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Scuba Forum / General / January 2007

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SDI

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Kari - 12 Jan 2007 15:53 GMT
Is anyone familiar with Scuba Diving International as a training
agency?  Have any experience with them?  Ever heard of them?
Greg Mossman - 12 Jan 2007 17:33 GMT
> Is anyone familiar with Scuba Diving International as a training
> agency?  Have any experience with them?  Ever heard of them?

SDI is just the basic training wing of TDI.  They're notable for
developing the Solo cert card.
Kari - 12 Jan 2007 18:05 GMT
> > Is anyone familiar with Scuba Diving International as a training
> > agency?  Have any experience with them?  Ever heard of them?
>
> SDI is just the basic training wing of TDI.  They're notable for
> developing the Solo cert card.

Do you know any SDI trained divers?  Can you comment on the quality of
the training, and if so, compared to what?

And do you know how SDI divers fare with the sea lice??
El Stroko Guapo - 12 Jan 2007 19:02 GMT
>>>Is anyone familiar with Scuba Diving International as a training
>>>agency?  Have any experience with them?  Ever heard of them?
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> And do you know how SDI divers fare with the sea lice??

All entry level training, from all agencies, is done to the same
standards. There is far more difference between individual instructors
than there is between agencies.

Find the best instructor in your area, and take your training from him
(her/it). Take whatever card they give ya.

btw, many instructors are "crossovers", ie they can certify for more
than one agency. The training is the same, the color of the c-card differs.

esg
Kari - 12 Jan 2007 19:41 GMT
> >>>Is anyone familiar with Scuba Diving International as a training
> >>>agency?  Have any experience with them?  Ever heard of them?
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> esg

Do you have any suggestions as to how a non-diver could differentiate
between instructors to the extent that they could determine "the best"?


Note that I am considering becoming one of those "crossovers."
Greg Mossman - 12 Jan 2007 19:54 GMT
> Do you have any suggestions as to how a non-diver could differentiate
> between instructors to the extent that they could determine "the best"?

It's the same as finding a good mechanic or dentist.  Word of mouth.
The problem is that anyone knows when their car isn't running right or
whether their teeth hurt.  Diving is different.  You might have some
people rave about a certain instructor and find out that their skills
are crap.  Also, everyone needs a dentist or mechanic at some point.
There are fewer certified divers to ask and it's not always easy to
find them.  One can hang out at dive club meetings or find a local
scuba BBS, but how many newbies will do that before signing up for a
course?
El Stroko Guapo - 12 Jan 2007 20:11 GMT
>>Do you have any suggestions as to how a non-diver could differentiate
>>between instructors to the extent that they could determine "the best"?
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> scuba BBS, but how many newbies will do that before signing up for a
> course?

That's pretty much it. A local club is a good idea as it will get you
close to a larger number of divers = a broader base of opinions. And the
opinions that count the most are from those that have been diving for a
while in a variety of locales.

In my experience (I've done everything on scuba except drown) the good
instructors are quiet, unassuming, and never brag. They have a lot of
"real life" non-instruction diving experience. They are happy to give
you a long list of former students.

Good luck

esg
David - 13 Jan 2007 03:12 GMT
> In my experience (I've done everything on scuba except drown) the good
> instructors are quiet, unassuming, and never brag. They have a lot of
> "real life" non-instruction diving experience. They are happy to give
> you a long list of former students.

In Edmonton, that mans name is Jack Madro.

http://www.subseaexperience.com/

David
Edmonton, Alberta
Kari - 15 Jan 2007 21:34 GMT
> > In my experience (I've done everything on scuba except drown) the good
> > instructors are quiet, unassuming, and never brag. They have a lot of
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> David
> Edmonton, Alberta

David, have you done any training yourself with Jack Madro?  I hear
varied reports about him, from varied sources, and would appreciate
hearing about a personal experience.

kari
VK - 14 Jan 2007 10:45 GMT
> In my experience (I've done everything on scuba except drown) the good
> instructors are quiet, unassuming, and never brag. They have a lot of
> "real life" non-instruction diving experience. They are happy to give
> you a long list of former students.

At the risk of disagreeing with the extremely handsome ESG, I have to
say that I am not sure how imortant a lot of "real life"
non-instruction diving experience is, compared to say, something like
interest in teaching and patience.  It makes for good stories, sure,
and for  courses like Rescue and DM, it makes a *HUGE* difference - but
does it help that much when it comes to learning how to give in open
water up to a depth of 18m?  Dont think so.

All else being equal, go with the more experienced diver but all else
is rarely equal.

Someone who has a 100 dives, but follows standards both in spirit and
to the letter may be a better instructor for OW than a very experienced
instructor who's got no patience for teaching.

My thinking is - find an instructor who's got a personality that you
like.  And find the answers to the following questions:
- what happens if you are having a hard time learning a skill
- what happens if you complete a skill but dont feel comfortable
- how many people in the class and how many instructors
- how long is each dive in the Open WateR (some places do 2 checkout
dives on 1 tank, which is ridiculous)

Vandit
El Stroko Guapo - 14 Jan 2007 14:23 GMT
>>In my experience (I've done everything on scuba except drown) the good
>>instructors are quiet, unassuming, and never brag. They have a lot of
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> does it help that much when it comes to learning how to give in open
> water up to a depth of 18m?  Dont think so.

In teaching, say, history or math a lot of practical experience may not
improve the instructor. But in a craft such as welding ar diving it is
important that the instructor has the "feel" that only comes with having
been there and done that. No one can teach low viz, strong currents,
wreck penetration, caving, multi-gas diving, etc if he hasn't personally
experienced it more than once or twice.

Diving is not an academic subject, it's skill development.

> All else being equal, go with the more experienced diver but all else
> is rarely equal.
>
> Someone who has a 100 dives, but follows standards both in spirit and
> to the letter may be a better instructor for OW than a very experienced
> instructor who's got no patience for teaching.

Great teaching skills are not a substitute for crappy subject knowledge.

And a good dive teacher needs both.

I don't wanna learn caving from a nice guy who's never done much himself.

> My thinking is - find an instructor who's got a personality that you
> like.  And find the answers to the following questions:
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> - how long is each dive in the Open WateR (some places do 2 checkout
> dives on 1 tank, which is ridiculous)

I won't disagree with any of that, but I would also suggest that you
find an instructor that has logged a lot of dives outside the teaching
environment.

esg

> Vandit
VK - 14 Jan 2007 18:59 GMT
> In teaching, say, history or math a lot of practical experience may not
> improve the instructor. But in a craft such as welding ar diving it is
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Diving is not an academic subject, it's skill development.

Hey, I agree with you when it comes to advanced courses.  However, for
OW courses, I dont think experience matters too much.  How much
cave/wreck penetration/multi-gas stuff are you going to do for OW?

Now, obviously, if I am teaching a course in, say, Boston and have
never dived in  cold water before, that's one thing.  But most
instructors, regardless of their experience, usually have enough
know-how of the local area to teach an OW class.

> Great teaching skills are not a substitute for crappy subject knowledge.
> And a good dive teacher needs both.

I agree with that.  But even an instructor with 100-150 dives will
generally have enough subject knowledge to teach a competent OW course.
Atleast, that has been my experience.

> I won't disagree with any of that, but I would also suggest that you
> find an instructor that has logged a lot of dives outside the teaching
> environment.

Like you said, no disagreements, really.  You are right - more
experience is always better, all else being equal.    But ultimately,
the main thing is how committed the instructor is to teaching.

A personal example - right now, I am the worst person to teach an OW
course.  For a bunch of reasons, I am temporarily burnt out with
teaching OW (too many, bunched together too often).  So for the next
month or two, I am only doing Rescue and DM.

On the other hand, we recently had an instructor doing some teaching to
get some experience with us.  A  couple of hundred dives, but a VERY
dedicated instructor.  He loved to teach, and his students had a really
great time.  Compared to me, he was a FAR better person to teach an OW
course right now, even though I have substantially more dive experience
than him.

I think a good way to sum it up would be to look at a wide range of
factors.  Instructor experience certainly is one of them - someone who
has done a lot of dives will also know what areas to focus on, and an
experienced instructor will also use his time well (for example,
spending more time on correct swimming position and mask clearing than
on regulator-snorkel exchange).

Vandit
El Stroko Guapo - 15 Jan 2007 15:11 GMT
>>In teaching, say, history or math a lot of practical experience may not
>>improve the instructor. But in a craft such as welding ar diving it is
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> instructors, regardless of their experience, usually have enough
> know-how of the local area to teach an OW class.

I think you have a higher opinion of instructors in general - both OW
and advanced - than I do.

But I have a reputation as a cynic to uphold.

esg
Lee Bell - 13 Jan 2007 00:21 GMT
> Do you have any suggestions as to how a non-diver could differentiate
> between instructors to the extent that they could determine "the best"?

We have opinions of everything.

Actually, there's been quite a bit of discussion on this.  One of the things
a non diver should do is talk with the instructor.  You can generally tell
those that are interested in their subject and in their students.  They
should be personable and willing to make time to help the non diver
understand what he will learn and how it will be taught.  People tend to get
more from an instructor they like than from one they they don't care for.
When you've found an instructor you like, ask for the names of some of his
students.  Ask them what they thought of him.  If possible, try to find some
of his old students that have experience, either before or after, with other
instuctors.  They'll be better able to judge his performance.  Finally, get
on this group and ask those that live in the area the instructor serves what
they think.  Someone may very well know the person being considered.

Lee
Dan Bracuk - 13 Jan 2007 14:13 GMT
"Kari" <karibelle2001@yahoo.com> pounded away at his keyboard
resulting in:

:Do you have any suggestions as to how a non-diver could differentiate
:between instructors to the extent that they could determine "the best"?

Closest to where you live is a good start.  The dive shop at your
resort is another good choice.

Dan Bracuk
If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure.
Lee Bell - 13 Jan 2007 14:48 GMT
> :Do you have any suggestions as to how a non-diver could differentiate
> :between instructors to the extent that they could determine "the best"?
>
> Closest to where you live is a good start.  The dive shop at your
> resort is another good choice.

Added to the information I, and others, already presented, Dan's suggestion
has a lot of merit.  It's always a good idea to learn from someone close to
where you'll do most of your diving.  If you're going to dive where the
water sometimes freezes, you don't want to learn in Florida.  If you're
going to dive in Florida, you probably don't care anything about how to
avoid a regulator freeze up or weight properly with a dry suit, but you do
care what fire coral looks like and how to deal with currents.

Lee
Matthias Voss - 15 Jan 2007 17:40 GMT
>>Find the best instructor in your area, and take your training from him
>>(her/it). Take whatever card they give ya.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Note that I am considering becoming one of those "crossovers."

My generell impression is, that those crossovered are better
instructors. Especially when they have a CMAS/NAUI affiliation.

Matthias
monty - 15 Jan 2007 06:17 GMT
> All entry level training, from all agencies, is done to the same
> standards. There is far more difference between individual instructors
> than there is between agencies.

The local SDI guy here in my neck of the woods has been punting the SDI
OW course as "no dive planning required' since the course requires the
use of a dive computer and apparently you are not taught how to use
dive tables at all.

I'm not sure if that's an accurate representation of what the course
should be, so I'd like to hear if anyone else has more insight or info
about this?

rgds
monty
Lee Bell - 15 Jan 2007 12:24 GMT
> The local SDI guy here in my neck of the woods has been punting the SDI
> OW course as "no dive planning required' since the course requires the
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> should be, so I'd like to hear if anyone else has more insight or info
> about this?

They guy's not telling the whole story.  You plan the maximum depth and time
to keep you within the limits of what your computer says is OK.  While it's
not a lot, it's a lot more than no planning at all.

Beyond that, what is best for you is largely a matter of preference and
expectations.  An increasing majority of divers don't ever use after they
complete their first open water course.  They use computers.  Most of them
learned to use tables at least well enough to get through a test, but it's
been so long since they last used one, they can no longer do so reliably.
This not a problem as long as they understand the limits of their computers
and stay within them.  When they don't have a working computer, either
because one is not available or because theirs fail, these divers are out of
luck . . . if their smart.  This dependence on computers is one of the
reasons that computers have gotten increasingly conservative.  When the
computer is the only tool divers have to plane and execute their dives, the
computer had better be right every time.  The only way to do that is to make
it so conservative that almost no matter what variables are involved, it's
conservative enough.  To judge which, between the conservative, very
conservative and too conservative computers, it helps to have some standard
tables for comparison.

A small number of divers don't have, or don't understand computers and
either dive shallow or depend on someone else, a DM, for example, to plan
and monitor their dive.  In my opinion, which I think is shared by many of
the people here, these are not divers. They lack the ability to plan and
execute a planned dive safely without support.  They should not have cards
that certify otherwise.

Traditionally, those that venture beyond recreational diving, have returned
to tables, usually tables quite different from those they initially learned.
These tables are generally optimized for gases other than air, including
nitrox, trimix as well as some combinations that most of us will never
consider, let alone use.  As the number of more technical divers has
increased, so has the sophistication of computers.  I currently have a
computer that handles several different gases and allows me to tell it when
I'm changing gas during the dive.  I probably could do technical dives
without referring to tables, but as a member of the old school, quickly
becoming the very old school, I won't.  I plan my more advanced dives using
tables, computerized ones these days, check the plan against what my dive
computer thinks is OK, and then use the computer to monitor and manage the
dive.

So, theoretically, and increasingly, you can dive, cradle to grave, entry
level to technical, without needed tables as long as you limit your diving
to what your computer can handle.

Here's the other side of the coin.  Tables are an excellent tool for
understanding diving.  The act of planning a dive with a table, whether for
air, nitrox or trimix, forces you to focus on time, depth and gas issues.
As a learning tool, it's hard to beat.  Even for those that use a computer
for all of their diving, knowledge of the tables and the issues, gives a
much better chance to sense when something is wrong with the computer or
simply with the dive being planned or executed.  It also tends to give the
diver a better basis for dealing with problems that occur during the dive
and, of course, the ability to plan and execute a dive safely when a working
computer is not available.  In my opinion, a diver that knows the tables and
keeps his ability to use them current, is likely to be a better diver than
one that doesn't.  YMMV.

Lee
Art Greenberg - 15 Jan 2007 13:33 GMT
>  They guy's not telling the whole story.  You plan the maximum depth and
>  time to keep you within the limits of what your computer says is OK.  While
>  it's not a lot, it's a lot more than no planning at all.

Don't forget gas planning. Even more important that staying within the
computer's ND profile, don't you think?

IMO, anyone teaching any level of diving without discussing dive planning is
doing his/her students a serious disservice.

Signature

Art Greenberg
artg at eclipse dot net

Lee Bell - 15 Jan 2007 14:15 GMT
>>  They guy's not telling the whole story.  You plan the maximum depth and
>>  time to keep you within the limits of what your computer says is OK.
>> While
>>  it's not a lot, it's a lot more than no planning at all.

> Don't forget gas planning. Even more important that staying within the
> computer's ND profile, don't you think?

Probably, but perhaps not at the SDI level.  TDI is their technical
affiliate, beginning with nitrox.

> IMO, anyone teaching any level of diving without discussing dive planning
> is
> doing his/her students a serious disservice.

Yep.
VK - 15 Jan 2007 14:19 GMT
> Don't forget gas planning. Even more important that staying within the
> computer's ND profile, don't you think?

For tech stuff, of course.   For recreational diving at the OW level,
"start your ascent at 50 bar" is all the gas planning that is
*essential*, along with a knowledge that deeper = proportionately more
air consumption.  As the diver's skills grow and he starts venturing
deeper, then additional knowledge can be acquired.  It is definitely
nice to know SCR/SACs and how to relate them to air consumption at
depth, but it is not essential.

> IMO, anyone teaching any level of diving without discussing dive planning is
> doing his/her students a serious disservice.

I do agree with this.  That being said, I dont remember the last time
I've planned a no-decompression dive.

To me, the essential part is that the diver needs to take ownership of
his dive and make sure that he stays within his NDL and air limits.
*HOW* this is accomplished (tables or computers, SAC calculations vs
50-bar rule) is not as important, as long as it is done.  

Vandit
Art Greenberg - 15 Jan 2007 15:20 GMT

>  For tech stuff, of course.   For recreational diving at the OW level,
>  "start your ascent at 50 bar" is all the gas planning that is *essential*,
>  along with a knowledge that deeper = proportionately more air consumption.

No, I think a bit more than that is necessary, even at the OW level. For
example, knowing to start an ascent at X remaining is not sufficent when
engaged in a boat dive, where the boat is anchored and ascent must take place
on the anchor line. There, knowing when to turn the dive is also important.

>  I do agree with this.  That being said, I dont remember the last time I've
>  planned a no-decompression dive.

Nor can I. But then, on that type of dive, when I look at my SPG its just to
be sure my gas consumption hasn't gone up unexpectedly (or that there's no
leak that I cannot hear or that my buddy didn't spot). That's because you and
I have enough experience to know what to expect on a given dive. We've done
dozens like it. New divers do not have the benefit of that experience, and
should be taught how to plan and manage the breathing gas aspects of a dive.

Signature

Art Greenberg
artg at eclipse dot net

El Stroko Guapo - 15 Jan 2007 21:57 GMT
>> I do agree with this.  That being said, I dont remember the last time I've
>> planned a no-decompression dive.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> dozens like it. New divers do not have the benefit of that experience, and
> should be taught how to plan and manage the breathing gas aspects of a dive.

I'll bet ya do more planning than ya think ya do - I'll bet before all
those "unplanned" dives you could right away tell me what yer depth
profile will be and how long you'll be down.

I don't think much about most of the dives I do, either: the plan is to
do em just like the last one. And that's a valid plan, I survived the
last one.

esg
Shawn B. - 16 Jan 2007 03:16 GMT
> I do agree with this.  That being said, I dont remember the last time
> I've planned a no-decompression dive.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> *HOW* this is accomplished (tables or computers, SAC calculations vs
> 50-bar rule) is not as important, as long as it is done.

I am one of those people who relied too much on the dive computer.  While I
can plan on paper I don't.  I wasn't required to for my OW  cert and I
wasn't required to for my LA SCUBA Adanced Dive Program, either.  But in
both cases, I was required to know how plan a dive on paper, but we weren't
required to execute our dive based on the plan.  Right or wrong?  A couple
weeks ago my dive computer went out on me at depth (just got it back today
completely replaced by a new one under warranty).  It really upset ones
world when they aren't regularily accustomed to diving without planning.  I
ended up renting gear once (they provided me free rentals while my gear was
in the shop) and borrowed some analog gauges from neigbors.  Not ever
wanting to be so vulnerable (due to being unprepared) if my gear fails
again, I'm now planning my dives before the fact and using the computer
merely as a guide and will soon be having redundancy in the form an
additional gear and... my dive plan etched out on slate I take with me so I
have at least a sketch of the dive if the computer fails again but still
have air pressure readings (no air pressure readings the dive is done,
period).

Anyway, my point was that not requiring dive planning for c-certs or
advanced or whatever might be a disservice, but on own initiative not
planning at all is really a disservice.  If you really like to dive and you
rely too much on computers and the computer fails, it really upsets your
whole world and I don't want to experience it again and don't imagine others
want to, either.

Thanks,
Shawn
Greg Mossman - 16 Jan 2007 19:11 GMT
> Not ever
> wanting to be so vulnerable (due to being unprepared) if my gear fails
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> have air pressure readings (no air pressure readings the dive is done,
> period).

Sure you will, for another 10 or 20 dives or so.

> Anyway, my point was that not requiring dive planning for c-certs or
> advanced or whatever might be a disservice, but on own initiative not
> planning at all is really a disservice.  If you really like to dive and you
> rely too much on computers and the computer fails, it really upsets your
> whole world and I don't want to experience it again and don't imagine others
> want to, either.

Of course we want to.  The alternative is spending valuable time in
between dives doing redundant calculations when we could be fiddling
with our camera gear or socializing or eating and rehydrating.  On
trips involving several multilevel dives per day for several days, it
gets to be a real PITA.  If you spend all your down time crunching
tables, it really upsets your whole world and I don't want to
experience it again and don't imagine others want to, either.  Get a
backup computer if you're worried, or suffer the very infrequent
consequences (and maybe fudge it when you do).
Mossman Isfagot - 17 Jan 2007 09:50 GMT
M=most
O=of the
S= stinkies
S=shithole
M=man
A=all over
N=nation wide
Gregmoss Fagot - 31 Jan 2007 10:27 GMT
HUH....THE MOST? WHAT A GIRL...YOUR WIFE IS PRETTY  HUH...WANNA SUCK ME
WHILE I VUC YOUR MAMA?

LOL
Dan Bracuk - 15 Jan 2007 23:18 GMT
"Lee Bell" <pleebell2@bellsouth.net> pounded away at his keyboard
resulting in:
:A small number of divers don't have, or don't understand computers and
:either dive shallow or depend on someone else, a DM, for example, to plan
:and monitor their dive.  In my opinion, which I think is shared by many of
:the people here, these are not divers. They lack the ability to plan and
:execute a planned dive safely without support.  They should not have cards
:that certify otherwise.

I am not one of those people who share this opinion.  We are all
supposed to know our limits.  If these people know their's and stay
within them, they can have all the cards they want.

Dan Bracuk
If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure.
El Stroko Guapo - 15 Jan 2007 15:01 GMT
>>All entry level training, from all agencies, is done to the same
>>standards. There is far more difference between individual instructors
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> rgds
> monty

As Lee and VK point out, there is still planning involved, and I think
it is wrong to imply - even to a beginner - that planning is eliminated.
For every dive there are depth and time factors that must be considered,
even those hard-bottom shallow dives.

What has changed is the tools used to monitor the execution of the plan:
the computer, using real time measurement of depth and time and
calculation of the results, is far more accurate and error free than the
old tables.

The equipment may be more up to date, but the principles of depth and
time planning are still essential.

esg
Lee Bell - 13 Jan 2007 00:16 GMT
>> SDI is just the basic training wing of TDI.  They're notable for
>> developing the Solo cert card.

And for having been called farm animal stupid by GI III.  Of course, many
people here share that distinction.

> Do you know any SDI trained divers?  Can you comment on the quality of
> the training, and if so, compared to what?

I have a TDI Nitrox card.  It's a good thing I knew the information before I
attended the course.  I had to teach the instructor how to read the tables.
Even then, everyone, including him, used nitrox computers, but still,  you'd
think he'd be able to at least do the skills he was supposed to be teaching.

Rumor has it that the SDI courses, the basic level of the company that
includes both SDI and TDI, is providing better training than they used to.
I can't confirm that.  What I can tell you is that, in addition to the Solo
card they introduced, they taught deep air, something every technical diver
I know thinks is a really bad idea.  Oh yes, the former head of the company
is also reputed to have said that he likes to get a bit of a buzz before
diving.  It could be sour grapes from someone who didn't like him, there
were plenty that didn't, but you never know.

> And do you know how SDI divers fare with the sea lice??

I do fine, but I'm TDI, the technical end of things.  If you believe some
that really hate the agency, SDI divers weren't expected to live long enough
to have a problem with sea lice.

Take the course and then you can tell us how they are.

Lee
Al Wells - 13 Jan 2007 01:08 GMT
> Oh yes, the former head of the company
> is also reputed to have said that he likes to get a bit of a buzz before
> diving.  It could be sour grapes from someone who didn't like him, there
> were plenty that didn't, but you never know.

He said he saw nothing wrong with having a beer before a dive. He also
said that he saw no reason to return to the boat with 500 PSI of
perfectly good air. This is not a rumor, it is in his book "Deeper
Diving" (or something like that). I have a copy of it somewhere here.

One of the things that makes SDI a little different is that the tables
can be glossed over and diving with a computer is emphasized. The basic
skills and class time are in accordance with the requirements of the
RSTC and ANSI Z86.3 (either soon to be or now Z375).
Greg Mossman - 13 Jan 2007 04:31 GMT
> He said he saw nothing wrong with having a beer before a dive. He also
> said that he saw no reason to return to the boat with 500 PSI of
> perfectly good air. This is not a rumor, it is in his book "Deeper
> Diving" (or something like that). I have a copy of it somewhere here.

Both statements make perfectly good sense.  Alcohol isn't any worse
than coffee physiologically, and there's no reason why an experienced
diver/drinker should have any problems with an easy dive even with a
little inebriation.  And unless there's some sort of surface conditions
warranting coming back with a reserve amount of air, why not run the
tank down to 200-300 psi?
Al Wells - 13 Jan 2007 13:40 GMT
> Both statements make perfectly good sense.  Alcohol isn't any worse
> than coffee physiologically, and there's no reason why an experienced
> diver/drinker should have any problems with an easy dive even with a
> little inebriation.  And unless there's some sort of surface conditions
> warranting coming back with a reserve amount of air, why not run the
> tank down to 200-300 psi?

I'm not advocating that you drink before diving, but the fact is that
every day many vacationing divers do their first dives in the morning
with a blood alcohol concentration that is higher than one drink, and we
don't see them dying in droves. I've seen cave divers smoke pot before a
dive and not die. There was one well known cave diver (now dead from
natural causes) who bragged about taking LSD and diving in caves. On the
other side, there was a fatality in a deep cave in which evidence of
cocaine use was found in the blood of the dead guy.

I also think that many experienced divers will run their tanks lower
than 500 psi when conditions allow, but I don't think you will find many
instructors who will tell their students it's ok to drink or run your
tank down.
Greg Mossman - 13 Jan 2007 17:21 GMT
> I'm not advocating that you drink before diving, but the fact is that
> every day many vacationing divers do their first dives in the morning
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> other side, there was a fatality in a deep cave in which evidence of
> cocaine use was found in the blood of the dead guy.

Cocaine doesn't sound like a very good idea.  Relaxation is key to a
enjoyable dive for me and helps with maintaining decent air
consumption.  Amped on coke, the poor guy probably sucked down his tank
in half the normal time.  But a drink or two or a toke of certain
herbal substances can make a mellow dive even more mellow without
causing great risk.  The colors underwater become more interesting (not
applicable to caves) and lowered inhibitions make for more meaningful
conversations with tunicates and the like.

> I also think that many experienced divers will run their tanks lower
> than 500 psi when conditions allow, but I don't think you will find many
> instructors who will tell their students it's ok to drink or run your
> tank down.

Nor will you find many that will coach their student divers to hold
their breaths underwater, even though that's sometimes the only way to
get close to big animals without scaring them, stay motionless for
taking photos, etc.  All these topics should be reserved for the
advanced class.
VK - 14 Jan 2007 10:59 GMT
> Both statements make perfectly good sense.  Alcohol isn't any worse
> than coffee physiologically, and there's no reason why an experienced
> diver/drinker should have any problems with an easy dive even with a
> little inebriation.  And unless there's some sort of surface conditions
> warranting coming back with a reserve amount of air, why not run the
> tank down to 200-300 psi?

Because PADI says so and will make you watch Deep Blue many times if
you dont?

Slightly related story - we had a diver recently who was on his 2nd
visit to the islands.  I've dived with him on his first trip and also
went out with him on his first few dives here, and he's a solid diver
who handled the currents and waves we get here in December without any
problems.

So last week, we are going out to dive and I see him light up a joint
on the way out.

Okaaay... I ask him to put it away, atleast till the dive is over.
Turns out that he was prescribed joints by the doctor as a way of
calming his down and that he is normally a very heavy toker.  Later, I
also find out that he's been smoking a joint every morning before
diving!  On that day, he was running late and so couldnt - and as it
turns out, this one day when I find out and stop him from smoking up,
his girlfriend has a buoyancy problem which he tries to solve and ends
up shooting to the surface with her as well.

Go figure.

Vandit

Vandit
Greg Mossman - 14 Jan 2007 17:13 GMT
> So last week, we are going out to dive and I see him light up a joint
> on the way out.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> his girlfriend has a buoyancy problem which he tries to solve and ends
> up shooting to the surface with her as well.

Excellent story.  Did you get the name of his doctor?
VK - 14 Jan 2007 19:10 GMT
> Excellent story.  Did you get the name of his doctor?

My thoughts exactly.  He's German, though... so all bets are off :)

And this is a pretty relaxed island when it comes to natural, herbal
medication, if you get my drift.   ;)

Vandit
Ever Mostman - 15 Jan 2007 23:28 GMT
Yeah, i know ya like to get drunk and dive between the mens legs not the
water...lol
You and New2Everett are lover lol
Chris Guynn - 16 Jan 2007 18:22 GMT
> Yeah, i know ya like to get drunk and dive between the mens legs not the
> water...lol
> You and New2Everett are lover lol

You are the most awesomest WebTV poster to ever post from WebTV.

I just thought you'd like to know that.
bob crownfield - 13 Jan 2007 02:46 GMT
>>> Is anyone familiar with Scuba Diving International as a training
>>> agency?  Have any experience with them?  Ever heard of them?
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> And do you know how SDI divers fare with the sea lice??

you fit in here perfectly!
Shawn B. - 13 Jan 2007 04:45 GMT
> Do you know any SDI trained divers?  Can you comment on the quality of
> the training, and if so, compared to what?

I was trained by a cross-over.  Actually, my instructor was an original
NAUI/PADI trainer.  The shop issues SDI cards by default but I opted for
NAUI (so I have both).  I've seen PADI manuals and NAUI and SDI.  They
appear to be the same.  So it actually boils down the the quality of
training.  Our instructors where not very forgiving.  You either learned and
could put it to comfortable practice or you didn't get certified.  This shop
is located on a beach that has some interesting dive conditions.  They new
how to enter hard surf.  Before our dives, they had us observe the other
classes.  they would point out where the PADI instructors and NAUI and so
on.  It was amuzing to see how many instructors couldn't themselves get past
the waves and into the water.  Many classes gave up.  Its not rocket
science.  But they taught us various techniques and our class had no
fear/problem entering/exiting.

The first time in we were all nearvous.  My wife even refused to go in.  But
the instructors worked with her and helped her overcome the fear.  They were
very patient and knew how to make her desire to go be with the fish.  They
taught us some rescue techniques and navigation.  By our final dive, we at
least were very apt at entering the surf and performing the basics without
hesitation.  We also did much skin diving before entering in order to get
comfortable.

I don't think it was the agency.  It was the instructors.

By the time I started the LA SCUBA ADP program, many of their dives were
damn near nerve wrecking the level.  They would have us do all kinds of
excercises and skin diving such that we would have swam sometimes a mile,
sometimes less/more, and then enter daunting surf (rocks or sand entry) and
not even blink, then do tons of rescue other weird excercises (for 14
weeks).

> And do you know how SDI divers fare with the sea lice??

Funny.

Thanks,
Shawn
Ever Mostman - 15 Jan 2007 23:25 GMT
you don't know sh.t, go to New2Everett and dive between his legs lol

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