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Scuba Forum / General / January 2007death and the older diver
Interesting article in the Cayman Compass. Ten people died in the water in Cayman last year, 8 of whom were snorkelers. Most were over 48, most of the deaths were health related rather than sports related. http://www.caycompass.com/cgi-bin/CFPnews.cgi?ID=1019176 > Interesting article in the Cayman Compass. Ten people died in the water > in Cayman last year, 8 of whom were snorkelers. Most were over 48, > most of the deaths were health related rather than sports related. > > http://www.caycompass.com/cgi-bin/CFPnews.cgi?ID=1019176 I heard there was a rash of scuba deaths. On Jan 11, 1:04 pm, "Douglas W \"Popeye\" Frederick" <Pop...@finalprotectivefire.com> wrote: > > Interesting article in the Cayman Compass. Ten people died in the water > > in Cayman last year, 8 of whom were snorkelers. Most were over 48, > > most of the deaths were health related rather than sports related. > > >http://www.caycompass.com/cgi-bin/CFPnews.cgi?ID=1019176 > I heard there was a rash of scuba deaths. That's awfully exaggerated. Hardly anyone dies from a rash. Probably just sea lice. By far, the majority of divers that suffer sea lice were PADI trained. Coincidence? I doubt it. > On Jan 11, 1:04 pm, "Douglas W \"Popeye\" Frederick" > <Pop...@finalprotectivefire.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > By far, the majority of divers that suffer sea lice were PADI trained. > Coincidence? I doubt it. PADI trains sea lice now?  SignaturePopeye You can get much further with a kind word and a gun than you can with a kind word alone. -Capone www.finalprotectivefire.com "Douglas W \"Popeye\" Frederick" <Popeye@finalprotectivefire.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: : PADI trains sea lice now? Not nearly as well as they used to. If you check in to the sea lice newsgroups you will see a lot of lamenting of how PADI has watered down the standards over the years. Dan Bracuk If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure. Thus spake "Douglas W \"Popeye\" Frederick" <Popeye@finalprotectivefire.com> : >> On Jan 11, 1:04 pm, "Douglas W \"Popeye\" Frederick" >> <Pop...@finalprotectivefire.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > PADI trains sea lice now? I'll teach a sea lice specialty course. Send my $100 and I'll send you a "Distinctive Specialty" merit badge and C-card. Signaturedillon The pen may be mightier than the sword, but I've never seen a .sig beat a Sig. > Thus spake "Douglas W \"Popeye\" Frederick" > <Popeye@finalprotectivefire.com> : >> PADI trains sea lice now? > > I'll teach a sea lice specialty course. Send my $100 and I'll send > you a "Distinctive Specialty" merit badge and C-card. I can think of a c-card or two I might pay 100 bucks for- heh heh heh.... I was just there the other day (loaded thru Laredo), but I had/have a cold so bad I didn't want to infect the family unit. > I was just there the other day (loaded thru Laredo), but I had/have a > cold so bad I didn't want to infect the family unit. Aw man, Fajitas at the restaurant in the Safari Motel, right across the street from the airport. Almost none of those BS vegetables. Tortilla, meat, stuff to put on meat and tortilla. It doesn't get any better than that, well not much. There's someplace on the way out of town that serves tortillas with the meat out of the cheeks of pigs for breakfast. I didn't think it was possible for anything to be better than the beef fajitas in Laredo, but I was wrong. Lee "Popeye" wrote: > > Coincidence? I doubt it. > > PADI trains sea lice now? With WebTV. -hh > "Popeye" wrote: >> > Coincidence? I doubt it. >> >> PADI trains sea lice now? > > With WebTV. :-) > That's awfully exaggerated. Hardly anyone dies from a rash. Probably > just sea lice. > > By far, the majority of divers that suffer sea lice were PADI trained. > Coincidence? I doubt it. The last time my group encountered sea lice, 75% of the group, all initially PADI certified, were affected. 25%, all NAUI initially certified, suffered no significant ill effects. I did, however, look like somebody had polka dotted me with a red pen about a week after the event. Lee > I did, however, look like somebody had polka > dotted me with a red pen about a week after the event. That's probably because you got drunk and passed out and someone polka dotted you with a red pen. You're lucky they didn't draw a big moustache on your face. Oh, wait . . . >> By far, the majority of divers that suffer sea lice were PADI trained. >> Coincidence? I doubt it. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > certified, suffered no significant ill effects. I did, however, look like > somebody had polka dotted me with a red pen about a week after the event. Would there be something training related (no matter how subtle) that would make one more/less susceptble to sea lice that would account for the PADI trained to get infected and NAUI not? I sure am glad that I'm NAUI certified and not PADI. <chuckles>. Thanks, Shaw >> The last time my group encountered sea lice, 75% of the group, all >> initially PADI certified, were affected. 25%, all NAUI initially >> certified, suffered no significant ill effects. I did, however, look >> like somebody had polka dotted me with a red pen about a week after the >> event. > Would there be something training related (no matter how subtle) that > would make one more/less susceptble to sea lice that would account for the > PADI trained to get infected and NAUI not? I sure am glad that I'm NAUI > certified and not PADI. Must be that even sea lice recognize quality. I can't say for sure that it was a PADI/NAUI thing since the 25% that was not adversely affected was also the only one present trained by YMCA. I can say, however, that SSI training was not a significant factor. The same proportion of the affected and unaffected were SSI Master Divers. It's quite odd how biological things affect people. My wife reacts to everything from contact poison plants to common red ants, to fire coral and, of course, sea lice. That's the bad part. The good part is that she reacts so quickly, she usually has a chance to get away from things before it's bad . . . except sea lice. I don't even want to think what would happen if a man-o-war or a sea wasp (less deadly Florida version) got her. I react to almost nothing except fire ants (what a nasty surprise that was) and one particular small red jellyfish (encountered while surfing up around Cocoa long ago), one that seems to sting nobody else. Go figure. She's the measure by which others know it's time to get out of the water. When we got into them, we were lounging in the water off Bimini, having a drink or two and watching the sunset. Soon after getting into the water, she complained about something biting her. She got out and, in less than an hour, was broken out with puss filled pimples. It hit her that fast. She was miserable for day. Everybody else got out as well. The next day, another of our party broke out. His wife broke out the day after that. Seven days later, I looked in the mirror and noticed small dots all over my body. Every inch of me had one or more. No itching, no infection, no nothing. An hour or so later, they were gone. I've never paid a lot of attention to potential poisons around me. For most of my life, I didn't even know what poison ivy, oak, etc. looked like. I didn't get out of the water because there were Portuguese man-o-war in it and I didn't even think twice about fire coral. If it's not convenient to avoid them, I let ordinary red ants bite me to their heart's content while I do whatever I need to do. No more. My wife is so sensitive to this stuff that she breaks out if I touch poison ivy and later touch her. Fire coral grows on things just so it can sting her. It's the curse of being married to the, otherwise, perfect woman. Lee > >> The last time my group encountered sea lice, 75% of the group, all > >> initially PADI certified, were affected. 25%, all NAUI initially [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > was a PADI/NAUI thing since the 25% that was not adversely affected was also > the only one present trained by YMCA.... Personally, I do believe that avoidance of some hazards are due to training factors. And while its tempting, I'm hesitatant to assign this to 'Agency' as opposed to 'environment'. Thus said, while we might be tempted to say that some Agencies do a better job about teaching about environments other than just the one you're immediately in, that's usually more of an individual instructor thing. For example, Lee has a story of some IIRC PADI Texas lake divers who couldn't perform natural navigation on a high visibility reef that happened to have a slight current (not present in lakes). Blame PADI for not teaching about currents or blame the current-free lake environment they learned in? I had a similar experience in 2005 which we joked at the time might have been the same group: another Texas PADI Instructor with a group from his shop that were getting their AOW's on this trip. To make a long story short, these PADI freshwater divers did not know any of the night diving techniques to avoid attracting or getting stung by Sea Wasps in tropical saltwater, nor were they briefed on them by their Instructor prior to the applicable *training* dive. Here's a photo that was taken right after last diver onboard: <http://www.huntzinger.com/photo/2005/brac/sea_wasps.jpg> It was a "worse than average" night for Sea Wasps, but the main reason why it was so bad was because the instructor took his AOW class right under the diveboat and effectively sat their for 30+ minutes with big bright lights on, which attracted them all in. They then left all their lights on while coming up to do their safety stop, which simply concentrated them in even more at the surface. And none of them knew to vent air to blow a hole through them for the final ascent & exit. This was mentioned by the dive staff in their site briefing, but being a training dive, it was usurped by the Instructor giving his guidance and wasn't picked up and repeated. I don't want to say that they "got what they deserved", because as students, they didn't know better: it was the instructor's ignorance - - and his failure to heed local diving knowledge - - of how to dive in the local conditions. He ended up turning off a lot of people on night dives. The instructor got nailed, but apparently not thoroughly enough: he sloughed it off with the ignorant attitude that it was just his "bad luck" - something that couldn't ever be avoided since he believed that there was nothing he could do about it. The two divers that did *not* get stung were the two of us who were *not* in his AOW class. Very little "luck" was involved. > It's quite odd how biological things affect people. My wife reacts to > everything... Some people are notorious "sweet meat" for mosquito's, such as my wife. Interestingly, we found out last year that the Tsetse Fly doesn't pay much attention to her, and if she does get bitten, hardly reacts. I'm apparently like most Westerners in that I end up with a red, itchy ~3/4" diameter welt. -hh >> >> The last time my group encountered sea lice, 75% of the group, all >> >> initially PADI certified, were affected. 25%, all NAUI initially [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > teaching about environments other than just the one you're immediately > in, that's usually more of an individual instructor thing. There you go, getting all serious on a fun topic. I don't blame anybody for failure to train about biological issues except as follows: 1. I think every agency should train it's students that there are biological hazards and provide some basic information on recognizing general types, the environments they're likely to be in, and what to do if one is encountered. This is information of the most general type, aimed more at alerting the student to the possibility of risk and helping promote thinking about risks and planning for them. 2. I think every training facility should provide specific training on biological hazards common to their area. It should include how to recognize the risk, how to avoid the risk and what to do if it is encountered anyway, including information on appropriate first aid and medical treatment. It need not include complete first aid or medical information, but it should, at a minimum, include a general description that will allow students who choose to be responsible, to pursue further training. As far as I know, no agency currently requires inclusion of this level of instruction. > For example, Lee has a story of some IIRC PADI Texas lake divers who > couldn't perform natural navigation on a high visibility reef that > happened to have a slight current (not present in lakes). Blame PADI > for not teaching about currents or blame the current-free lake > environment they learned in? Actually, I blame the instructor first and the students second, for their failure to recognize there was a problem the first time they were unable to return to the boat and their failure to do something about it. They were out of their element, facing risks they did not know they would encounter. More than that, though, I blame them, individually and as a group, for failing to listen to more than one diver experienced with the conditions that were giving them problems. That kind of arrogance is not limited to a single agency, but it does seem to be more prevalent among PADI affiliated instructors, DMs and divers. Before someone says it, it's also common among those trained by highly specialized technical diving organizations, whether wreck, cave, or otherwise oriented. > I had a similar experience in 2005 which we joked at the time might > have been the same group: another Texas PADI Instructor with a group [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Wasps in tropical saltwater, nor were they briefed on them by their > Instructor prior to the applicable *training* dive. Oops. > Here's a photo that was taken right after last diver onboard: > <http://www.huntzinger.com/photo/2005/brac/sea_wasps.jpg> Big oops. > It was a "worse than average" night for Sea Wasps, but the main reason > why it was so bad was because the instructor took his AOW class right [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > a training dive, it was usurped by the Instructor giving his guidance > and wasn't picked up and repeated. Maybe its a Texas thing and not PADI . . . nah, it's probably both. > I don't want to say that they "got what they deserved", because as > students, they didn't know better: it was the instructor's ignorance - > - and his failure to heed local diving knowledge - - of how to dive in > the local conditions. He ended up turning off a lot of people on > night dives. Yep. > Some people are notorious "sweet meat" for mosquito's, such as my wife. > Interestingly, we found out last year that the Tsetse Fly doesn't pay > much attention to her, and if she does get bitten, hardly reacts. I'm > apparently like most Westerners in that I end up with a red, itchy > ~3/4" diameter welt. Mosquitoes love my wife too. I sometimes wonder whether it's that I'm bitten less often or that, because I don't react, I don't notice I'm being bitten as much as she does. She welts up with mosquito bites. I don't welt up from anything I know of except fire ants. Lee > I don't blame anybody for failure to train about biological issues except as follows: > > [1, 2] Agreed; both are generally reasonable. The disappointing instructors are the ones who teach nothing, under the supposed rationale that their students will never get anywhere near saltwater ... and then proceed to take these same students out into saltwater for their checkout dives. > > For example, Lee has a story of some IIRC PADI Texas lake divers who > > couldn't [cope with a] slight current (not present in lakes)... [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > return to the boat and their failure to do something about it. They were > out of their element, facing risks they did not know they would encounter. This very strongly parallels my Sea Wasp incident. The staff specifically mentioned the potential hazard, but the Instructor ignored their input while prepping "his" students for "his" night dive. Since he didn't follow local SOP's to avoid stings, it was obvious to me and the crew that he didn't know them, either. It really wouldn't have mattered if he would have gotten nailed ten more times, for it was clear that his attitude precluded any humility or admission that it was his own damn fault that he (and his students) all got zapped. > More than that, though, I blame them, individually and as a group, for > failing to listen to more than one diver experienced with the conditions > that were giving them problems. Likely because said knowledgable advisor didn't flash an "Instructors" badge to supposedly have enough credibility to be worth listening to. Very parochial and narrowsighted, but not a problem unique to diving. > > Here's a photo that was taken right after last diver onboard: > > <http://www.huntzinger.com/photo/2005/brac/sea_wasps.jpg> > > Big oops. I've counted 99 in that photo, and the field of view only represented probably 15% of the area behind the boat. Very safe to say that we had 500-1000 sea wasps within 10ft of the dive platform - - and I can also say that at the start of the dive, there were *none* present there, so it was obvious that we attracted them in. > Maybe its a Texas thing and not PADI . . . nah, it's probably both. I heard that Alaska is thinking about splitting into North Alaska and South Alaska; their motivation to do this is that it would make Texas the *THIRD* largest state :-) > > I don't want to say that they "got what they deserved", because as > > students, they didn't know better: it was the instructor's ignorance - [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Yep. Plus this same group was also generally overweighted. Its not too often that you see a diver using 20lbs with a 3mm shorty, but there were multiple examples in this group. The dive manager tried to intercede without undermining the other instructor's authority, by giving 3 briefings on weighting optimization instead of the normal 1. I think he only had two divers take him up on it - they dropped over 5lbs and were happy that they did, but the rest of them remained "dull sheep" uninterested. It was a ticklish spot for the local manager, since he didn't want to flat out tell this group that their group leader wasn't being a very good instructor, because that would probably mean that next year's class would go to a different resort. -hh hh wrote > Agreed; both are generally reasonable. The disappointing instructors > are the ones who teach nothing, under the supposed rationale that their > students will never get anywhere near saltwater ... and then proceed to > take these same students out into saltwater for their checkout dives. Good point although, in my limited experience with that combination, most that did that didn't have the required knowledge in the first place. They were freshwater or confined water divers themselves, taking their students to salt water primarily so they could write of their own trip. > This very strongly parallels my Sea Wasp incident. The staff > specifically mentioned the potential hazard, but the Instructor ignored > their input while prepping "his" students for "his" night dive. Yes it does. I didn't miss that relationship. >> More than that, though, I blame them, individually and as a group, for >> failing to listen to more than one diver experienced with the conditions >> that were giving them problems. > Likely because said knowledgable advisor didn't flash an "Instructors" > badge to supposedly have enough credibility to be worth listening to. > Very parochial and narrowsighted, but not a problem unique to diving. Possibly. I know I didn't because I don't have an instructor's badge to flash . . . and never will have one. > I've counted 99 in that photo, and the field of view only represented > probably 15% of the area behind the boat. Very safe to say that we had > 500-1000 sea wasps within 10ft of the dive platform - - and I can also > say that at the start of the dive, there were *none* present there, so > it was obvious that we attracted them in. Lights will do it every time. > I heard that Alaska is thinking about splitting into North Alaska and > South Alaska; their motivation to do this is that it would make Texas > the *THIRD* largest state :-) Old, Hugh, very old . . . but still funny. > Plus this same group was also generally overweighted. Its not too > often that you see a diver using 20lbs with a 3mm shorty, but there > were multiple examples in this group. One of the clearest and most certain signs of an instructor that is either incompetent, or does not care enough to bother working with his students until they get it right. Lee > As far as I know, no agency currently requires inclusion of this level of > instruction. My training basically introduced us to local dive hazards, some more common ones like scorpion fish and fire coral and such but then left a wide open disclaimer: always survey local dive sites/knowledge for hazards and medical procedures if somethings happens and here, sign up for DAN. They also suggest learning from locals the best way to enter/exit the waters (if shore diving). I recon that's what most agencies do (I was NAUI certified and even ADP doesn't cover everything but they focus on local (Los Angeles) hazards mostly). Because of Steve Irwin's death, a lot more people I know are now fuly aware not to go poking and prodding at sea life, especially rays, with the same degree of understanding that they won't go poking and proding at their neighbors rotweiler or pitbull, as well. But, that's only one obvious type of hazard. Specific fish and coral and jelly-fish breading seasons/locations are much less known and I think it falls on the instructor to be educated in the specifics where they'll be doing the AOW dives. Thanks, Shawn Mosssman you are a old gay f.cker scuba in the world > Mosssman you are a old gay f.cker scuba in the world You'd appear a lot more intelligent if you quoted the post to which you are replying. Signature“TAANSTAFL” ____________________________________________________________________________ "A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for them; The simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences." - Proverbs 22:3 ____________________________________________________________________________ >> Mosssman you are a old gay f.cker scuba in the world >> > You'd appear a lot more intelligent if you quoted the post to which you > are replying. A "lot"? I may have to drag out the Stevebonics translator for this guy. >> You'd appear a lot more intelligent if you quoted the post to which you >> are replying. > > A "lot"? > > I may have to drag out the Stevebonics translator for this guy. Much easier......."plonk" okay, Voodooo vooga fogay, gay f.ck the Mossman Douglas W Popeye Frederick napisal(a): > > Interesting article in the Cayman Compass. Ten people died in the water > > in Cayman last year, 8 of whom were snorkelers. Most were over 48, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > I heard there was a rash of scuba deaths. Be careful. You are at the right age. > Interesting article in the Cayman Compass. Ten people died in the water > in Cayman last year, 8 of whom were snorkelers. Most were over 48, > most of the deaths were health related rather than sports related. > > http://www.caycompass.com/cgi-bin/CFPnews.cgi?ID=1019176 That's why I don't snorkel and never go to Cayman. esg gonna dive til I die, or die trying > Interesting article in theCaymanCompass. Ten people died in the water > in Cayman last year... > > http://www.caycompass.com/cgi-bin/CFPnews.cgi?ID=1019176 Looks like 2007 is off to a start: 1 diver + 1 snorkler: <http://www.caycompass.com/cgi-bin/CFPnews.cgi?ID=1019518> Both were older and likely health-related. -hh
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