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Scuba Forum / General / January 2007You didn't miss much
Just got back from Fla. this afternoon and shivering up here in NJ. Brrrrrrrr.... Anyway, I think all you Floridians must have known what would have happened. You were smart not to even show up. On the morning trip (01/14) Silent World went out into what was forecast as 8 Key winds, 3-5ft. seas. We got to "The Elbow" and encountered more like 10-12 key winds 4-6ft. seas. We moored at the "City of Washington" site and just getting off the boat and to the tow line took 500 psi before even descending! They put me with a team of 5 people, all of whom scattered as soon as they were down, leaving me "solo" at 35fsw in some of the worst surge I've ever experienced. Fortunately, I found the "leader" of the group (an Ast. Instr). and continued with him, that is, when I could keep him down (he kept surfacing to get his bearings). Viz didn't help either at 20-25ft. At 1000psi, I signaled to him "going up/back!" He surfaced again, and then I surfaced to discover that we were still 100+ yards away from the boat, and had to pass another boat enroute back to ours! By this time, we were up to 8ft. seas at times. I could have descended again to make better time back to the boat but I decided that I didn't have enough air left for the entire trip and to resurface again and wait for my turn to get back on the boat. So I inflated the BC to max and then back peddled on the surface back to our boat. I tell you, I'll never joke about people who still carry a snorkel (not that I ever did but....). It truly saved my you-know-what! I think I had 455psi left upon landing on the boat. Of course, now back on it, I was totally tired, and starting to feel the "after effects" of those 6-8ft. seas!!! Frustrating, because I had been on boats all of my life in worse conditions and never gotten sick at all. Most of the other divers elected to go back down for the 2nd dive, figuring it would be calmer underwater than on the surface, and they were right, but I could not - I was too tired, and of course, as they say, if you don't feel up to it, don't dive! Two of us then stayed on the surface fighting the "queezies" as best we could. Fortunately for me, I succeeded in "keeping it down" by lying down rather than trying to sit or stand (which made the nausea stronger). The other gentleman wasn't so lucky, and in fact, as soon as the others who went down for the 2nd dive returned, many were hunched over the rails within seconds of landing on the boat. Needless to say, Silent World returned to port with the intention of canceling the 2nd trip, but the party waiting at port for that trip insisted on going. I was to go with them (it was to the Spiegel Grove) but wisely elected not to. They insisted on going and the boat captain agreed to accommodate them. Oh well. Monday (01/15) was calmer as I understood, but because that 1st trip came back to port late the day before, I elected to cancel it on my own as well, as I had a 1pm appt. at the Dolphins Cove sanctuary which I did not want to miss. I'd have lost more money missing that than diving. Thus, only 1 of 6 dives completed <sigh>. A truly humbling experience. Not discouraging at all, but humbling. I have some things to learn about handling that kind of surge, and getting in a little better shape so that I don't use as much air next time. I can see that being "inactive" for 3-4 months does take its toll. Better get on that elliptical machine before my trip to Palau in February. At any rate, I hope to come back to Fl. later this year when you are all planning your next group outing. Perhaps Memorial Day weekend or last week of June when Dan Bracuk is planning to go. Hopefully, things will be a lot calmer and I'll be in much better shape. Until then, back to the Gym, and I'll advise as to the Palau trip. ____________________________________________ Regards, Arnold Visit my Travel Photo Website: http://www.mag3.biz/travel_photos/home_page.html Absolutely 100% SPAM free!!!! HONEST!!! :-) mag3 <zmpmag3-plongee@yahoo.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: :Needless to say, Silent World returned to port with the intention of canceling the 2nd trip, but the :party waiting at port for that trip insisted on going. I was to go with them (it was to the Spiegel Grove) [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] :I can see that being "inactive" for 3-4 months does take its toll. Better get on that elliptical machine :before my trip to Palau in February. I think the best way to handle that type of surge is to do something else that day. Dan Bracuk If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure. > mag3 <zmpmag3-plongee@yahoo.com> pounded away at his keyboard > resulting in: [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > I think the best way to handle that type of surge is to do something > else that day. Yup. A deeper dive. > Just got back from Fla. this afternoon and shivering up here in NJ. > Brrrrrrrr.... > Anyway, I think all you Floridians must have known what would have > happened. Sorry you had a bad experience, but we not only knew what to expect, we tried to warn you. We all sometimes have to learn things the hard way. Looks like this one was your turn. Maybe your next trip will turn out better. Frankly, you probably should have done the Grove. It's deep enough that it might have had decent visibility and certainly deep enough that the surge would not have bothered you. On the other hand, if you were already fighting sea sickness, you probably made the right decision. Lee > Frankly, you probably should have done the Grove. It's deep enough that > it might have had decent visibility and certainly deep enough that the > surge would not have bothered you. On the other hand, if you were > already fighting sea sickness, you probably made the right decision. The best cure for sea sickness is to get down below the surge / wave action... Unfortunately, you have to come up sooner or later... > > Frankly, you probably should have done the Grove. It's deep enough that > > it might have had decent visibility and certainly deep enough that the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > The best cure for sea sickness is to get down below the surge / wave > action... Unfortunately, you have to come up sooner or later... Well, technically... > Well, technically... Obviously, Black was just trying to stay down until his sea sickness subsided... > > Well, technically... > > Obviously, Black was just trying to stay down until his sea sickness > subsided... Apparently, it hasn't yet. >Sorry you had a bad experience, but we not only knew what to expect, we >tried to warn you. We all sometimes have to learn things the hard way. >Looks like this one was your turn. > >Maybe your next trip will turn out better. Well, it wasn't a total loss. I successfully resolved the angst I was feeling over my ear problems I had on my previous NJ ocean dive (had no trouble with it at all). And, I learned how So. Fl. dive ops work "the hard way" as you say. Unfortunately for me, my time in Fl. is limited so I kinda have to go when I get the opportunity. I will always have to be here in mid January for my dad's birthday. So maybe what I do during these times is hit the springs in central Fl. instead of trying to dive the gulf or the Keys. I'll save that for either late June or the end of Nov (just before/after Hurricane season). Or I'll just hang out here a bit more and figure out when you guys go. :-) >Frankly, you probably should have done the Grove. It's deep enough that it >might have had decent visibility and certainly deep enough that the surge >would not have bothered you. On the other hand, if you were already >fighting sea sickness, you probably made the right decision. The boat captain at SW seemed to think it would be worse than where we were on the surface at least and didn't want to go. It was only after the afternoon party insisted that he relented but with a stern warning "Once we're out.... we're out ..... and you pay!" I think I'd paid enough for one day. Nothing was going to get me on that boat again. Maybe the boat captain sensed that and was trying to quash any last minute thoughts I might've had on trying it. He was successful. ____________________________________________ Regards, Arnold Visit my Travel Photo Website: http://www.mag3.biz/travel_photos/home_page.html Absolutely 100% SPAM free!!!! HONEST!!! :-) > Unfortunately for me, my time in Fl. is limited so I kinda have to go when > I get the opportunity. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > season). Or I'll just hang > out here a bit more and figure out when you guys go. :-) Summer is more reliable than winter, but there are good days and bad days throughout the year. Mostly, we go when we expect it to be good. When you can look out the window to see which way the wind is blowing and how hard, it's easier to do your diving on the better days. Generally, I look for a few days of relatively calm weather so that anything the winds have stirred up have had a chance to settle or be carried away by currents. When your visit was scheduled, we had already had a fairly long period of strong winds and were expecting more of the same. > The boat captain at SW seemed to think it would be worse than where we > were on the surface at > least and didn't want to go. It was only after the afternoon party > insisted that he relented but with > a stern warning "Once we're out.... we're out ..... and you pay!" The captain is the boss. When someone that makes his living from going out, does not want to go out, it's usually a good idea to listen. Lee That's too bad, Arnold. I drove down to Key Largo again on Sunday (1/14) after getting blown out again at Pompano. I went out with Ocean Divers, which was only taking "experienced divers who have gone out with us the last couple of days." I had been out with them the day before and many times before, so I was one of about 10 divers on the green boat, the heavier one that takes the seas better. It was indeed a little rougher Sunday, and it's good we were on the green boat, which is a better platform. We went to French first, because it's deeper and the captain hoped to get us minimal surge. But being deeper means being at the edge of the reef, closer to the open sand, so we had basically a blizzard, with viz under 15 feet. So we moved to Molasses for the second dive, where we had a lot of surge but really good viz, under the circumstances, 35+ feet. I was trying to take photos, so I didn't much like the surge, but when I tucked the camera away and just rode it, it was kind of fun. And I was sort of pleased with the photos -- under the circumstances (see for yourself at http://flickr.com/photos/aquadiver/. The first six in the stream are from that trip, though most were taken Saturday, when it was a little milder, but still in significant surge). As for the seas, I guess I saw a few waves up to 8 feet, most was 3-5. Sort of like an average day in NC, where the boat rides are 3 hours, not 30 minutes. Yeah, if I lived in Fla., I probably would have found something else to do, too. But to me it was worth the commute from Pompano to play in the surge at Key Largo. I'd do it again in a heartbeat. gc > Just got back from Fla. this afternoon and shivering up here in NJ. Brrrrrrrr.... > [quoted text clipped - 52 lines] > > Absolutely 100% SPAM free!!!! HONEST!!! :-) > That's too bad, Arnold. I drove down to Key Largo again on Sunday > (1/14) after getting blown out again at Pompano. I went out with Ocean > Divers, which was only taking "experienced divers who have gone out > with us the last couple of days." I had been out with them the day > before and many times before, so I was one of about 10 divers on the > green boat, the heavier one that takes the seas better. Hi George, I have been out with Ocean Divers also, although I was on the white boat (Santana) which is about the same size. > It was indeed a little rougher Sunday, and it's good we were on the > green boat, which is a better platform. We went to French first, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > moved to Molasses for the second dive, where we had a lot of surge but > really good viz, under the circumstances, 35+ feet. Look on the bright side of surge....you get to see the same thing again and again and again.... :) > I was trying to take photos, so I didn't much like the surge, but when > I tucked the camera away and just rode it, it was kind of fun. And I > was sort of pleased with the photos -- under the circumstances (see > for yourself at http://flickr.com/photos/aquadiver/. The first six in > the stream are from that trip, though most were taken Saturday, when it > was a little milder, but still in significant surge). Great pictures, especially under those type of sea conditions. Its a wonder you didn't get a lot of backscatter. > As for the seas, I guess I saw a few waves up to 8 feet, most was 3-5. > Sort of like an average day in NC, where the boat rides are 3 hours, > not 30 minutes. I agree. An average day for NC. About two years ago a group of us booked a hotel/dive package to KL and went with Sea Dwellers. One morning as we were going out, the Captain told us, "It might get a little rough out here. We have some weather on the horizon and we might get 1-2 foot seas". A couple of us started laughing because in NC we PRAY for 1-2 foot seas. Andy > > I was one of about 10 divers on the > > green boat, the heavier one that takes the seas better. > Hi George, > I have been out with Ocean Divers also, although I was on the white boat > (Santana) which is about the same size. Same length, yes, but the Green boat weighs more and resists the seas more effectively. It's also slower by an order of magnitude, so they never use it for the wrecks, only for the reefs. > > I was trying to take photos, so I didn't much like the surge, but when > > I tucked the camera away and just rode it, it was kind of fun. And I > > was sort of pleased with the photos -- under the circumstances (see > > for yourself athttp://flickr.com/photos/aquadiver/. The first six in > > the stream are from that trip, though most were taken Saturday, when it > > was a little milder, but still in significant surge). > Great pictures, especially under those type of sea conditions. Its a > wonder you didn't get a lot of backscatter. Thanks Andy, it was certainly challenging, but I figure it's good practice for my Galapagos trip in May, where I'll be dealing with currents and surge, too. As for backscatter, well, I won't go into detail about the hours of Photoshopping that those photos experienced before publication ;). > > As for the seas, I guess I saw a few waves up to 8 feet, most was 3-5. > > Sort of like an average day in NC, where the boat rides are 3 hours, > > not 30 minutes. > I agree. An average day for NC. About two years ago a group of us > booked a hotel/dive package to KL and went with Sea Dwellers. One > morning as we were going out, the Captain told us, "It might get a > little rough out here. We have some weather on the horizon and we might > get 1-2 foot seas". A couple of us started laughing because in NC we > PRAY for 1-2 foot seas. I think all the Key Largo captains must have a similar speech. I was on a trip to the SG last year when the captain described the conditions expected and said "it will take all your dive skills to do this successfully, and if anyone wants to stay home now, we'll happily refund your money, but once we leave the dock, we're going." As we rode out there, a number of us who have dived off NC started laughing, just as you guys did, for the same reason. Having said that, I have pretty much decided that for me, outside Baltimore, I can go to Fla. for a weekend for about the same commitment of time and money as I can go to NC, and I can get in more diving in better conditions in the same amount of time. And even if I get blown out, there are always the springs. So I expect to get to know the Fla. reefs and wrecks a lot better over the next few years. > Andy gc >>>I was one of about 10 divers on the >>>green boat, the heavier one that takes the seas better. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > more effectively. It's also slower by an order of magnitude, so they > never use it for the wrecks, only for the reefs. Been a few years since I was on the "Santana" but I remember the green boat. Never gave any thought as to the weight of either craft. I may be wrong, but seems I remember the "Santana" may have been made of fiberglass which would account for the weight difference? >>>I was trying to take photos, so I didn't much like the surge, but when >>>I tucked the camera away and just rode it, it was kind of fun. And I [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > detail about the hours of Photoshopping that those photos experienced > before publication ;). All the same, you can't make a silk purse from a sows ear. Ya done well. > I think all the Key Largo captains must have a similar speech. I was on > a trip to the SG last year when the captain described the conditions [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > out there, a number of us who have dived off NC started laughing, just > as you guys did, for the same reason. I guess we have to remember that probably a good number of folks that dive from their boats may not experienced any challenging sea conditions. My first ocean dives were out of Morehead and I think we were hitting 3-4 ft seas, so I just took that as "normal". In 2005 we chartered the "Seaquest" out of Beaufort and the seas were flat as a pond. > Having said that, I have pretty much decided that for me, outside > Baltimore, I can go to Fla. for a weekend for about the same commitment > of time and money as I can go to NC, and I can get in more diving in > better conditions in the same amount of time. And even if I get blown > out, there are always the springs. So I expect to get to know the Fla. > reefs and wrecks a lot better over the next few years. Yeah....sometimes NC is a crapshoot, but I have learned not to even try and book any trips in Sept or October. Spring and summer are usually pretty reliable. The LDS has booked a trip for this May which includes the bunkhouse. I may very well jump on that one. AC "George Cathcart" <george.cathcart@gmail.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: :I was trying to take photos, so I didn't much like the surge, but when :I tucked the camera away and just rode it, it was kind of fun. And I :was sort of pleased with the photos -- under the circumstances (see :for yourself at http://flickr.com/photos/aquadiver/. The first six in :the stream are from that trip, though most were taken Saturday, when it :was a little milder, but still in significant surge). Those are mighty fine pics. Dan Bracuk If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure. About 2 years before in May I did some dives with SW at KL. There was a good deal of surge then and they had to let loose a "tag line" and a "granny line"and what not to get out and back on the boat. And yes, I found this intermittent surfacing a bit strange too. We have not done that in the middle east, red sea or Indian ocean. But then, the depth at most of the reef sites is not much in KL. You wouldn't try that for wrecks like the Duane or Spiegel Grove though. > Just got back from Fla. this afternoon and shivering up here in NJ. > Brrrrrrrr.... [quoted text clipped - 89 lines] > > Absolutely 100% SPAM free!!!! HONEST!!! :-) > About 2 years before in May I did some dives with SW at KL. There was a > good deal of surge then and they had to let loose a "tag line" and a [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > of the reef sites is not much in KL. You wouldn't try that for wrecks like > the Duane or Spiegel Grove though. It's a pretty common event on shallow water dives down here, particularly when there's a mild current. It's so common that some boats used to, and I presume still do, advise you to come to the surface to check your location about half way through the dive. On deeper dives, the increased risk of surfacing and descending more often than is necessary, makes it worth the effort to pay attention to your navigation. On wrecks, where there are distinct visual references, there's little, if any, advantage to surfacing to see where you are. Compass navigation does not work as well when there are variable currents, as there often are over the reefs of south Florida. Visual navigation works fine, but it requires paying a bit of attention to where you've been and what you've seen. While every diver should be able to navigate to and from the boat without surfacing, when it's simple and safe to come up and take a look about half way through the dive, it's sometimes more effort than it's worth. There's a lot to be said for a computer assisted, virtually carefree tour across a colorful shallow reef. I've spent many happy hours diving with no more than a general idea where I am relative to the boat. >> On the morning trip (01/14) Silent World went out into what was forecast >> as 8 Key winds, 3-5ft. seas. We got to "The Elbow" and encountered more >> like 10-12 key winds 4-6ft. seas. We moored at the "City of Washington" >> site and just getting off >> the boat and to the tow line took 500 psi before even descending! Several of the Key Largo dive shops do their trips to the City of Washington. It's a quick and cheap place for them to go, but is not, in my opinion, a good representative of the quality of the area's shallow reef diving. There's a lot of small fish life there, but even that's not the best the Keys have to offer. It's mostly less brilliantly colored schooling fish rather than the true beauties of our subtropical waters. That's the kind of site Silent World took some of us a couple of years ago, on a free dive to make up for an aborted previous one. Both of us from this group concluded we would rather have stayed on shore. That's a pretty significant conclusion on a dive you don't have to pay for. >> They put me with a team of 5 people, all of whom scattered as soon as >> they were down, leaving me "solo" at 35fsw in some of >> the worst surge I've ever experienced. Fortunately, I found the "leader" >> of the group (an Ast. Instr). and continued with him, that is, when I >> could keep him down (he kept surfacing to get his bearings). Viz didn't >> help either at 20-25ft. That's a very common way to dive and one of the reasons why DMs don't usually get in the water in the Keys. On shallow dives like the City of Washington, there's nothing wrong with letting everyone wander to see what they can find, but no point in trying to guide those that do. As for keeping him down, unless you started the dive as his buddy, and established how the dive would be managed, you really didn't have a reason to expect him to do the dive the way you prefer. Did you start out with a buddy? Did you plan who would lead and who would follow? At 35 feet, many divers are more comfortable solo than with an unknown buddy. Hopefully, you understand that, if a buddy, dive plan, etc. is necessary for you to be comfortable, it is your responsbility, rather than the operator's, to plan for it. >> At 1000psi, I signaled to him "going up/back!" He surfaced again, and >> then I surfaced to discover that we were still 100+ yards [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> inflated the BC to max and then back peddled on the >> surface back to our boat. Look at what you've said here and then compare it to your apparent discomfort with your impromptu buddy's occasionaly trips to the surface. If you didn't plan to do that yourself, you should have been more aware of where you were during the dive. I'm not being judgemental, just trying to point out that, in a situation like this, you either navigate formally, or you plan on checking occasionally to see where you are. However you do it, you should be on your way back toward the boat before it's too late to make the trip submerged, particularly when the seas are rough. Swimming underwater is almost always more efficient than swimming, with all your equipment, on the surface. You were basically depending on your impromptu (my assumption) dive buddy to replace the dive master/dive guide the operator did not supply. >>I tell you, I'll never joke about people who still carry a snorkel (not >>that I ever did but....). It truly saved my you-know-what! <grin> >> A truly humbling experience. Not discouraging at all, but humbling. I >> have some things to learn about handling that kind of >> surge, and getting in a little better shape so that I don't use as much >> air next time. I can see that being "inactive" for 3-4 months >> does take its toll. Better get on that elliptical machine before my trip >> to Palau in February. That's a pretty mature attitude. It will serve you well as your diving skills develop. As for air consumption, being inactive is a factor, but it's not usually the most important factor. You were not particularly comfortable or relaxed during the dive and you worked harder at it than was necessary. The fact that you may not be in the best shape ever, increased the effects of your discomfort and hard work on your consumption, but it was not the primary factor involved. >> At any rate, I hope to come back to Fl. later this year when you are all >> planning your next group outing. Perhaps Memorial Day >> weekend or last week of June when Dan Bracuk is planning to go. >> Hopefully, things will be a lot calmer and I'll be in much >> better shape. We'll see how it turns out, but there does seem to be a Dive with Dan kind of event shaping up. Many of us have "known" DAN on line for years, but never met him in person. It's always nice, and usually quite interesting, to meet rec.scuba members face to face. >> Until then, back to the Gym, and I'll advise as to the Palau trip. Have a wonderful time and dive safe. Lee >>> They put me with a team of 5 people, all of whom scattered as soon as >>> they were down, leaving me "solo" at 35fsw in some of >>> the worst surge I've ever experienced. Fortunately, I found the "leader" >>> of the group (an Ast. Instr). and continued with him, that is, when I >>> could keep him down (he kept surfacing to get his bearings). Viz didn't >>> help either at 20-25ft. I'll reply to the parts below here as I was the OP. >That's a very common way to dive and one of the reasons why DMs don't >usually get in the water in the Keys. On shallow dives like the City of [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >how the dive would be managed, you really didn't have a reason to expect him >to do the dive the way you prefer. No, I didn't have a reason to expect that. I suppose I expected it having been what I'd experienced to date. When we went down, we stayed down until it was time for the safety stop. I think there was only one instance where an instructor of mine surfaced at Dutch like that to get her bearings when we were trying to navigate out to the Helicopter (those familiar with Dutch will know to what I refer). One of the few sites at Dutch without any guide ropes etc. that require true navigation skills. This would have been around 40-45 ft. so not too much deeper than the C.O.W. site. Now I know that's an acceptable way to dive in such shallow environments. Live and learn. >Did you start out with a buddy? Did you plan who would lead and who would >follow? At 35 feet, many divers are more comfortable solo than with an >unknown buddy. Hopefully, you understand that, if a buddy, dive plan, etc. >is necessary for you to be comfortable, it is your responsbility, rather >than the operator's, to plan for it. Initially, I asked for and was willing to pay for a guide (DM), assuming that none of our illustrious rec.scubans would show up. SW told me that "it wasn't necessary" and that they would find me a buddy on board. Just prior to casting off, I reminded the DM of this. He turned to this group of 5 and asked, "Can he go with you guys?" And they agreed, but as you say, no dive plan was formulated. The boot took off and it was so noisy that none of us could really talk and get a plan together. By the time we moored, I was so focused on my BWRAF check of myself that I didn't think to check and see with which of those 5 I'd be paired. When I jumped in, I was shocked by the seas so I quickly forgot to relax and make my way to the tow line, where it seemed we were to wait until the other 5 had all gotten in (I thought that's what we were doing anyway). By the time I recognized that all 5 were in, the leader and the others had already begun their descent, so I had to go quickly, and by the time I was down, they had all scattered. Fortunately, I found the leader soloing himself, so I paired with him quickly. >>> At 1000psi, I signaled to him "going up/back!" He surfaced again, and >>> then I surfaced to discover that we were still 100+ yards [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >point out that, in a situation like this, you either navigate formally, or >you plan on checking occasionally to see where you are. Several factors here. 1) Dealing with that degree of Seas and surge for the first time; 2) Dealing with an increased air consumption than on previous dives for the same time period; 3) Dealing with overall anxiety about the situation; 4) Inexperience with this type of diving (all my other dives were either planned with a buddy or led by and instructor or DM); 5) Being inactive for 3-4 months (not "physically" as you say, but experience/psychologywise); All of the above were factors that in retrospect caused me to lose focus on where I was and how to get back. I was constantly checking my air, and would have gone back earlier but it seemed my "instant buddy" wanted to stay longer and still had the air for it. A valuable lesson learned, and a scenario I do not intend to repeat. Even though I was not familiar with the site and was not being guided, I could have done several things to remember where I was including: 1) Watch where I was in relation to the boat as I started to descend (perhaps get a compass bearing); 2) Take note of the seascape and map the surroundings (in my head at least if not on a slate) 3) Not even worry about underwater photography on an initial dive to a given site - just go down and survey the area first - pictures can come a lot later (BTW, I took none due to the viz and the above factors). 4) Above all, identify the buddy first and plan the dive, no matter what. > However you do it, >you should be on your way back toward the boat before it's too late to make >the trip submerged, particularly when the seas are rough. Agreed. As I said, this was a humbling experience, but one that offered much learning. >Swimming >underwater is almost always more efficient than swimming, with all your >equipment, on the surface. You were basically depending on your impromptu >(my assumption) dive buddy to replace the dive master/dive guide the >operator did not supply. Yes, I was. Will not make that mistake again. In all fairness though, the act of being "solo" in that manner really didn't bother me as much as the other factors because I knew I could survive and I knew I could get back to the boat on my own if I needed to. I knew my equipment was working and I knew I was not so deep that I could not surface expeditiously if necessary. I was just trying as hard as I could not to "screw the pooch" if I didn't have to. >>> A truly humbling experience. Not discouraging at all, but humbling. I >>> have some things to learn about handling that kind of [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >the effects of your discomfort and hard work on your consumption, but it was >not the primary factor involved. Absolutely correct, now that I look at it. I know I wasn't relaxed from the moment I jumped in and started dealing with those seas. Of course I was going to use more air. Now, having had this experience and living to tell the tale, I'll be able to burn in the relaxation part and the initial bearings part a lot easier. But I also know that I have to keep diving and not take so much time off between dives until I get a good many more years of experience and a lot of these things become second nature. The equipment stuff (and the buoyancy) is getting there at present. Now I have to do the "presence in the water" stuff and that just comes with time and experience. After all, I've only been at this for just over 1 1/4 years. I need to make sure I have many more years to follow. >We'll see how it turns out, but there does seem to be a Dive with Dan kind >of event shaping up. Many of us have "known" DAN on line for years, but >never met him in person. It's always nice, and usually quite interesting, >to meet rec.scuba members face to face. As soon as there are dates, I'd appreciate knowing so I can buy tickets and make reservations etc >>> Until then, back to the Gym, and I'll advise as to the Palau trip. > >Have a wonderful time and dive safe. You betcha. Thanks. ____________________________________________ Regards, Arnold > Now I know that's an acceptable way to dive in such shallow environments. > Live and learn. You've certainly got the right attitude to do that. I think you'll do fine. > Initially, I asked for and was willing to pay for a guide (DM), assuming > that none of our illustrious [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > I found the leader soloing himself, > so I paired with him quickly. Another live and learn. I suspect you would have been OK without a buddy, but that's not what you were comfortable with. While I'm a strong believer in personal responsibility, I think it's fair to say that, this time, you had some help creating a situation you would rather have avoided. Another opportunity to live and learn. Most, but not all, of the rec.scuba people that have visited us here in South Florida, are fairly casual about buddy protocols. They've been diving long enough to be very comfortable with what they can and can not do safely, and stay well without their limits, even those whose limits are somewhat extreme. Pretty much without exception, though, we're quite understanding of those that prefer a more normal buddy relationship and when we agree to such a relationship, we're pretty good about honoring it. You would not have had trouble finding a buddy among us for most dives. While we're in the learning mode, there's two more things that are common to virtually all experienced divers in this group, things I think should be common to all divers in any group. 1. Whether we're someone's buddy or not, we're always alert for the needs of other divers. We keep an eye out for one another and there's no delay at all in providing assistance for anyone that needs it. We don't impose, but we are available. 2. Anyone can, and should, call a dive any time they feel uncomfortable continuing it. It's OK to call it before the dive starts, during the descent, on the bottom, or anyplace else. It's an individual decision it will be respected. We may ask why, but only because we want to understand, not because our understanding is necessary. What happens when someone calls a dive, depends on what understanding was reached before the dive began, on the experience and comfort level of the buddies involved, and on the circumstances at the time the dive is called. Many of us, for relatively shallow diving, are SOBs, Same Ocean Buddy divers. We start out together, usually, but not always, stay within sight of one another and may or may not ascend together. When one of us choses to call a dive, assuming there are no problems that might require assistance, we try to let our buddy know, but don't expect him to ascend with us unless he simply feels like it. Others prefer more traditional buddy teams, with closer proximity and continued cross support throughout the dive. This makes it imperative that everybody understands their buddy's preferences before the dive starts. SOBs can be good buddies, but they need to know it's expected. > Several factors here. Yep. Several of your factors stem from the lack of communication before the dive started. You didn't do badly under the circumstances, but you might have done better. > A valuable lesson learned, and a scenario I do not intend to repeat. Even > though I was not familiar with the > site and was not being guided, I could have done several things to > remember where I was including: > 1) Watch where I was in relation to the boat as I started to descend > (perhaps get a compass bearing); That's a start. Compass bearings can be a help, but, in current, particularly one mild enough to escape notice, they're good only for establishing a general direction. By the way, next time you dive in the ocean, or anyplace else subject to wave action, take a look at the sandy parts of the bottom. The waves build contours that are an unmistakable indication of direction. > 2) Take note of the seascape and map the surroundings (in my head at least > if not on a slate) Generally, this is the way to handle it. If you know you will have to return on your own, you're more likely to notice landmarks to help you do it. Don't forget to look behind you occasionally. That's what it will look like when you're on your way back to the boat. Given time, and a little effort, you'll soon do this automatically. It's how many, probably, most ocean divers navigate. > 3) Not even worry about underwater photography on an initial dive to a > given site - just go down > and survey the area first - pictures can come a lot later (BTW, I took > none due to the viz and the > above factors). I've done my share of underwater photography. I pretty much gave it up a few years ago. I detracted from my dive. Perhaps of more importance, though, it how it distracts your attention from your buddy. A photographer is rarely a good, or fun, buddy. My personal opinion, which not everyone shares, is that photographers are better off diving solo. That suggests a rather high level of experience and comfort. I think underwater photography should be reserved for those with the experience it takes to do perform all normal diving tasks without thinking because what you will be thinking about, almost exclusively, is your photography. Obviously, not everyone agrees, but that's my personal opinion. Whether you agree or not, be careful. It's easy to get into trouble when you're holding a camera. > 4) Above all, identify the buddy first and plan the dive, no matter what. Always a good idea. > Yes, I was. Will not make that mistake again. In all fairness though, the > act of being "solo" in that manner [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > hard as I could not to "screw the > pooch" if I didn't have to. All of which means that you're as human as all the rest of us, maybe more so than some. >>We'll see how it turns out, but there does seem to be a Dive with Dan kind >>of event shaping up. Many of us have "known" DAN on line for years, but >>never met him in person. It's always nice, and usually quite interesting, >>to meet rec.scuba members face to face. > As soon as there are dates, I'd appreciate knowing so I can buy tickets > and make reservations etc Keep an eye out for information on planned trips. If I'm not mistaken, Dan prefers relatively shallow dives sites. I don't think it's a matter of experience or ability, but rather, a matter of knowing why he dives in the first place. A get together to dive with him will probably be a good chance for people with very diverse experience levels to get together. Other group dives discussed here are usually suitable for intermediate divers. That doesn't mean that they can't be quite technical, but that they don't have to be. Generally speaking, any technical dives planned by group members, are planned privately with people who are known to be safe doing them or at least known to have the good sense not to do something they shouldn't. Lee >Another live and learn. I suspect you would have been OK without a buddy, >but that's not what you were comfortable with. I think so as well if I had set myself up for it initially. I was prepared to in the event I could not be paired with anyone, but I wasn't sure though whether or not the DM would permit it if he knew I was going to do it deliberately (most of my NJ Instructors/DM's would not). Furthermore, at least for now, I need "logged dives" until I get to the magic 100+ range. After that, I'll have enough to qualify for whatever certs I might want to do thereafter (eg. TDI "Solo" Cert), and it won't matter as much if the dive isn't "logged" per se. If I solo now, I'm not sure the DMs would sign the log book unless he/she went with me. In this particular case, my "impromptu buddy" signed. > Generally speaking, any technical dives planned by group members, are >planned privately with people who are known to be safe doing them or at >least known to have the good sense not to do something they shouldn't. I'm not sure how "technical" I plan to go in the future (I can see doing some decompression profiles, perhaps some trimix dives etc.), but entry to the above group is a reasonable longer term goal for me and one to which I will aspire. ____________________________________________ Regards, Arnold > I think so as well if I had set myself up for it initially. I was prepared > to in the event I could not be [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > went with me. In this particular case, > my "impromptu buddy" signed. Interesting point. It's been a long time since anyone asked to see a logbook. Mine, for just the last few years, is contained in two rather full loose leaf notebooks, and at that, is probably less than 2/3 of the dives I did during the period. When you hand someone a notbook, they tend not to look too closely at what's inside. 8^) More to the point, though, there's not a single signed entry, by me or anyone else, anywhere in my log. It's computer generated. I encourage you to keep a log. There will be a time, years down the road, when you'll look back through it and find things that bring back fond memories, or, perhaps things that make you smile at how new you once were. It's like a diary, or scrapbook history of something that is a part of who you are. It's also a good place to record technical stuff. I dive almost entirely in warm, salt water. When I got my first full wetsuit, quite a few years ago, now, I recorded information about my weighting that I used later, when I needed to use it again. Today, I don't need that information, but it sure helped while I was trying to get things straighened out. I did the same thing when Magilla started making me dive in fresh water, something I still don't do often. I have a set of doubles in the garage that have never been wet. I'll go through the same, but hopefully shortened, process with that. If you need a lot to qualify for your next certification, which may or may not be as necessary as the "standards" say, that's one more reason to keep one. Do remember, however, that a log is primarily for you, not for someone else. As for the TDI Solo certification, that's an odd duck in the diving world. The concensus seems to be that it's a useless certification, that diving solo is something you know when you're ready for without a card and that a Solo card isn't likely to influence dive operators, who have to deal with their insurance companies, to formally acknowledge your right to dive solo. Most operators, once they get to know a competent diver, look the other way when someone goes solo, but only a few will actually acknowledge that they knew and approved of your doing it. Nevertheless, the idea of having a Solo card has some merit apart from what it means to others. Just as I enjoy showing my 1969 NAUI card that shows my certification as SCUBA, I'd enjoy showing a Solo card simply for the effect it would have on those not prepared to think about the possibility. It's still more fun when operators realize that I've been diving significantly longer than many of them have been alive (1962). > I'm not sure how "technical" I plan to go in the future (I can see doing > some decompression profiles, perhaps > some trimix dives etc.), but entry to the above group is a reasonable > longer term goal for me and one to which > I will aspire. Only a few people start out with an honest plan to become a technical diver. Most notable are those that want to dive in caves and know they do early in their diving development. Some wreck divers plan to go that way as well. Most, however, just enjoy recreational diving and, eventually, find something they want to do that's beyond their comfort level. Sometimes it means more formal training, a good idea on more than one level for cave diving, sometimes it means getting together with a friend that's been there before, and sometimes it means nothing more than doing a bit of independent study. A lot of individual development is easy thanks to the internet that was nearly impossible before people had such easy access to so much information. Enjoy your diving and let us know when you're going to be back this way again. Maybe next time you'll get good weather and we'll get to do a few dives together. Lee > As for the TDI Solo certification, that's an odd duck in the diving world. > The concensus seems to be that it's a useless certification, that diving [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > knew and approved of your doing it. Nevertheless, the idea of having a Solo > card has some merit apart from what it means to others. I want one too. The Explorer liveaboards offer the course, after which they'll allow passengers to dive solo. When I did a Nekton trip last year and Janna wanted to sit out a dive here and there (the 5-a-day routine gets tough after a few days), the DMs would not let me solo. I dove with other buddies a couple times, and once with the DM who was forced to follow me around because of their no-solo policy. The solo option would be nice. I almost did an Explorer trip last year, but ended up on the Aggressor instead and unfortunately I'm not certain when I'll ever get on one of their boats. However, Capt. Don's in Bonaire offers the course on their website's "technical instruction" menu and we're going to be staying next door in March. I may e-mail them and see if I could set it up. It's $231, which is steep, but it's worth it to me to have the card to show and maybe, just maybe, it could have some influence the next time I try to persuade a DM that I won't die if they let me dive alone. Janna has no desire to actually dive solo and never has, but she's already developed the bad habit of SOBing at least to the point of straying far enough from other divers that they'd be practically useless if the sh.t hit the fan, so the class should offer her some good insight if it's taught well or at least scare her into sticking closer to her buddy on future dives. Hopefully I'll have the card by June to flaunt in your face, assuming Dan ever gets around to making his Florida plans. >> Furthermore, at least for now, I need "logged >> dives" until I get to the magic 100+ range. After that, I'll have enough [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >did during the period. When you hand someone a notbook, they tend not to >look too closely at what's inside. 8^) They would, in my neck of the woods. They're very anal about getting the proper requirements before they'll issue a particular cert. They may not verify every signature, but they'd want to see that you have them at least. Liability concerns (see below). > If you need a lot to qualify for your next certification, which may >or may not be as necessary as the "standards" say, that's one more reason to >keep one. Do remember, however, that a log is primarily for you, not for >someone else. Primarily why I'm doing it now (ie. for certs) but afterwards, I think it will also help me remember how it was when I started, and how much I've progressed since then. >As for the TDI Solo certification, that's an odd duck in the diving world. >The concensus seems to be that it's a useless certification, that diving >solo is something you know when you're ready for without a card and that a >Solo card isn't likely to influence dive operators, who have to deal with >their insurance companies, to formally acknowledge your right to dive solo. It does for my home base, Dutch Springs. They're very litigation conscious and won't (officially anyway) allow anyone to dive solo without a TDI Solo cert *and* without wearing a transponder which they rent to you for each dive day. They have spotters both on land and sometimes in boats that keep watch over everyone diving, and while they're there primarily to aid in diver rescue if someone calls out for them, I think they also look out for people breaking the rules etc. And one really big one is, you can't dive solo unless properly certified and registered (and carrying the transponder). Do they have enough eyes to catch everyone cheating and soloing? Probably not, but woe be unto them they do catch. >> I'm not sure how "technical" I plan to go in the future (I can see doing >> some decompression profiles, perhaps [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >Most notable are those that want to dive in caves and know they do early in >their diving development. Some wreck divers plan to go that way as well. My primary thrust in diving at this point is open water exploration, aquatic life encounters and most of all, underwater photography (being first and foremost a land photographer). My interest in technical stems primarily from the eventual need to go below the 130fsw "recreational limit" and for longer than 8-10min. There are sites such as "The Roses" off of Moorea in Tahiti that are at 130fsw that I'd like to spend some time photographing. So I'd want enough technical training to do some staged decompression profiles or work with Trimix to extend my time at that depth. Perhaps some of you (ie. Curtis) will be able to share the "joys of cave diving" with me such that it might peak my interest but for now, that joy escapes me and the inherent danger does not. So I think I'll stay a little shy of that for a while. >Enjoy your diving and let us know when you're going to be back this way >again. Maybe next time you'll get good weather and we'll get to do a few >dives together. At present, I await Dan's thing. Failing that, I would imagine either late June or 4th of July week (hopefully before Hurricane season starts). It would be nice to get the Spiegel Grove in sometime this year. ____________________________________________ Regards, Arnold Visit my Travel Photo Website: http://www.mag3.biz/travel_photos/home_page.html Absolutely 100% SPAM free!!!! HONEST!!! :-) > Perhaps some of you (ie. Curtis) will be able to share the "joys of cave diving" with > me such that it might peak my interest but for now, that joy escapes me and > the inherent danger does not. So I think I'll stay a little shy of that for a while. The training that will have the absolute maximum impact on your diving is a cavern course taught by a real NACD, IANTD, NAUI or NSS/CDS full cave instructor (NOT a PADI cavern class) in Florida. You need to do it in FL (not Mexico or in a quarry in the NE)with a FL instructor. It's an in-the-water hands on class where you get your gear and trim straightened out and get a good taste of real task loading and decision making while having to maintain good buoyancy control and position in a variety of challenging conditions. It's real diving in a real environment. Beside important skills that are needed for any kind of wreck or technical diving, you also get an understanding of what cave diving really is and a card which allows you into some cool places with no waves. You can do the class in a weekend. Even if you think you are not going to go on to cave diving, I highly recommend it to anyone who wants to be a better diver or progress to technical courses. Of course, once you understand the risks and their management and get under some rock and go to the edge of the daylight zone, most find that the darkness ahead is calling them. > Perhaps some of you (ie. Curtis) will be able to share the "joys of cave > diving" with > me such that it might peak my interest but for now, that joy escapes me > and > the inherent danger does not. So I think I'll stay a little shy of that > for a while. I always get a chuckle out of hearing how "dangerous" cave diving is. While there are inherently more risks, our community seems to have a far lower incident rate, even with some of the dodos that are attracted to it. A cavern course with a good instructor will help hone your diving skills, but if you're even remotely interested in going even a little bit past the daylight zone, take cave training. Trust me on this, even though you can learn a lot by diving with more experienced divers, there is always benefit with formal instruction. Besides, someone who takes you beyond your "level" into a "trust me" situation is not doing you any favors. A "mentor" will take you slow, making sure you're capable and comfortable, not getting you past your own abilities. It's difficult to know the difference when just beginning. And, do find an instructor that will tell you no, you're not ready or able, if you're not. And, if you're hell bent on that solo sh.t, cave ain't for you. Team diving is how to play, and buddy skills are essential. Period. I have little respect as a diver for anyone that says differently. As for the joy, I find it hard to explain, but it's definitely beautiful diving. Maybe Al will chime in, lucky dog's been to some of them warm & shallow ones recently. Curtis >> Perhaps some of you (ie. Curtis) will be able to share the "joys of cave >> diving" with me such that it might peak my interest but for now, that joy escapes me [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >While there are inherently more risks, our community seems to have a far >lower incident rate, even with some of the dodos that are attracted to it. I guess that's because people outside "the community" are more likely to hear about it (and remember it) when something tragic occurs than not. We never hear about all the "good" stuff. > A cavern course with a good instructor will help hone your diving >skills, but if you're even remotely interested in going even a little bit >past the daylight zone, take cave training. Trust me on this, even though >you can learn a lot by diving with more experienced divers, there is always >benefit with formal instruction. I've seen the technical curriculum at "Bird's Underwater Dive Center" for example. Are they any good? Someplace like that? > Besides, someone who takes you beyond your >"level" into a "trust me" situation is not doing you any favors. A "mentor" >will take you slow, making sure you're capable and comfortable, not getting >you past your own abilities. It's difficult to know the difference when >just beginning. And, do find an instructor that will tell you no, you're >not ready or able, if you're not. That, I'm good at (ie. finding such mentors). > And, if you're hell bent on that solo sh.t, cave ain't for you. Team >diving is how to play, and buddy skills are essential. Period. I have >little respect as a diver for anyone that says differently. Not at all. As Popeye once said when I first became a rec.scuban, "I do a lot of solo dives, but there are some dives for which I'd never solo." In general, I would much prefer to buddy dive foremost to get more fun out of it, and secondarily for backup purposes. Soloing has some benefit in re: confidence building and some may find it easier to solo when hunting or photographing on simpler dives. But like any tool, it has to be used in appropriate situations. Caving ain't one of them. > As for the joy, I find it hard to explain, but it's definitely beautiful >diving. Maybe Al will chime in, lucky dog's been to some of them warm & >shallow ones recently. That's just it... If more of you could explain the benefits of it, we on the "outside" wouldn't be bombarded with all this bad karma all the time. The way I've been seeing it so far, since one of my primary interests in diving is underwater photography, I would think there aren't very many opportunities to do photography in caves, with places like "Devil's Den" etc. being the rare exception. ____________________________________________ Regards, Arnold > That's just it... If more of you could explain the benefits of it, we on the "outside" wouldn't be > bombarded with all this bad karma all the time. The way I've been seeing it so far, since one > of my primary interests in diving is underwater photography, I would think there aren't very > many opportunities to do photography in caves, with places like "Devil's Den" etc. being the > rare exception. The risks in cave diving are for the most part well defined and therefore well managed. AFAIK, only one person who followed all of the rules died in a cave due to an odd geological event. Divers who follow the basic rules religiously come back. Deep gas dives in the ocean are far more dangerous than most of the people doing them realize. Pictures? Look here http://al.wells.googlepages.com/home These were taken with an Olympus with internal flash and some light from our preimary lights. I'm on my way out to work right now, but I'll dig up some sites with really good cave photography later. >The risks in cave diving are for the most part well defined and >therefore well managed. AFAIK, only one person who followed all of the >rules died in a cave due to an odd geological event. Divers who follow >the basic rules religiously come back. Deep gas dives in the ocean are >far more dangerous than most of the people doing them realize. Understood. Perhaps as I get more comfortable with my skills over time, I will be more willing to get the proper training from those with true cave experience. >Pictures? Look here http://al.wells.googlepages.com/home These were >taken with an Olympus with internal flash and some light from our >preimary lights. I'm on my way out to work right now, but I'll dig up >some sites with really good cave photography later. Much appreciated. These above look great. ____________________________________________ Regards, Arnold > Furthermore, at least for now, I need "logged > dives" until I get to the magic 100+ range. Just because someone might want to see "logged dives" doesn't mean the dives have to be signed and verified. If you're worried about signatures, simply forge them. You really think someone is going to call some practically anonymous dive buddy you met on a dive boat to quiz them about your dive? As for the magic 100+ range, don't think there's any magic in it. There are plenty of competent divers with less than 100 dives and plenty of horrible divers with hundreds of dives. It's a purely arbitrary number. If you're not ready to solo, don't. >> Furthermore, at least for now, I need "logged >> dives" until I get to the magic 100+ range. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >call some practically anonymous dive buddy you met on a dive boat to >quiz them about your dive? No, they won't go that far, but they'll at least want to see that someone signed, and since my instructors up here know whom I dive with primarily, they'd know a forgery when they see one. They've seen it all. They're good at ferreting those out. >As for the magic 100+ range, don't think there's any magic in it. >There are plenty of competent divers with less than 100 dives and >plenty of horrible divers with hundreds of dives. It's a purely >arbitrary number. If you're not ready to solo, don't. Magic in the sense that it's the highest number of logged dives I've seen needed for any of the certs I'd like to get at this point (ie. TDI "Solo" cert). After that, if I need more for any technical certs then I'll have to deal with that. But it's odd that you don't even need that many dives to become an instructor. Not for PADI anyway, but then again I know how "y'all" feel about "PAID!" ____________________________________________ Regards, Arnold |
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