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Scuba Forum / General / October 2006need honest opinion
I need some honest help. Don't take this post as spam,as I really need some opinions from divers. My wife an I (michigan divers) literally sold our web hosting clients to devote time to this new project. We started a dive organization called Brethren of the Coast...which quite simply is this; 1. we find providers (dive shops, rental cars, hotels, travel agents) that are willing to give discounts to our members. 2. diver joins for $29.95 per year and receives a cool credit card style membership card to present to provider for discounts 3. member also gets a free brethren email acct 4. some other benefits coming soon (diver profile pages, shirts, hats...) It's basically like a AAA membership for divers to get discounts worldwide on anything. My problem is. I've test marketed it on scubaboard.com and a few other sites, and sent mailings out and we've had some signups. But...I expect more. I need to know in your honest opinion what the site lacks, or, what would make it more interesting for divers to join in mass numbers. Of course feel free to sign up, but I'm really looking for non-candy coated diver opinions of the site and the idea. see: www.brethrenofthecoast.net Thanks! ~Rick snip > see: www.brethrenofthecoast.net breathrenof thecoast sounds like some nutty religious organisation, > snip > >> see: www.brethrenofthecoast.net > > breathrenof thecoast sounds like some nutty religious organisation, Actually the term 'Brethren of the Coast' has been around sine the 1600s. The pirate theme of the site warranted a membership and we chose the original membership that prirates of the era were part of. Originating from Buccaneers from Tortuga in 1632. But...I appreciate your no-holds barred comment - it's what I asked for. Thanks ~Rick > I need some honest help. Don't take this post as spam,as I really need some > opinions from divers. [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > Thanks! > ~Rick Similar programs have been tried for the past 20 years. Unfortunately none of them prospered enough to keep going. Somewhere in my collection of useless dive crap is a membership card that was supposed to get me a discount on air, gear and trips from the dive shops. It turned out that only 6 of the 150 shops in my area were members. lol If you can get about 80% or better participation of the dive shops, then you might have something. However, $29.95 is a lot to pay for the privilege of buying from only a handful of places. I would suggest that you get at least 100 dive shops from the bigger states and 50 from the smaller ones with a full representation of ALL the states before pushing for membership. I would be happy to give your members your standard discount on compressors, but you really need the support of dive shops to make a go of it. Just my $.02  SignatureRay Contreras =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Webmonkey for: http://www.ossystems.com http://www.bobs-garage.com http://www.holugt-usa.com http://www.rayzplace.com >> I need some honest help. Don't take this post as spam,as I really need >> some opinions from divers. [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > > Just my $.02 - - - Thanks Ray. Appreciate it. We did recently sign with Best Western and Enterprise rent-a-car Not dive shops, but definatelly worldwide coverage for some of the basic trip necessities. ~Rick > - - - > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > trip necessities. > ~Rick While that is good for you, it really doesn't give any reason for anyone to toss out the $30 membership fee just yet. Many "Membership" cards give the same or better discounts and most are free. I have one that came with my emergency road service insurance that gets me up to 40% off hotels, rental car discounts at almost all the national chains and a BUNCH of restaurants. If I were you, I would really be focusing on the diving aspect as that seems to be your target audience. Go directly to the dive shops with a promotion and see how many you can get signed up. That requires some work and you may have to leave the keyboard for a while and actually call or meet people (I know ... weird for you web centric people). But email will just get ignored or sent to the spam folder. Once you have a few hundred dive shops signed up, THEN you can come again and ask for money. Just my $.02 SignatureRay Contreras =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Webmonkey for: http://www.ossystems.com http://www.bobs-garage.com http://www.holugt-usa.com http://www.rayzplace.com snip> > I would be happy to give your members your standard discount on > compressors, but you really need the support of dive shops to make a go of > it. > > Just my $.02 ____ Thanks by the way. We dont have a standard discount. 10-25% seems to be the offer, depending on the service. To place your business for consideration go to: http://www.brethrenofthecoast.net/businesslist.html We do plan a dive shop blitz as well. The sites only been up for a few weeks and we have only done e-mail campaigns thus far. The Chatterton/Kohler participation is cool, but we wont know how that goes as they are in greece on the Britannic till 10/16. ~Rick > Of course feel free to sign up, but I'm really looking for non-candy > coated diver opinions of the site and the idea. > see: www.brethrenofthecoast.net > > Thanks! > ~Rick The name is longwinded, stupid, and -utterly- un-cool. And the ultimate marketing sin- it doesn't acronym. The idea isn't bad, but I doubt, as individuals, you could build a network fast enough to be of any value to the average diver. PADI, you ain't. If you had a couple 3-4000 locations to offer discounts in 50 states plus, maybe, but, what exactly would I get for my 30 bucks? You need membership base to sell yourselves to businesses, and involved businesses to sell memberships. You can't expect us to foot the bill while you ramp up, -if- you can. You're offering a pig in a poke. Get something -tangible- for your initial membership, Diver's Alert Network discount, coupons for Leisure Pro, something -any- diver can use, -any time-. Show me what value my membership is, if I don't go diving this year. SignaturePopeye People with courage and character always seem sinister to the rest. -Hesse www.finalprotectivefire.com >> Of course feel free to sign up, but I'm really looking for non-candy >> coated diver opinions of the site and the idea. [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > Show me what value my membership is, if I don't go diving this year. __________ Well. Again the name comes from the actual pirate fraternity from the 1600-1700s, but I guess is not for everyone. Based on your website above, and the tattoos you have I would think the name and pirate theme would be right up your alley. re Discounts: We did just sign with Best Western Hotels which offers discounts at all 4300 locations, and also Enterprise rent-a-car for worldwide discounts. Both of course could be used anywhere whether diving or not. Thanks ~Rick > __________ > Well. Again the name comes from the actual pirate fraternity from the [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Thanks > ~Rick I already have AAA & get a lot more coverage/ benefits from them than you offer. why would I want to purchase a membership? >> __________ >> Well. Again the name comes from the actual pirate fraternity from the [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > I already have AAA & get a lot more coverage/ benefits from them than you > offer. why would I want to purchase a membership? ___ maybe just to to help a fellow diver, and skull/crossbones is a lot cooler than 3 A's on a plastic card. really, I don't know, benefits are growing, and we will cater only to divers, not drivers. Give me some credit in trying to create something for a sport we all love. ~Rick >>> __________ >>> Well. Again the name comes from the actual pirate fraternity from the [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > a sport we all love. > ~Rick You wanted brutal honesty, you came to the right place. You would have gotten it anyway, this ain't Scubaboard. And anyway, you created something to line your own pockets. Your philanthropy is lost on me... SignaturePopeye People with courage and character always seem sinister to the rest. -Hesse www.finalprotectivefire.com >>>> __________ >>>> Well. Again the name comes from the actual pirate fraternity from the [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > Your philanthropy is lost on me... ____ I'm not complaining about the brutal honesty. I am in a sour mood tonight, but I asked for it. I LOVE diving (am obsessed with it) and HATE my day job and actually HATE money, and if I can create a business that revolves around diving there's nothing wrong with that. Even if I just get by on it I'll be happy. I'm not looking to get rich. I wanted to create something that is of use to me and other divers. There's no philanthropy here either accept for my asking for free advise from "fellow divers". And lining my own pockets, well, nothing wrong with that either...have to pay the bills, may as well try to do something good with something I love. I'm sure your lining your pockets in some way too unless you had a rich aunt or are a socialist. this is america, excuse me, America. I'll still be hanging around this forum whether or not any of you spend $29.95, I dont give a crap, some of you are good people and I enjoy the discussion. If you have ideas that could help me line your pockets too, I'm open for it and would be glad to help. After all as divers I think we are different from most folks and I would be willing to help any diver. ~Rick > I'll still be hanging around this forum whether or not any of you spend > $29.95, I dont give a crap, some of you are good people and I enjoy the > discussion. Good idea. > If you have ideas that could help me line your pockets too, I'm open for > it and would be glad to help. After all as divers I think we are different > from most folks and I would be willing to help any diver. We're all independently wealthy. That's how we affortd to be divers . . . and spend all this time posting to newsgroups. Lee >> I'll still be hanging around this forum whether or not any of you spend >> $29.95, I dont give a crap, some of you are good people and I enjoy the [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Lee ___________ heh, yes we are a wealthy bunch. Which prompts me to ask...How many of us have the classic early 1990's conversion van to both change in and carry our gear and loved ones...with only slight rust on it? ~Rick > Which prompts me to ask...How many of us have the classic early 1990's > conversion van to both change in and carry our gear and loved ones...with > only slight rust on it? Using the word "classic" along with the date 1990's puts a smile on my face. I've never had a van. I've had boats since I was 6, and cruising boats, ones with cabins, galleys and sleeping accomodations, since 1991. I'll probably never have a van. Between our two Durangos, Long Bed Ram 1500 pickup, "classic" 1994 Z-28 and no longer running 1988 Jeep Cherokee . . . which Popeye once suggested he could get to run . . . I have more than enough vehicles. Lee > I'll probably never have a van. Between our two Durangos, Long Bed Ram 1500 > pickup, "classic" 1994 Z-28 and no longer running 1988 Jeep Cherokee . . . > which Popeye once suggested he could get to run . . . I have more than > enough vehicles. You can carry quite a bit of stuff with a Cherokee if you stow it correctly... http://grumman581.googlepages.com/bryce-canyon-08.JPG Don't have a photo of the Florida trip from March of 2002 where I had my cylinders strapped to the cargo rack also... >> I'll probably never have a van. Between our two Durangos, Long Bed Ram 1500 >> pickup, "classic" 1994 Z-28 and no longer running 1988 Jeep Cherokee . . . [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > You can carry quite a bit of stuff with a Cherokee if you stow it > correctly... and I was thinking 180... > You can carry quite a bit of stuff with a Cherokee if you stow it > correctly... I could carry more in the Pickup, but it's not secure and I normally stop somewhere for something. Food and drinks with friends I only get to see when they come here to dive is worth the time it takes to be there, but not if all your equipment is gone when you return. My Durango is the drive to dive vehicle and it holds even more than the Cherokee. If anyone wants a 1988 Cherokee 4X4 badly enough to get it running again, it's available for $500. It was running fine when I parked it and everything but the cruise control worked fine. It's a fuel issue for sure. Squirted some started fluid in the intake and it ran as long as the fluid lasted. If I, or my wandering friend from Tennessee every get the damned thing running again, I'll get it painted and either get more for it, or, as Grumman suggests, stuff it full of dive gear and save the wear and tear on my Durango. Lee > If I, or my wandering friend from Tennessee every get the damned thing > running again, I'll get it painted and either get more for it, or, as > Grumman suggests, stuff it full of dive gear and save the wear and tear on > my Durango. You've got the welding equipment, you can build yourself a safari rack like on the top of my Cherokee easily enough... Coolers, gas cans, and the spare tire work out rather well up there, but you can also fit quite a few tanks up there... If I'm going to leave my Jeep someplace at night where I can't keep a watch on it, I usually put the tanks in the back with something covering them instead of on the top rack... Does your Cherokee have the factory roof rack rails or at least the mounting bolt holes in it already? If not, you might have to go with a different mounting technique -- gutter clamp mounts, perhaps... If you *really* want to be able to carry a lot of stuff with you, use a utility trailer... Preferably one of the enclosed ones that you can install one of the RV type air-conditioner units on top and have a small generator to run the air-conditioner, lights, and whatever else... Of course, your toll charges on the roads around there would then go up for the extra axle(s) and you then need a place to store it... Oh well, nothing's perfect, I guess... > You've got the welding equipment, you can build yourself a safari rack > like > on the top of my Cherokee easily enough... Coolers, gas cans, and the > spare > tire work out rather well up there, but you can also fit quite a few tanks > up there... Only if Magilla comes down to dive with me more often. I'll be damned if I'm lifting tanks high enough to put them on top of the Jeep. > If I'm going to leave my Jeep someplace at night where I can't > keep a watch on it, I usually put the tanks in the back with something > covering them instead of on the top rack... Does your Cherokee have the > factory roof rack rails or at least the mounting bolt holes in it already? > If not, you might have to go with a different mounting technique -- gutter > clamp mounts, perhaps... Mine has the sliding roof racks. > If you *really* want to be able to carry a lot of stuff with you, use a > utility trailer... Preferably one of the enclosed ones that you can [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > perfect, > I guess... Places to park around here are a real problem. If I were to put together something to sleep in, it would probably be a van. Actually, I'm thinking about something similar for when I take the ATVs out to the Glades. The make a pretty nice bed and tent for the bed of a long bed pickup. It would ride to the site in the cab and be set up in the bed after the ATV is out. I haven't quite figured out where the AC would go, maybe on the tailgate, blowing into the tent, maybe on a stand with a hose into the tent, something. I already have a 2kw Honda, the quiet, oh so expensive one. Lee > Only if Magilla comes down to dive with me more often. I'll be damned if > I'm lifting tanks high enough to put them on top of the Jeep. I have a lift kit on my XJ and I'm able to get the tanks off the top... Well, I step up on the nerf bars first and then possibly on the edge of the door opening, but I can reach them easily enough... At least as long as I put the tanks on the outer edge of the rack... As set of doubles might be a bit more ackward to get up there though... > Mine has the sliding roof racks. That's what mine had... The torx screws that hold it on are pretty strong... Remove them and then mount a curved piece of 3/4" square tubing for the new base... > Places to park around here are a real problem. Yeah, I noticed that... Not just at your home, but at some of the sites... Hell, it was difficult enough just finding a place to park my truck at some of the sites... That's one advantage of the XJ rack solution since the XJ can park in fairly small areas... > Actually, I'm thinking about something similar for when I take the ATVs out > to the Glades. The make a pretty nice bed and tent for the bed of a long [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > into the tent, something. I already have a 2kw Honda, the quiet, oh so > expensive one. When I was working under the panel in my aircraft a few years ago, I rigged up some duct work onto a window air-conditioner unit and had it blowing into the cockpit where I was working... To get under the panel, you need to basically be suspended upside down... What with the heat from a Houston summer and everything, I could just see myself getting stuck there and getting to say hello to Mr. Heatstroke... So, I rigged up something to make it at least bearable if I got stuck there... And I kept a cell phone on the floor nearby also... <grin> Grumman wrote: > I have a lift kit on my XJ and I'm able to get the tanks off the top... > Well, I step up on the nerf bars first and then possibly on the edge of [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > a > bit more ackward to get up there though... No nerf bars on mine. Besides, it's not getting the tanks down that worries me. It's getting them up. I did mention that I just put a set of doubles, right? >> Places to park around here are a real problem. > Yeah, I noticed that... Not just at your home, but at some of the sites... > Hell, it was difficult enough just finding a place to park my truck at > some > of the sites... That's one advantage of the XJ rack solution since the XJ > can park in fairly small areas... The Cherokee, or Durango, for that matter, are no problem to park either and, because things go inside instead of on top of them, I don't need a rack or nerf bars. The pickup is different. A long bed, club cab Ram is not exactly what you'd call compact. One day, I'll learn to park it, even nose in, in a single try . . . maybe. > When I was working under the panel in my aircraft a few years ago, I > rigged > up some duct work onto a window air-conditioner unit and had it blowing > into > the cockpit where I was working... That's pretty much my plan. I've been known to pretend I was confortable in a non airconditioned tent. Jayna refuses to pretend. > To get under the panel, you need to > basically be suspended upside down... What with the heat from a Houston [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > the > floor nearby also... <grin> Clear patent infringement. They've been doing that for aircraft at least back to the late 1960's. Lee > No nerf bars on mine. Besides, it's not getting the tanks down that worries > me. It's getting them up. I did mention that I just put a set of doubles, > right? That might be a bit more awkward... With singles, you reach over the edge of the rail and roll & lift them over the side, at which time, you're standing there with the tank over your head as you step down... Basically, the balance works out pretty good... I suspect that with a set of doubles, you might not be as well balance initially... On the other hand, removing a spare 31x10.50 tire from up there is pretty easy... Then again, with it, you're just rolling it over the rail of the rack sideways while holding the edges of the tire so that you step down with the tire over your head... Someone once asked me what Grace would do if she had a flat in my XJ and the spare was up there... Same thing she does no matter where else the spare might be -- she would call me... I'm sure that something could be designed that had holders for doubles and slid up on the rack through some sort of channel, perhaps with some rollers, and could be locked in place... Unless you were planning to quite a few sets of doubles, I don't see the real need for it though... You could put a few sets of doubles in the luggage area behind the rear seat of the XJ and if you don't have more than 2 people in the car, you can fold down the rear seat and put *a lot* of stuff back there... > The Cherokee, or Durango, for that matter, are no problem to park either > and, because things go inside instead of on top of them, I don't need a rack > or nerf bars. The rack is useful when you have something that you might not want to be messing up the interior of your vehicle or if you have a full load of passengers in addition to something else you need to carry... There is no perfect solution for everything... For some things, I use my 14 ft utility trailer... For others, I use my pickup or put it on top of my XJ... If I'm going offroad, I prefer to be in my XJ since I have a winch on it, it's lighter, and being an older vehicle, I'm not going to mind getting some scratches from branches and such on it... Although my pickup is a 4x4, it's quite a bit larger and heavier and quite frankly, just wouldn't be able to get into some of the places that I get my XJ into... > The pickup is different. A long bed, club cab Ram is not > exactly what you'd call compact. One day, I'll learn to park > it, even nose in, in a single try . . . maybe. Other than the parking aspects of it, a pickup gives quite a bit of flexibility... You could design a rack to fit the rear of it that would allow you to stow your dive gear in the bed while still giving you a platform above the bed for carrying an ATV... > That's pretty much my plan. I've been known to pretend I was confortable in > a non airconditioned tent. Jayna refuses to pretend. For use with a tent, I would think that it might be best to build a small frame around the air-conditioner with handles / protrusions on both sides to make it a bit easier to carry by two people... It would also allow you to slide it around with less chance of damaging the unit... It would also allow you to put the right slope on it so that the condensate drained properly... With a window unit, you're going to need to do more work to get it to work with a tent... There are some more expensive 'portable' units that sit entirely in the room that is to be cooled and then have an exhaust hose leading outside to get rid of the heat... You lose floor space with these and that might be an issue with the smaller area of most tents... They are also quite a bit more expensive than the typical window unit... > Clear patent infringement. They've been doing that for aircraft at least > back to the late 1960's. Made with foam board, duct tape, and plastic corrugated landscape drainage hose? That was what I happened to have on hand at the time, so that's what mine ended being made out of... The drainage hose is a bit stiff, so it doesn't work that well if you need to reposition the cool air supply... Still, it lasted long enough for me finish the panel work, so I'm not complaining too much... I had previously tried working under the panel without a cool air supply and considering the heat and the fact that my shoulders are too wide to fit in there without a bit of contortion, it sucks... Removing the seats didn't help because then I had the round wing spar with various sharp brackets sticking into my back... Easiest solution might have been to have been suspended by my feet and lowered through the canopy opening head first... At least I have that option in my plane... The aircraft that have doors only allow you to do contortions... One guy I know who used to be an A&P said that the mechanics nicknamed the Beechcrafts "Bitchcrafts" due to the pain they were to work on... It's not like the convenience of removing seats in my XJ -- it's so easy that if I need to vacuum underneath the seats, I'll just remove them first... > The rack is useful when you have something that you might not want to be > messing up the interior of your vehicle or if you have a > full load of passengers in addition to something else you need to carry... > There is no perfect solution for everything... Sure there is, multiple vehicles. Just throw more money at the problem. > For some things, I use my 14 ft utility trailer... I have a 14 I built to haul the ATVs. It's such a pain in the butt to get out of the back yard, that I bought the pickup to carry one of them and kept the original small trailer for the other. Works great. As soon as we can be sure his ATV will fit on my trailer, I'll loan, more or less permanently, my trailer to a friend that doesn't have one. > If I'm going offroad, I prefer to be in my XJ since I have a winch on it, > it's lighter, and being an older vehicle, I'm not going to > mind getting some scratches from branches and such on it... Although my > pickup is a 4x4, it's quite a bit larger and heavier and > quite frankly, just wouldn't be able to get into some of the places that I > get my XJ into... Yep. The Cherokee is 4WD, which the only reason I kept it when I bought the Z-28. It needs a substantial lift and much bigger tires to go offroad down here, but it worked fine for rock and dirt roads as well as slick boat ramps, for a long time. It became pretty redundant when I got the Durango, which has a lot to do with why it's not running now. You can't let a car sit forever and expect it to run well, at least I couldn't. > Other than the parking aspects of it, a pickup gives quite a bit of > flexibility... You could design a rack to fit the rear of it that > would allow you to stow your dive gear in the bed while still giving you a > platform above the bed for carrying an ATV... Yep. My next vehicle will almost certainly be another 4WD pickup. By the time I get another car, I'll probably be retired which will give me the time to travel to the kind of places that make a 4WD worth having. There aren't many of them down here. Generally speaking, if you can go there with a car or truck at all, you can do it with 2WD. Off roading in S. Florida usually means a swamp buggy, ATV or full track. > For use with a tent, I would think that it might be best to build a small > frame around the air-conditioner with handles / protrusions on both sides [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > and that might be an issue with the smaller area of most tents... They are > also quite a bit more expensive than the typical window unit... Small window units are light enough for me to handle them unassisted. Even the relatively larger window unit I have to cool our bedroom when I have to rely on generator power, is light enough I can handle it alone if necessary. Initially, I figured I'd just sit it on the tailgate and let it blow into the tent through the mosquito netting. I don't need much of an angle to get it to drain properly. Handles, though, aren't a bad idea. > Made with foam board, duct tape, and plastic corrugated landscape drainage > hose? Some of them. Lee > Sure there is, multiple vehicles. Just throw more money at the problem. I was talking about a single solution that worked for every mission profile... Throwing money at the problem is what we do now... It's the reason you have multiple vehicles and multiple boats... As you're well aware, you gotta have a place to store all your toys... That's where it starts getting interesting... My current house has a large enough back and side yards that I can easily move my toys out of sight... I can also store some of them in my hangar... Your side yard is such that it is not easy for you to move your trailer from your back yard to the street... > I have a 14 I built to haul the ATVs. It's such a pain in the butt to get > out of the back yard, that I bought the pickup to carry one of them and kept > the original small trailer for the other. Works great. As soon as we can > be sure his ATV will fit on my trailer, I'll loan, more or less permanently, > my trailer to a friend that doesn't have one. My 14 ft trailer is one of the full width ones and as such, I doubt that it would be able to make it through the opening on the side of your house from what I've seen of the width of your trailer... It's wider than my XJ, possibly even wider than my pickup... For certain mission profiles, it works very well... If the mission profile includes being compact, it doesn't work that well though... <grin> > Yep. The Cherokee is 4WD, which the only reason I kept it when I bought the > Z-28. It needs a substantial lift and much bigger tires to go offroad down > here, but it worked fine for rock and dirt roads as well as slick boat > ramps, for a long time. It became pretty redundant when I got the Durango, > which has a lot to do with why it's not running now. When there is no real bottom to the stuff, 4WD doesn't get you much... You need flotation... For the dirt road with occasional muddy spots, what you have would work great... Well, you might want to put a more aggressive tread on it instead of the factory all-terrain (what a misnomer) tires... Unless you're willing to go the full swamp buggy route, a couple inches of lift on an XJ is not going to help you all that much in the swamps down there... It'll let you get your ATVs closer to the really messy stuff though... <grin> > Generally speaking, if you can go there with a car > or truck at all, you can do it with 2WD. A limited slip rear differential in 2WD will get you a lot of places that you have no business being without a winch... > Small window units are light enough for me to handle them unassisted. Even > the relatively larger window unit I have to cool our bedroom when I have to > rely on generator power, is light enough I can handle it alone if necessary. It's not so much the weight, but picking them up without damaging anything else since the cover with all the grill fins is a bit flimsy... On my 8000 BTU unit, the grill fins will also cut into your hands while picking it up... If I had to carry it much, I would prefer to have some sort of frame around it so that I'm not having to either pick up on the sharp edges or on the window gap sliders... There's also the issue of picking it up correctly... I was always under them impression that if you inverted the compressor or tilted it severely, you should way quite awhile before starting the unit... I've heard this often, but I've never seen it in print, so perhaps it's just an old HVAC legend... > Initially, I figured I'd just sit it on the tailgate and let it blow into > the tent through the mosquito netting. I don't need much of an > angle to get it to drain properly. Handles, though, aren't a bad idea. If you're talking about one of the truck bed tents, you might want to check the angle of your truck bed... On mine, the springs are such that the front of the bed is lower than the rear of the bed unless there is a lot of weight in it... This was especially noticeable when the cover is off the bed and I see the water collecting in the bed liner... You don't want the condensate to be flowing towards the front of the unit... If the unit is level, you will find yourself getting rather wet when you pick it up to move it since all that water that has collected will now be on you... Personal experience, of course... I suspect that the unit might rust out a bit quicker if you don't allow it to properly drain also... > Some of them. Great minds think alike, I guess... > I was talking about a single solution that worked for every mission > profile... I know, but how much fun is that. > Throwing money at the problem is what we do now... It's the reason you > have > multiple vehicles and multiple boats... Actually, laziness is the reason I have multiple vehicles and boats. I'm too lazy to do anything to dispose of them. Boats are the lesser problem. It doesn't take long before they effectively dispose of themselves, or at least make it clear that they need to be transported to the local landfill. > As you're well aware, you gotta have > a place to store all your toys... That's where it starts getting [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > your > trailer from your back yard to the street... I'm considering a solution to this, effectively throwing money at it again. A small house on a lot big enough for a large barn. Think how many more toys I could have then. He who dies with the most toys, wins. I'm a competitor. > My 14 ft trailer is one of the full width ones and as such, I doubt that > it > would be able to make it through the opening on the side of your house > from > what I've seen of the width of your trailer... Let me remove your doubt. Unless you deliberately built it narrow enough yourself, it won't fit. I have 6 feet clearance on the side with the gate. I have more in the back of the east side of the house, but the AC unit blocks access from the front. Who would have guessed that a city with horses on the seal and a hitching post at the McDonalds, would have zoning laws against trailers in the front yard. My trailer is narrow enough for the job. The problem is swing. As you enter the back yard, you have to turn to the right. If I'm to avoid buying my neighbor some new shadowbox fence, I have to make that turn very gently. The a.s end of the shorter trailer doesn't swing as far, making it a lot easier to use. > When there is no real bottom to the stuff, 4WD doesn't get you much... You > need flotation... For the dirt road with occasional muddy spots, what you > have would work great... Well, you might want to put a more aggressive [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > It'll let you get your ATVs closer to the really messy stuff though... > <grin> Yes and yes. My previous 4WD, which I purchased and used in Jacksonville, had 32 inch Power Cats, a tire with an aggressive enough tread pattern to make them less than smooth on pavement. They worked great in even the softest sand and in the kind of mud I encountered in N. Florida. The only time I ever got stuck was due to logs at the bottom of the water filled ditch I was crossing. Both the front and rear tires were between slick logs. All it took to get free was to use the come along to pull the tires firmly enough against the logs to give them the traction to start over them. If I'd known the logs were there, I could have avoided the problem easily enough by angling my approach. > A limited slip rear differential in 2WD will get you a lot of places that > you have no business being without a winch... Both Durangos have that. I'm not sure about the pickup. I'll have to look at the paperwork. The Z, of course, has positraction. > I was always under them impression that if you inverted the > compressor or tilted it severely, you should way quite awhile before > starting the unit... I've heard this often, but I've never seen it in > print, > so perhaps it's just an old HVAC legend... I don't know about AC units, but I've been told that about refrigerators. I presume the issue is the same. > If you're talking about one of the truck bed tents, you might want to > check [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > of course... I suspect that the unit might rust out a bit quicker if you > don't allow it to properly drain also... Good point. I had planned to shim the front to make sure the rear of the unit is the lowest point. Not only is the rear of the bed higher than the front, although not much, I can't guarantee that the lay of the land under the truck will be perfect either. > Great minds think alike, I guess... Sometimes. Lee ________________________________ It is useless for sheep to pass resolutions in favor of vegetarianism while wolves remain of a different opinion. WILLIAM RALPH INGE, D. D. 1860-1954 > I know, but how much fun is that. Quite frankly, it's an exercise in futility... But that doesn't mean we don't try, unfortunately... > I'm considering a solution to this, effectively throwing money at it again. > A small house on a lot big enough for a large barn. Think how many more > toys I could have then. He who dies with the most toys, wins. I'm a > competitor. After Kaitlyn gets out of high school, I'm planning on us moving somewhere without a home owner's association so that I can basically do whatever I want with my own property... I've gone through so much trouble with the HOA Nazis just trying to enlarge my detached garage and putting a workshop on the back of it that I've basically given up on it... They only review submittals once a month and you have to have the submittal in to them by a particular date, but their response takes until past that date to get back to you, thus it works out quite often to be two months between submittals... They keep coming up with new things that they have issues with even if they are not in the architectual guidelines... > Let me remove your doubt. Unless you deliberately built it narrow enough > yourself, it won't fit. I have 6 feet clearance on the side with the gate. Sounds like a boat trailer modified into a utility trailer would be about the most that you could fit through there... Just the bed part of my trailer is 7 ft, IIRC and then add to two fenders and tires on top of that... I've never tried it, but I suspect that I could probably carry 4 ATVs in my trailer... > My trailer is narrow enough for the job. The problem is swing. As you > enter the back yard, you have to turn to the right. If I'm to avoid buying > my neighbor some new shadowbox fence, I have to make that turn very > gently. The a.s end of the shorter trailer doesn't swing as far, making it > a lot easier to use. Sometimes you have to resort to just picking up the trailer and moving it by hand... Sometimes when I'm backing up my boat trailer without the boat on it, I have to get out and straighten it up by hand... It's not that I can't back a trailer, but I can't see the damn thing since it is completely blocked by the tailgate of my truck... I probably should put some of those guides on the end of the trailer near the lights so that I can actually see what I'm backing up... With the boat on it, I don't have a problem since I can see the boat... > Both Durangos have that. I'm not sure about the pickup. I'll have to look > at the paperwork. The Z, of course, has positraction. Not that you're going to be taking the Z offroad... <grin> My XJ does not have it, but most of the time when I need it, I also need the 4WD, so it's not as much of an issue... The Dodge QuadCab does have it in addition to 4WD... I was down at the beach around the beginning of the summer and was pulling a guy out who had taken his street truck into the sand... Most Texas beaches have hard packed sand that a 2WD vehicle can easily drive across... Sometimes you see thick areas of sand that are not packed... You should avoid these with 2WD vehicles... He had buried himself pretty good... I tried pulling initially, but ended up with all 4 of my wheels just digging me a spot in the sand... Ended up using a snatch strap and yanked him out easily enough... > I don't know about AC units, but I've been told that about refrigerators. I > presume the issue is the same. As such, I would prefer to keep them oriented in the proper direction and having a frame with something easier to grab might be worthwhile, especially if I was using it for going camping... > Good point. I had planned to shim the front to make sure the rear of the > unit is the lowest point. Not only is the rear of the bed higher than the > front, although not much, I can't guarantee that the lay of the land under > the truck will be perfect either. If I was going to be camping in the bed of my pickup and I wanted the tent air-conditioned, I would probably consider designing a custom enclosure that would attach to the window unit air-conditioner frame and still allow a normal doorway and entry flap... Perhaps mount some snaps on the canvas and the air-conditioner frame so that it would provide a more airtight seal and thus you would be getting all of the cold air into the tent instead of some of it not making it through the mesh screen... That would also allow you to have the air intake coming from the air in the tent and not the outside air, thus giving you a bit cooler environment... With as many shops that specialize in the boat awnings and cockpit enclosures around where you're at, it shouldn't be that difficult to find someone who could do it for you if you're not that handy with a sewing machine... > Sounds like a boat trailer modified into a utility trailer would be about > the most that you could fit through there... I purchased the axle, hugs, springs and spring hangers, wheels, tires and hitch. I built everything else from 1/4 inch steel angle iron and expanded metal. It's a true home made trailer. It's also only the second thing I ever welded. The first was a welding table suggested by the welding books I learned from. > Sometimes you have to resort to just picking up the trailer and moving it > by > hand... You might be able to. I can't. I don't recall the actual weight, but it's not light. > It's not that I can't back a trailer, but I can't see the damn thing since > it is completely > blocked by the tailgate of my truck... Put the tailgate down. I have to open the tailgate on the Durangos to back either of my boat trailers down the ramp. Originally, it was to see the trailer. Both now have PVC pipe guides that I can see whether the tailgate is open or shut, but I still need to open it to see the sides of the ramp. > I probably should put some of those guides on the end of the trailer near > the lights so that I can actually see > what I'm backing up... With the boat on it, I don't have a problem since I > can see the boat... Put the lights on the guides and cut down on the number of times you have to replace them. > Not that you're going to be taking the Z offroad... <grin> I might take it off the road, but it's a log more likely to be because I hit a bump in the road than because I'm headed for mud. > If I was going to be camping in the bed of my pickup and I wanted the tent > air-conditioned, I would probably consider designing a custom enclosure [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > at, it shouldn't be that difficult to find someone who could do it for you > if you're not that handy with a sewing machine... I could probably do that. I have to be careful how fancy I get. I bought the truck to put one of the ATVs in. That means anything else that goes in there has to fit around the ATV or go in only after it's out. I could build a small travel trailer easily enough, but then I have no place to put the second ATV. Interestingly, I've seen an ATV carrier designed to fit in the bed of a pickup, but carry the ATVs sideways, across the bed. While it would probably make it a bit harder to get the ATVs on the truck, it would also free me up to tow something else, a pop up camper, for example. The rack has the added advantage of leaving the space in the bed free for other stuff. It's pretty cool. Here's a site for one of them. http://www.monsterhauler.com/ . Lee > Put the tailgate down. Nawh, the bed cover on the truck will still block my view... Come to think of it, I wouldn't be surprised that even without the bed cover, I still wouldn't be able to see the trailer since it sits so low and there is so much of a distance between the front seat and the rear window on the QuadCab... > I have to open the tailgate on the Durangos to back > either of my boat trailers down the ramp. I've had to so that on my XJ sometimes also... It's not quite as bad as the truck though since the XJ is not so wide and long that it completely hides the trailer... > Put the lights on the guides and cut down on the number of times you have to > replace them. Actually, I've *never* had to replace them... I'm not all the diligent about unplugging the lights before backing into the water either... I have to suspect that I lucked out and have fairly waterproof tail lights... > I could probably do that. I have to be careful how fancy I get. I bought > the truck to put one of the ATVs in. That means anything else that goes in [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Interestingly, I've seen an ATV carrier designed to fit in the bed of a > pickup, but carry the ATVs sideways, across the bed. Yeah, that's the one that I showed you the link of when I was down there last time for DWG-II... As you probably remember, the design looked easy enough that you could build it yourself... If I was trying to do what you're doing, I would build that sort of platform so that I could still have storage space under it for the generator and air-conditioner and then rig up a tent that would fit on the platform that is over the side walls of the truck bed... Hell, if you wanted to get fancy, you could cut some vent holes in the bottom of the platform and have the air-conditioner intake coming from one hole and the cool air exiting another hole... > It's pretty cool. Here's a site for one of them. > http://www.monsterhauler.com Yep, that the one that I showed you... I had originally stumbled across it while looking for a truck bed cover that was made out of aluminum diamondplate... I was about to make my own out of 1/8" aluminum diamondplate when I stumbled across my current cover at a fairly reasonable price... >> Put the tailgate down. > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >truck though since the XJ is not so wide and long that it completely hides >the trailer... I have a friend who put a video camera on the back of his truck (and a monitor near the dash) exactly for that reason. He still uses the side mirrors (you can't really see to back up with the camera) to get a general view of how to back up, but the camera lets him see what's going on from another perspective. You can get the whole kit from places like JC Whitney and Sporty's and stuff. My brother put one on his wife's brand new truck. She promptly backed into something. But she could *see* exactly what she backed into. Galen Hekhuis NpD, JFR, GWA ghekhuis@earthlink.net Guns don't kill people, religions do > My brother put one on his wife's brand new truck. > She promptly backed into something. But she > could *see* exactly what she backed into. Whereas previously should would have just complained that something was wrong with the vehicle since it would stop backing up no matter how much she kept trying to back up... >> My brother put one on his wife's brand new truck. >> She promptly backed into something. But she [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >wrong with the vehicle since it would stop backing up no matter how much she >kept trying to back up... Actually, that's pretty close to the truth. Someone asked why my brother's truck had a crease halfway down the passenger side. He explained that when the truck was new, it belonged to his wife, who right away drove up close to something with it, then kept on gettin' it until the truck quit running. They got the truck untangled and then about a year later my brother got the old truck and she got a newer, bigger diesel truck. The truck wasn't even a week old before my brother's wife again drove real close to something. But being a more powerful truck, the crease now goes all the way down the side on the new truck. Bless her heart. Galen Hekhuis NpD, JFR, GWA ghekhuis@earthlink.net Guns don't kill people, religions do >>Sounds like a boat trailer modified into a utility trailer would be about >>the most that you could fit through there... [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > trailer. Both now have PVC pipe guides that I can see whether the tailgate > is open or shut, but I still need to open it to see the sides of the ramp. Your truck came equipped with side mirrors, right? They can be useful when backing a trailer...... You'll need some practice, but it works better than using the rearview mirror. I almost never use the center mirror when backing a trailer. > Lee Signature“TANSTAAFL” “All I can say is there had better be some cheese at the end of this maze……” ____________________________________________________________________________ "A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for them; The simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences." - Proverbs 22:3 > Your truck came equipped with side mirrors, right? > They can be useful when backing a trailer...... > You'll need some practice, but it works better than using the rearview > mirror. > I almost never use the center mirror when backing a trailer. It's not like I'm new to this stuff. The side mirrors work fine for the 15 foot boat and the 14 foot ATV trailer. They're not worth a damn for the inflatable trailer or the short ATV trailer. In both cases, the trailers are narrower than the truck, or Durango. By the time they appear in any mirror, you've already gone too far astray. As I know that you know, a short trailer jacknifes in a hearbeat. Longer ones are much easier to navigte. Lee > It's not like I'm new to this stuff. The side mirrors work fine for the 15 > foot boat and the 14 foot ATV trailer. They're not worth a damn for the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > short trailer jacknifes in a hearbeat. Longer ones are much easier to > navigte. If you want some fun backing up something, try backing up a fully castering nosewheel aircraft a hangar when it is hooked to rear trailer hitch of a vehicle... Hell, even hooked to the rear trailer hitch on an ATV is a pain in the butt... I eventually put a trailer hitch on the front of my ATV just for it... It's not anything like backing up a normal trailer... > If you want some fun backing up something, try backing up a fully > castering [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > just > for it... It's not anything like backing up a normal trailer... Which is why the push out tugs push from the front. Lee > Which is why the push out tugs push from the front. Well, with an ATV, it's useful to be able to hook the plane up both ways... If I'm taking it down to the wash area, it's nice to be able to see where I'm going instead of having to back up the entire way... Of course, the one advantage of backing up the entire way is that you won't be tempted to tow it too fast... I did that *once*... It can definitely lead to a case of the tail wagging the dog... A bit of an "oh sh.t" factor there... >>Your truck came equipped with side mirrors, right? >>They can be useful when backing a trailer...... [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Lee Sorry, I thought that you said that you couldn't pick them up. But then you say that they are too short and too narrow to see when backing.... Are they made of lead? And yes, I am aware that a short trailer is more of a challenge to back. Signature“TANSTAAFL” “All I can say is there had better be some cheese at the end of this maze……” ____________________________________________________________________________ "A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for them; The simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences." - Proverbs 22:3 > Your truck came equipped with side mirrors, right? > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > I almost never use the center mirror when backing a trailer. Depends upon the size of the truck and size of the trailer... By the time my trailer is visible in the side mirrors, it is nowhere close to lined up straight... > You might be able to. I can't. I don't recall the actual weight, but it's > not light. It's quite possible that you overbuilt it for the intended purpose of carrying a single ATV... I suspect that your ATV weighs less than my boat and I can easily pick up the trailer for my boat to straighten it out... Technically, I'm only picking up half the weight of the trailer since the other half is being supported by the trailer hitch... On the other hand, my utility trailer is not quite so easy to pick up... Then again, it is longer and easier to back up, so I don't need to pick it up... To make picking it up a bit more interesting, there is an angle iron edge on the rear, so it cuts into your hands... If I'm moving it around by hand, I'll usually have Grace or Kaitlyn sit on the rear of it to offset some of the weight on the tongue... Even with the added weight of them, it works out to be more maneuverable... > It's quite possible that you overbuilt it for the intended purpose of > carrying a single ATV... Of all the people to talk about overbuilding. 8^) In some respects, it is overbuilt in others, it isn't built well enough. Comparable trailers work just fine with 1/8 inch steel angle iron. Mine's made entirely of 1/4 inch steel. You live and learn. The tongue runs the length of the trailer, adding considerable weight. It's underbuilt, in only one respect. The cross members, all of them except the front and back ones, are 1/4 inch flat stock. I did that to facilitate the full length tongue. It was a mistake. They aren't rigid enough to keep the trailer from sagging a bit in the middle. I failed to take the fact that the springs attach to the outside while the weight is on the inside. The trailer's not bad, but it's not perfect. By the way, the trailer I built is for two ATVs. I bought my single ATV trailer and, as you suggest, I can lift the back of it pretty easily. Since it does not swing as far as the larger one does, however, I don't usually have to lift and move it over. > I suspect that your ATV weighs less than my boat and I can easily pick up > the trailer for my boat to straighten it out... Actually, my ATVs, two of them, may weight close to what your boat does. The big difference, however, is how they have to be constructed. Your boat only needs three points of contact. An ATV trailer, at a minimum, needs ramps along both sides. > I'm only picking up half the weight of the trailer since the other half is > being supported by the trailer hitch... I suspect you're mistaken. The bulk of the weight of a boat trailer is towards the back of the trailer. You're picking up the heavy end. The truck only has to support the light end. After having to carry the heavy end of my outboard while a friend carred the light end, trust me, it does make a difference. > On the other hand, my utility trailer is not quite so easy to pick up... My ATV trailer is built like a utility trailer. > Then again, it is longer and easier to back up, so I don't need to pick it > up... To control my trailer, I don't either. Remember, we're talking clearance and the amount the portion of the trailer behind the axle swings as you turn going forward. Because I have only inches to spare, literally, I have to make a very gradual turn away from the next door neighbor's fence. > To make picking it up a bit more interesting, there is an angle iron edge > on the rear, so it > cuts into your hands... See, under built. If you'd used 1/4 inch steel, it would not cut into your hands as much. Lee > >> I'll still be hanging around this forum whether or not any of you spend > >> $29.95, I dont give a crap, some of you are good people and I enjoy the [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > only slight rust on it? > ~Rick Mine's an 82 and there's more than just slight rust. >> >> I'll still be hanging around this forum whether or not any of you >> >> spend [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > Mine's an 82 and there's more than just slight rust. __ Actually I considered getting a conversion van. we have 2 jeeps, wrangler and cherokee. cherokee is for the dive geer hauling. ~Rick > __ > Actually I considered getting a conversion van. we have 2 jeeps, wrangler > and cherokee. > cherokee is for the dive geer hauling. why don't you just rent it with your super awesome discount card? :-) >> __ >> Actually I considered getting a conversion van. we have 2 jeeps, wrangler >> and cherokee. >> cherokee is for the dive geer hauling. >> > why don't you just rent it with your super awesome discount card? :-) ___ haha. your just jelaous casue you dont have one. ~Rick >> I'll still be hanging around this forum whether or not any of you spend >> $29.95, I dont give a crap, some of you are good people and I enjoy the [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Lee ___ this is weird. I just found your original response to my request on http://www.scubamonster.com which has your message saying how my "press release" was spam (which it was - sorry) But scubamonster.com pulls from this usenet, and it's not here...it's only on scubamonster.com. what gives? I hope I'm not missing any posts. ~Rick > this is weird. I just found your original response to my request on > http://www.scubamonster.com [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > on scubamonster.com. what gives? > I hope I'm not missing any posts. I haven't a clue. I use the newsreader in Outlook Express via Bellsouth.net. I simply told the reader to display all messages and sorted by e-mail address. I was looking for your first post well after you started other threads. I didn't have much trouble finding it. I did a Google Groups search to check to see if you were posting the same message in other forums. I didn't find any. Some newsreaders don't get all messages and most don't retain any messages for very long, particularly for groups as active as this one. Lee > Some newsreaders don't get all messages and most don't retain any messages > for very long, particularly for groups as active as this one. That must suck. I can read and reply to messages all the way back to 11/28/04 via my free Supernews hookup. I wonder what happens if I post in one of those threads. Could you read it? Maybe I'll reply to something you posted almost two years ago just to see. > I'll still be hanging around this forum whether or not any of you spend > $29.95, I dont give a crap, some of you are good people and I enjoy the > discussion. > If you have ideas that could help me line your pockets too, I'm open for > it and would be glad to help. Trust me, you got off light for the usual Rec.scuba welcome. We're glad to have you, and if we didn't like you, we'd just tell you. > After all as divers I think we are different from most folks and I would > be willing to help any diver. That, I can work with. > ~Rick >> I'll still be hanging around this forum whether or not any of you spend >> $29.95, I dont give a crap, some of you are good people and I enjoy the [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >> ~Rick ____ Cool - thanks / Rock-n-Roll Popeye! ~Rick > >> Of course feel free to sign up, but I'm really looking for non-candy > >> coated diver opinions of the site and the idea. [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > Thanks > ~Rick If you had said Marriott instead of Best Western, I'd have been interested. What I saw of the site looks fine. I'm going to guess that you don't have any dive shops in my area or I might have been somewhat more interested. >> >> Of course feel free to sign up, but I'm really looking for non-candy >> >> coated diver opinions of the site and the idea. [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] > might have been somewhat more > interested. - - - What area are you in? > >> >> Of course feel free to sign up, but I'm really looking for non-candy > >> >> coated diver opinions of the site and the idea. [quoted text clipped - 52 lines] > - - - > What area are you in? Midland, TX I think the right approach would be to offer it free for a year with an automatic renewal fee of $29.95 on the anniversary date if they didn't close it out before then. you need warm bodies to hold the cards to entice the shops to offer discounts. JMO Rob > I think the right approach would be to offer it free for a year with an > automatic renewal fee of $29.95 on the anniversary date if they didn't > close it out before then. you need warm bodies to hold the cards to entice > the shops to offer discounts. I'm a lousy marketer. That's one of the primry reasons I work for the government rather than in the private sector. I don't know if a one year freebie is the right way to sell the product or not. I do know, however, that SCUBA is a word of mouth industry. No matter what the adds say, no matter how many magazines it appears in, no matter how many groups it's posted in, nothing will sell anything scuba related as well, short and long term, as a large number of satisfied customers. On the other hand, an awful lot of the divers I know, are impulse buyers. I'm certainly one of them. When the urge hits, I can drop a grand or so on scuba equipment without regard for discounts or sales. Sometimes the urge hits because of a sale, but more often, it's something someone in a group like this said. Case in point is the brand new manifolded twinset sitting in my garage, attached to the aluminum plate I've had, but never used, since 1999, which still doesn't have a suitable wing to allow me to use it. It's Magilla's fault, or maybe Rack's. They both said words like Hydro Atlantic and Oriskany. Damn them. Bless them. Lee > I think the right approach would be to offer it free for a year with an > automatic renewal fee of $29.95 on the anniversary date if they didn't > close it out before then. you need warm bodies to hold the cards to entice > the shops to offer discounts. > JMO > Rob Hmm, perhaps. I think starting next week I'm going to work on more dive shops first. There is a per card cost to make the cards, and since I didnt buy the card printer maching they are more costly to print. So I don't know if free is an option yet. Maybe drawings, contests like was suggested. Thanks ~Rick > There is a per card cost to make the cards, and since I didnt buy the card > printer maching they are more costly to print. So I don't know if free is > an option yet. Free is never an option with marketing, either, unless you spam newsgroups and e-mail (you did say you were going to spam dive shops next?). If you think it's a viable business plan, put some money into it. If you can't even cough up a nickle of your own to support your project, why do you think anyone else would pay $29.95? >> There is a per card cost to make the cards, and since I didnt buy the >> card printer maching they are more costly to print. So I don't know if [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > can't even cough up a nickle of your own to support your project, why do > you think anyone else would pay $29.95? ___ Believe me we've been spending many nickels on it. we'll make it work. I already spammed the dive shops. Actually we do better the old fashioned way by calling them and visiting them. ~Rick >>> There is a per card cost to make the cards, and since I didnt buy the >>> card printer maching they are more costly to print. So I don't know if [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > way by calling them and visiting them. > ~Rick I really doubt you could ever make a living with this idea. I'd place it a akin to trying to sell AMWAY or HERBAL LIFE. good luck. >>>> There is a per card cost to make the cards, and since I didnt buy the >>>> card printer maching they are more costly to print. So I don't know if [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > I really doubt you could ever make a living with this idea. I'd place it a > akin to trying to sell AMWAY or HERBAL LIFE. good luck. ___ Yea thanks for your words of encouragement. Worse businesses ideas have done better. I dont see the Amway/Herba Life similarities but... (the founders of those businesses are billionaires by the way) But your right, it's a longshot, longshot. ~Rick >>>>There is a per card cost to make the cards, and since I didnt buy the >>>>card printer maching they are more costly to print. So I don't know if [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > I really doubt you could ever make a living with this idea. I'd place it a > akin to trying to sell AMWAY or HERBAL LIFE. good luck. THe guy I spoke t said if I started with Amway I could retire in a few years..... Signature“TANSTAAFL” “All I can say is there had better be some cheese at the end of this maze……” ____________________________________________________________________________ "A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for them; The simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences." - Proverbs 22:3 |
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