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Scuba Forum / General / February 2007More questions from the novice
Most of you said not to spend a lot of money at first, but I'm wondering if there is anything I should absolutely buy and not rent for my first open dives. Regulator? Wet suit? I will definitely get a snorkel and mask and practice with them in the pool. (I noticed a lot of swimmers using snorkels and masks in the pool.) Thanks again for all the great advice in my other post. Sheldon sheldon@sopris.net > Most of you said not to spend a lot of money at first, but I'm wondering > if there is anything I should absolutely buy and not rent for my first [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Sheldon > sheldon@sopris.net Do get a mask--and the best one to get is the one that fits, not a particular brand. Would also suggest a good pair of fins, but again, rent some to see what you like first. RELAX and have fun! Dan > Most of you said not to spend a lot of money at first, but I'm wondering > if there is anything I should absolutely buy and not rent for my first > open dives. Regulator? Wet suit? I will definitely get a snorkel and > mask and practice with them in the pool. (I noticed a lot of swimmers > using snorkels and masks in the pool.) Borrow everything you can except your mask and, perhaps, your wetsuit. Rent what you can't borrow. The problem with buying early is that you don't know what to buy. There's considerable variety in price and design in the scuba industry and, because the stuff is kind of expensive, the more experience you have with options, the better you'll be able to choose wisely the first time. Be particularly cautious about taking, without question, the advice of an instructor affiliated with a shop. They are often required to use and recommend what the shop sells. It's pretty common to find instructors that use equipment the shop sells for training sessions, but something entirely different when diving on their own. Your mask has to fit properly and the only way to ensure that it does is to try a bunch on until you find the right one for your face. Buy yours from a shop that has a large inventory and get help from someone in the shop that actually dives. Wetsuits also have to fit properly if they are to work properly. If they constantly leak water, they're not going to keep you warm in cold water. The first time you try a borrowed or rental suit will tell you if you're a standard size. If you're not, buy early or find some warm water to train in, whatever warm water means to you. Lee > > Most of you said not to spend a lot of money at first, but I'm wondering > > if there is anything I should absolutely buy and not rent for my first [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Borrow everything you can except your mask and, perhaps, your wetsuit. FWIW, some OW-I classes will require you to have "your own" Mask/ Snorkel/Fins. If you like snorkeling anyway, this isn't a bad combination to pick up, although there is the caveat that Lee alludes to about fins also being something subject to significant variation in cost, performance, preferences, etc. For the snorkel, look to go cheap, because if you're on scuba, your snorkel's not being used. > The problem with buying early is that you don't know > what to buy. There's considerable variety in price and design in the scuba > industry and, because the stuff is kind of expensive, the more experience > you have with options, the better you'll be able to choose wisely the first > time. Exactly. > Be particularly cautious about taking, without question, the advice > of an instructor affiliated with a shop. They are often required to use and > recommend what the shop sells. It's pretty common to find instructors that > use equipment the shop sells for training sessions, but something entirely > different when diving on their own. Unfortunately. > Your mask has to fit properly and the only way to ensure that it does is to > try a bunch on until you find the right one for your face. Buy yours from a [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > you if you're a standard size. If you're not, buy early or find some warm > water to train in, whatever warm water means to you. The mastk is always #1. Also be aware that for some people, a mask that seems to fit OK in the store doesn't work in the pool - - sometimes this is due to a change in face shape from putting the regulator in the mouth (a snorkel can do for a quick pool test session). When it comes to thermal protection, wetsuits need to be snug but not tight, as you don't want to constrict breathing. Also, if its cold enough to need gloves, they shouldn't have ANY holes in them...this defeats the objective of isolating the water to minimize water exchange. FYI, I've heard of some diveshops requiring their students to buy gloves too. Their rationale is probably that the students tear them up in training, but that's really their problem as a gear rental supplier, not yours. But it is also another "nickle & dime". Ditto for an OW-I class course fee not including the Textbook...its just another way to try to lower the perceived total cost of the trraining service that they're selling. If you're a good consumer, you should simply ask "what ELSE do I have to have to complete this training?" when deciding to sign up for the class or not from each diveshop that you survey...and write it down in a list. What you'll eventually find is that some training classes might include a lot of rental gear, whereas others might even try to make you pay for the air in the tank that's used in the pool sessions. Overall, the general expectations is that the scuba gear (and air) used in the pool sessions are part of the price, but because the Agency Standards don't detail how the Instructor should set up his rate fees, there can be the occasional "gotcha". -hh Hugh brought up the issue of what you get for your training dollar, an excellent question that he provided with a good answer. It reminded me of something, however, that may prove to be useful. Environmental groups seem to like to have events where they auction things off or provide door prizes. It's not unusual for dive shops to contribute entry level training courses to such events, particularly those that have an aquatic or marine them, save the reefs, clean up the water, etc. Keep an eye out for such events and consider visiting them, both in support of the environment we all live and dive in, and for the bargains that may be available. My brother in law bought my wife's entry level training, including all equipment, texts, etc. except for her mask, fins, snorkel, weight belt and open water boat fees, for $50 and gave it to her for Christmas. I bought one for the same amount at an auction to raise funds for a local snorkeler who was injured by a passing boat and gave it to one of my friends. Even 15 years ago, even in Florida, where there is a dive shop on every other corner, $50 was way below market for open water training. Lee > > Most of you said not to spend a lot of money at first, but I'm wondering > > if there is anything I should absolutely buy and not rent for my first [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > Lee I'd like to add that a hood or beany cap can make a big difference in how warm you feel in the water. I find I can use a thinner or short sleaved suit when I use a beany. And a good beany is cheap compared to a thicker suit. And besides, with a beany and a goggle style mask you get to look like a WW1 pilot. :-) "capt.bill11" <capt.bill11@verizon.net> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: :And besides, with a beany and a goggle style mask you get to look like :a WW1 pilot. :-) Still need a silk scarf though. Dan Bracuk If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure. "capt.bill11" <capt.bill11@verizon.net> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: :And besides, with a beany and a goggle style mask you get to look like :a WW1 pilot. :-) Still need a silk scarf though. Dan Bracuk If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure. > "capt.bill11" <capt.bill11@verizon.net> pounded away at his keyboard > resulting in: > :And besides, with a beany and a goggle style mask you get to look like > :a WW1 pilot. :-) Or Snoopy I had a nice talk with the instructor today. He agrees with most of you, and says he will bring a bunch of different masks and other items to the class so we can try them out before purchasing, and we are not required to purchase anything for the class, except the training material and pool time. He said if I want to I could purchase a cheap snorkel to practice breathing through my mouth and not my nose. He also said not to dive to the bottom of the pool with swim goggles on because you can't equalize the pressure in a swim goggle and it could hurt your eyes. As for my contact lenses he said not to wear them in class -- bring your glasses. However, once we start wearing a mask full-time I should be able to wear my contact lenses with no problems. Of course, if I lose my mask I lose my lenses, too. So, I got a cheap snorkel and mask set from Amazon, and will upgrade in the class once I know better what I want and what fits best, as most of you have recommended. I guess we will be able to try out all the stuff he has in the pool. I got a good "gut" feeling talking to him on the phone, and he said he runs a class that's a little tougher than most, as he really wants us to be prepared when we go for our certification, which he will conduct if we want. I guess it's in a hole somewhere in Utah or New Mexico. If I could have my certification "before" I go on vacation that would be great, but on vacation I will definitely go out with a qualified group or tour. Thanks again. Sheldon > I had a nice talk with the instructor today. He agrees with most of you, > and says he will bring a bunch of different masks and other items to the > class so we can try them out before purchasing, and we are not required to > purchase anything for the class, except the training material and pool time. Good sign. > He said if I want to I could purchase a cheap snorkel to practice breathing > through my mouth and not my nose. He also said not to dive to the bottom of > the pool with swim goggles on because you can't equalize the pressure in a > swim goggle and it could hurt your eyes. Normally, the swim goggles warning is that they will "gouge" into your face, causing discomfort, but if you persist, it is possible to cause some eye injury, typically starting with minor ruptures of blood vessels ('bloodshot eyes' look). I'm not sure offhand how deep you would have to go to incur a real risk, but overall, goggles are for nothing more than swimming laps, so its not the right tool for the job: he's right in that its best to simply avoid it. > As for my contact lenses he said > not to wear them in class -- bring your glasses. However, once we start > wearing a mask full-time I should be able to wear my contact lenses with no > problems. Of course, if I lose my mask I lose my lenses, too. Another good call, although do remember to also not wear your contacts during your OW checkout dives, since you'll be expected to demonstrate mask-clearing skills. > I guess it's in a hole somewhere in Utah or New Mexico. I know that there's a "Blue Hole" for scuba diving in New Mexico: <http://www.newmexico.org/place/loc/destinations/page/DB-place/place/ 118.html> ...and I think Ron Lee has dived there. Ron, you around? -hh >> I had a nice talk with the instructor today. He agrees with most of you, >> and says he will bring a bunch of different masks and other items to the [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > > -hh Thanks for the info. Sounds like an interesting dive. > problems. Of course, if I lose my mask I lose my lenses, too. Not necessarily. I did all of my pool sessions wearing contacts (disposables), and never lost 'em in a flooded mask. Just kept my eyes closed. Had mask flooding problems in the ocean too, (purge valve leaked like a seive) and never lost a lens. > > problems. Of course, if I lose my mask I lose my lenses, too. > > Not necessarily. I did all of my pool sessions wearing contacts > (disposables), and never lost 'em in a flooded mask. Just kept my eyes > closed. Had mask flooding problems in the ocean too, (purge valve > leaked like a seive) and never lost a lens. I've briefly opened my eyes in water, both fresh and salt without losing a lens. The difference in salinity between the eyes own saline solution (tears) and fresh or ocean water is often enough to keep the contacts from floating off too easily. For longer exposures, open your eyes just a crack. Your eyelids should hold the lens in place but allow you to see better than if they were closed altogether. Still, being able to do mask exercises with eyes closed should demonstrate to the instructor that you have a good mastery of the skill. Caveat: Given the presence of bacteria and toxic substances in ocean water and even more abundantly in fresh, it's probably a good idea to sterilize the lenses (or dispose of them for disposables) soon after exposure to water to prevent a nasty infection from setting in. I've never had a problem, but you can find anecdotal evidence if you look for it and some people recommend against wearing contacts for this very reason. Also, non-gas-permeable hard lenses are a definite no-no for diving. >> > problems. Of course, if I lose my mask I lose my lenses, too. >> [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > Also, non-gas-permeable hard lenses are a definite no-no for diving. My optometrist also said soft lenses are a no-no for diving. It appears the lenses do soak up bacteria and can be quite harmful. If you must use soft lenses she suggested disposible. I currently use gas-permeable. My soon to be dive instructor also was against soft lenses. <snip> Pet the Pony, and get a prescription mask. > My optometrist also said soft lenses are a no-no for diving. It appears the > lenses do soak up bacteria and can be quite harmful. If you must use soft > lenses she suggested disposible. I currently use gas-permeable. My soon to > be dive instructor also was against soft lenses. Like I said, there is some anecdotal evidence of infection, mainly from fresh water. There is a much greater body of evidence of divers wearing contact lenses and suffering absolutely no harm. My eyes have survived 487 such immersions to date, 8 of which were in a local lake that's really nasty. While I made sure to dispose of my lenses after the lake dives, I've worn my lenses for multiple dives on multiple days on dive trips as long as 11 days and have never had a single problem with my lenses. Not only that, but I'm hardly the only one who wears contacts while diving. I use disposables, but only dispose of them every month or so. I do take them out and sterilize them every night. It's also imperative to bring extra lenses, especially on trips where you probably won't be able to find replacements too easily. That almost mandates disposable lenses. The alternative is the prescription mask. If you can't wear disposables because of astigmatism, etc., this may be a better option than soft lenses. The problems with prescription masks are: (1) you'd better have a prescription back-up, especially on long expensive dive trips, since masks are hardly indestructable; (2) you'll need to balance wearing glasses and the mask in order to see anything and, since there's not always a convenient place to leave your glasses, this often means wearing the mask on your face in the hot sun while the rest of us are enjoying the breeze on our eyeballs. Janna has astigmatism and doesn't tolerate toric soft contacts very well. She has a prescription mask and a newer one that she doesn't like as much as a backup, and carries contacts for an extra backup just in case. She's happy enough with the arrangement, but I often feel bad for her having to wear her mask on the boat in order to see anything, or when she doesn't have her mask on and I point out something interesting like a pod of whales and she can't see them. So you have a choice to make, but don't necessarily listen to your optometrist who is best at simply measuring you for glasses. If you really want a medical opinion, consult an opthalmologist who also dives and see what they personally do (or recommend for family members, etc.) and whether there's anything special about your eyes that would make contacts lenses a bad idea. >From Scuba-Doc, which pretty much mirrors what I said. I think "consciously narrowing the palpebral fissure" is what I meant by "squinting": Contact Lenses Soft contact lenses are preferred. No corneal edema. Soft contacts more susceptible to marine infection. Use disposable lenses. Hard lenses cause corneal edema during decompression and after dives. [Prevented by the use of a 'fenestrated' hard lens]* Changes are apparently caused by nitrogen bubbles in the pre corneal film of tears resulting in epithelial edema. A good face mask seal minimizes loss of lens during a dive. Consciously narrowing the palpebral fissure can help in decreasing the possibility of a contact lens floating off of the surface of the eye should the mask become flooded. Reference: Cornea-contact lens interaction in the aquatic environment. Brown MS; Siegel IM, Department of Ophthalmology, New York University Medical Center, NY 10016, USA., CLAO J, 23(4):237-42 1997 Oct http://www.scuba-doc.com/diveye.htm >> My optometrist also said soft lenses are a no-no for diving. It appears >> the [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > problem with my lenses. Not only that, but I'm hardly the only one > who wears contacts while diving. I guess the same can be said for spitting on your lenses to clean and wet them. People have been doing it for years with no harm, but a lot of people have almost gone blind from the practice. My research says that GP lenses are the way to go, but you also have to use a decent scuba mask so you can equalize the pressure in your mask. If my plan was to do a lot of deep dives I would definitely go for prescription mask. Also, many optometrists are just as good as ophthalmologists regarding information about your eyes. What you really need is to find either one that is a diver. Also, those of us who wear modern GP lenses can tell you that they do allow quite a bit of oxygen through them, not to mention the fact that they float around quite a bit on your eye. > I guess the same can be said for spitting on your lenses to clean and wet > them. People have been doing it for years with no harm, but a lot of people > have almost gone blind from the practice. Name one. >> I guess the same can be said for spitting on your lenses to clean and wet >> them. People have been doing it for years with no harm, but a lot of > people >> have almost gone blind from the practice. > > Name one. Well, I've seen photos, but can't name anyone is particular. > >> I guess the same can be said for spitting on your lenses to clean and wet > >> them. People have been doing it for years with no harm, but a lot of [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Well, I've seen photos, but can't name anyone is particular. Oh, yeah, the photos. My friend's brother's aunt's uncle saw a photo of a real alien once. Apparently it had gone blind in its spacecraft after wiping its goggles with spit and crash landed somewhere in the New Mexico desert near the Blue Hole, but it's very hush hush as you can understand. If it gets out that people or aliens can go blind that way, who knows what panic it might cause? > I guess the same can be said for spitting on your lenses to clean and wet > them. People have been doing it for years with no harm, but a lot of people > have almost gone blind from the practice. Going blind? But I thought that was from . . . uh, never mind. Those people sure have some toxic spit. What happens if you kiss them? > My research says that GP lenses are the way to go, but you also have to use > a decent scuba mask so you can equalize the pressure in your mask. If my > plan was to do a lot of deep dives I would definitely go for prescription > mask. Also, many optometrists are just as good as ophthalmologists > regarding information about your eyes. What you really need is to find > either one that is a diver. I don't need to find either. I just wear my disposable soft contacts when I dive and don't give it another thought. I haven't gone blind yet, or suffered from hairy palms. As for "equalizing the pressure" in your mask, I really think your research is a bit suspect. Most of us have a special pressure equalizing device built into our faces - it's called a nose and it works with just about any mask on the market (just not with goggles). >> I guess the same can be said for spitting on your lenses to clean and wet >> them. People have been doing it for years with no harm, but a lot of [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Those people sure have some toxic spit. What happens if you kiss > them? You die. Instantly. :-) >> My research says that GP lenses are the way to go, but you also have to >> use [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > equalizing device built into our faces - it's called a nose and it > works with just about any mask on the market (just not with goggles). That's what I meant. Unfortunately, you nose is not connected in any way to standard swim goggles. It does, however, become a part of the equalization process with a full scuba mask that covers your nose. >> As for "equalizing the pressure" in your mask, I really think your >> research is a bit suspect. Most of us have a special pressure >> equalizing device built into our faces - it's called a nose and it >> works with just about any mask on the market (just not with goggles). > That's what I meant. Unfortunately, you nose is not connected in any way > to standard swim goggles. It does, however, become a part of the > equalization process with a full scuba mask that covers your nose. Without meaning to be as abrupt as this is going to sound, goggles have no relevance to anything in this discussion. They are not for snorkeling, free diving, or scuba specifically because they can not be equalized. If it's deep enough for you to feel pressure in your ears, which most pools are, it is deep enough for the same pressure to be affecting your eyes. Lee >>> As for "equalizing the pressure" in your mask, I really think your >>> research is a bit suspect. Most of us have a special pressure [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Lee Good point. Thanks. > My research says that GP lenses are the way to go, but you also have to > use a decent scuba mask so you can equalize the pressure in your mask. The quality of the mask has nothing to do with being able to equalize pressure in the mask. That's entirely you. You do it through your nose. That's not to say the quality of the mask isn't important, it's just not relevant to this issue. > If my plan was to do a lot of deep dives I would definitely go for > prescription mask. Also, many optometrists are just as good as > ophthalmologists regarding information about your eyes. What you really > need is to find either one that is a diver. Why only if you were going to do deep dives. It's nice to be able to see when shallow too and, if you are near sighted, which is the case with most that wear glasses, you can get off the shelf lenses for some masks for a reasonable price. Lee > > My research says that GP lenses are the way to go, but you also have to > > use a decent scuba mask so you can equalize the pressure in your mask. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > that wear glasses, you can get off the shelf lenses for some masks for a > reasonable price. Bingo. I have both contacts, which would allow me to dive with a rental if I had to, and prescrition lenses, and I prefer to dive with my prescrition lensed mask. Only deep is a flashing red light. Thumb it in the parking lot. >> > My research says that GP lenses are the way to go, but you also have to >> > use a decent scuba mask so you can equalize the pressure in your mask. [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > lensed > mask. Thanks for the opinion, and it makes sense. A friend of mine said he went diving with his glasses and the mask sealed right around the ear pieces on the glasses. > Thanks for the opinion, and it makes sense. A friend of mine said he went > diving with his glasses and the mask sealed right around the ear pieces on > the glasses. Yeah, well, friends say a lot of things that turn out to be a bit different than represented. Even if this one is true, I would not count on duplicating it. Lee >> Thanks for the opinion, and it makes sense. A friend of mine said he >> went diving with his glasses and the mask sealed right around the ear [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Lee I hear ya, but it would be interesting if someone could come up with a mask that did seal around glasses. > I hear ya, but it would be interesting if someone could come up with a mask > that did seal around glasses. Why? >>>Thanks for the opinion, and it makes sense. A friend of mine said he >>>went diving with his glasses and the mask sealed right around the ear [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > I hear ya, but it would be interesting if someone could come up with a mask > that did seal around glasses. Chewing gum rulez. Matthias >>>>Thanks for the opinion, and it makes sense. A friend of mine said he >>>>went diving with his glasses and the mask sealed right around the ear [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Matthias :-) > I hear ya, but it would be interesting if someone could come up with a > mask that did seal around glasses. There have been masks made that hold glasses inside. I assume you take the temples off. I don't think they caught on very well. > Yeah, well, friends say a lot of things that turn out to be a bit different > than represented. Even if this one is true, I would not count on > duplicating it. I can see how some of the very thin wire frame glasses *might* have minimal leakage around the temples (at least as compared to other glasses), but it's likely that there is still going to be some leakage... I guess it just boils down to whether you are comfortable with that amount of leakage... Of course, some of us with mustaches and beards just take a certain amount of leakage for granted... >I can see how some of the very thin wire frame glasses *might* have >minimal leakage around the temples (at least as compared to other >glasses), but it's likely that there is still going to be some >leakage... I guess it just boils down to whether you are comfortable >with that amount of leakage... Of course, some of us with mustaches >and beards just take a certain amount of leakage for granted... "Suspension Eyeware", if they're still in business, does frames where the earpieces connect to the temple via two threads.  SignatureRon (user ron in domain spamblocked.com) > "Suspension Eyeware", if they're still in business, does frames > where the earpieces connect to the temple via two threads. Damn, that sounds like it could *hurt*... Drywall screw or machine head screw threads? >> My research says that GP lenses are the way to go, but you also have to >> use a decent scuba mask so you can equalize the pressure in your mask. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > That's not to say the quality of the mask isn't important, it's just not > relevant to this issue. When I say quality, I should have said a mask that fits properly. >> If my plan was to do a lot of deep dives I would definitely go for >> prescription mask. Also, many optometrists are just as good as [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Lee My doc already said my astigmatism will make it difficult for me to use "off the shelf" lenses in a mask. However, I can give it a try for not much money with my swim goggles and see how it works. I still think the mask and RGP lenses are a good compromise, but I will definitely look into prescription scuba masks. Makes sense, as if you have a problem with a contact down there you may as well be blind. > My doc already said my astigmatism will make it difficult for me to use > "off the shelf" lenses in a mask. However, I can give it a try for not > much money with my swim goggles and see how it works. It depends on how much of an astigmatism you have. If you can see, at any distance, without glasses, you should also be able to see with off the shelf lenses. It may not be perfect, but you're not trying to read fine print or things on the horizon while diving. Lee > My doc already said my astigmatism will make it difficult for me to use "off > the shelf" lenses in a mask. However, I can give it a try for not much > money with my swim goggles and see how it works. I still think the mask and > RGP lenses are a good compromise, but I will definitely look into > prescription scuba masks. Makes sense, as if you have a problem with a > contact down there you may as well be blind. I have accute astigmatism and I'm getting old. My GF and I both use prescription masks. Considered in the context of how much money we've spent on gear, the cost is negligible. I even have prescription lenses in my backup mask. While we're talking about prescription masks, there is a guy in Minnesota or Wisconsin who makes really nice bifocal mask lenses - does anyone know who he is and have contact information? >> My doc already said my astigmatism will make it difficult for me to use >> "off [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Minnesota or Wisconsin who makes really nice bifocal mask lenses - does > anyone know who he is and have contact information? I know they make lenses that you can stick in your goggles for people who are farsighted. Turns your goggle into a bifocal. > I know they make lenses that you can stick in your goggles for people who > are farsighted. Turns your goggle into a bifocal. You need to understand there is a difference between goggles and a diving mask, other than the word, the two are *not* interchangeable. >> I know they make lenses that you can stick in your goggles for people who >> are farsighted. Turns your goggle into a bifocal. > > You need to understand there is a difference between goggles and a diving > mask, other than the word, the two are *not* interchangeable. I understand. I meant mask. "Sheldon" <sheldon@XXXXXXXXsopris.net> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: :I understand. I meant mask. After you're certified, you'll be allowed to say goggles again, to annoy the purists. Dan Bracuk If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure. > "Sheldon" <shel...@XXXXXXXXsopris.net> pounded away at his keyboard > resulting in: [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > After you're certified, you'll be allowed to say goggles again, to > annoy the purists. Fine with me, just so long as he doesn't say flippers. > I know they make lenses that you can stick in your goggles for people who > are farsighted. Turns your goggle into a bifocal. I know they make them for masks. I tried the ones that stick on my static cling, or magic of some kind. They worked OK for a while, but didn't really stay where they were supposed to be very well. You get some interesting effects by looking through a bifocal that you didn't know was there. Lee >> My doc already said my astigmatism will make it difficult for me to use "off >> the shelf" lenses in a mask. However, I can give it a try for not much [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >Minnesota or Wisconsin who makes really nice bifocal mask lenses - does >anyone know who he is and have contact information? I know an optometrist who lives in western Wisconsin who dives with bifocal mask lenses. I don't know if he's the same guy. His name is Vince and I don't know his last name. If it isn't him, I'll bet he knows who he is. I'll ask around. > I know an optometrist who lives in western Wisconsin who dives with > bifocal mask lenses. I don't know if he's the same guy. His name is > Vince and I don't know his last name. If it isn't him, I'll bet he > knows who he is. I'll ask around. Thanks. I'm pretty sure the guy is in Minnesota, and his name might be Ron. The bifocals he makes look like regular bifocal lenses; they don't have a separate lense glued in. > My doc already said my astigmatism will make it difficult for me to use "off > the shelf" lenses in a mask. My Cylinder corrections for astigmatism have been as high as -1.75 (on top of the sphere correction for myopia), but I've been using straight diopter 'drop-in' (off the shelf) mask lenses for years, with no problem. I'll probably go to a custom perscription mask 'one of these years' because of the additional need for bifocals, but in the meantime, what I have now has been working fine. Overall, I suspect that the reason for your doc's comment is predicated on his assumption that you need 'perfect' correction for when you're in the water. The reality is that the 80/20 rule still works. -hh > When I say quality, I should have said a mask that fits properly. An improperly fitting mask equalizes automatically as you clear the water out of it. It's the properly fitting mask that one often only remembers to equalize after one's face starts feeling like it's in a vise. > My doc already said my astigmatism will make it difficult for me to use "off > the shelf" lenses in a mask. However, I can give it a try for not much > money with my swim goggles and see how it works. I still think the mask and > RGP lenses are a good compromise, but I will definitely look into > prescription scuba masks. Makes sense, as if you have a problem with a > contact down there you may as well be blind. Yep. A lot of this discussion really depends on how the diver tolerates contacts in general. Janna normally doesn't tolerate contacts very well. Her eyes are too dry. She has gas permeables as a backup and actually dives just fine with them because of the humid underwater environment, but she hates wearing them on the boat (wind) and hates even more having to put them in her eyes while on the boat. I, on the other hand, tolerate contacts very well and I can wear simple disposables since I'm just near-sighted (so far) which are very comfortable for me. Therefore, while she has two prescription masks, I just bring along a good supply of disposables (even though I've never lost one on a dive yet). Contact problems can and do happen. I've blinked the wrong way and had a contact pop out once (not on a dive, thankfully). Usually, however, the problem is when an irritant gets in my eye. Thankfully, with a mask on your face, irritants are unlikely unless they're introduced before the dive (poisonous spit?) or during (sea water), so because of the closed humid environment, problems with contacts are probably less likely at depth as long as you rinse your mask well before donning it and it doesn't flood too much. The best solution for you is probably a combination: a prescription mask with contacts as a back-up, or vice-versa. You'll have to buy two masks, making one of them prescription, but a back-up mask is always a good idea anyhow. You'll find your preference soon enough. "Greg Mossman" <mossman@qnet.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: :The best solution for you is probably a combination: a prescription :mask with contacts as a back-up, or vice-versa. You'll have to buy :two masks, making one of them prescription, but a back-up mask is :always a good idea anyhow. You'll find your preference soon enough. A better solution is to go with the contacts if you can. Then you'll be able to see when you're not in the water. Dan Bracuk If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure. >I had a nice talk with the instructor today. He agrees with most of you, >and says he will bring a bunch of different masks and other items to the [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > Sheldon Actually, speaking from experience, losing a masks does not always mean losing contacts. I have had a mask off several times while wearing them and only once lost "a" contact, not both. I did squint down to help keep them in, but seemed to work. I would recommend lasic though--works wonders! Regards, Dan > Actually, speaking from experience, losing a masks does > not always mean losing contacts... The keywords being "not always" :-O It can easily be that its simply not worth the risk. For example, back when I was able to wear contacts, I could only wear a specialty semi-rigid lens, which were $150 per lens, so a loss was quite a financial hit - - its not like the cheap disposables of today. > I would recommend lasic though--works wonders! For younger folks. When you get into your mid-40's and presbyopia starts to kick in for many of us, you're probably going to need to get bifocals, even if the "top half" are zero correction because of lasic. -hh >>Actually, speaking from experience, losing a masks does >>not always mean losing contacts... [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > -hh I'm there - the lasic created me to 20/20 in the right and 20/15 in the left - but then that reading, shaving, fingernail thing is a real bitch. I put one of the magnifiers on my left lens to help read my computer and Citizens Aqualung > For younger folks. When you get into your mid-40's and presbyopia > starts to kick in for many of us, you're probably going to need to get > bifocals, even if the "top half" are zero correction because of > lasic. People still dive when they're that old? Wow. I can understand how your Depends still works in a drysuit, but isn't the mouthpiece uncomfortable with your dentures? >> For younger folks. When you get into your mid-40's and presbyopia >> starts to kick in for many of us, you're probably going to need to get [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > your Depends still works in a drysuit, but isn't the mouthpiece > uncomfortable with your dentures? Well, we would take them out, if only we could remember where we put them. >>> For younger folks. When you get into your mid-40's and presbyopia >>> starts to kick in for many of us, you're probably going to need to get [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Well, we would take them out, if only we could remember where we put them. :-) Have your lovely missus kick his butt... >>>> For younger folks. When you get into your mid-40's and presbyopia >>>> starts to kick in for many of us, you're probably going to need to get [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Have your lovely missus kick his butt... Guess she could remove his teeth as well.. She said hello, and come by for dinner again. > > For younger folks. When you get into your mid-40's and presbyopia > > starts to kick in for many of us, you're probably going to need to get > > bifocals, even if the "top half" are zero correction because of > > lasic. > > People still dive when they're that old? Even older. A guy I used to dive with certified two 70 year old sisters a few years ago. Perhaps you dated them. >I can understand how your Depends still works in a drysuit, but > isn't the mouthpiece uncomfortable with your dentures? I wouldn't know. Perhaps your Guamanian 'Fighting Fanclub' could tell you what its like to have to gum your food. -hh > Even older. A guy I used to dive with certified two 70 year old > sisters a few years ago. Perhaps you dated them. No, they had too many teeth. I dated their mother. > I wouldn't know. Perhaps your Guamanian 'Fighting Fanclub' could tell > you what its like to have to gum your food. Speaking of whom, I wonder if he/they got deported? >> Actually, speaking from experience, losing a masks does >> not always mean losing contacts... [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > -hh Check out "wave front" lasic. As a much older (now, what was I saying?) person, I was in the 20/800 range and now with slight "mono-vision" 20/20 right eye, 20/35 left, I can read a newspaper, and the monitor, with no glasses. If only I could remember..... Distance vision is great as well. PS: Age hint--got my OW card in 1968. ;) Dan > PS: Age hint--got my OW card in 1968. ;) What a coincidence. I got my certificate that year too. My birth certificate. "Sheldon" <sheldon@XXXXXXXXsopris.net> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: : As for my contact lenses he said :not to wear them in class -- bring your glasses. However, once we start :wearing a mask full-time I should be able to wear my contact lenses with no :problems. Of course, if I lose my mask I lose my lenses, too. That's good advice, listen to him. Don't wear contacts until you have done your 4 certification dives. When you lose/flood your mask you may or may not lose your contacts. I've lost a couple over the years. However, during your lessons and at least one of your cert dives, you'll be taking the mask completely off underwater. No sense tempting fate. Dan Bracuk If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure. > "Sheldon" <sheldon@XXXXXXXXsopris.net> pounded away at his keyboard > resulting in: [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups > ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- I lost my entering the water - backwards roll - squeezing my eye shut. once I could see at least one (maybe both - can't remember) inside my mask - I refrained from clearing in the usual manner and saved the contact or contact. > When you lose/flood your mask you may or may not lose your contacts. > I've lost a couple over the years. However, during your lessons and > at least one of your cert dives, you'll be taking the mask completely > off underwater. No sense tempting fate. If you have a problem doing the underwater mask doff/don with your eyes closed, that means you can't find your head with your hands. Not a good sign. >> When you lose/flood your mask you may or may not lose your contacts. >> I've lost a couple over the years. However, during your lessons and [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > eyes closed, that means you can't find your head with your hands. Not > a good sign. Excellent point. "Sheldon" <sheldon@XXXXXXXXsopris.net> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: :Most of you said not to spend a lot of money at first, but I'm wondering if :there is anything I should absolutely buy and not rent for my first open :dives. Regulator? Wet suit? I will definitely get a snorkel and mask and :practice with them in the pool. (I noticed a lot of swimmers using snorkels :and masks in the pool.) Kinda depends on whether you are going to do these dive locally or if you are going to go somewhere nice. Dan Bracuk If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure. > "Sheldon" <sheldon@XXXXXXXXsopris.net> pounded away at his keyboard > resulting in: [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Dan Bracuk > If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure. I live in Colorado. I don't think jumping in the lake at the golf course is considered a dive. I may finish my certification at the Blue Hole, and then it's off to the tropics for some warm weather and sunshine. :-) I don't really want to do any deep dives. I just want to be free of a snorkel and enjoy the view. "Sheldon" <sheldon@XXXXXXXXsopris.net> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: :I live in Colorado. I don't think jumping in the lake at the golf course is :considered a dive. I may finish my certification at the Blue Hole, The one in Belize or the one in Palau. I suggest the latter. Actually, for a certification dive, maybe not. Nice spot but it might be a bit much for a cert dive. There are easier dive sites out there. Dan Bracuk If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure. > "Sheldon" <sheldon@XXXXXXXXsopris.net> pounded away at his keyboard > resulting in: [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Dan Bracuk > If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure. The Boring er, Blue hole (Belize) would not be a good dive for check-out, or even a novice--you should have at least 20 to thirty dives, and then only with a small group and good dive master. There are many other dives around in Belize that would be great for a check-out and fun as well. Just my opinion of course. Dan >> "Sheldon" <sheldon@XXXXXXXXsopris.net> pounded away at his keyboard >> resulting in: [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Dan I think there's something to be said for being with your original instructor, for your OW dives and certification, assuming he or she is good and you like them. I'd just assume head off to Belize with my certification in my pocket, and continue my education without having to worry about that part of diving. Besides, for a novice, the Blue Hole in NM sounds kinda of interesting. > I think there's something to be said for being with your original > instructor, for your OW dives and certification, assuming he or she is good > and you like them. I'd just assume head off to Belize with my certification > in my pocket, and continue my education without having to worry about that > part of diving. On the other hand, a different instructor might offer a different perspective than your original instructor and you might learn something new. Your first instructor is only going to reinforce skills he's already taught you in the pool sessions, but a new instructor might have a different way of doing things, possibly even a better way. > Besides, for a novice, the Blue Hole in NM sounds kinda of > interesting. That it does. It's supposed to be the best diving in Colorado. >> I think there's something to be said for being with your original >> instructor, for your OW dives and certification, assuming he or she is [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > instructor might have a different way of doing things, possibly even a > better way. Good point. Still, I don't plan on renting a boat and going out by myself, so any diving I do will hopefully be with a group of others, including an instructor, and every dive will be a chance to learn new stuff, often from the other divers. > Good point. Still, I don't plan on renting a boat and going out by myself, > so any diving I do will hopefully be with a group of others, including an > instructor, and every dive will be a chance to learn new stuff, often from > the other divers That works too, as long as the other divers know what they're doing. A lot of times they do, but you still find extremes. I was diving with Bob Ling in Cozumel, a long time poster here with a rather infamous reputation. His manner of diving is to occasionally go deep at the beginning of a dive, real deep (just shy of 200'). The DM knows him and his propensities, but there was a diver on our boat that didn't and almost went down after Bob until we convinced him to ignore what Bob was doing and come back to the rest of the group. Moral: if you're that new diver, don't necessarily follow someone down to 200' even if that someone is your buddy. An example on the other extreme is our Keys shallow reef dive on the morning prior to Dive with Greg II on the Spiegel Grove. A couple had descended prior to us and when I got in the water, I noticed them actually standing on the reef. Now much of the reef is dead there, but it's no excuse. Had Andy, Janna, and I followed in the their footsteps, literally, we too would have been walking on the reef. Thankfully we knew better. Moral: when you're a new diver, don't necessarily learn to walk on the reef simply because other divers are. So how else do you learn what else not to do underwater? Read rec.scuba of course. >> Good point. Still, I don't plan on renting a boat and going out by >> myself, [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > So how else do you learn what else not to do underwater? Read > rec.scuba of course. Well, this group has been great for info, but I have no intention of doing 200 foot dives. I know, never say never, but my goal is simply to enjoy the view down there and be free of a snorkel. My girlfriend, who is certified and would be my "buddy" most of the time, likes to go to places where you only have to go down around 35 feet. Her theory is that if anything happens you can get up to the surface quickly with a minimum of problems. I guess if I lived in an area that was more water friendly I might get far more involved in the sport. > Well, this group has been great for info, but I have no intention of doing > 200 foot dives. I know, never say never, but my goal is simply to enjoy [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > anything happens you can get up to the surface quickly with a minimum of > problems. Be careful of what you wish for. "get up to the surface quickly" is almost never the best answer, even in 35 feet of water . . . make that especially in 35 feet of water. > I guess if I lived in an area that was more water friendly I might get far > more involved in the sport. Move. >> Well, this group has been great for info, but I have no intention of >> doing 200 foot dives. I know, never say never, but my goal is simply to [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > almost never the best answer, even in 35 feet of water . . . make that > especially in 35 feet of water. I realize that, but an accent from 35ft would not require the multitude of stops required from a deep dive. If I recall, a slow accent and only one stop at around 15 feet. Of course, a lot would depend on how long you were at 35 feet. >> I guess if I lived in an area that was more water friendly I might get >> far more involved in the sport. > > Move. The thought has crossed my mind. I'm getting real tired of snow, and I don't ski anymore. >> Be careful of what you wish for. "get up to the surface quickly" is >> almost never the best answer, even in 35 feet of water . . . make that >> especially in 35 feet of water. > I realize that, but an accent from 35ft would not require the multitude of > stops required from a deep dive. If I recall, a slow accent and only one > stop at around 15 feet. Of course, a lot would depend on how long you > were at 35 feet. You're probably a pretty long way from doing much in the way of decompression diving. In fact, if you're using tourist boats for transportation, you're not going to find a lot of opportunities for significant decompression. You can stay at 35 feet a lot longer than any tank you'll be able to lift will last you before decompression stops are an issue. As you note, a slow ascent normally works just fine. It was, however, the "quickly" in your previous statement that got my attention. The expansion of gas between 35 feet and the surface is considerably greater than it is while you are still deeper. The increased risk should you hold your breath during the ascent is obvious. What is not so obvious is that there can be small amounts of gas trapped in part of your lungs that also expands more rapidly near the surface. An even bigger issue exists for those that have been deeper and are in the final stages of their dive ascent. You'd be surprised how many people are very careful to ascend slowly from their maximum depth, do any required decompression stops, and then bolt to the surface after completing their safety stop. It's a good idea to cover that last 15 feet to the surface slower than you would the first 15 feet off the bottom, a real good idea. Few new divers do. >> Move. > The thought has crossed my mind. I'm getting real tired of snow, and I > don't ski anymore. Quite thinking and do it. You're not getting any younger. 8^) I've always found it a lot better to live where it's warm and travel to go snow skiing than to live where it's cold and travel to where it's warm for my vacations. Then again, I'm a native of S. Florida. My idea of living up north is the 7 years I was in Jacksonville. It was too far north for me. I came back south as soon as I could. Like you, I don't ski any more. Perhaps I should get my Olin Slalom Racers and Lange boots out of the attic and see if anyone wants them enough to pay shipping plus a little something for me. Lee >>>Good point. Still, I don't plan on renting a boat and going out by >>>myself, [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > if I lived in an area that was more water friendly I might get far more > involved in the sport. The first 30 feet is the most dangerous.. Signature“TAANSTAFL” ____________________________________________________________________________ Something to think about, from a wise man now long dead….: “In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the person’s becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American. “There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn’t an American at all. “We have room for but one flag, the American flag. We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people.” --Theodore Roosevelt...1907 ____________________________________________________________________________ "A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for them; The simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences." - Proverbs 22:3 ____________________________________________________________________________ >Most of you said not to spend a lot of money at first, but I'm wondering if >there is anything I should absolutely buy and not rent for my first open >dives. Depends where your first open dives are. As I recall, there was the possibility you'd be doing them on vacation in warm water. If so, you might find it a good thing to buy a light shorty wetsuit. Depending on your destination, they might not be available to rent. Even if they are available, you'll likely have a much better choice (and fit) in the dive shop. Plus, depending on the length of your vacation, you may very well save near the cost of the suit This is something you can't go too far wrong with. It's not that expensive, you're unlikely to regret the purchase, and it will probably enhance your comfort in the water. SignatureRon (user ron in domain spamblocked.com) |
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