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Scuba Forum / General / December 2003Diving without PADI license
Newbie question here.. My fiancee and I will be going to Egypt for our honeymoon next year. We would love to spend a day scuba diving whilst we are there, but do not have the time to do a PADI (or equivalent) course. Can we go out diving with an organised group, or is there no way to go diving without the license? Thanks for your thoughts. > My fiancee and I will be going to Egypt for our honeymoon next year. > We would love to spend a day scuba diving whilst we are there, but do > not have the time to do a PADI (or equivalent) course. When next year? Make time to get your certification. It really isn't that difficult. Kimber  SignatureI'm movin' on At last I can see life has been patiently waiting for me And I know there's no guarantees, but I'm not alone > > My fiancee and I will be going to Egypt for our honeymoon next year. > > We would love to spend a day scuba diving whilst we are there, but do > > not have the time to do a PADI (or equivalent) course. > > When next year? Make time to get your certification. It really isn't that > difficult. especially a PADI cert. Signaturejim frei http://stormwatergroup.com feel free to dive unqualified all you want-just not with me or any of my mates!! i really wanna fly the space shuttle but haven't got the time to learn-anyone know where i can hire one fully fuelled???? jeez-some people! > > > My fiancee and I will be going to Egypt for our honeymoon next year. > > > We would love to spend a day scuba diving whilst we are there, but do [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > especially a PADI cert. At various times over 32 years of diving I've done NASDS, PADI, YMCA and TDI. I can't say that they varied much except for the skill and enthusiasm of the instructor. The best instructor that I ever had was PADI affiliated, a Coast Guard Commander who was/is a hoot. Buck timpharrison@hotmail.com (Tim) pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: :Can we go out diving with an organised group, or is there no way to go :diving without the license? Take a resort course. Dan Bracuk If at first you don't succeed, you run the risk of failure. The Best of rec.scuba http://www.pathcom.com/~bracuk/RecScuba/ > Newbie question here.. > My fiancee and I will be going to Egypt for our honeymoon next year. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > diving without the license? > Thanks for your thoughts. There are some fundamental diving rules that make the difference between an enjoyable experience and a deadly one. The rules are not complex, but they tend to be absolute. A few days spent in a classroom, a few hours in a pool and a few ejoyable hours putting your new knowledge to work is, in my opinion, a small price to pay in order to know you and your new wife are safe. In addition to learning how to dive safely, you get a chance to gain at least a small amount of experience with the necessary equipment. In most areas where scuba diving is available, there are also what is known as a resort course. At best, it includes a brief lesson on the rules that apply to the specific dive, and a closely supervised, relatively shallow dive or two. At worst, it's a "here's your equipment, follow me" experience. While a good resort course can be great for somebody that just wants the one time experience, a bad one risks the lives of participants. The answer to your question comes down to this, would you rather take the time and learn how to dive safely or trust your life and that of your bride, to somebody you've never met before, working for an operator you know little about, in a country that may or may not have significant occupational controls. Note that I am making no judgement about conditions in Egypt. I've not been there and I know nothing of those that offer resort courses in that country. Then again, that's kind of my point. Knowing nothing about the quality of what they offer, suggests to me that I'd rather learn how to control my own risks than trust them to do it for me. Lee I smell a troll........ > Newbie question here.. > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Thanks for your thoughts. > Newbie question here.. > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Thanks for your thoughts. It's a certification, not a license. It is quite legal to dive without a certification but there are few, if any, operators anywhere in the world that will let you. Basic training does not take long, but there are a few essential skills to learn. Take the time to get certified now if you want to dive in Egypt. > > Newbie question here.. > > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Basic training does not take long, but there are a few essential skills > to learn. Take the time to get certified now if you want to dive in Egypt. One thing you can do to save a little time is to do all of the coursework at home before you leave and do the final certification dives when you get to Egypt. Many dive operators that have certified instructors on staff are happy to do this for you, and you don't have to waste time while on vacation doing coursework. Also, depending upon where you live, you would avoid the nasty quarry dives that would involve cutting a hole in the ice first. If you want to go this route, you try and plan ahead and make sure that they can handle this for you. There are different certification agencies out there (of which PADI is probably the most common), and you want to make sure that the shop in Egypt is with the same program as the shop locally where you do the coursework. When I took the advanced course, my instructor was an Israeli. He would tell us about diving in the Red Sea - when he would get too close to the border with Egypt, the Egyptians soldiers above would drop small stones in the water and try and hit the divers. Could be worse - they might have been dropping grenades instead :-). -Eric > when he would get too close to the > border with Egypt, the Egyptians soldiers above would drop small stones in > the water and try and hit the divers. Could be worse - they might have been > dropping grenades instead :-). > > -Eric I think their fishing laws would come down hard on the soldiers for illegal fishing methods, if they were isreali divers and they managed not to kill any fish while doing so I think they'd get a commendation. rhys > I think their fishing laws would come down hard on the soldiers for illegal > fishing methods, if they were isreali divers and they managed not to kill > any fish while doing so I think they'd get a commendation. Not to change the subject, but this site makes a koha out to be some sort of life insurance: http://www.awunz.org.nz/koha.htm I knew Kimber should have opted for the koha. $2,000 NZD is almost $50 U.S. right? > > I think their fishing laws would come down hard on the soldiers for > illegal [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > I knew Kimber should have opted for the koha. $2,000 NZD is almost $50 U.S. > right? Actually, Thats yen... 2000NZD is about 1200USD I had look at the site, as far a a quick browse shows without looking at the terms and condition, the place as a union includes the benefits to paid union members of discounts on travel, legal fees, dental fees etc... and the unions welfare fund gives a koha if you die. rhys >Newbie question here.. > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >Thanks for your thoughts. There's no law against it (in the US), but a dive shop would be irresponsible and open to civil liability if they were to allow you to do so. Of course, it would be your family going after the shop since both of you would be dead. It's bad enough that PADI already offers 1-day classes to allow people to dive who lack the desire to actually learn to dive. If you don't have the desire to take the training, then you don't have the desire to dive safely. If you have the desire to dive safely, then you will MAKE the time for the training. --- Rich http://richlockyer.tripod.com/ Rich Lockyer <rlockyer@linkline.DONTSPAMME.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: :It's bad enough that PADI already offers 1-day classes to allow people :to dive who lack the desire to actually learn to dive. I think it is tremendous that PADI has the resort course so that those who do not have the time available to get certified and stay proficient can still go for a dive. Dan Bracuk If at first you don't succeed, you run the risk of failure. The Best of rec.scuba http://www.pathcom.com/~bracuk/RecScuba/ > Rich Lockyer <rlockyer@linkline.DONTSPAMME.com> pounded away at his > keyboard resulting in: [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > who do not have the time available to get certified and stay > proficient can still go for a dive. The training course that is the truely good idea is the Referral. When a trip is being planned months in advance instead of days, the schedule of a few nights' worth of class and pool training sessions at your local diveshop is generally easily accomodated, even within the busiest of schedules. FWIW, some shops often run two classes simultaneously, which makes two different nights available for each class, thereby helping out those with busy and irregular schedules. And if that's not flexible enough, there's also private lessons. Of all the classes, the Resort Course is the one that has the greatest variation in quality (mostly bad), as well as being the poorest value for a customer that chooses to go on diving (both in terms of the total cost of dive training, as well as the cost of doing it while you're paying time & money to be at some nice resort someplace). The Resort Course is really nothing more than a tool to pull in Impulse Sales. It ranks the same as those sleazy timeshares that claim that you only have to listen to their pitch for an hour to get some benefit. -hh > The Resort Course is really nothing more than a tool to pull in Impulse > Sales. It ranks the same as those sleazy timeshares that claim that you > only have to listen to their pitch for an hour to get some benefit. Hmmm. I just sat through a 90-minute timeshare sales pitch last month and for my troubles got a heavily discounted room rate, free dinner with wine, room service breakfast, and bottle of champagne at the Park Hyatt Highlands Inn in Carmel. Didn't seem too sleazy to me. And I didn't buy a timeshare. > > The Resort Course is really nothing more than a tool to pull in Impulse > > Sales. It ranks the same as those sleazy timeshares that claim that you [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > room service breakfast, and bottle of champagne at the Park Hyatt Highlands > Inn in Carmel. Didn't seem too sleazy to me. And I didn't buy a timeshare. All things are relative. There may be some who wonder if there is anything "too sleazy" for an attorney. Not me, of course, but some . . . Lee > > > The Resort Course is really nothing more than a tool to pull in Impulse > > > Sales. It ranks the same as those sleazy timeshares that claim that you [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > if there is anything "too sleazy" for an attorney. > Not me, of course, but some . . . and thus you win "The Laugh of the Day Award" !! > Lee >> > The Resort Course is really nothing more than a tool to pull in Impulse >> > Sales. It ranks the same as those sleazy timeshares that claim that you [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >All things are relative. There may be some who wonder if there is anything >"too sleazy" for an attorney. Not me, of course, but some . . . That would be me. " H. Huntzinger" <{NOSPAM-rm_to_reply}rec-scuba@huntzinger.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: :Of all the classes, the Resort Course is the one that has the greatest :variation in quality (mostly bad), as well as being the poorest value :for a customer that chooses to go on diving (both in terms of the total :cost of dive training, as well as the cost of doing it while you're :paying time & money to be at some nice resort someplace). The resort course offers excellent value to the person who just wants to try diving. Costs vary, I have seen it offered for free, and also seen it cost a couple of hundred bucks. However, gear was included with every resort course I have seen. While the total cost is more if you take a resort course and follow it up with open water certification, for those who do the resort dive and nothing else ever, the cost is probably less. Dan Bracuk If at first you don't succeed, you run the risk of failure. The Best of rec.scuba http://www.pathcom.com/~bracuk/RecScuba/ > The resort course offers excellent value to the person who just wants > to try diving...While the total cost is more if you take a resort > course and follow it up with open water certification, for those who > do the resort dive and nothing else ever, the cost is probably less. This is the problem with the Resort course: its a good value if only ever taken once, and then never followed-up upon. > Costs vary, I have seen it offered for free, and also > seen it cost a couple of hundred bucks. However, gear > was included with every resort course I have seen. I've never seen a Resort course (at a Resort) offered for free. Typically, the ones I've seen run in the $75-$99 range. The only freebies (or close to) I've seen were local dive shop heated pool based 'discover' promotions, usually in the cold of winter :-) The rule of thumb that I use for Resort Courses is to take no more than one. If you think you want to do it again, its really time to get your OW-I. Also, price isn't everything. I don't know what percentage I'd put on it, but "too often enough", I've seen Resort Course divers who were allowed to do things by their instructor that were standards violations. One example included the RC divers going deeper than 60fsw. A Resort Course may be cheap, but from a safety standpoint, its IMO probably the course that is most subject to 'hit or miss' on quality. -hh > > The resort course offers excellent value to the person who just wants > > to try diving...While the total cost is more if you take a resort [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > The only freebies (or close to) I've seen were local dive shop heated > pool based 'discover' promotions, usually in the cold of winter :-) When my wife and I took our resort course, it was free (read included in the resort price). We took ours at Grand Lido Negril in Jamaica. They offered to certify us (PADI) afterwards for the gracious price of $350 each. I told them I wasn't interested and went home and got certified (SSI) at the local college for about $165 each. Plus, I'm fairly certain that our instructor was better (for us anyway) at the college. C Guynn "Chris Guynn" <chrisguynn@sbcglobal.N.O.S.P.A.M.net> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: :When my wife and I took our resort course, You ovbiously died a horrible death. Taking a resort course is almost as deadly as being a PADI Divemaster, diving with split fins, or booking a trip with Peter Hughes. Dan Bracuk If at first you don't succeed, you run the risk of failure. The Best of rec.scuba http://www.pathcom.com/~bracuk/RecScuba/ " H. Huntzinger" <{NOSPAM-rm_to_reply}rec-scuba@huntzinger.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: :This is the problem with the Resort course: its a good value if only :ever taken once, and then never followed-up upon. First of all, that is not a problem. Secondly, the person buying the course might do so as a reasonably low cost trial. If they like it, the total cost is higher, but they felt it was worth the price of the resort course to see whether or not they might enjoy diving. Dan Bracuk If at first you don't succeed, you run the risk of failure. The Best of rec.scuba http://www.pathcom.com/~bracuk/RecScuba/ > Can we go out diving with an organised group, or is there no way to go > diving without the license? Do you want to die? Don't be stupid, do not dive without the proper training. Hi Tim PADI offers the "Discover Scuba Diving" course, which will give you an easy and safe introduction to scuba diving. (I believe other agencies offer a similar course)http://www.padi.com/english/common/courses/rec/begin/dsdsd.asp If you are really serious about starting to dive, I would still advise you and your future wife to take an "Open Water Diver" course to learn the basics. Some dive shops ? Resorts will allow you to split the course into to parts. At home you do all the theory and confined water sessions (I suggest that B a pool), and when on vacation you can do the open water sessions in 2 days! ;-> gjw > Hi Tim > PADI offers the "Discover Scuba Diving" course, which will give you an easy > and safe introduction to scuba diving. Only as safe as those that provide it. Do you have information about the operators in Egypt? Lee "gjw" <gjw@mindless,com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: :If you are really serious about starting to dive, I would still advise you :and your future wife to take an "Open Water Diver" course to learn the :basics. But if you are not serious, and just want to go diving once or twice on this trip, take a resort course. If you like it enough to get certified afterwards, that's still allowed. Dan Bracuk If at first you don't succeed, you run the risk of failure. The Best of rec.scuba http://www.pathcom.com/~bracuk/RecScuba/ >My fiancee and I will be going to Egypt for our honeymoon next year. >We would love to spend a day scuba diving whilst we are there, but do >not have the time to do a PADI (or equivalent) course. > >Can we go out diving with an organised group, or is there no way to go >diving without the license? SCUBA is a safe sport because of widely accepted training standards. The most common cause of injury or death is people who dive beyond the limits of their training and experience. If you do not have the proper training there are a number of things that can cause severe, painful and possibly permanent injury -- or even death. If you do not have the time to complete a Basic Open Water certification, you could do a "resort course". This is a short program that does NOT provide a ceritification, but will allow you to dive under the instructor's close supervision. It is not hard to learn how to SCUBA dive safely, but it is necessary to have at least minimal instruction. SignatureCharlie Hammond -- Hewlett-Packard Company -- Ft Lauderdale FL USA (hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com -- remove "@not" when replying) All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's. > Newbie question here.. > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Thanks for your thoughts. Hi Tim I'm very new to the Diving world, so there is a good chance what I say may get blasted by those more informed then me. I went to the USVI last February with my Advanced Open Water Fianc?, I wanted to dive when we were there because I've always wanted to dive. He suggested I do a discover diving course for $100.00 just to check it out before I started really investing into it. If you love diving, the investment is well worth it. Anyway, I'm not sure if they have anything like that in Egypt, but the class was well worth it and my first dive to 15 feet was a whole new world. I couldn't wait until I got back home to start up classes and become a diver. We dove at 15 feet to 20 feet for 30 minutes. We spent maybe an hour getting the skeleton basics. I really mean skeleton, now that I've had the OW class I can't believe how basic that training was. Our instructor "PADI Master Instructor", would only allow 2 none certified divers on the course. So he could watch both of us I assume, and everyone else needed to be paired in buddies. My fianc? was buddy to someone else we never met. We practiced on the boat for about 1/2 hour breathing through a regulator while docked, and then again while traveling to the dive site with a regulator. First we snorkeled for about 45 minutes, then dove for 1/2 hour. It was wonderful. I wouldn't dive without some training, I couldn't imagine just having someone throw my gear on, and say breath through this and jump in the water. I guess that was pretty damn close to what we had, but we did get two hours of regulator breathing. If you've never done it, it definitely takes some skill and a comfort level in the water to enjoy it. Just my two cents, Jane > > Newbie question here.. > > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > diving course for $100.00 just to check it out before I started really > investing into it. Which of course, means that you just spent $100 more for your dive training than was necessary. >If you love diving, the investment is well worth it. > Anyway, I'm not sure if they have anything like that in Egypt, but the class [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > getting the skeleton basics. I really mean skeleton, now that I've had the > OW class I can't believe how basic that training was. Right. Good recommendation to a first timer. Get as little instruction as possible and head down to 20-40 feet. >Our instructor "PADI > Master Instructor", would only allow 2 none certified divers on the course. > So he could watch both of us I assume, and everyone else needed to be paired > in buddies. My fianc? was buddy to someone else we never met. We practiced > on the boat for about 1/2 hour breathing through a regulator while docked, > and then again while traveling to the dive site with a regulator. LOL >First we > snorkeled for about 45 minutes, then dove for 1/2 hour. It was wonderful. Well, I'm glad it turned out well for you. > I wouldn't dive without some training, I couldn't imagine just having > someone throw my gear on, and say breath through this and jump in the water. No. One wouldn't want that. > I guess that was pretty damn close to what we had, but we did get two hours > of regulator breathing. LOL If you've never done it, it definitely takes some > skill and a comfort level in the water to enjoy it. If he wants to see if he would be interested in SCUBA diving but doesn't want to take the full blown course, he should take a Discover Scuba course, at home, they run about $20 or 25. Then if he finds that OK, he should take all of his training for OW and probably AOW too. .. >> ... I [did] a discover >> diving course for $100.00 just to check it out before I started really [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >>If you love diving, the investment is well worth it. .. >Right. Good recommendation to a first timer. Get as little instruction as >possible and head down to 20-40 feet. Jane posted the most nicely written and some of the best advice seen in REC.SCUBA for sometime. Why am I not suprised that someone had to disprespect her? (SOMEthing about this group) {sigh} Jane, don't be disenheartened. Yours was a fine posting! Tim, Jane's advice is excellent for you. Her experience is similar to my wife's and mine -- we stated with a resort course and are very happy we did. Although the resort course does not officialy count toword Open Water ceritication, the experience does help you to get a lot more from the Open Water class. Every diver has a first dive. SignatureCharlie Hammond -- Hewlett-Packard Company -- Ft Lauderdale FL USA (hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com -- remove "@not" when replying) All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's. > .. > >> ... I [did] a discover [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > in REC.SCUBA for sometime. Why am I not suprised that someone had to > disprespect her? (SOMEthing about this group) {sigh} My apologies. I should first have qualified my statements by saying that Jane had made a very nice post but that her recommendations were misguided. > Jane, don't be disenheartened. Yours was a fine posting! Right, Jane. Don't be disenheartened, everyone here has a voice and yours is welcome. However anyone here, including me, that gives bad advice will be corrected. > Tim, Jane's advice is excellent for you. Obviously, I couldn't disagree more. > Her experience is similar to > my wife's and mine -- we stated with a resort course and are very > happy we did. I'm very happy that you didn't have a mask flood and panic as I have known a number of others to do on a resort course. >Although the resort course does not officialy count > toword Open Water ceritication, the experience does help you to get > a lot more from the Open Water class. Right, and costs you $100 more right off the top, with nothing to show for it. > Every diver has a first dive. Right and hopefully that first dive is with your OW instructor. > > .. > > >> ... I [did] a discover [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > I'm very happy that you didn't have a mask flood and panic as I have known a > number of others to do on a resort course. My resort course taught me how to deal with that. Actually, I already knew becaue I'd taken a class in college, but my wife didn't and she learned in the course. > >Although the resort course does not officialy count > > toword Open Water ceritication, the experience does help you to get > > a lot more from the Open Water class. > > Right, and costs you $100 more right off the top, with nothing to show for > it. And if you decide you don't like diving, you're only out $100. Like this lady who was in the resort course with me. As she started down the line for our dive, she got about 5 feet under and stopped. The instructor worked with her for about 10 minutes (at 5 feet) then took her back to the boat because she couldn't deal with the open water. She waited for us back on the boat. She could have gone all the way through the course in the pool and never had a problem. Then she would have been out the entire cost of the course, books, and possibly gear. Instead, she got to find out that diving wasn't her thing and (in this case) it didn't cost her anything more than she had already paid for the trip. > > Every diver has a first dive. > > Right and hopefully that first dive is with your OW instructor. Who just might even teach resort courses. Your experience doesn't count then, because you'd had previous dive training. With regard to your comment about the mask flooding, the people that I've met that had that problem had also been "taught" how to deal with it before they got into the ocean on their resort course. It would seem to me that now that you have so much more experience, you'd have a much better idea of all that could have gone wrong while you and/or your wife were 'resort coursing' instead of getting proper training and preparation for your "first dive". > > Right, and costs you $100 more right off the top, with nothing to show for > > it. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > with her for about 10 minutes (at 5 feet) then took her back to the boat > because she couldn't deal with the open water. Right, and for $20-25 she could have taken a Discover Scuba course at home and found out before she spent the $100 to go down 5'. She waited for us back on > the boat. She could have gone all the way through the course in the pool > and never had a problem. Usually what happens is that you get a kickback of some or most of the cost depending on how far you get. If it was your first night out and you found out then that diving wasn't for you, you'd get most everything back. > Then she would have been out the entire cost of > the course, books, and possibly gear. Instead, she got to find out that > diving wasn't her thing and (in this case) it didn't cost her anything more > than she had already paid for the trip. My point is that had she done a Discover Scuba at home before she left, she wouldn't have had to pay even the $100 to find out that diving wasn't for her. > > > Every diver has a first dive. > > > > Right and hopefully that first dive is with your OW instructor. > > Who just might even teach resort courses. Now we are back to how much you can learn on a resort course and it's ultimate benefit. Of course, you and I disagree on that. > Your experience doesn't count then, because you'd had previous dive > training. But my wife hadn't and she did fine. She even flooded her mask in teh ocean and had no problem fixing it and continuing the dive. > With regard to your comment about the mask flooding, the people > that I've met that had that problem had also been "taught" how to deal with > it before they got into the ocean on their resort course. Maybe it's because we are both extremely comfortable in the water. > It would seem to me that now that you have so much more experience, you'd > have a much better idea of all that could have gone wrong while you and/or > your wife were 'resort coursing' instead of getting proper training and > preparation for your "first dive". I do have a much better idea of what could go wrong, but I also realize that the resort course dives were very limited in scope. We were never deeper than about 35 feet and always stayed very close to one another. It was nice that I had some prior experience, but I don't feel that it was exceptionally necessary. > > > Right, and costs you $100 more right off the top, with nothing to show > for [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Right, and for $20-25 she could have taken a Discover Scuba course at home > and found out before she spent the $100 to go down 5'. But the resort course at the resort I was staying at was free (actually, included in the cost of the resort... along with food, drinks, and all non-motorized water sports and all resort sponsored activities). So that was an even better deal for her. Of course, I'll also admit that if she had had more training (especially pool time), she may have felt more comfortable and actually enjoyed diving. > She waited for us back on > > the boat. She could have gone all the way through the course in the pool [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > depending on how far you get. If it was your first night out and you found > out then that diving wasn't for you, you'd get most everything back. I don't think that would have been the case in my situation. We took the course through the college and it *technically* wasn't a certification course. However, our instructor took us out (after the half-smester course was over) and certified those of us who were interested. He didn't charge us anything extra for the certification (unless we needed to rent equipment... which we all did... but $20 for everything but mask and fins, including tanks, is a pretty good deal). I'm pretty sure that we would have been SOL if we had found out on our first dive that we weren't suited for it since we had actually paid the college for the training. > > Then she would have been out the entire cost of > > the course, books, and possibly gear. Instead, she got to find out that [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > wouldn't have had to pay even the $100 to find out that diving wasn't for > her. In this case, she didn't. > > > > Every diver has a first dive. > > > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Now we are back to how much you can learn on a resort course and it's > ultimate benefit. Of course, you and I disagree on that. Of course. :-) You can actually learn a lot in a resort course, but it is still a VERY limited experience. Interestingly, on our first open-water dive, my wife didn't have enough weight (she had about 8 pounds and needed between 10 and 12). We didn't realize this until we were at 35 feet and she had to swim at an angle to stay down and move forward. She didn't enjoy the dive that much until she managed to convey the problem to the DM who gave her some of his weight and that helped a lot. The next day, we demanded more weight and she had a MUCH better time. If she had taken a real course, she probably would have known much sooner that she was underweighted and would have enjoyed the first dive that much more. Resort courses are definitely not always the best option, but they can be a good option for many people. > I do have a much better idea of what could go wrong, but I also realize that > the resort course dives were very limited in scope. We were never deeper > than about 35 feet and always stayed very close to one another. It was nice > that I had some prior experience, but I don't feel that it was exceptionally > necessary. Do a Google Group search on resort course and you'll soon find why so many of us worry about them. You should have no problem finding at least some that included dives beyond what PADI recommends for Open Water I divers and/or dives with absolutely crazy novice to experienced diver ratios. Lee "Lee Bell" <leebell@ix.remove.netcom.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: :Do a Google Group search on resort course and you'll soon find why so many :of us worry about them. Better yet, compare the death rate of totally untrained resort coursers to the death rate of abuntantly trained tech divers, and you'll soon find out why so many of us are not worried in the slightest. Dan Bracuk If at first you don't succeed, you run the risk of failure. The Best of rec.scuba http://www.pathcom.com/~bracuk/RecScuba/ "Dan Bracuk, wrote > :Do a Google Group search on resort course and you'll soon find why so many > :of us worry about them. > Better yet, compare the death rate of totally untrained resort > coursers to the death rate of abuntantly trained tech divers, and > you'll soon find out why so many of us are not worried in the > slightest. One possible death is enough for me to worry about if it happens to be me or somebody I love. Perhaps the real reasons you're not worried are: 1. It's not you or somebody you love. 2. You already went out and got the training we're recommending to somebody else. Lee > "Dan Bracuk, wrote > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > somebody I love. Perhaps the real reasons you're not worried are: > 1. It's not you or somebody you love. It was... > 2. You already went out and got the training we're recommending to somebody > else. I have (and had then), but my wife hadn't then. Honestly, I didn't worry about it then (after I had some training and my wife didn't); although, if I had thought it was a poor job of teaching the *very* basics I wouldn't have let my wife go (and consequently probably wouldn't have gone myself). > Lee > I have (and had then), but my wife hadn't then. Honestly, I didn't worry > about it then (after I had some training and my wife didn't); although, if I > had thought it was a poor job of teaching the *very* basics I wouldn't have > let my wife go (and consequently probably wouldn't have gone myself). So, you conclude that it's fine for one diver who happens to have a DM or Instructor card, to take half a dozen divers to depth of, say 80 feet or so, right? Either that or you haven't bothered to look to see the kind of resort courses that have been offered in some parts of the world. Do you know what the rules and controls are in Egypt? Neither do I. Lee > > I have (and had then), but my wife hadn't then. Honestly, I didn't worry > > about it then (after I had some training and my wife didn't); although, if [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > right? Either that or you haven't bothered to look to see the kind of > resort courses that have been offered in some parts of the world. This is a valid point. In my experience, we had a DM/Instructor for every 2-3 people and only went to a depth of about 35 feet. Maybe, instead of saying that these courses are (generically) good or bad, we should explain what questions to ask to find out if that particular course is good or bad. I would think that these would be important questions: 1.) Instructor/DM to student ratio 2.) Max depth attained in dive (I would probably limit this to around 35-40 feet... shallower is better) 3.) Skills learned in the "pool" portion of the course (assuming there is one... if not, don't go). Skills learned should include (not an inclusive list) 3a.) mask clearing 3b.) purpose/use of all equipment (regulators/weight belt/bc functions/etc...) 3c.) retrieval of regulator if lost 3d.) HAND SIGNALS I'm sure there are other questions and would love for someone to help complete the list. Anyone taking a resort course should know that you can end the dive at ANY time. If you are uncomfortable, let a DM/Instructor and your buddy know and surface (slowly if at all possible). C Guynn Chris Guynn schrieb: > This is a valid point. In my experience, we had a DM/Instructor for every > 2-3 people and only went to a depth of about 35 feet. Maybe, instead of [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > 3c.) retrieval of regulator if lost > 3d.) HAND SIGNALS You miss the most relevant question: Experience and qualification of the instructor. "Quali" as in quality. Matthias > Chris Guynn schrieb: > > [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Matthias Holy cow... of course. Sorry about the omission... > This is a valid point. In my experience, we had a DM/Instructor for every > 2-3 people and only went to a depth of about 35 feet. Maybe, instead of > saying that these courses are (generically) good or bad, we should explain > what questions to ask to find out if that particular course is good or bad. Finally, communication happens. I've taken non divers out for a dive myself. I provided some basic instruction, controlled the dive at all times and was prepared and positioned to ensure against something deadly, like a paniced bolt for the surface. It can be done safely, but all too often, it's not. That's why I suggested a search to reveal the kind of dives that have been done under the heading "resort course." The potential problem is compounded by the fact that the complete novice is unlikely to have the knowledge to ask the right questions or to know when he/she has gotten a bad answer. > I would think that these would be important questions: > 1.) Instructor/DM to student ratio [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > 3c.) retrieval of regulator if lost > 3d.) HAND SIGNALS Not a bad list, but you need to provide an acceptable DM to student ratio. Personally, I like one to one. I've seen how quickly somebody in panic can turn a bad situation into a worse one. Lee > > This is a valid point. In my experience, we had a DM/Instructor for every > > 2-3 people and only went to a depth of about 35 feet. Maybe, instead of [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > Not a bad list, but you need to provide an acceptable DM to student ratio. I agree, but I think the actual limit might be flexible based on the comfort level of the students. I would say any more than 3 students per DM is too many though (in any situation). However, I am not that experienced and would probably defer to those who have more experience in this matter. > Personally, I like one to one. I've seen how quickly somebody in panic can > turn a bad situation into a worse one. > > Lee > I agree, but I think the actual limit might be flexible based on the comfort > level of the students. I would say any more than 3 students per DM is too > many though (in any situation). However, I am not that experienced and > would probably defer to those who have more experience in this matter. > > Personally, I like one to one. I've seen how quickly somebody in panic > > can turn a bad situation into a worse one. Anything greater than one to one and there's a good chance that any problem will require the DM/Instructor to leave one or more divers in order to help the one with the problem. Lee >Do a Google Group search on resort course and you'll soon find why so many >of us worry about them. You should have no problem finding at least some >that included dives beyond what PADI recommends for Open Water I divers >and/or dives with absolutely crazy novice to experienced diver ratios. I admit I haven't done the search. I also admit that there are a lot of people in the world that seem to act "crazy", at least some of the time. That said, if I do the search will I find a long list of people who were killed or seriously injured in resrort courses? I'm sure there are some, just by chance; I doubt there is a long list. Thus I do NOT understand why "so many of us worry about [resort courses]". My personal experience indicates that they are a very good way to find out about SCUBA. SignatureCharlie Hammond -- Hewlett-Packard Company -- Ft Lauderdale FL USA (hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com -- remove "@not" when replying) All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's. > I admit I haven't done the search. I also admit that there are a lot of > people in the world that seem to act "crazy", at least some of the time. It took you longer to write this that it would have taken to do the search. It's not so much the crazy people, but the uncaring. Those that will take somebody that does not have a clue about the risks that you and I learned years ago, and take half a dozen or more of them, to depths over 60 feet, with only a single DM or Instructor to try to ensure the return safely. > That said, if I do the search will I find a long list of people who were > killed or seriously injured in resrort courses? I'm sure there are some, > just by chance; I doubt there is a long list. Thus I do NOT understand > why "so many of us worry about [resort courses]". My personal experience > indicates that they are a very good way to find out about SCUBA. We worry about them because we, as a whole, know that in Scuba, the time to worry is before you drop below the surface. Lee (snip)> I do have a much better idea of what could go wrong, but I also realize that > the resort course dives were very limited in scope. We were never deeper > than about 35 feet (snip) And now Chris, that you are a much more experienced and knowledgable diver, can you tell me what is wrong within your prior sentence? (snip)> But the resort course at the resort I was staying at was free (actually, > included in the cost of the resort... along with food, drinks, and all > non-motorized water sports and all resort sponsored activities). How was the food? All drinks or just domestic brands? (giggle) >(snip) > > > > Now we are back to how much you can learn on a resort course and it's > > ultimate benefit. Of course, you and I disagree on that. > > Of course. :-) "Convince a man against his will and he'll be of the same opinion still." :^) Just ask Bracuk about the Blue Hole. > You can actually learn a lot in a resort course, but it is still a VERY > limited experience. Learn what? > Interestingly, on our first open-water dive, my wife > didn't have enough weight (she had about 8 pounds and needed between 10 and > 12). We didn't realize this until we were at 35 feet and she had to swim at > an angle to stay down and move forward. And now that you are a much more experienced and knowledgable diver, what do you think is wrong within your prior sentence? >She didn't enjoy the dive that much > until she managed to convey the problem to the DM who gave her some of his [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > first dive that much more. Resort courses are definitely not always the > best option, but they can be a good option for many people. Ergo, they can also be a bad option for many people. > (snip)> I do have a much better idea of what could go wrong, but I also > realize that [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > And now Chris, that you are a much more experienced and knowledgable diver, > can you tell me what is wrong within your prior sentence? I think that *much* more experienced may be an overstatement. I have more (better) training and I understand more about what I am doing and why, but for a "hold-my-hand," "baby" dive I think the resort course did a fine job. Incidentally, from what I can remember, hte biggest differences between my resort course and my actual training/certification course were: 1.) more practice time in the cert course 2.) More theory (i.e. Boyle's law, etc...) in the cert course. The problems were covered in the resort course, but not the theory behind the problems. Basically it was a situation of "if you go up to fast, you could seriously injure yourself" and "never hold your breath." These points were harped on quite a bit, but the reasoning behind them was left out. 3.) No dive planning in the resort course (because they took care of all the "planning" for us). We didn't discuss dive profiles, RNT, TNT, or any of the related items because we were only allowed to do a single, 30 foot dive for 30 minutes each day (except the day after we arrived and the day before we left). Basically, it was a matter of "these are the things you need to not do" and "these are the things you need to be able to do." We even had a short training on bouyancy (albeit it was quite limited) and staying off the bottom/coral (unless instructed it was okay in that location). > (snip)> But the resort course at the resort I was staying at was free > (actually, > > included in the cost of the resort... along with food, drinks, and all > > non-motorized water sports and all resort sponsored activities). > > How was the food? All drinks or just domestic brands? (giggle) The baby lamb chops were *excellent." The restaurants were quite wonderful. One night, they had a beach party where local vendors came and we could sample the wares (also excellent). As far as drinks were concerned, everything they stocked was free (included). There were a few drinks they couldn't make because they didn't have all of the ingredients (I couldn't determine if they were out or didn't stock them at all), but they were rather well stocked. They wouldn't have been able to keep up with an American bar, but they did a pretty good job (and were *very* generous with the liquor). My wife and I actually ended up bringing home 2 (it would have been three, but sometimes you get thirsty... <eg>) absolutely free bottles of alcohol (one litre bottle of Sangers Jamaican Rum Cream and one litre bottle of Appleton Estate Rum). > >(snip) > > > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Learn what? basics (very). Although, *you* probably already know everything that would be covered, so, I guess, that *you* probably wouldn't learn too much in one. :-) > > Interestingly, on our first open-water dive, my wife > > didn't have enough weight (she had about 8 pounds and needed between 10 [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > And now that you are a much more experienced and knowledgable diver, what do > you think is wrong within your prior sentence? Considering that it really wasn't that big of a problem, I'd say not that much really. > >She didn't enjoy the dive that much > > until she managed to convey the problem to the DM who gave her some of his [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Ergo, they can also be a bad option for many people. true, but you don't know unless you try... ;-) > I think that *much* more experienced may be an overstatement. I have more > (better) training and I understand more about what I am doing and why, but > for a "hold-my-hand," "baby" dive I think the resort course did a fine job. Not at all. Knowing the essentials is much more experience than not knowing. Your relative was safe because you made sure that the dive planned was one you felt comfortable with her doing and probably because you knew she got enough prior instruction to be safe doing it. What you have not considered is how many try a dive and resort dive operators there are that would have taken your wife beyond the "baby" dive level, to a depth beyond what even the agencies recommend for entry level divers, without the prior instruction. > 1.) more practice time in the cert course None versus enough to demonstrate proficiency. Done in a pool, where the student can stand up, versus done at depth where the student can't. > 2.) More theory (i.e. Boyle's law, etc...) in the cert course. Hopefully nobody ever failed to tell a student not to hold their breath, but your course taught you why. > > I think that *much* more experienced may be an overstatement. I have more > > (better) training and I understand more about what I am doing and why, but [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > None versus enough to demonstrate proficiency. Done in a pool, where the > student can stand up, versus done at depth where the student can't. In my resort course (which is my only real frame of reference) we did have some pool time (about 3 hours). It wasn't enough to get the skills down pat, but it was enough to be introduced to the skills (and some people were not allowed to go if they weren't capable (in the DMs eyes) of doing the dive safely (yes, I did see people turned away... 1 person because they were drunk and 1 person because they had NO ability to become neutrally bouyant) > > 2.) More theory (i.e. Boyle's law, etc...) in the cert course. > > Hopefully nobody ever failed to tell a student not to hold their breath, but > your course taught you why. They stressed not holding your breath, but the explanation was that you could SERIOUSLY injure yourself if you did. "chilly" <slarson@shaw.canada> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: :My apologies. I should first have qualified my statements by saying that :Jane had made a very nice post but that her recommendations were misguided. In what way were they misguided? Dan Bracuk If at first you don't succeed, you run the risk of failure. The Best of rec.scuba http://www.pathcom.com/~bracuk/RecScuba/ > "chilly" <slarson@shaw.canada> pounded away at his keyboard resulting > in: > :My apologies. I should first have qualified my statements by saying that > :Jane had made a very nice post but that her recommendations were misguided. > > In what way were they misguided? In a similar way to your advice to others regarding the Blue Hole is misguided. "chilly" <slarson@shaw.canada> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: :In a similar way to your advice to others regarding the Blue Hole is :misguided. Misguided in that I base my advice on my own opinion which is based on my own observations? Or misguided some other way? Dan Bracuk If at first you don't succeed, you run the risk of failure. The Best of rec.scuba http://www.pathcom.com/~bracuk/RecScuba/ > "chilly" <slarson@shaw.canada> pounded away at his keyboard resulting > in: [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Or misguided some other way? No, that's the way. In response to: :> Misguided in that I base my advice on my own opinion which is based :> on my own observations? :> Or misguided some other way? "chilly" <slarson@shaw.canada> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: "chilly" <slarson@shaw.canada> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: :No, that's the way. So what is your thought process and why is it better? Dan Bracuk If at first you don't succeed, you run the risk of failure. The Best of rec.scuba http://www.pathcom.com/~bracuk/RecScuba/ > In response to: > :> Misguided in that I base my advice on my own opinion which is based [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > So what is your thought process and why is it better? More experienced. > Every diver has a first dive. That's not the problem. The first dive is easy. Being alive to make a second dive is where the problem is. Signature"We're going to rush the hijackers." -Jeremy Glick, aboard United Airlines flight 93, September 11, 2001 "Charlie Hammond" > Jane posted the most nicely written and some of the best advice seen > in REC.SCUBA for sometime. Why am I not suprised that someone had to [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Every diver has a first dive. Thanks Charlie... I'm not disenheartened, I've been dissed much harder in here, though it was purely accidental, apologies where accepted and no harm done. In fact I sort of expected to at least get a hard time from Chilly, she is the Queen Bee here, she might be afraid another female might get a little attention. Jane > In fact I sort of expected to at least get a hard time from Chilly, > she is the Queen Bee here, she might be afraid another female might > get a little attention. You don't worry her. Signature"We're going to rush the hijackers." -Jeremy Glick, aboard United Airlines flight 93, September 11, 2001 > ? In fact I sort of expected to at least get a hard time from Chilly, > ? she is the Queen Bee here, she might be afraid another female might > ? get a little attention. > > You don't worry her. Ok you're right shitty thing to say. Just being bitchy, if you read this Chilly I apologize if I offended you with my smart a.s comment. Jane > > ? In fact I sort of expected to at least get a hard time from Chilly, > > ? she is the Queen Bee here, she might be afraid another female might [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Ok you're right shitty thing to say. Just being bitchy, if you read this > Chilly I apologize if I offended you with my smart a.s comment. Not a bit. Not a bit. I say let's start over again. I'm sorry I took too hard a line this morning. "chilly" > Not a bit. Not a bit. > > I say let's start over again. I'm sorry I took too hard a line this > morning. Cool and yes I'd like to start over again. I've had my coffee this morning. Jane Tim -- Something has not been mentioned in this topic -- at least I've not seen it. There is a difference in the quality of SCUBA instructors. This includes Open Water instructors and Resort Course instructors. (Often the same people.) It is a good idea before taking ANY SCUBA instruction to talk to the instructor. Of course, if you have no SCUBA experience, you will not be able to judge the instructor's SCUBA knowldege and ability. But you can judge that he/she is the kind of person who seems truly intereted in you, and is willing to take time to answer your questions. If not, maybe you should find another instructor. (I am asuming that ANY instructor will be certified by one of the recognized SCUBA certifying agencies. You should ask about that when you talk with the instructor.) Hope you become a happy diver. SignatureCharlie Hammond -- Hewlett-Packard Company -- Ft Lauderdale FL USA (hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com -- remove "@not" when replying) All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's. hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com (Charlie Hammond) pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: :It is a good idea before taking ANY SCUBA instruction to talk to the :instructor. Of course, if you have no SCUBA experience, you will not :be able to judge the instructor's SCUBA knowldege and ability. But :you can judge that he/she is the kind of person who seems truly intereted :in you, and is willing to take time to answer your questions. If not, :maybe you should find another instructor. Of course, if you are taking a resort course at the resort at which you are staying, finding another instructor doesn't really seem like an available option. If you don't like the instructor, your choices are, take the course or don't. Dan Bracuk If at first you don't succeed, you run the risk of failure. The Best of rec.scuba http://www.pathcom.com/~bracuk/RecScuba/ "Jane" <jarsenalnospam@earthlink.net> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: :Ok you're right shitty thing to say. It is? You mean being called a queen isn't a compliment? Hm'mm. Dan Bracuk If at first you don't succeed, you run the risk of failure. The Best of rec.scuba http://www.pathcom.com/~bracuk/RecScuba/ "Dan Bracuk, > You mean being called a queen isn't a compliment? > > Hm'mm. I meant the Bee part <smile> Jane "Jane" <jarsenalnospam@earthlink.net> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: :I meant the Bee part <smile> Well that explains it then. Dan Bracuk If at first you don't succeed, you run the risk of failure. The Best of rec.scuba http://www.pathcom.com/~bracuk/RecScuba/ > "Dan Bracuk, > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > I meant the Bee part <smile> And just what is wrong with the birds and the Bees, I'd like to know? (g) > ? In fact I sort of expected to at least get a hard time from Chilly, > ? she is the Queen Bee here, she might be afraid another female might > ? get a little attention. > > You don't worry her. ;^) > I'm not disenheartened, I've been dissed much harder in here, though it was > purely accidental, apologies where accepted and no harm done. In fact I > sort of expected to at least get a hard time from Chilly, she is the Queen > Bee here, she might be afraid another female might get a little attention. LOL, Jane, you haven't been here long enough to make that determination one way or the other. That's OK. Stick around, you'll see. I for one would welcome some more Queen Bee's around here. > > I'm not disenheartened, I've been dissed much harder in here, though it > was > > purely accidental, apologies where accepted and no harm done. In fact I > > sort of expected to at least get a hard time from Chilly, she is the Queen > > Bee here, she might be afraid another female might get a little attention. > LOL, Jane, you haven't been here long enough to make that determination one > way or the other. Sure she has. She figured out that you were 'Momma Seeta'. Be proud. <G> > That's OK. Stick around, you'll see. I for one would welcome some more > Queen Bee's around here. Your Majesty, please do us other gals here a favor by asking her to go out and get photos for the "Men of Rec.Scuba Calendar". We might get this project up and running yet !!!! > > > I'm not disenheartened, I've been dissed much harder in here, though it > > was [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Sure she has. She figured out that you were 'Momma Seeta'. Be proud. > <G> But that's just it. I'm not Momma Seeta, you are. > > That's OK. Stick around, you'll see. I for one would welcome some more > > Queen Bee's around here. > > Your Majesty, please do us other gals here a favor by asking her to go > out and get photos for the "Men of Rec.Scuba Calendar". We might get > this project up and running yet !!!! LOL I'm sure she's already received one or two, if things are running par for the course around here. "chilly" > I'm sure she's already received one or two, if things are running par for > the course around here. Actually I haven't as of yet, but I'd sure hate to distribute my pic, the news group would go running and become extinct. Jane > "chilly" > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Jane For some reason, I seriously doubt that, but if you really feel it is a problem, send the pics to me (aggie4you@mypantsyahoo.com - remove mypants to email me) and I'll screen them for the rest of the group. :-) To the rest of the group: Should I suddenly stop posting for no apparent reason, you'll know why... ;-) "Chris Guynn" > For some reason, I seriously doubt that, but if you really feel it is a > problem, send the pics to me (aggie4you@mypantsyahoo.com - remove mypants to > email me) and I'll screen them for the rest of the group. :-) lol Clever! > To the rest of the group: Should I suddenly stop posting for no apparent > reason, you'll know why... ;-) > "Chris Guynn" > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > lol Clever! clever enough to earn a peek at some pics? :-) > > "Chris Guynn" > > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > clever enough to earn a peek at some pics? :-) Don't have any the camera broke ;o) Jane > > > "Chris Guynn" > > > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Jane Dag nabbit... All I want for Christmas are some pics... I'm thinking about getting a new camera soon. Do you want my old one when I do? > > "chilly" > > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > To the rest of the group: Should I suddenly stop posting for no apparent > reason, you'll know why... ;-) It's been good knowing you.... rhys > Actually I haven't as of yet, but I'd sure hate to distribute my pic, the > news group would go running and become extinct. I don't think you have anything to worry about. Quite a few of us have met in person and, by and large, we're not a particularly attractive group. There are exceptions. Lee >>Actually I haven't as of yet, but I'd sure hate to distribute my pic, the >>news group would go running and become extinct. > > I don't think you have anything to worry about. Quite a few of us have met > in person and, by and large, we're not a particularly attractive group. > There are exceptions. Team Stroke comes to mind... ;-) SignatureMichael Wolf ----- Cthulhu For President. Why settle for the lesser evil? remove stopspam to reply > > "chilly" <slarson@shaw.canada> wrote in message > news:<GpRDb.729891$pl3.194105@pd7tw3no>... [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > But that's just it. I'm not Momma Seeta, you are. Not hardly. I piss ppl off too much. You're much more diplomatic and rational than I am. :) > > > That's OK. Stick around, you'll see. I for one would welcome some more > > > Queen Bee's around here. > > > > Your Majesty, please do us other gals here a favor by asking her to go > > out and get photos for the "Men of Rec.Scuba Calendar". We might get > > this project up and running yet !!!! > LOL > I'm sure she's already received one or two, if things are running par for > the course around here. I think you're probably right. This NG is too funny. <g> |
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