based on the info I've been reading if I take a few deep breaths I should be
able to exhale and go right down.  Seems "science" says that it's too much
CO2 that makes you want to take a breath.  Build up your oxygen and you
shouldn't feel the need to breath until your CO2 builds up again.

Now, if I do this I still want to take a breath when I go down.  Is this
just a psychological thing because it's more normal for a person to inhale
to hold their breath than exhale?  Or, is my science all screwed up?

I guess this would be more of a snorkeling skill, but I want to make sure
I've got the science right.  Hope I explained it right.

Thanks

Sheldon
Veem - 03 Mar 2007 01:08 GMT
> Okay. I can't dive down much below the surface of the pool unless I exhale
> because I'm too buoyant.  If I exhale I'll go right down, but I can't seem
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Sheldon

I can't hold my breath or exhale (either one) and dive to the bottom of the
pool,
however, I am a very good diver, with no problems at all becoming and
staying
neutrally bouyant.  I don't kick up the bottom, and can easily control my
ascent
or descent.  Don't be concerned if you can't just dive down unassisted to
pick up
something on the bottom of the pool.
Greg Mossman - 03 Mar 2007 01:30 GMT
> I can't hold my breath or exhale (either one) and dive to the bottom of the
> pool,
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> pick up
> something on the bottom of the pool.

I'm curious.  Are you disabled iin some way?  I can't imagine not
being able to easily reach the bottom of the pool unless it's as salty
as the Dead Sea and you have no feet.
Veem - 03 Mar 2007 03:39 GMT
>> I can't hold my breath or exhale (either one) and dive to the bottom of
>> the
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> being able to easily reach the bottom of the pool unless it's as salty
> as the Dead Sea and you have no feet.

No, i mean in my pool.  i think my b--bs keep me from being able to dive to
the bottom when i am swimming
Greg Mossman - 03 Mar 2007 06:42 GMT
> >> I can't hold my breath or exhale (either one) and dive to the bottom of
> >> the
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> No, i mean in my pool.  i think my b--bs keep me from being able to dive to
> the bottom when i am swimming-

Why do you wear a bib when you dive?  If you eat lobster underwater,
the water will wash any spills away before they stain your wetsuit.

Seriously, I'm sorry for not recognizing that Veem is a feminine
name.  I'm not sure why it sounded manly to me but it did.  Usually
I'm victim of the opposite, making moves on a cute chicky moniker
until I find out it's really a hairy New Zealander in drag.

That rude obnoxious Grumman will now be around to ask you to post
pictures.  If you'd rather, just e-mail them to me privately.
-hh - 03 Mar 2007 12:55 GMT
> > No, i mean in my pool.  i think my b--bs keep me from being able to dive to
> > the bottom when i am swimming-
>
> That rude obnoxious Grumman will now be around to ask you to post
> pictures.  If you'd rather, just e-mail them to me privately.

If they're nice bibs, I'll host them on the rec.scuba photo gallery
page if you send me a copy.  They can even be clothed :-)

A bit more seriously,

A human body is pretty close to neutural buoyancy; a person's lung
volume is usually 'just enough' to push us over/under this buoyancy
balance point in freshwater.

Saltwater, being more dense, tends to create a slight positive buoyacy
bais.  So too do body compositions with (euphamistically) 'higher fat
content', since fat is less dense than muscle.

What to do about it?

One option is to alter your body's net effective density.  Exhaling is
the quickest way, but can have some complications and limitations.  If
nothing else, you have a smaller reserve of O2 in your lungs for your
blood to exchange with, so the time you can stay underwater is
reduced.

The second option is to wear some ballast.  Essentially the same thing
you do to counteract additional buoyancy from adding a wetsuit.

However, for both of the above, something to keep in mind is that the
air remaining in our lungs will be compressed by ambient pressures as
we go deeper, so as we freedive, our bodies lose some of its natural
buoyancy.  As such, even with a full breath of air, we may not
necessarily still be positively buoyant when we are, say, 20fsw or
deeper.  As such, adding extra ballast has to be done  cautiously.

The third - and IMO best for snorkeling - option is to "use what you
have" better.  In general, what I'm referring to here are techniques
such as surface dives.

The basic physics behind a surface dive is that you're lifting part of
your body (your feet) out of the water, where since they are now
sticking out in the air, they're not displacing water, so this will
act as a force to push the rest of your body further down into the
water.

Performed reasonably quickly, and you'll overshoot your neutral point,
which is a good thing because what you do with a surface dive is to
then kick your feet to drive you under.  Fortunately, the jacknifing
for a surface dive gets you pointed straight down with your fins
behind you, so you're now pointed in the direction you need to go with
your fins in the orientation to be the most efficient.

For a few body-types, just getting down to the bottom of the pool is
enough of a pressure change to compress the air in their lungs and
they can hang out at the bottom, looking for quarters in the drain.
Most of us will start to float back up as soon as we stop kicking,
although at varying degrees.  Sometimes, a short exhalation 'burp' can
be useful then to trade-off some O2 supply because it can reduce
exertion level (the demand for metabolizing the same O2).

Just be careful when experimenting.  You don't really need to
hyperventillate for any of this.

-hh
Sheldon - 04 Mar 2007 00:01 GMT
>> > No, i mean in my pool.  i think my b--bs keep me from being able to
>> > dive to
[quoted text clipped - 63 lines]
>
> -hh

Well, so far one decent answer to my question, although all have been
entertaining. :-)
Lee Bell - 04 Mar 2007 20:19 GMT
> Well, so far one decent answer to my question, although all have been
> entertaining. :-)

Yeah, but it's at least partly misleading if not incorrect.

>> A human body is pretty close to neutural buoyancy; a person's lung
>> volume is usually 'just enough' to push us over/under this buoyancy
>> balance point in freshwater.

Varies with the individual.  Fatty tissue (boobs included) is more buoyant
than muscle and bone.  When I was a younger man, the hardest part of passing
my Water Safety Instructor certification was floating.  I didn't float worth
a darn.  These days, it takes a couple lbs or more just to offset my
buoyancy.  Women tend to be more buoyant than men.  It's not a sure thing,
but is generally the case.  As I recall, women have one more fat layer than
men, presumably to protect a developing child from outside heat and cold.

>> Saltwater, being more dense, tends to create a slight positive buoyacy
>> bais.  So too do body compositions with (euphamistically) 'higher fat
>> content', since fat is less dense than muscle.

Saltwater causes everything to be more buoyant than in fresh water, but may
or may not make it positive.  Fat is not only less dense, it's so much less
dense that it floats.  Muscle and bone don't.  The less the fat, the less
the buoyancy.

>> However, for both of the above, something to keep in mind is that the
>> air remaining in our lungs will be compressed by ambient pressures as
>> we go deeper, so as we freedive, our bodies lose some of its natural
>> buoyancy.  As such, even with a full breath of air, we may not
>> necessarily still be positively buoyant when we are, say, 20fsw or
>> deeper.  As such, adding extra ballast has to be done  cautiously.

Absolutely correct and an important issue.  Having enough negative buoyancy
to descend easily is nice, but not if it means you'll have a hard time
getting back up.  Easy does it is more than just a good idea.

>> The third - and IMO best for snorkeling - option is to "use what you
>> have" better.  In general, what I'm referring to here are techniques
>> such as surface dives.

>> The basic physics behind a surface dive is that you're lifting part of
>> your body (your feet) out of the water, where since they are now
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>> behind you, so you're now pointed in the direction you need to go with
>> your fins in the orientation to be the most efficient.

Pretty good description.

>> For a few body-types, just getting down to the bottom of the pool is
>> enough of a pressure change to compress the air in their lungs and
>> they can hang out at the bottom, looking for quarters in the drain.

The air compresses the same no matter what your body type is.  For those
that are only slightly buoyant, they may become slightly negative.

>> Just be careful when experimenting.  You don't really need to
>> hyperventillate for any of this.

Hyperventillating is generally considered a poor idea.  On the other hand, I
used to do it all the time.  Guess I was just lucky.

Lee
Grumman-581 - 04 Mar 2007 23:22 GMT
> Pretty good description.

Agreed... In fact, quite a bit better than when I tried to describe it
previously... Growing up around water, it's one of those things that
you kind of learn to do without consciously thinking about it and
trying to describe it to someone who has never done it is a bit
difficult... He gave a very good description of it...
Veem - 03 Mar 2007 15:58 GMT
hey, no problem.  one advantage, when we had to tread water/float for the
dive pre-lims, I could go on forever

>> >> I can't hold my breath or exhale (either one) and dive to the bottom
>> >> of
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
> That rude obnoxious Grumman will now be around to ask you to post
> pictures.  If you'd rather, just e-mail them to me privately.
Grumman-581 - 03 Mar 2007 17:21 GMT
> hey, no problem.  one advantage, when we had to tread water/float for the
> dive pre-lims, I could go on forever

You make the claim in public, you have to post the pictures in
public... <dirty-old-man-grin>
Veem - 03 Mar 2007 17:45 GMT
http://home.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user&DERDB=ZG9tYWluPWNveCZ0bGQ9bmV0
JnNtb2tlcj0wJnNleHByZWY9MSZ1dHlwZT0yJnJlbGlnaW9uaWQ9MCZyZWdpb249JnBvc3RhbGNvZGU9
ODUwMzImbWFyaXRhbHN0YXR1cz1NJmluY29tZWlkPTAmaGVpZ2h0PTAmZ2VuZGVyPUYmZnJpZW5kcz0w
JmV0aG5pY2lkPS0xJmFnZT01NSZib2R5dHlwZWlkPS0xJmNoaWxkcmVuaWQ9NCZjb3VudHJ5PVVTJmRh
dGluZz0wJmRyaW5rZXI9MSZlZHVjYXRpb25pZD0yJnJlbGF0aW9uc2hpcHM9MCZuZXR3b3JraW5nPTAm
ZGlzcGxheW5hbWU9WlNBWlNBJmZyaWVuZGlkX2ludD00NjI1NTQ3NSZpcGFkZHJlc3M9JzEwLjQ0LjEy
OC41MCc=&setonlinenow=1&setrsi=1&Mytoken=018367AF-0657-458D-A4AF4E44F759A0788273
6256


>> hey, no problem.  one advantage, when we had to tread water/float for the
>> dive pre-lims, I could go on forever
>
> You make the claim in public, you have to post the pictures in
> public... <dirty-old-man-grin>
-hh - 03 Mar 2007 21:10 GMT
> http://home.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user&DERDB=ZG9tYWluPWNve...

That's only the page for yourself  You need to give out your 'public'
URL, which should have a format of:

http://www.myspace.com/{nine digit number}

It should be listed for you on your myspace homepage.

-hh
Paul Foley - 03 Mar 2007 01:36 GMT
> Okay. I can't dive down much below the surface of the pool unless I exhale
> because I'm too buoyant.  If I exhale I'll go right down, but I can't seem
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Sheldon

First, a warning: hyperventilating like that before a breath hold dive
is a great way to pass out and drown.  Don't do it.

You do a breath hold dive with a lungful of air.  This means you're
positively buoyant, which makes it hard to get down where you want to
go.  You just gotta work on it.  Technique is like this: you swim on the
surface till you see something interesting... a fish or, in the case of
the pool, a used bandaid.  First bend at the waist, head down.  Ideally
your torso will be vertical.  Then kick your legs straight up, pointed
at the sky.  Their weight will push you down fast... be ready to
equalize your ears (which ain't easy, in a head-down position).

This will probalby take a lot of practice.  But it is fun!
Danlw - 03 Mar 2007 02:25 GMT
>> Okay. I can't dive down much below the surface of the pool unless I
>> exhale because I'm too buoyant.  If I exhale I'll go right down, but I
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
>
> This will probalby take a lot of practice.  But it is fun!

Uh, unless your BMI is really off, you should go down with a full breath.
Try what Paul said, but if you can't go down then, better talk to your
instructor to see what the problem is.
Best of luck in the class!  Dan
Greg Mossman - 03 Mar 2007 06:47 GMT
> Uh, unless your BMI is really off, you should go down with a full breath.

Yeah, that's what I always tell the ladies.
Sheldon - 04 Mar 2007 00:06 GMT
>> Uh, unless your BMI is really off, you should go down with a full breath.
>
> Yeah, that's what I always tell the ladies.

Does it work? lol
Sheldon - 04 Mar 2007 00:05 GMT
>>> Okay. I can't dive down much below the surface of the pool unless I
>>> exhale because I'm too buoyant.  If I exhale I'll go right down, but I
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
> instructor to see what the problem is.
> Best of luck in the class!  Dan
Thanks.  And since I don't have "breasts," and I'm not overweight, I'm sure
that's not the problem.
Lee Bell - 04 Mar 2007 20:23 GMT
> Thanks.  And since I don't have "breasts," and I'm not overweight, I'm
> sure that's not the problem.

The issue is not your weight, but the proportion of fat to other tissues.
Fat floats, bone and muscle don't.  If you float, you've got enough fat to
more than offset the negative bone and muscle.  Most people are buoyant,
some more than others.  Only a few are negative.

Lee
Douglas W "Popeye" Frederick - 04 Mar 2007 20:37 GMT
>> Thanks.  And since I don't have "breasts," and I'm not overweight, I'm
>> sure that's not the problem.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> more than offset the negative bone and muscle.  Most people are buoyant,
> some more than others.  Only a few are negative.

 I can float with a six-pack on my chest, and keep my face above water.

 Fact.
Lee Bell - 04 Mar 2007 20:55 GMT
Douglas W Popeye Frederick wrote

>  I can float with a six-pack on my chest, and keep my face above water.

Probably comes from practicing so much.

Lee
Douglas W "Popeye" Frederick - 04 Mar 2007 21:16 GMT
> Douglas W Popeye Frederick wrote
>
>>  I can float with a six-pack on my chest, and keep my face above water.
>
> Probably comes from practicing so much.

 People say I have a buoyant personality.
Magilla - 04 Mar 2007 21:40 GMT
>>>  I can float with a six-pack on my chest, and keep my face above water.
>>
>> Probably comes from practicing so much.
>
>  People say I have a buoyant personality.

   Not in the least bit impressive.

   "Know" several people here who can float barely touching the water.

   Hot Air works wonders.
Douglas W "Popeye" Frederick - 05 Mar 2007 01:53 GMT
>>>>  I can float with a six-pack on my chest, and keep my face above water.
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
>    Hot Air works wonders.

:-)
Kari - 06 Mar 2007 00:13 GMT
On Mar 4, 1:37 pm, "Douglas W \"Popeye\" Frederick"
<Pop...@finalprotectivefire.com> wrote:

> >> Thanks.  And since I don't have "breasts," and I'm not overweight, I'm
> >> sure that's not the problem.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
>   Fact.

And dealing with the six-pack gives one something to do during the ten
minute float.  :-)
Douglas W "Popeye" Frederick - 06 Mar 2007 02:16 GMT
> On Mar 4, 1:37 pm, "Douglas W \"Popeye\" Frederick"
> <Pop...@finalprotectivefire.com> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> And dealing with the six-pack gives one something to do during the ten
> minute float.  :-)

 :-)

 How was your vaca?
Sheldon - 04 Mar 2007 00:03 GMT
>> Okay. I can't dive down much below the surface of the pool unless I
>> exhale because I'm too buoyant.  If I exhale I'll go right down, but I
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> First, a warning: hyperventilating like that before a breath hold dive is
> a great way to pass out and drown.  Don't do it.

Thanks for another good answer, and yes, I am aware of hyperventilation.  My
understanding is, and I'm sure it's different for everybody, is no more than
3 breaths before you go under.

> You do a breath hold dive with a lungful of air.  This means you're
> positively buoyant, which makes it hard to get down where you want to go.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> This will probalby take a lot of practice.  But it is fun!
Kurt - 05 Mar 2007 17:48 GMT
> Okay. I can't dive down much below the surface of the pool unless I exhale
> because I'm too buoyant.  If I exhale I'll go right down, but I can't seem
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> just a psychological thing because it's more normal for a person to inhale
> to hold their breath than exhale?  Or, is my science all screwed up?

If I exhale first, I'm good for less than 10 seconds.  Science or not,
you can stay down a LOT longer with a full lung.

Once you get a few feet down, water pressure will compress your body
and help you stay there.  If you haven't tried this, try rolling over
so that your legs are totally out of the water as you dive.  Once you
get down about 10 feet you should notice it's a lot easier to stay there.
Sheldon - 05 Mar 2007 23:32 GMT
>> Okay. I can't dive down much below the surface of the pool unless I
>> exhale because I'm too buoyant.  If I exhale I'll go right down, but I
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> so that your legs are totally out of the water as you dive.  Once you
> get down about 10 feet you should notice it's a lot easier to stay there.

I'll give it a try.  Thanks.
 
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