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Scuba Forum / General / January 2007Hall's Dive Center: The WORST diving experience in my 30 years in diving:
The WORST diving experience in my 30 years in diving: I want to share our recent diving experience with HALL'S DIVING CENTER located in Marathon, Florida. Upon our arrival in the Marathon, I called Hall's on the afternoon of December 26th, 2006. My inquiry was simple. What was the visibility? I was informed 30-40 feet! Cool, I made an appointment for two dives for the next morning. I was informed that the dive, with the requested rental equipment would run less than $300 for the three of us. Having my wife and daughter (16 years of age), daughter having 20 dives under belt, I wanted to make sure that the diving visibility would be sufficient enough for them to both enjoy the dive and 30 feet would certainly offer this to them. Upon arrival at Hall's the next morning, I once again asked what we can expect for visibility. I was assured 30-40 feet once again. After securing the rental for my wife and daughter I was informed that the cost would be $324.00 for the rentals and the two dives for the three of us? Fair enough I said. I'm not one to grip over a few bucks. While still in the shop, we were informed that the dive master on our boat would not be in the water with us? Hmmm, I have dived the world and never experienced this before, but I have 300 plus dives and many from the key's years back. With the Visibility as stated, I was not concerned being in the water with just my wife and daughter. We were the only divers going out at this point. What turned out to be a fortunate addition, Glen, a seasoned diver as well from New Jersey was joining us for this trip. We arrived at the site...Sombrero Reef and set anchor. We entered the water in chop of 2-4 feet and as a group, began our descent. It was immediately apparent that the visibility was no where close to being 30-40 feet. In fact, we were lucky to have 2 feet! Upon our descent, I immediately lost my wife. She was having difficulty descending and needed additional weight. The three of us, Glen, daughter and I waited on the bottom for 60 seconds and then ascended to the surface. I located the bubbles of my wife who drifted away about 30 yards with the current. I swam over and brought her back to the boat for additional weight. We decided to try the descent once more, this time while holding the anchor line. Upon reaching the bottom, Glen and I decided to call the dive. The visibility was too dangerous! I was following my daughter's fins and could not make out the rest of her body. That's how treacherous it was! Upon our return to the shop, I kindly explained to the shop manager (name escapes me) that I explicitly asked about the visibility for the safety and enjoyment of my family, and he advised that with the current winds, it would take a few days worth of tidal change to bring back the visibility? Why I was not advised of this earlier is beyond me! In fact, they cancelled all of the afternoon dives that day as well! I was extremely happy having Glen in the water with me to buddy up with my wife. Without Glen's assistance, I would surely have had my hands full and most likely would have called the dive prior to the second attempt to ascend. Being the understanding person I am, I requested a credit towards our credit card for HALF of the dive. That being approximately $150.00.We used less than 500 psi of the tanks air before returning to the boat. I was advised that they would NOT refund any amount, but would offer us coupons for future use. This was unacceptable given the facts and that I did not anticipate visiting the key's in the near future. In fact, it has been 6 years since our last visit. Most of our diving trips are to either Belize or Roatan and these coupons were pretty much useless for our future use. I would be surprised if this dive shop was still in business by the time we returned to the Keys anyway? Hall's Dive Center is without a doubt the most unprofessional dive facility I have ever encountered. Beware....I would not recommend anyone utilizing their services! As a DAN member, I felt it was my duty to advise others of this unfortunate experience. Dive centers in the keys are a cut throat business, but as we all know, safety should come first and in this instance is certainly was not! http://www.hallsdiving.com/halls/index.htm > After securing the rental for my wife and daughter I was informed that > the cost would be $324.00 for the rentals and the two dives for the > three of us? Fair enough I said. I'm not one to grip over a few bucks. Obviously they didn't quote sales tax initially... That's not that uncommon... Rarely does a company quote sales tax when you ask them the price on something... > While still in the shop, we were informed that the dive master on our > boat would not be in the water with us? Hmmm, I have dived the world and > never experienced this before, but I have 300 plus dives and many from > the key's years back. With the Visibility as stated, I was not concerned > being in the water with just my wife and daughter. We were the only > divers going out at this point. Of the dives that I've done in the Keys, none have ever had a dive master as a guide for the dive... That's just not the way that things are done there... Dive masters are for tying up to the wreck, taking your fins after the dive, and ensuring that the box of animal crackers stays stocked... With regards to the visibility, you probably should have made an issue of it with the captain of the boat... Perhaps he could have chosen a reef further out that might have had better visibility... On the other hand, sometimes you get crappy visibility no matter what was originally predicted... > Obviously they didn't quote sales tax initially... That's not that > uncommon... Rarely does a company quote sales tax when you ask them the > price on something... Probably. If he charged $300 on the nose and Key Largo charges a 2% resort tax on top of Florida's 6$ sales tax, that would explain it. I can't, however, confirm the tax rate in Key Largo . . . yet. > > Obviously they didn't quote sales tax initially... That's not that > > uncommon... Rarely does a company quote sales tax when you ask them the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > tax on top of Florida's 6$ sales tax, that would explain it. I can't, > however, confirm the tax rate in Key Largo . . . yet. Most of you guy's are missing the point....It's certainly not about the money...hell, I'll spend $300 bucks on a bottle of wine with dinner. And it's not the fact that my wife slithered off either. For those that have ONLY dived without a DM...I feel sorry for you. I guess that limits your diving to the KEYS? Maybe Bonaire? My last four dives in the KEYS were in fact with DM, granted 6 years ago, so this was a bit unusal for me. The main fact is that Halls should have been able to predict the vis and informed professionally. I asked twice. What more could I have done. I wonder what would happen if I could'nt predict the level 4 thunderstorm 100 miles ahead of my plane and route and flew right into it? And I wonder what would happen if you or your loved one bounced their head off the fuslage and cause injury???As a pilot, it is MY responsibility for the safety of the plane and crew....This should be no different from a dive boat. The captain was obviously a hired hand. Once we docked, he was off the boat and in his car in a New York Second...GONE. Everyone has an opinion, thanks for sharing! > Most of you guy's are missing the point....It's certainly not about the > money...hell, I'll spend $300 bucks on a bottle of wine with dinner. So then why complain? The guy gave you an estimate, and it came in a little high. Are you shocked, SHOCKED!!! that this could happen? > And it's not the fact that my wife slithered off either Right. Because that is her fault and yours. The dive operator didn't have anything to do with it. > For those that have ONLY dived without a DM...I feel sorry for you. I guess that > limits your diving to the KEYS? Maybe Bonaire? Right. Puget Sound and the Sunshine Coast. I've never been off a boat down California way, but I'm not getting in the water with a DM there, either. You can't seem to manage a dive without someone to hold your hand, and you feel sorry for us. Rich! You need to get out more. > My last four dives in the KEYS were in fact with DM, granted 6 years > ago, so this was a bit unusal for me. The fact that you are shocked, SHOCKED!!! that no one will provide you with a nursemaid says more about your diving experience than anything else. Hint: You are a certified SCUBA diver. You should, at a minimum, be able to plan your dive and dive your plan. If you are unable to do so without assistance, you should take up something safer. > The main fact is that Halls should have been able to predict the vis > and informed professionally. I asked twice. What more could I have > done. Proveided them with the crystal ball you seem to think all these dive operators have? In predicting the weather, we have such things as radar and weather baloons and other neat instruments. In predicting visibility, we have pretty much nothing other than on site reports. > The captain was obviously a hired hand. Once we docked, he was off the > boat and in his car in a New York Second...GONE. And? He took you out, he put you in the water, he picked you up, and he brought you back. What other responsibility do you think he has to you? > > Most of you guy's are missing the point....It's certainly not about the > > money...hell, I'll spend $300 bucks on a bottle of wine with dinner. [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > > What other responsibility do you think he has to you? As in all walks of life and yes, even in blogs and in forum's, there always that one A$$ Hole that feels he knows it all and would argue the most minute point. You add nothing of valus like the others have to my post, I'm thinking you work at Hall's or know someone that does...move along sponge... > As in all walks of life and yes, even in blogs and in forum's, there > always that one A$$ Hole that feels he knows it all and would argue the > most minute point. > > You add nothing of valus like the others have to my post, I'm thinking > you work at Hall's or know someone that does...move along sponge... I'm really sorry no one is buying your "blame someone else" style. You haven't said one thing the dive shop did wrong, yet here you are crying like a little girl. Which minute points are you having issues with? So far, you've brought up the following whines. 1. Dive shop unable to predict visibility. Response: Welcome to diving. The ocean is unpredictable. 2. I wasn't provided with a divemaster! Response: You do not need a dive master to dive. Many people here prefer it that way. If you wanted one, you could have asked for one. 3. My wife wandered away on the dive. Response: This is your, and your wife's fault, exclusively. The dive operator bears no responsibility because you are unable to execute basic buddy procedures. 4. I didn't get a refund! Response: Of course not. You did the dive. So what, exactly, is your beef? On Mon, 08 Jan 2007 15:38:36 -0800, in <1168299516.254294.254290@s34g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, Jerome's Sock Puppet wrote: > I'm really sorry no one is buying your "blame someone else" style. You > haven't said one thing the dive shop did wrong, yet here you are crying > like a little girl. Well, he's posting from New Jersey... That sort of attitude is not really that surprising coming from one of those people up there... Most Florida operators do not put a DM in the water. I ask if I have not used the operator before; if they put a DM in the water I don't go out with them. You should have asked, too. As for the viz thing, I have a little more sympathy. There are about twenty seven thousand operators in the upper keys (maybe a half dozen competent ones). They all have radios. They all tie up at the same five buoys. There is no excuse for not knowing what the viz is, unless you are the very first boat out in the morning. Anyone who tells an afternoon dive that the viz is 30-40 when it's arm's length is either stupid or ripping off the tourists. Personally, I try to avoid the tourist destinations. esg > Most Florida operators do not put a DM in the water. I ask if I have not > used the operator before; if they put a DM in the water I don't go out [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Personally, I try to avoid the tourist destinations. I've never seen 2 ft of viz anywhere in the Keys in a score of trips, and near ten score dives. That's from mm99 to mm0. I've never seen 2 ft of viz -inside- the Duane or the Bibb. At any rate, viz isn't like predicting where a cat 4 storm will be in front of your plane. It's like predicting where a cloud will be, in front of your plane. At a precise place and time. A seasoned diver should know that. Douglas W Popeye Frederick wrote > I've never seen 2 ft of viz anywhere in the Keys in a score of trips, and > near ten score dives. That's from mm99 to mm0. I've never seen 2 ft of > viz -inside- the Duane or the Bibb. 1. You normally contact somebody local before you go. 2. You tend to dive with people you know, people that are more interested in ensuring you, and they, have a good time than the money you give them. 3. You tend to dive deeper sites, or at least be willing to, giving your captain the chance to go find something with more than two feet of viz. 4. You're easy to please. I've seen less than two feet of viz on some of the sites nearer to shore. The first time I saw Hens and Chickens, I damned near ran into the reef face first before I saw it. Luckily, the first time I saw Looe Key, visibility was good, even by Keys standards, but I've been back times when it too was completely silted out. Being willing, and having a captain that is willing, to thumb the planned site in favor of something with better visibility, usually deeper, sometimes a lot deeper is a big advantage. Lee > Douglas W Popeye Frederick wrote > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > Lee Yeah, it can get pretty gummy. My point was, after the first boat goes out everyone knows. esg > Yeah, it can get pretty gummy. > My point was, after the first boat goes out everyone knows. I know and agree. On the other hand, we've all seen a nice, calm morning with a completely blown out afternoon. Frankly, I doubt that was the case this time. As you know, being almost as local as I am, winds were up for at least a week on either side of Christmas. They're not new to the business. They knew that visibility wasn't real good and, in my opinion, should have been able to look out the window on the morning of the dive and known it wasn't going to be 30 - 40 feet either. When Curtis and Hugh chose Scuba Do, I was unimpressed with the cost of the trip. When I showed up at the dock and the captain was completely honest about what we could expect, I was impressed. I'm not used to such honesty in the Keys. Honesty is worth something. Lee > You add nothing of valus like the others have to my post, I'm thinking > you work at Hall's or know someone that does...move along sponge... Wrong latitude and longitude by about as far as it's possible to be wrong and still be in the US. You had a bad day in the Keys. We've all had them. Halls does not have the best reputation either as a training agency or as a dive charter, but they're not much different from a whole host of other tourist boat operations. There are operators in the Keys who could have found better visibility for you, but they would have had to take you to considerably deeper sites to do it. I get the impression that at least some of your family divers, perhaps all of you, aren't really comfortable with deep diving. Of course I could be wrong, but that's how it sounded. Sorry you had a bad time, but, while Halls didn't do anything particularly right, they didn't do anything particularly wrong either. Next time, check with us before you go and, perhaps we can hook you up with something you'll like better. Some of us liver here. Others visit often. Keep an eye on the "any diving plans for Aught7?" thread started by Dan Bracuc and you might even get a chance to meet some of the jerks that responded to you . . . including me. We dive a lot nicer than we newsgroup. Lee > > You add nothing of valus like the others have to my post, I'm thinking > > you work at Hall's or know someone that does...move along sponge... [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Lee Thanks Lee...I have taken an advanced open water along with Wreck diving courses. I'm very comfortable at depth and my deepest was 145-156 in the blue Hole:-)!! Three times! My wife and daughter on the other hand are just open water certified, so my blah...blah...blahing was more for the safety of the family...my main intent whenever I\we do extreme sports.... The Keys were a VERY last minute choice and only for three days before we headed up to Palm Coast to visit with family. FYI....We went to Roatan in August 05 as a family trip. I have been back twice w/out the family as we ended up purchasing a lot there for future development....I see myself diving their often and without a DM... > Thanks Lee...I have taken an advanced open water along with Wreck > diving courses. I'm very comfortable at depth and my deepest was > 145-156 in the blue Hole:-)!! Three times! You're welcome. BTW, your statement that you're comfortable at depth and the depths you're comfortable with means more here than your certifications. > My wife and daughter on the other hand are just open water certifiedg . . > . That was my guess. > The Keys were a VERY last minute choice and only for three days before > we headed up to Palm Coast to visit with family. > FYI....We went to Roatan in August 05 as a family trip. I have been > back twice w/out the family as we ended up purchasing a lot there for > future development....I see myself diving their often and without a > DM... Well, if you can't live in S. Florida, I suppose Roatan isn't a bad second choice <grin>. Lee PS: Don't let Scott tell you the Pacific NW has the best diving in the US. He's biased. > PS: Don't let Scott tell you the Pacific NW has the best diving in the US. > He's biased. Okay, then, I'll tell him. :-) * (snip)> FYI....We went to Roatan in August 05 as a family trip. I have been > back twice w/out the family as we ended up purchasing a lot there for > future development....I see myself diving their often and without a > DM... I've spent a lot of time diving in Roatan. I was just there for a week in late November. Never got wet. Weather and bad conditions happen. > was more for the safety of the family...my > main intent whenever I\we do extreme sports.... Extreme sports? Diving on the Florida reefs from a cattle boat? <snicker> > As in all walks of life and yes, even in blogs and in forum's, there > always that one A$$ Hole that feels he knows it all and would argue the > most minute point. > > You add nothing of valus like the others have to my post, I'm thinking > you work at Hall's or know someone that does...move along sponge... AW..RIGHT!!!! That's the spirit! If someone doesn't agree with you they re automatically an a.shole or a shill for your antagonist. You'll fit right in here!  SignatureRay Contreras =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Webmonkey for: http://www.ossystems.com http://www.bobs-garage.com http://www.coltri-usa.com http://www.rayzplace.com > AW..RIGHT!!!! That's the spirit! If someone doesn't agree with you they > re automatically an a.shole or a shill for your antagonist. You'll fit > right in here! Ray, now don't be misleading the guy. You know it takes more than that to be a Rec.Scuba a.shole. Lee >>> Most of you guy's are missing the point....It's certainly not about the >>> money...hell, I'll spend $300 bucks on a bottle of wine with dinner. [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] >> able to plan your dive and dive your plan. If you are unable to do so >> without assistance, you should take up something safer. perfectly put. the diver is responsible for himself. the diver does not need his hand held for the dive. who wants or needs a hand holding dive? who want to be led around like a student? (or are you padi trained?) > For those that have ONLY dived without a DM...I feel sorry for you. I fail to see why. As one of our more "colorful" members might remark, "DMs are only good for brewing coffee, if that". > I guess that limits your diving to the KEYS? Maybe Bonaire? Hardly. > My last four dives in the KEYS were in fact with DM, granted 6 years > ago, so this was a bit unusal for me. As others have said, it is unusal for the Keys, except upon request. I have been on charters without any Dm's even onboard the boat, just a Captain. Nor were any needed, at all. > The main fact is that Halls should have been able to predict the vis > and informed professionally. I asked twice. What more could I have > done. Ask returning divers the trip/day before??? Don't feel so bad. I once went to the Keys in late summer, rented a house on the water for a week ($+-1000), dragged my boat the whole damn way (5hr drive), and never left the dock due to crap weather. Such is weather in Fla. > I wonder what would happen if I could'nt predict the level 4 > thunderstorm 100 miles ahead of my plane and route and flew right into > it? And I wonder what would happen if you or your loved one bounced > their head off the fuslage and cause injury???As a pilot, it is MY > responsibility for the safety of the plane and crew....This should be > no different from a dive boat. You did not encounter any "unsafe" boat operations as far as I can tell. As for your pilot analogy, lets suppose a passenger came up to you after a flight said, "I wanted to take some very memorable pictures of the Grand Canyon on our plane trip and all these clouds -you didn't tell me about- obscured the visibilty". "Why didn't you tell me about those clouds over the Grand Canyon prior to the trip? You said it would be clear weather, remember?" "Do I get a discount on my plane ticket? It was not clear the whole way, like you said." > The captain was obviously a hired hand. Once we docked, he was off the > boat and in his car in a New York Second...GONE. I've never had an airline pilot stay around after landing either. I bet they go straight to the bar. > Everyone has an opinion, thanks for sharing! I would recommend asking here, in rec.scuba.locations, or on any of the other popular boards as there are many fine, smaller ops in the Keys with vocal, repeat fans. Sorry about your wash-out but given nice conditions and a real pro, caring, operator the Keys still remain perhaps the best diving in the USA. -- SJM > Sorry about your wash-out but given nice conditions and a real pro, > caring, operator the Keys still > remain perhaps the best diving in the USA. The best diving in the USA is in Canada, regardless of your operator. :) > The best diving in the USA is in Canada, regardless of your operator. > :) Maybe, but you have to use a chainsaw to get to it. Brrrrr. There's a cold front headed my way. Temperatures will drop precipitously, all the way down to the mid to upper 60's . . . maybe. Hope I don't have to dig my car out of that white stuff . . . what do you call that stuff? Lee > Temperatures will drop precipitously, all the way down to the mid to upper 60's . . . maybe. Well lets hope it's a dry heat. I do believe I would wilt like the delicate flower I am... >> Temperatures will drop precipitously, all the way down to the mid to >> upper 60's . . . maybe. > Well lets hope it's a dry heat. I do believe I would wilt like the > delicate flower I am... Yeah, me too. Lee > There's a cold front headed my way. Temperatures will drop precipitously, > all the way down to the mid to upper 60's . . . maybe. > > Hope I don't have to dig my car out of that white stuff . . . what do you > call that stuff? Sand. Get your vehicle stuck on the beach often? -- SJM >> Hope I don't have to dig my car out of that white stuff . . . what do you >> call that stuff? > Sand. A lot of the sand down here is actually crushed shell and it's usually not white. > Get your vehicle stuck on the beach often? As far as I know, there are no longer any beaches in South Florida where you can drive a vehicle. When I do go off road, I don't get stuck, well not in sand, anyway. I drive a Honda Rancher ES. Lee > As far as I know, there are no longer any beaches in South Florida where you > can drive a vehicle. Isn't it true that the comical locals cops (aka "sand troopers") are known to occasionally run over beach goers down there and refer to this practice as "planting". You might mention this in So Fla tourist promotions. -- SJM On Wed, 10 Jan 2007 12:16:31 -0800, in <1168460191.195123.148350@p59g2000hsd.googlegroups.com>, Scott McFadden wrote: > Isn't it true that the comical locals cops (aka "sand troopers") are > known to occasionally run over beach goers down there and refer to this > practice as "planting". Don't know what they might call it, but I have read of a couple of cases over the years where the local cops driving on the sand have physically run over someone... Texas beaches are still open for driving, although there are a couple of places where it is not possible to gain access thus preventing you from driving your car on the beach... Some places restrict it to only licensed vehicles on the beach so as to keep ATVs off of there... Of course, with a little work, you could license an ATV... >> As far as I know, there are no longer any beaches in South Florida where >> you [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > known to occasionally run over beach goers down there and refer to this > practice as "planting". I think that's happened up around Daytona a few times, but I don't recall seeing anything like that down here. Then again, the press down here would do everything in their power to ensure I didn't see it. Lee "flyboy08" <phoward@aeroconsulting.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: :The main fact is that Halls should have been able to predict the vis :and informed professionally. I asked twice. What more could I have :done. You did as much as you could have. If the answer was accurate based on the last time they were out on the reef, they did all they could have. When it comes to vis, you never know till you get there. Dan Bracuk If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure. > Most of you guy's are missing the point....It's certainly not about the > money...hell, I'll spend $300 bucks on a bottle of wine with dinner. Actually, we got the point. What we're saying is that, assuming it was tax, you got an honest price, at least as honest as you get from anyone. Prices are almost always quoted before tax. > For those that have ONLY dived without a DM...I feel sorry for you. I > guess that limits your diving to the KEYS? Maybe > Bonaire? All of Florida, many of the Bahamas, all of the Caymans, Cozumel . . . not exactly Florida only. Nobody said that they only dive without a DM. What we said was that it's the norm in Florida. Florida is, after all, where you were. > The main fact is that Halls should have been able to predict the vis and > informed professionally. I asked twice. What more could I > have done. I've lived and boated here for 52 years and been diving here for 44 years. I can't predict the visibility and I explained why they couldn't either. > I wonder what would happen if I could'nt predict the level 4 thunderstorm > 100 miles ahead of my plane and route and flew right > into it? And I wonder what would happen if you or your loved one bounced > their head off the fuslage and cause injury???As a < pilot, it is MY responsibility for the safety of the plane and crew....This should be no different from a dive boat. Can you predict it without information from outside sources, without seeing it and without electronic sensing equipment? Neither can Halls. > The captain was obviously a hired hand. Once we docked, he was off the > boat and in his car in a New York Second...GONE. You mean just like pilots? > Everyone has an opinion, thanks for sharing! You're welcome. > > > Obviously they didn't quote sales tax initially... That's not that > > > uncommon... Rarely does a company quote sales tax when you ask them the [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > have ONLY dived without a DM...I feel sorry for you. I guess that > limits your diving to the KEYS? Maybe Bonaire? Not hardly. :-) > My last four dives in the KEYS were in fact with DM, granted 6 years > ago, so this was a bit unusal for me. > > The main fact is that Halls should have been able to predict the vis > and informed professionally. I asked twice. What more could I have > done. On one of my first trips, we had two days of great vis. The next day, every site we went to was horrid. > I wonder what would happen if I could'nt predict the level 4 > thunderstorm 100 miles ahead of my plane and route and flew right into > it? And I wonder what would happen if you or your loved one bounced > their head off the fuslage and cause injury???As a pilot, it is MY > responsibility for the safety of the plane and crew....This should be > no different from a dive boat. You're aware that there's an entire agency devoted to meterology that provides the infortmation on the conditions. No such agency monitors reef visibility. > The captain was obviously a hired hand. Once we docked, he was off the > boat and in his car in a New York Second...GONE. > > Everyone has an opinion, thanks for sharing! Dennis >>>Obviously they didn't quote sales tax initially... That's not that >>>uncommon... Rarely does a company quote sales tax when you ask them the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Most of you guy's are missing the point....It's certainly not about the > money...hell, I'll spend $300 bucks on a bottle of wine with dinner. Which explains much of your evaluation competence in diving. Matthias > Upon our arrival in the Marathon, I called Hall's on the afternoon of > December 26th, 2006. My inquiry was simple. What was the visibility? I > was informed 30-40 feet! Perhaps that morning, it had been. The wind was blowing pretty consistently down here for the entire holiday season. Visibility, particularly on the shallower reefs, can vary quickly. Once it goes bad, it tends to stay that way for a day or so after the winds subside. If you had 2-4 foot seas, the winds had not yet subsided. It can be blown out in shallow water and good out by the reef line, where Sombrero is, or the tide can carry the silt, etc. out to deeper water. Neither you, nor Halls can always predict what conditions will be. I will say, however, that Halls should be able to guess better than they apparently did, and that they should have had a backup site planned for the day's diving. > After securing the rental for my wife and daughter I was informed that the > cost would be $324.00 for the rentals and the two dives > for the three of us? Fair enough I said. I'm not one to grip over a few > bucks. Sounds high to me, but I don't rent gear in Florida and don't rent anything but tanks, usually included in the cost of the dive trip, anyplace else. If you got a precise quote over the phone, even if they actually promised less than $300, you should have insisted they honor their promise. On the other hand, it's not uncommon for dive shops to charge your dive to a credit card when you make the reservation. Apparently, they didn't do that. > While still in the shop, we were informed that the dive master on our boat > would not be in the water with us? Hmmm, I have dived > the world and never experienced this before, but I have 300 plus dives and > many from the key's years back. This is not uncommon in most of Florida and certainly not in the Keys. It's pretty common knowledge among those that frequent this group. You can usually arrange to be accompanied by a DM, but you normally have to arrange it in advance and pay for it. > We decided to try the descent once more, this time while holding the > anchor line. Upon reaching the bottom, Glen and I decided > to call the dive. The visibility was too dangerous! I was following my > daughter's fins and could not make out the rest of her body. > That's how treacherous it was! Anyone can call any dive anytime. I would have called it too, but because it simply was no fun. I don't imagine many people in this group would agree that the dive was treacherous just because visibility was low, but it was your dive, and your decision. > I was extremely happy having Glen in the water with me to buddy up with my > wife. Without Glen's assistance, I would surely > have had my hands full and most likely would have called the dive prior to > the second attempt to ascend. Thinks work out that way sometimes. I don't know your skill level or that of your daughter or wife, but it sounds like you were trying to watch over two others and found it difficult in low visibility conditions. Personally, I think you might have found it difficult, given the fact that your wife wound up three times (30 yards) as far from her buddy (whether it was you or Glen) as you expected to be able to see underwater. I sometimes dive with two buddies and am generally the more experienced in any group. I've been diving for a very long time. At any rate, what I do to control a situation like this is assign the other two divers, in this case, your wife and daughter, as buddies and I simply tag along. It's their job to pay attention to each other, your job to stay with them during the dive . . . or lead. Either way works pretty well. The point is, with a 3 person buddy team, somebody is pretty much diving solo. That should be the most experienced diver. > I was advised that they would NOT refund any amount, but would offer us > coupons for future use. That's unfortunate, but, frankly, is better than what many of the Keys operators would have offered. You have to remember that most of the operators down there, including Halls, make a living off the tourist trade. There are so many tourists diving in the Keys that they really don't much care who comes back and who doesn't. There are some exceptions, but tourist cattle boats are the rule rather than the exception. I understand your frustration, but that's just how it is. If you paid by credit card, call the card company and dispute the charge on the basis of not receiving the goods or services you paid for. See what happens. You never know, you might get away with it. > This was unacceptable given the facts and that I did not anticipate > visiting the key's in the near future. In fact, it has been 6 years > since our last visit. Most of our diving trips are to either Belize or > Roatan and these coupons were pretty much useless > for our future use. I would be surprised if this dive shop was still in > business by the time we returned to the Keys anyway? Halls has been in business for a very long time. Not only do they cater to tourists, they do extensive training, including training for dive professionals. They're not my favorite people in the world, but I'd bet your mistaken about their future. > Hall's Dive Center is without a doubt the most unprofessional dive > facility I have ever encountered. Beware....I would not > recommend anyone utilizing their services! > As a DAN member, I felt it was my duty to advise others of this > unfortunate experience. What does being a DAN member have to do with it? How about as a member of the diving fraternity? > Dive centers in the keys are a cut throat business, but as we all know, > safety should come first and in this instance is certainly was > not! On this, we disagree. Your safety is your responsibility. Halls didn't give you good service, or good information, or return your money, but they didn't do anything that jeopardized your safety either. The only safety issue in your report was, as you told it, you wife's fault, not theirs. Lee > > While still in the shop, we were informed that the dive master on our boat > > would not be in the water with us? Hmmm, I have dived > > the world and never experienced this before, but I have 300 plus dives and > > many from the key's years back. > This is not uncommon in most of Florida and certainly not in the Keys. It's > pretty common knowledge among those that frequent this group. You can > usually arrange to be accompanied by a DM, but you normally have to arrange > it in advance and pay for it. I find this part hilarious. I've been with plenty of tropical dive ops around the world where the DM(s) either stayed on the boat or pretty much did their own thing (photo or video) if they were in the water. This includes two dive boats in Grand Cayman, and several liveaboards in Pacific and Caribbean waters. DMs are only worth following if (a) they really do know how to find interesting critters better than I can, or (b) I'm lazy and let them bear the burden of navigation, towing a surface marker, etc. If they're a PITA and want to spend their diving controlling my dive, I ditch them. I recall one time I was diving off a local boat on a weekend trip and a couple showed up expecting some sort of Aggressor-like liveaboard with individual cabins and head and a DM holding their hands. They actually brought luggage with them. Boy were they pissed. > While still in the shop, we were informed that the dive master on our > boat would not be in the water with us? Hmmm, I have dived the world > and never experienced this before, but I have 300 plus dives and many > from the key's years back. I've got 300+ dives and have never been in the water with a dive master. Divemasters stay on boats to pick up your fins, brief you about the bottom and what to expect, and ensure that your coffee is delivered on time. This organization sounds like a great one. Perhaps I'll dive with them next time I'm down Florida way. > Upon our descent, I immediately lost my wife. She was having difficulty > descending and needed additional weight. The three of us, Glen, > daughter and I waited on the bottom for 60 seconds and then ascended to > the surface. 300 dives and you lost your buddy on descent? This is the dive shop's problem exactly how? > We decided to try the descent once more, this time while holding the > anchor line. Upon reaching the bottom, Glen and I decided to call the > dive. The visibility was too dangerous! I was following my daughter's > fins and could not make out the rest of her body. That's how > treacherous it was! That doesn't sound treacherous. Sounds like bad vis, but that sounds manageable. How exactly would you propose the dive shop prepare visibility for you in the future? > I was advised that they would NOT refund any amount, but would offer us > coupons for future use. This was unacceptable given the facts and that > I did not anticipate visiting the key's in the near future. Given that the decision to call the dive was yours, why is it the dive shop's responsibility to refund you anything. You did your dive. > Hall's Dive Center is without a doubt the most unprofessional dive > facility I have ever encountered. Beware....I would not recommend > anyone utilizing their services! They sound like a great outfit to me. Keeps their divemasters on the boat, and let you dive your dive? That's a pro dive outfit I want to associate with. > Dive centers in the keys are a cut throat business, but as we all know, > safety should come first and in this instance is certainly was not! The dive center's responsibility is to drop you in the water, and pick you up again. Anything that happens in the water is *entirely* your responsibility. > I've got 300+ dives and have never been in the water with a dive master. I've got ~600 dives, and have been with a DM on about 2/3 of them. But only because my wife got her DM cert after about 200 dives. SignatureArt Greenberg artg at eclipse dot net > I've got ~600 dives, and have been with a DM on about 2/3 of them. But > only > because my wife got her DM cert after about 200 dives. Does she make good coffee? Lee > > I've got ~600 dives, and have been with a DM on about 2/3 of them. But > > only [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Lee Dunno. Neither of us drinks coffee. SignatureArt Greenberg artg at eclipse dot net >> > I've got ~600 dives, and have been with a DM on about 2/3 of them. But >> > only [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Dunno. Neither of us drinks coffee. Nevermind. She can still be a South Florida DM. Not only do they not get in the water with divers, the boats don't normally offer coffee either. You're lucky to get water and/or a cooler with some ice for beverages you may bring with you. The better boats have animal cookies. Lee > >> > I've got ~600 dives, and have been with a DM on about 2/3 of them. But > >> > only [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > You're lucky to get water and/or a cooler with some ice for beverages you > may bring with you. The better boats have animal cookies. She likes diving too much to be a working DM, anywhere. Animal cookies? Damn! Sounds like we need to make a trip to South Florida. SignatureArt Greenberg artg at eclipse dot net > Nevermind. She can still be a South Florida DM. Not only do they not get > in the water with divers, the boats don't normally offer coffee either. > You're lucky to get water and/or a cooler with some ice for beverages you > may bring with you. The better boats have animal cookies. And Scuba-Do had CHOCOLATE. :-D > > Nevermind. She can still be a South Florida DM. Not only do they not get > > in the water with divers, the boats don't normally offer coffee either. > > You're lucky to get water and/or a cooler with some ice for beverages you > > may bring with you. The better boats have animal cookies. > > And Scuba-Do had CHOCOLATE. :-D *DARK* Chocolate! -hh >> > Nevermind. She can still be a South Florida DM. Not only do they not get >> > in the water with divers, the boats don't normally offer coffee either. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >*DARK* Chocolate! Very good dark chocolate! >>> And Scuba-Do had CHOCOLATE. :-D >> >>*DARK* Chocolate! >> > Very good dark chocolate! Is there such a thing as bad dark chocolate? >>>> And Scuba-Do had CHOCOLATE. :-D >>> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Is there such a thing as bad dark chocolate? I guess not. >>>> And Scuba-Do had CHOCOLATE. :-D >>> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Is there such a thing as bad dark chocolate? We used to think that Hershey's Special Dark was the ultimate. Now we eat some 73% stuff (at only $8 a pound). And have half a kilo of 98%, which is actually hard to eat, it's so rich. Also hard to cut, we use a cheese plane. Signaturedillon The pen may be mightier than the sword, but I've never seen a .sig beat a Sig. >> I've got 300+ dives and have never been in the water with a dive master. > > I've got ~600 dives, and have been with a DM on about 2/3 of them. But > only > because my wife got her DM cert after about 200 dives. That was good. :-) SignaturePopeye You can get much further with a kind word and a gun than you can with a kind word alone. -Capone www.finalprotectivefire.com > While still in the shop, we were informed that the dive master on our > boat would not be in the water with us? Hmmm, I have dived the world > and never experienced this before, but I have 300 plus dives and many > from the key's years back. With the Visibility as stated, I was not > concerned being in the water with just my wife and daughter. We were > the only divers going out at this point. I have dove off Va.Beach, Morehead City NC, Cozumel, Cayman Brac, Bonaire, Curacao, Florida Keys,a liveaboard in the Caribbean, Boynton Beach and numerous springs and caves in Fla. The ONLY place I have ever been where they put a DM in the water with you was Cozumel. The reason for that was all of our diving was drift diving and the operator didn't want the group getting scattered about and didn't want to burden each diver with a dive float. I have had few DMs get in the water initially, dive briefly and back on the boat after 10-15 minutes. I would rather have the DM on the boat when I get back to help me on the boat. The boat operators responsibility is to get you to and from the dive site. I think in the interest in good customer relations, Hall's should have refunded a portion of your money but they were under no obligatioin to do so. One of the boat captains in Morehead City NC I dive with regularly, took us out a few years ago. Conditions were marginal but we decided to go. We got a hour out of port and he stopped the boat and gave us a choice. Where we were going, it was 8-9ft seas and we were already in 4-5 foot seas. He said if the group wanted to go, he would take us there but there would be no refund if we decided not to dive. The second option was to dive a location closer into shore but viz and conditions would be poor. The third option was to return to port and he would refund our money. We returned to port. The next day, we tried again and had exactly the same results. We got our money back for both boat trips. I think this captain went far above and beyond and undoubtedly, he lost money that day. However, I have recommended him many times over and have dove with his operation many times since. >> While still in the shop, we were informed that the dive master on our >> boat would not be in the water with us? Hmmm, I have dived the world [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > money that day. However, I have recommended him many times over and > have dove with his operation many times since. Oh hell, lets face it..... It's Bush's fault. Signature“TAANSTAFL” ____________________________________________________________________________ "A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for them; The simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences." - Proverbs 22:3 ____________________________________________________________________________ >>> While still in the shop, we were informed that the dive master on our >>> boat would not be in the water with us? Hmmm, I have dived the world [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > >It's Bush's fault. no we are blaming everything on Rummy now <snip> > Oh hell, lets face it..... > > It's Bush's fault. Ah, I see you finally talk sense... >:-) ducking SignatureMichael Wolf ----- Cthulhu For President. Why settle for the lesser evil? remove stopspam to reply > > While still in the shop, we were informed that the dive master on our > > boat would not be in the water with us? Hmmm, I have dived the world [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Beach and numerous springs and caves in Fla. The ONLY place I have ever > been where they put a DM in the water with you was Cozumel. As an aside, on Cayman Brac, all the dive ops are members of the local watersport operator's association, whose rules of conduct include calling for one DM topside at all times and another DM in the water. However, this doesn't mean that the DM's going to escort the group: the general SOP is that the DM is last in and first out, and anyone who wants to "with" the DM has to choose to wait around for them, and usually then have another 500psi at the end of the dive to noodle around under the boat. For everyone who chooses to not wait for the DM, they're off in self-reliant buddy teams on their own. In any event, the general concensus here is that DM's are sometimes a nice-to-have, but by no means are they a necessity for a *certified* diver to go diving. For the OP who claims to have been diving for 30 years, he should recognize this as "old school" as opposed to modern opportunistic "5 Star" Capitalism. Next, insofar as the very low visibility, I don't think you'll get any disagreement that crappy viz doesn't make for much fun. However, if it was beyond the comfort level of some of the divers onboard, then the dive should have then been thumbed. If not before entry, then 30 seconds (10ft down) in, when comfort levels have been exceeded. Note that calling the dive is always the perrogative -- and responsibility -- of each individual *certified* diver, regardless of their skill level, and regardless of if they have a DM (or buddy) holding their hand or not. And similarly, "weather happens". Weather prediction still isn't perfect and sometimes the call comes too late. For example, just last month, Lee drove roughly 2 hours (half pre-dawn) to join Curtis and me on a dive out of Key Largo ... only to have the dive op review the weather report with us while on the dock and recommend that we cancel the dive due to high seas. Yes, we all know that there are those "hell bent for leather" types who insist on having fun even if it kills them - - and we watched them go past on one of the other dive op boats - - but we did agree to cancel that dive. And then went out and had a nice 2nd breakfast :-) > I think in the interest in good customer relations, Hall's should have > refunded a portion of your money but they were under no obligatioin to > do so. Agreed. Afterall, they burned fuel and had chargable hours of labor on the staff...its not like the fuel company's going to give them a refund. Afterall, if organizations are always going to give 100% refunds for unhappy customers, I'm going to go out and buy $50K in Lottery tickets :-) Sorry to hear that the OP didn't have a good dive, but IMO he had unrealistic expectations. -hh > And similarly, "weather happens". Weather prediction still isn't perfect > and sometimes the call comes too late. Yes, but there is some merit to the criticism this time. While I don't usually pay much attention to the wind when I'm not planning on boating or diving, the winds were pretty high for a week before and a week after the date of the events described. I'm inclined to give Halls the benefit of the doubt, but I suspect that they could have, and should have done better. > For example, just last month, Lee drove roughly 2 hours (half pre-dawn) > to join Curtis and me on a dive out of Key Largo ... [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > agree to cancel that dive. And then went out and had a > nice 2nd breakfast :-) Yep. More to the point, the weather was, as I recall, better the day before. We were twice blessed in that we had a captain that didn't try to BS us at all and in that we could see the wind and knew what it would mean to our comfort and visibility. > Agreed. Afterall, they burned fuel and had chargable hours of labor on > the staff...its not like the fuel company's going to give > them a refund. Afterall, if organizations are always going to give 100% > refunds for unhappy customers, I'm going to go out and > buy $50K in Lottery tickets :-) This does bring up an interesting point. If all the operator is supposed to do is know where good sites are and take us to and from them, then one could make a case (here, not in court) that the operator did not do what he was paid to do. Perhaps some compensation was appropriate. In fact, when asked, Halls was willing to provide a raincheck for use another time. It was kind of a no win situation for the customer. While Halls tried to do something to keep a customer, it was of no value ot the customer because he wasn't coming back anyway. I suspect Halls' interest faded right about then. Lee > While still in the shop, we were informed that the dive master on our > boat would not be in the water with us? Hmmm, I have dived the world > and never experienced this before, but I have 300 plus dives and many > from the key's years back. As many have pointed out, DMs in the water aren't all that common. I'd point out that the exception is in tourist/resort areas that tend to have large numbers of divers that need to be kept out of trouble. > In article <1168282680.449254.107...@51g2000cwl.googlegroups.com>, > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > point out that the exception is in tourist/resort areas that tend to > have large numbers of divers that need to be kept out of trouble. It's my experience that your "exception" is closer to the rule. I'd put it the other way: with the exception of those areas that attract more local divers, the rule is that dive boats tend to send DMs along with the divers. > > In article <1168282680.449254.107...@51g2000cwl.googlegroups.com>, > > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > more local divers, the rule is that dive boats tend to send DMs along > with the divers. I forgot how good you are at restating something, but in a way that makes it sound totally opposite :-) > The WORST diving experience in my 30 years in diving: > > I want to share our recent diving experience with HALL'S DIVING > CENTER located in Marathon, Florida. I agree if the visibility was that poor they should have known about it, since they are experienced in this area and should not have said there is good visibility if they did not know or were not sure. It's also a good idea to do a shallow checkout dive from shore to get the buoyancy correct so you're wife is not faced with inadequate weight on a boat dive. If she was unable to get down with a full tank her weighting must have been way off. Adam |
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