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Scuba Forum / General / November 2006

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10 Pints of Air = Warm, Can See Clearly Now, Thermo what?

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ben bradlee - 09 Nov 2006 13:18 GMT
Same setup as last dive just dropped 10# of lead.  Much colder after just an
hour in 43 degree water.  Ten pounds of lead equals, approximately, 10 pints
of air.  That ten pints of air makes a big difference in how warm you stay.
The weight goes back on.

Stood on the sand in 20 feet of water leaving my head and computer at about
15 feet.  Looked up at the flag, which was clearly visible.  Noticed that
the trees and surrounding hills were visible but distorted. They appeared to
surround me, elevated above the water, but close.  It must be from the way
the light is distorted from the surface thru 15 feet of water and then into
the mask.  Never seen anything like it.

Two weeks ago there was a thermocline at about 40 feet.  The temp above was
46 degrees while below it was 41 degrees.  Yesterday the water was just a
constant 43 degrees.  Visibility is excellent.  Dived 87 minutes in 43
degree water to a max depth of 41 feet.
Dave C - 09 Nov 2006 17:01 GMT
> Same setup as last dive just dropped 10# of lead.  Much colder after just an
> hour in 43 degree water.  Ten pounds of lead equals, approximately, 10 pints
> of air.  That ten pints of air makes a big difference in how warm you stay.
> The weight goes back on.

Hi Ben.

I'm glad to hear I'm not the only one that finds extra air to be
warmer.

It will be interesting to hear your opinion comparing the extra
weighting for the _same_ temp (43 degrees), since you were in 46 degree
water before. I find 3 degrees can affect my warmth significantly,
especially when getting into the 40's or less.

I certainly agree that the reduced air in the suit is the biggest
factor this time.

Do you think your activity level was about the same as when you
reported on the 46 degree day?

By any chance, did you determine your minimum weighting required with
an empty tank? That would be interesting to know.

Think you were close to the minimum this last dive?

Did you use 45 lbs of lead?

> Stood on the sand in 20 feet of water leaving my head and computer at about
> 15 feet.  Looked up at the flag, which was clearly visible.  Noticed that
> the trees and surrounding hills were visible but distorted. They appeared to
> surround me, elevated above the water, but close.  It must be from the way
> the light is distorted from the surface thru 15 feet of water and then into
> the mask.  Never seen anything like it.

Very nice.

> Two weeks ago there was a thermocline at about 40 feet.  The temp above was
> 46 degrees while below it was 41 degrees.  Yesterday the water was just a
> constant 43 degrees.  Visibility is excellent.  Dived 87 minutes in 43
> degree water to a max depth of 41 feet.

Just for a point of reference (and to shoot the breeze, of course), I
dove Saturday in 47 degree saltwater and used 44 lbs of lead with my
usual steel 120 and aluminum 30 pony.

Fleece insulation was full coverage of 100 weight polypropylene, plus
300 weight Polartec, plus 4 extra layers of 100 weight fleece on the
chest.

Also adding to buoyancy were the drygloves, an ice cap underhood and a
7mm outer hood and 2 pairs of socks.

I was probably 5 lbs above minimum needed to be neutral with my 120
empty at the end of the dive.

Max depth was 37 fsw for 115 minutes with no cold areas, no cramps.
This was my usual, low-activity photo dive, although I caught a couple
of bugs for fun, they came along quietly, without much of a fight.

I took a 90-minute surface interval, then dove for 95 minutes in the
same conditions. This time, I had a little chill in my legs and around
the 40-minute mark had some brief cramping in the backs of my thighs
and toes. Typical and not too much trouble.

When the water temps start getting down into the low 40's, I'll
probably have to add some insulation to avoid feeling an overall chill
after a long first dive.

That might be the case tomorrow, as I'm going to dive in a local lake
which is likely to be around 40 degrees at 60 feet.

Keep the reports coming!

Dave C
ben bradlee - 10 Nov 2006 00:05 GMT
> It will be interesting to hear your opinion comparing the extra
> weighting for the _same_ temp (43 degrees), since you were in 46 degree
> water before. I find 3 degrees can affect my warmth significantly,
> especially when getting into the 40's or less.

I wanted to dive today just to see the difference but that didn't happen.
We're supposed to get snow and slush tomorrow.  I suspect the temperature
will be lower before I dive so the comparison will probably be invalid.  I'm
betting too that the air will make a big difference.

> Do you think your activity level was about the same as when you
> reported on the 46 degree day?

Pretty much the same.  Swam the entire time but did not have the gun.
Picked up glass bottles and plastic off the bottom and saw a couple trout
and some pan fish.  Then stood up on the bottom to stare at the flag.  Just
too exciting activity for many.

> By any chance, did you determine your minimum weighting required with
> an empty tank? That would be interesting to know.
>
> Think you were close to the minimum this last dive?
>
> Did you use 45 lbs of lead?

I used two 6's and two 8's.  That's 28#.  I used a steel HP 100 so that is
about 14 negative, if memory serves, and a SS plate that is about 5
negative.  (These are all rough numbers from memory without guarantee of any
kind including accuracy.)  Throw in a couple pounds for the 1st stage and
that's about 50#.  I used 1,726# of air but the tank wasn't full when I
started and had something over 1,100# when done.  Eleven hundred pounds of
air is about 3 pounds so if I'd been three pounds lighter would I have
stayed down?  Probably, but I don't know for sure.  So, I was close to or at
the minimum.

> Just for a point of reference (and to shoot the breeze, of course), I
> dove Saturday in 47 degree saltwater and used 44 lbs of lead with my
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> 300 weight Polartec, plus 4 extra layers of 100 weight fleece on the
> chest.

I need to see the material to understand.

> Also adding to buoyancy were the drygloves, an ice cap underhood and a
> 7mm outer hood and 2 pairs of socks.
>
> I was probably 5 lbs above minimum needed to be neutral with my 120
> empty at the end of the dive.

If your tank is an HP it's probably more negative than mine.  Your weights
are 16# heavier.  If your using a BC as opposed to a plate we'll subtract 5#
for that.  Say 2 pounds for the tank, 16 for lead, that's 13 to 18 pounds
more than I was using yesterday.  The hood, cap, gloves, etc. appear to be
identical.

> Max depth was 37 fsw for 115 minutes with no cold areas, no cramps.
> This was my usual, low-activity photo dive, although I caught a couple
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> the 40-minute mark had some brief cramping in the backs of my thighs
> and toes. Typical and not too much trouble.

Very respectable times and results.  You're talking 3 1/2 hours in cold
water.  On low activity dives I can see not cramping; but after that much
time in the cold I'm sure I'd be cramping.

> When the water temps start getting down into the low 40's, I'll
> probably have to add some insulation to avoid feeling an overall chill
> after a long first dive.
>
> That might be the case tomorrow, as I'm going to dive in a local lake
> which is likely to be around 40 degrees at 60 feet.

Post a report.
Dave C - 11 Nov 2006 02:19 GMT
> > It will be interesting to hear your opinion comparing the extra
> > weighting for the _same_ temp (43 degrees), since you were in 46 degree
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> will be lower before I dive so the comparison will probably be invalid.  I'm
> betting too that the air will make a big difference.

Tough to do good "science" when nature won't cooperate!  8^)

> > Do you think your activity level was about the same as when you
> > reported on the 46 degree day?
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> and some pan fish.  Then stood up on the bottom to stare at the flag.  Just
> too exciting activity for many.

8^)

I find almost every dive interesting, even if it's only because of some
unusual situation like you experienced. Today, looking up from 50' and
seeing whitecaps from below was different. Looked like a river rapids
up there. Vis was 30' horizontally at that depth, but the surface was
easily seen in the bright sun.

By the way, I've been describing my typical dive activity level as
"low", but it may be similar to your recent dives. I'm finning almost
the whole time, too, but slowly, like one kick every 2 seconds.

Also, my activity level is raised a little by my dragging a "tuna ball"
around, especially when heading up-wind on such a windy day as today. I
know I use more air as a result.

> > By any chance, did you determine your minimum weighting required with
> > an empty tank? That would be interesting to know.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> kind including accuracy.)  Throw in a couple pounds for the 1st stage and
> that's about 50#.

I figure my weighting a bit differently by using the greatest positive
buoyancy of the equipment (when the tank is empty) because my goal is
to always be able to get neutral.

I've got some HP steel 100's by Pressed Steel, which I assume is what
you have. Their buoyancy _when empty_ is listed as -1.0 lb, so if I was
switching from my HP steel 120's, which are listed as neutral when
empty, to the 100, I might add a pound of lead to keep my buoyancy
about the same (if I cared to tweak to that degree, which I don't).

As far as your SS plate being 5 lbs negative, I'd count that certainly,
too.

Regarding first stages, it's probably close enough to use the weight of
the first stage in the calculation, since the weight of the other
fittings will help with the fudge factor of the displacement of the
gear.

Unless you've actually got a HP 100 that is 14 lbs negative when empty,
I would have described your weighting as 28 lbs of lead, 5 lbs of back
plate, 2 lbs for the regulator and I would have omitted the weight of
air, since it will be gone possibly at some point. Again, my goal is to
still be neutral with an empty tank, not including the extra wieight I
want for warmth.

For your recent dive, I'd say your total weight that affects buoyancy
is 35 lbs. Or I'd say you wore 30 lbs with that gear configuration of
steel backplate.

 I used 1,726# of air but the tank wasn't full when I
> started and had something over 1,100# when done.  Eleven hundred pounds of
> air is about 3 pounds so if I'd been three pounds lighter would I have
> stayed down?  Probably, but I don't know for sure.  So, I was close to or at
> the minimum.

I don't think chasing the changing weight of air is going to help
achieve the result of fine-tuned buoyancy, since the empty tank's
increased positive buoyancy is the most important consideration.

> > Just for a point of reference (and to shoot the breeze, of course), I
> > dove Saturday in 47 degree saltwater and used 44 lbs of lead with my
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> I need to see the material to understand.

Here's the link to Cabela's for the first layer I use, which I estimate
to be 100 weight polypropylene fleece:

http://makeashorterlink.com/?I1112352E

Here's a link to their Polartec product that I use as the 2nd layer,
which is 300 weight:

http://makeashorterlink.com/?R2315252E

I use the same type garments for the legs, too.

The fleece pads on my chest are simply 100 weight fleece blanket
material from WalMart that I've cut or folded to create 4 layers to
cover about 12x18" of my chest.

I have some nice Polartec 300 material that I got from a yard sale last
year that I will eventually use for custom pads or garments, when I get
the time to sew something up. I got lucky and picked up about 3 yards
by 60 inches wide for $5! Gotta love yard sales!

> > Also adding to buoyancy were the drygloves, an ice cap underhood and a
> > 7mm outer hood and 2 pairs of socks.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> more than I was using yesterday.  The hood, cap, gloves, etc. appear to be
> identical.

Actually, the greater displacement made my HP 120 neutral when empty,
so yours is more negative by a pound, when empty.

The point we should be heading toward is that the fine-tuning needs to
be done in-water with the tank empty, or, if full, made with some
calculation of the added weight of it's air, to make sure to have
enough weight to be neutral with an empty tank.

> > Max depth was 37 fsw for 115 minutes with no cold areas, no cramps.
> > This was my usual, low-activity photo dive, although I caught a couple
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> water.  On low activity dives I can see not cramping; but after that much
> time in the cold I'm sure I'd be cramping.

I think half my cramping problem is simply being out of shape, not
walking enough, etc. The steady, slow finning I do, even with gentle,
flexible Mares Quattros, still gives me occasional cramps late in the
dive.

> > When the water temps start getting down into the low 40's, I'll
> > probably have to add some insulation to avoid feeling an overall chill
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Post a report.

Well, just to bring something to the discussion, I did a little
experimenting at the end of today's 92-minute dive in 48 degree fresh
water.

First let me just add a little color to this story by saying I had
forgotten how this lake is always windy as a bastard when a high is
coming from the northwest, and it was ripping a steady 25 miles per
hour, I'd guess, and the 50 degree air temp felt absolutely wintry in
that wind! Chilled me more than the water did! Needless to say, I
didn't do my usual "dubbing around" while gearing up! It felt very nice
to finally get into the suit and into the water!

I had only reduced my saltwater weighting by 3 pounds, instead of the
usual 4, because I thought there would be colder water especially below
the thermocline. The recent winds have apparently "turned the water
over" and there was no thermocline, even down to 60'. It was 48 degrees
throughout.

My total lead weight was 41 lbs.

Now, about the experimenting.

At the end of the dive, with about 200 psi left in the 120, I took my
BCD off and checked the buoyancy of everything: BCD, HP 120, al 30 and
Highland steel pony bracket. It was about 5 lbs negative as determined
by tying a 1-gallon plastic milk jug to it with just enough air inside
the jug to get the whole rig neutral. A little more than half a gallon
of air, so about 5 lbs of buoyancy.

I detached the 120 and its regulator and the empty tank alone was
essentially neutral, barely bobbing on the surface.

The BCD was essentially neutral, so that leaves the full 30 cubic foot
aluminum pony, bracket and two first stages, etc, to account for the 5
lbs of negative buoyancy. No surprise there.

The 41 lbs of lead I still had on me was just about perfect for being
neutral with the suit vented as much as possible at the surface.

Being inquisite, I later checked the volume of the insulation I wore.
That insulation was the same as last week: 100 weight polypropylene
fleech shirt and pants, 300 weight Polartec jacket and pants, 4 layers
of fleece chest pads, 2 pairs of socks. The volume of that insulation
in a 5-gallon bucket, when pressed down moderately to firmly was just
above the 4-gallon point. Again, the rough estimate method probably has
another confirming data point perhaps, since the buoyancy of the hoods
and gloves wasn't taken into account yet, and those are easy enough to
measure.

This tells me it's a useful method to find a starting point to find the
right weighting with different undergarments. Sounds like you're a
believer, too.

If we get back to how much extra weight and therefore air we have, I
say I have my extra 5 lbs of lead and am warmer as a result.

Again, it will be very interesting to hear what you find is your actual
minimum of weight required to be just at the neutral point with an
empty tank.

How about checking that out?

Just for the sake of discussion, at the beginning of the dive, the
additional weight of the tank's air means even more air in the suit is
required to achieve neutral. Unless, of course, one wants to complicate
things by adding some air to the BCD, which I don't usually like to do.

Sometimes, it might be desirable to have some of the needed air in the
BCD instead of the drysuit, such as if one was overheating and wanted
to lose some loft of insulation. Another case might be if the air
shifting in the suit became a problem. My suit fits snugly around my
insulation, so that isn't a problem at my current level of excess air.
In the summer, when I have very little insulation, if I use too much
weight, the air can really shift rapidly within the suit.

Any thoughts?

--
Dave C

PURE TALC - Source, supplier of unscented, oil-free, USP grade PURE
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ben bradlee - 11 Nov 2006 14:27 GMT
> I've got some HP steel 100's by Pressed Steel, which I assume is what
> you have. Their buoyancy _when empty_ is listed as -1.0 lb, ...

My memory is faultering.  I looked at the PST HP tank guide and sure enough
it's -1.3 Lbs.  I remembered some quite large number totally in error.  Full
buoyancy is only -8.8#, not anywhere near the 14 I was using.  This changes
my thoughts on the tank entirely.

> For your recent dive, I'd say your total weight that affects buoyancy
> is 35 lbs. Or I'd say you wore 30 lbs with that gear configuration of
> steel backplate.

I agree.

> Here's the link to Cabela's for the first layer I use, which I estimate
> to be 100 weight polypropylene fleece:
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> http://makeashorterlink.com/?R2315252E

That's as good as it gets until I can get my fingers on it to get a feel.

> I use the same type garments for the legs, too.
>
> The fleece pads on my chest are simply 100 weight fleece blanket
> material from WalMart that I've cut or folded to create 4 layers to
> cover about 12x18" of my chest.

Do you actually feel the cold on your chest?  The reason I ask is because I
can't ever remember my chest feeling cold.

> I think half my cramping problem is simply being out of shape, not
> walking enough, etc. The steady, slow finning I do, even with gentle,
> flexible Mares Quattros, still gives me occasional cramps late in the
> dive.

Let's hear a cheer for all the exercise that never gets done.  Boo-ya!

> Well, just to bring something to the discussion, I did a little
> experimenting at the end of today's 92-minute dive in 48 degree fresh
> water.

Still a balmy 48.

> First let me just add a little color to this story by saying I had
> forgotten how this lake is always windy as a bastard when a high is
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> didn't do my usual "dubbing around" while gearing up! It felt very nice
> to finally get into the suit and into the water!

It's easier to appreciate the wind above when towing something sitting on
the surface.  Quite an annoyance sometimes.

> I had only reduced my saltwater weighting by 3 pounds, instead of the
> usual 4, because I thought there would be colder water especially below
> the thermocline. The recent winds have apparently "turned the water
> over" and there was no thermocline, even down to 60'. It was 48 degrees
> throughout.

That's what I found too.  The lake I was in is only a bit over 60 feet deep.
The area where I was diving is muck when you get over 40 feet.  At about 55
feet springs release water into the lake and when you sit there you can't
see much because of the particulate shooting up with the water.  I would
have been surprised though, if there had been a thermocline but there was
when the temperature was 48.

> My total lead weight was 41 lbs.
>
[quoted text clipped - 39 lines]
>
> How about checking that out?

I won't go to the lengths you did to check it out.  Too much work.  Knowing
the true buoyancy of the tank lets me compare what I did to what I'm doing.
I used no weight with double Faber 80's.  Changing to the PST I used 14
instead of zero when I figured my weighting requirement.  If I'd just thrown
on the 20#, approximately, that the doubles were negative it would have been
fine.  Then when the added insulation in the bucket indicated 2 gallons and
the 16# were added, we would have arrived at 36#.  Same ballpark, different
equipment.  Adding then 5 more for warmth we'll get to 40# and probably be
set.

> Just for the sake of discussion, at the beginning of the dive, the
> additional weight of the tank's air means even more air in the suit is
> required to achieve neutral. Unless, of course, one wants to complicate
> things by adding some air to the BCD, which I don't usually like to do.

I almost never add air to the bladder.  It complicates the dive
unnecessarily.

> Sometimes, it might be desirable to have some of the needed air in the
> BCD instead of the drysuit, such as if one was overheating and wanted
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> In the summer, when I have very little insulation, if I use too much
> weight, the air can really shift rapidly within the suit.

Depending on the type of insulation and the amount of weight it's possible
to have some large bubbles in a drysuit.  Years ago I recall my shoulders
bulging out during a dive.  When the water was warm I dove in jeans and
sweatshirt but used the same weight as with underwear.  I was G-O diving.
The ScubaPro underwear is a good portion of an inch thick.  It's getting old
but in most cases the loft of the material increases whenever air is added
to the suit.  That eliminates any free bubbles and air shifting in the suit.
The lighter and much thinner Polartec underwear holds some air but not near
the amount that the ScubaPro holds.  Individually, comparing the two
materials, diving with Polartec will reduce the weight requirement.  At this
point in their lives (the Polartec is years newer) they are about equal in
warmth.

Thanks for posting Dave, I appreciate the information and help.
Dave C - 11 Nov 2006 16:14 GMT
> > I've got some HP steel 100's by Pressed Steel, which I assume is what
> > you have. Their buoyancy _when empty_ is listed as -1.0 lb, ...
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> I agree.

Now I can see that you've probably come close to the minimum weighting
for those two full undergarments, average size assumed.

That's not a lot of weight. I'll have up to 54 lbs of lead this winter
when I switch to the Weezle Extreme Plus mixed with fleece. Makes for a
_long_ walk to the water at a time of year when I'm most out of shape!
Grunt, wheeze...

8^)

snip

> > The fleece pads on my chest are simply 100 weight fleece blanket
> > material from WalMart that I've cut or folded to create 4 layers to
> > cover about 12x18" of my chest.
>
> Do you actually feel the cold on your chest?  The reason I ask is because I
> can't ever remember my chest feeling cold.

Yes, especially below 50 degrees, but with the fleece chest pads, I
don't feel the cold at all on my chest (or abdomen), even down to temps
in the mid-thirties. I really think it helps me retain core heat. I'm
even thinking of making some fleece kidney pads for winter diving for
the same reason.

Your thick Scubapro undergarment is probably retaining more loft than
my easily compressed Polartec fleece undergarments.

snip

> > If we get back to how much extra weight and therefore air we have, I
> > say I have my extra 5 lbs of lead and am warmer as a result.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> I won't go to the lengths you did to check it out.  Too much work.

I don't blame you, but the typical in-water fine-tuning of weighting is
much simpler than the experimenting I did.

It's a simple matter of having some small amounts of lead that can be
easily removed when the tank is close to empty. One might only want to
do it once or twice to really get a sense of their "ideal" minimal
weighting. Again, you and I have gravitated toward "overweighting" for
more warmth, rather the "ideal", which is often described as "adding
just enough air to get rid of squeeze."

I can understand you not wanting to bother since you're getting a good
feel for what weighting is working for you. That's probably good
enough.

What's fun is to listen to other drysuit divers tout how little lead
they need, but then watch them get cold long before you do!   8^)

> Knowing the true buoyancy of the tank lets me compare what I did to what I'm doing.
> I used no weight with double Faber 80's.  Changing to the PST I used 14
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> equipment.  Adding then 5 more for warmth we'll get to 40# and probably be
> set.

Makes sense.

snip

> Depending on the type of insulation and the amount of weight it's possible
> to have some large bubbles in a drysuit.  Years ago I recall my shoulders
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> point in their lives (the Polartec is years newer) they are about equal in
> warmth.

Since you've been combining the two, any idea how effective they will
be for real low temps, like mid-thirties? Please post if you do any
more customizing of your insulation. That will be interesting.

> Thanks for posting Dave, I appreciate the information and help.

It's been a pleasure, Ben!

Good diving!

Dave C
 
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