Scuba Forum / General / September 2006
Dive Shop ethics - nitrox tanks - am I just ignorant?
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Janet - 15 Sep 2006 02:35 GMT My husband is a new diver, and I admit I am not that experienced. A local dive shop is super cheap, which our budget finds irresistable. But we've had several problems with their "advice" on purchases and he wasn't very satisfied with his instruction through them.
We switched to another shop near our usual dive spots, but recently planned a camp weekend far away, and so rented a couple of steel tanks from the first shop. When we arrived at the site and inspected our gear, I noticed that the tanks had a small, round sticker that said, "Nitrox Only," on the valve.
We're not certified in Nitrox, nor have I seen this type of sticker before. Our temptation was to do it anyway, but neither of us felt safe and weren't sure if a) our regulators would be damaged, or b) how long you could stay underwater vis a vis compressed air (dive tables).
The dive got nixed. Argh!
When my husband returned the tanks, he was told that they did, in fact, contain compressed air. That the nitrox tanks had NITROX emblazoned across the tank, which ours didn't. That in 300 rentals (per tank), no one else had made this mistake.
OK, so am I ignorant? I'm feeling pretty burned. We wanted to be safe. I'm bummed on the shop, but is this legitimate?
Thanks for advice from those wiser than me!
Popeye - 15 Sep 2006 03:22 GMT > My husband is a new diver, and I admit I am not that experienced. A > local dive shop is super cheap, which our budget finds irresistable. [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > Thanks for advice from those wiser than me! From what I understand, it was your inexperience that was the problem, but it was an odd case.
Please understand that you did the -exact- -correct- thing-
-Never- dive a tank you're unsure of, for -any- reason.
All tanks have a "VIP" sticker, for annual inspection.
-Some- shops use one kind of sticker for "air" tanks, and another for nitrox tanks, but some use one sticker for both.
It should have hole punch options for the type of gas, as well as a month and year date.
From what you described, especially if a date was on the sticker, I assume you confused an air VIP with a nitrox VIP.
You then erred to the side of caution, the smart thing to do.
I'm proud you inspected the tanks that closely.
Nitrox tanks are supposed to have large green and yellow stickers, which I assume you've seen at this point.
If you took a nitrox class, it would avail you to more information, and a solution for this problem.
I highly recommend it.
Nitrox classes are interesting and cheap, and can have a greatly positive impact on your diving.
SpringDiver - 15 Sep 2006 13:17 GMT >> My husband is a new diver, and I admit I am not that experienced. A >> local dive shop is super cheap, which our budget finds irresistable. [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] > Nitrox classes are interesting and cheap, and can have a greatly positive >impact on your diving. Sounds great Popeye. In addition and since Janet says the dive shop is "cheap", I'd take a gander a their pumping facilities.
SD
Lee Bell - 15 Sep 2006 13:19 GMT Janet wrote
I'll comment on your question and on Popeye's response.
> We switched to another shop near our usual dive spots, but recently > planned a camp weekend far away, and so rented a couple of steel tanks > from the first shop. When we arrived at the site and inspected our > gear, I noticed that the tanks had a small, round sticker that said, > "Nitrox Only," on the valve. The only mistake I see appears in the paragraph above. You rented gear, but did not inspect it until you reached a remote dive site. This is a mistake many of us have made and learned the hard way, as you did. The time to inspect and check your gear is while you can still do something about it. In the case of rental gear, that inspection should happen in the shop you rent it from. Look the tank over, check the pressure, take a couple of breaths from each of the second stages, confirm that the SPG is working, that it starts at zero and that what it reads when fully on makes sense. Check to make sure the inflator is not leaking either into the air or into the BCD. If there's something wrong, or something you don't understand, you have a chance to get an explanation or a fix. Had you done your inspection at the shop, you would have been able to do your dive as planned.
> We're not certified in Nitrox, nor have I seen this type of sticker > before. Our temptation was to do it anyway, but neither of us felt safe > and weren't sure if a) our regulators would be damaged, or b) how long > you could stay underwater vis a vis compressed air (dive tables). Like Popeye said, you did the right thing. The general rule is, if you don't know what you're breathing or you don't know how to breathe it safely, don't breathe it. Like Popeye, I highly recommend a nitrox course. Without getting into the details, most divers find advantages to nitrox that makes it worth the normally higher cost. Even if you don't, and not everyone does, the course will teach you things you should know about how the gas side of diving works. My nitrox course, as courses go, was awful, and it was still one of the best post certification courses I've taken, and I've taken more than a few in my 44 years of active diving.
I think I've seen the sticker you're talking about. If, as you said, it's a round sticker on the valve rather than the tank, it's not what Popeye assumed. They're not common. All they are there for is to warn anyone that fills the tank that it has been cleaned of flamible contaminants to the point where it's safe to introduce pure oxygen into the tank at high pressures. One of several ways nitrox tanks are filled is called "partial pressure blending". Pure oxygen is introduced first, followed by air. High pressures of oxygen and a flamable contaminant are a potentially dangerous combination. Shops that don't fill nitrox don't always filter their gas to nitrox standards, increasing the risk that some contaminant will be introduced into a tank that will later be partially filled with pure oxygen. The sticker really doesn't mean much. As Popeye noted, there's usually a second sticker, an inspection sticker, that will normally indicate whether the tank is expected to be kept "nitrox clean." It will be pretty clear that the tank was been certified to be clean to O2 standards when inspected. Inspections in the US are annual. Even this sticker doesn't say anything about what's been in the tank since the inspection.
Popeye mentioned that nitrox tanks should have a large nitrox band. That certainly used to be the case. It hasn't been for quite some time. My tanks, for example, are all cleaned for nitrox. Only two of them have the bands Popeye is talking about and they only have them because those two went on a trip where I was not sure the fill technician would remember what to put in my tanks without the reminder. My tanks remain clean because I make sure they do. I pay attention to where I take them for fills and, even when they are filled with 21% (air), I ensure that the air is filtered to nitrox standards. My tanks are almost never partial pressure filled, but they can be.
Here's a bit of extra information for you. Techncially, nitrox is any mixture that is nothing more than nitrogen, oxygen and trace gases. Air is nitrox 21 (21% oxygen). In common use, we usually mean a mix that has more than 21% oxygen. The oxygen replaces some of the nitrogen, allowing a longer no decompression time at the same depth than you would get with air. Contrary to what the untrained often think, nitrox is not a deep gas. Above certain pressures, oxygen becomes toxic. The higher the percentage of oxygen, the shallower the maximum operating depth (MOD) is. Without getting technical, the MOD for air is normally considered to be about 187 feet (a partial pressure of 1.4). That's not taught in most entry level courses because it's well beyond what entry level divers are expected to do. Thanks to a higher percentage of oxygen, nitrox has a shallower MOD. The standard blends, 32% and 36%, have a MOD of 111 and 95 feet respectively. Both are within depths many divers see. If you don't know about toxicity, you don't know to stay shallow enough to avoid it.
Normal recreational nitrox mixes, anything under 40% oxygen, won't hurt your equipment. Some divers, including me and several others here, occasionally use mixes with considerably higher O2 percentges, 50 to 100%, for decompression purposes. These gases have a much shallower MOD and are not normally recommended until the diver has training well beyond what most recreational divers do. At these kinds of pressures, the contamination issue extends to the regulator too. People that dive mixes of this type usually dedicate a separate regulator for it and scupulously keep it clean.
>> When my husband returned the tanks, he was told that they did, in fact, >> contain compressed air. That the nitrox tanks had NITROX emblazoned >> across the tank, which ours didn't. That in 300 rentals (per tank), no >> one else had made this mistake. Nitrox tanks from that shop may have had NITROX across the tank, but not everybody's tanks do. While it's quite possible that nobody ever noticed before, but that does not change the fact that the stickers should not have been on tanks that did not contain nitrox. The fact that 300 divers didn't notice the sticker speaks poorly for the 300 divers, not for the two that did notice them. The shop's response was bull.
>> OK, so am I ignorant? Ignorance can be cured. You've taken the first step.
> I'm feeling pretty burned. Both you and the shop made a mistake. Your mistake was waiting until you reached the diveshop to look. The shop's mistake was leaving the stickers on tanks that did not contain nitrox. Personally, I think they should have refunded your money. If they didn't, I would have opened the valves on the tank to drain the gas that I had paid for and walked out the door, never to return. They would be royally pissed. That, of course, is the idea.
> We wanted to be safe. I'm bummed on the shop, but is this legitimate? You should be safe and you should be bummed in general. This is not your first bad encounter with the same shop. You should consider whether they'll ever get your business again. You should also name the shop here. Our only defense against bad service is the word of mouth advertising we use to identify the good and bad ones. They gave bad service and deserve to be associated with it.
>> Thanks for advice from those wiser than me! Not wiser, just better education and more experienced.
> From what I understand, it was your inexperience that was the problem, > but it was an odd case.> Please understand that you did > the -exact- -correct- thing- The shop was wrong first. The divers were wrong worse.
> -Never- dive a tank you're unsure of, for -any- reason. Absolutely.
> All tanks have a "VIP" sticker, for annual inspection. > -Some- shops use one kind of sticker for "air" tanks, and another for > nitrox tanks, but some use one sticker for both. > It should have hole punch options for the type of gas, as well as a month > and year date. Yes
> From what you described, especially if a date was on the sticker, I assume > you confused an air VIP with a nitrox VIP. Inspection stickers (VIP) aren't normally on the valve.
> You then erred to the side of caution, the smart thing to do. Yep.
> I'm proud you inspected the tanks that closely. I'm not sure why Popeye's proud 8^), but you should be.
> Nitrox tanks are supposed to have large green and yellow stickers, which > I assume you've seen at this point. This used to be the standard. These dys, some do, some don't. There's no "supposed to" anymore. Even if it does, the sticker is not a reliable way to know what's in the tank. If there's a question, any question at all, the gas should be tested in the presence of, if not by, the person who will breathe it.
> If you took a nitrox class, it would avail you to more information, and a > solution for this problem. I highly recommend it. > Nitrox classes are interesting and cheap, and can have a greatly positive > impact on your diving. I could not agree more.
Lee
Popeye - 15 Sep 2006 14:38 GMT >> From what you described, especially if a date was on the sticker, I >> assume you confused an air VIP with a nitrox VIP. > > Inspection stickers (VIP) aren't normally on the valve. I'm not used to seeing -any- stickers on the valve.
>> Nitrox tanks are supposed to have large green and yellow stickers, which >> I assume you've seen at this point. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > all, the gas should be tested in the presence of, if not by, the person > who will breathe it. It's still the standard- some people don't comply.
Unless you've seen information that I haven't, -everyone- is "supposed to".
I can't imagine a dive shop that doesn't, at least on rental tanks.
As far as you not having them on yours, that's a personal choice, but I don't see how you get them filled. :-)
Lee Bell - 15 Sep 2006 15:12 GMT > I'm not used to seeing -any- stickers on the valve. I've seen some. It's not common. She specifically said they were on the valves, which is why I don't think they were inspection stickers.
> It's still the standard- some people don't comply. It's not standard here.
> I can't imagine a dive shop that doesn't, at least on rental tanks. Fill Express. Brownies Southport.
> As far as you not having them on yours, that's a personal choice, but I > don't see how you get them filled. :-) No problem at all. All of my tanks have the O2 clean stickers which, so far, has been fine for those that partial pressure fill including Brownies, Silent World, Florida Reef Divers (when Jim owned the shop) and Lady Cyana (when it was open). Shops that bank nitrox or use membrane systems, including Spencer Slate's, Fill Express and the liveaboard boat I use for my Tortugas trips, don't seem to care one way or the other. They fill any tank for anyone they're comfortable knows what they're doing, nitrox clean or not.
I used to have bands on my tanks, but Fill Express removes all stickers every time they visual a tank. They had a problem with hidden corrosion on one tank and don't want to take a chance on missing it on another. They used to keep the corroded tank around to show why they take the stickers off. It's not so much a choice not to have them as it is a choice not to pay to replace them every year if I don't have to, and I don't have to. I buy two sets a year specifically for the Tortugas trip, because I don't trust the deck monkey to consistently remember which tanks are to be filled with nitrox and which are to be filled with air. He bent me once that way. I don't want it to happen again.
Lee
Al Wells - 15 Sep 2006 16:17 GMT > I'm not used to seeing -any- stickers on the valve. This is what she's talking about - I think Thermo made or makes some like this. it means that the valve was originally supplied clean and with apppropriate soft parts.
http://tinyurl.com/k3h8n
Popeye - 15 Sep 2006 17:47 GMT >> I'm not used to seeing -any- stickers on the valve. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > http://tinyurl.com/k3h8n Thanks!
Janet - 15 Sep 2006 18:18 GMT That's exactly the sticker we saw.
Thank you so much, everyone, for your thoughts on this. We will follow up with Nitrox courses from our beloved shop, not the cheap one.
The cheap one, after making us feel pretty small, did offer free future tanks, but no refund (despite our request). After so many hassles, I'd rather write it off and never return.
What a great group this is! See you in the water.
> > I'm not used to seeing -any- stickers on the valve. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > http://tinyurl.com/k3h8n Scott - 15 Sep 2006 18:59 GMT > That's exactly the sticker we saw. > > Thank you so much, everyone, for your thoughts on this. We will follow > up with Nitrox courses from our beloved shop, not the cheap one. Good plan.
> The cheap one, after making us feel pretty small, did offer free future > tanks, but no refund (despite our request). After so many hassles, I'd > rather write it off and never return. That's how you vote with your feet and wallet.
> What a great group this is! See you in the water. Lee Bell - 16 Sep 2006 12:04 GMT >> The cheap one, after making us feel pretty small, did offer free future >> tanks, but no refund (despite our request). After so many hassles, I'd >> rather write it off and never return.
> That's how you vote with your feet and wallet. That's one way. The other is to reveal the name of the shop. This is a self regulated industry, which requires that both the providers and the users of services participate in the regulatory process.
Lee
Dillon Pyron - 17 Sep 2006 11:57 GMT >That's exactly the sticker we saw. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >tanks, but no refund (despite our request). After so many hassles, I'd >rather write it off and never return. Name names. We don't know where you are, one of us might be close by or driving through and knowing of a good shop vs a bad one is always helpful.
>What a great group this is! See you in the water. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> >> http://tinyurl.com/k3h8n  Signature dillon
If you can't figure out how to unmunge my address, email me and I'll explain it.
Art Greenberg - 16 Sep 2006 00:49 GMT > As far as you not having them on yours, that's a personal choice, but I > don't see how you get them filled. :-) I see the smiley face, but I don't get the joke.
I used to keep those pretty yellow and green bands on all of my EAN cylinders.
Until it closed, I heavily patronized a shop that had banked 32, 36, and 40. So I didn't need to have oxygen service cylinders. I kept two that were not, just so I could get guilt-free fills anywhere for dives in the local "lake".
Until, that is, one day I needed a quick air fill, and one numbskull dive shop OWNER, whose shop did not offer nitrox fills, refused to fill my cylinders because they were "clearly nitrox only". I politely pointed to the inspection stickers that did -not- have the "oxygen service" box knocked out. He was unimpressed. He insisted that I remove the bands, or he would not fill my cylinders. So I did. And I have never been back to that shop. Too bad, its the one closest to my house.
 Signature Art Greenberg artg at eclipse dot net
Popeye - 16 Sep 2006 03:26 GMT >> As far as you not having them on yours, that's a personal choice, but >> I [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > the > one closest to my house. He was, simply, correct.
I'm sure you don't want to hear this, but he should have insisted on a complete VIP.
If I didn't know you, -I- wouldn't have filled them.
If you or Lee came into where I was working, I'd fill your tanks because I know you both to be accomplished divers, aware of the consequences.
I'm just as responsible for those tanks as you are, moreso especially, after you're dead, even from a completely unrelated cause.
A rabble rouser from some elite dive organization will venture that the tanks were improperly filled, and your survivors will sue the dickens out of me.
I learned a certain standard from IANTD as a certified blender.
Your tanks were incorrectly VIP'd by industry standard (unless it's changed, and it does) in at least two ways.
It would be a reasonable assumption that they weren't VIP'd at all.
My first post here in '98 was about some dill-hole that made VIP stickers out of masking tape, and blew a cork when I wouldn't fill his tanks.
He -assured- me he had thoroughly inspected them.
What's the difference between his argument, yours, and Lees?
Either there's a standard, or there isn't.
For all the caterwauling we do about OW standards, I find -this- conversation quite interesting.
I own 9 tanks, and keep them completely in standard, including annual cleaning, viton o-rings, and tech lube.
 Signature Popeye You can get much further with a kind word and a gun than you can with a kind word alone. -Capone www.finalprotectivefire.com
Lee Bell - 16 Sep 2006 12:01 GMT > He was, simply, correct. I'm sure you don't want to hear this, but he > should have insisted on a complete VIP. Cite?
> A rabble rouser from some elite dive organization will venture that the > tanks were improperly filled, and your survivors will sue the dickens out > of me. They'll do that no matter what.
> It would be a reasonable assumption that they weren't VIP'd at all. Since the sticker says they were, why would that be a reasonable assumption?
> What's the difference between his argument, yours, and Lees? My stickers are real?
I don't have an argument. There is an industry standard for annual visuals and 5 year hydros. The standard includes placement of a sticker that indicates when and what was done. There isn't a standard for nitrox bands. It's imposed by some, but not even a consideration by others. There's nothing standard about it . . . unless, of course, you've got a recent cite that says otherwise.
> Either there's a standard, or there isn't. There isn't. The shop you work for, the agency you trained with, and others, each have their own rules, but there are no standards, at least not for recreational diving.
> For all the caterwauling we do about OW standards, I find -this- > conversation quite interesting. We don't do any caterwauling about OW standards. We caterwaul about the quality of service. There's a difference.
> I own 9 tanks, and keep them completely in standard, including annual > cleaning, viton o-rings, and tech lube. I own more than that. What you describe isn't what I'd call standard, but it's how I maintain mine as well. In addition to the things you describe, mine all have Visual stickers from a recognized source (I'd quote it, but I'm not going out to the garage right now to see what it says) that say they are cleaned for O2 service. Even that's not standard. Mine were cleaned considerably better than, say, Brownies would have done. Simple Green isn't enough for Fill Express. What mine don't have, and your description doesn't say yours have either, is a yellow and green sticker that says nitrox.
Lee
Popeye - 16 Sep 2006 13:19 GMT >> He was, simply, correct. I'm sure you don't want to hear this, but he >> should have insisted on a complete VIP. > > Cite? You have all my stuff. :-)
But a VIP 1) -requires- removal of the stickers (and any boots), for the exact reason you cite.
And, 2) the VIP stickers shouldn't have been replaced while the nitrox stickers were still on the tank.
====
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrox
Cylinder markings Any cylinder containing any blend of gas other than the standard air content is required by the dive community to be clearly marked.
The standard nitrox cylinder is yellow in color and marked with a green band around the shoulder of the tank, with "Nitrox" or "Enriched air" marked in white or yellow letters inside. Tanks of any other color are generally marked with six inch band around the shoulder, with a one inch green band on the top and bottom, with four inches of green in the middle. This green band will also have the designation of "NITROX" or something similar inside, in yellow or green letters.
Every nitrox cylinder should also have a sticker stating whether or not the cylinder is oxygen clean and suitable for partial pressure blending. Any oxygen clean cylinder may have any mix up to 100% oxygen inside. If by some accident an oxygen clean cylinder is filled at a station which does not supply gas to oxygen-clean standards it is then considered contaminated and must be recleaned before a gas containing more than 40% oxygen may again be added. Cylinders marked as not-oxygen clean may only be filled with enriched oxygen mixtures from membrane or stick blending systems where the gas is mixed before being added to the cylinder.
Finally, all nitrox cylinders should have a tag that, at minimum, states the oxygen content of the cylinder, the date it was blended, the gas blender's name, and the maximum operating depth. Other requirements may be made as to what is marked on the cylinder, but these markings are considered standard and safe by the diving community, and any cylinders lacking these markings should be considered possibly unsafe.
===
I don't particularly consider that a cite, but it is correct, and has sound reasoning.
The only place an internet cite may be available would be the U.S. Navy dive manual (because the agencies don't make their material available), and I'll look later.
IIRC, you have a TDI nitrox card.
Are you saying their standards are different?
Maybe things have changed, like I said.
It's page 53 of the IANTD blender's manual, which you have a digital copy of somewhere.
>> A rabble rouser from some elite dive organization will venture that the >> tanks were improperly filled, and your survivors will sue the dickens out [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Since the sticker says they were, why would that be a reasonable > assumption? See above.
>> What's the difference between his argument, yours, and Lees? > > My stickers are real? By what standard, if your VIP isn't done correctly?
I'm a certified Nitrox Blender, Trimix Blender, and have tech cards from 3 different agencies.
If I make stickers out of masking tape, are they less legitimate than (not referring to you) an untrained diver buying them from Leisure Pro and slapping them on?
Or a diveshop doing an incorrect VIP at your insistence, or their caprice?
> I don't have an argument. There is an industry standard for annual > visuals and 5 year hydros. The standard includes placement of a sticker > that indicates when and what was done. There isn't a standard for nitrox > bands. That's incorrect.
> It's imposed by some, but not even a consideration by others. There's > nothing standard about it . . . unless, of course, you've got a recent > cite that says otherwise. What's that password for the online study guide?
I'd like to see what it says.
>> Either there's a standard, or there isn't. > > There isn't. The shop you work for, the agency you trained with, and > others, each have their own rules, but there are no standards, at least > not for recreational diving. Cite.
>> For all the caterwauling we do about OW standards, I find -this- >> conversation quite interesting. > > We don't do any caterwauling about OW standards. We caterwaul about the > quality of service. There's a difference. Harrumph.
>> I own 9 tanks, and keep them completely in standard, including annual >> cleaning, viton o-rings, and tech lube. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > description doesn't say yours have either, is a yellow and green sticker > that says nitrox. "Completely in standard"- that includes tank stickers, O2 clean VIPs, and content stickers.
> Lee
 Signature Popeye You can get much further with a kind word and a gun than you can with a kind word alone. -Capone www.finalprotectivefire.com
Art Greenberg - 16 Sep 2006 15:06 GMT > But a VIP 1) -requires- removal of the stickers (and any boots), for the > exact reason you cite. > > And, 2) the VIP stickers shouldn't have been replaced while the nitrox > stickers were still on the tank. Where in my story did you see ANYTHING about when stickers were put on? There's only mention of when one was removed.
I think you read into it something that was not there.
> ==== > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrox Irrelevant.
 Signature Art Greenberg artg at eclipse dot net
Popeye - 16 Sep 2006 16:08 GMT >> But a VIP 1) -requires- removal of the stickers (and any boots), for >> the [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > I think you read into it something that was not there. One of us is.
You said you had air VIPs on tanks that had Nitrox stickers on them.
That's wrong.
During a VIP, all stickers are to be removed from tanks to check for corrosion underneath.
Period.
>> ==== >> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrox > > Irrelevant. As you choose.
It's what the Navy says, as well as IANTD and NAUI.
Art Greenberg - 16 Sep 2006 16:19 GMT > You said you had air VIPs on tanks that had Nitrox stickers on them. > > That's wrong. No, it is not. The yellow and green band has NOTHING to do with the VIP.
> During a VIP, all stickers are to be removed from tanks to check for > corrosion underneath. > > Period. Agreed. The VIP and band stickers were applied at the shop, after a proper air VIP.
Nothing at all inconsistent with that. The cylinders were meant to be filled with Grade E (or better) air, or EAN from a bank or membrane system. They never were intended to come into contact with pure oxygen.
This disagreement is precisely what drove me to eliminate use of the nitrox bands. They have no meaning at best, and are improperly interpreted at worst.
 Signature Art Greenberg artg at eclipse dot net
Popeye - 16 Sep 2006 16:44 GMT >> You said you had air VIPs on tanks that had Nitrox stickers on them. >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > air > VIP. And that was -very- wrong.
> Nothing at all inconsistent with that. The cylinders were meant to be > filled > with Grade E (or better) air, or EAN from a bank or membrane system. They > never were intended to come into contact with pure oxygen. What you're clearly stating here is that any tank can be filled with air or banked nitrox to 40%
That's a personal preference, not an industry standard.
You're also betting the safety of other divers for no reason at all.
> This disagreement is precisely what drove me to eliminate use of the > nitrox > bands. They have no meaning at best, and are improperly interpreted at > worst. It'll be nice to see those cites.
Art Greenberg - 18 Sep 2006 20:51 GMT > What you're clearly stating here is that any tank can be filled with air > or banked nitrox to 40% > > That's a personal preference, not an industry standard. Actually, any method of filling that does not expose the valve and cylinder to more than 40% oxygen at any pressure up to and including the final fill pressure.
It was so stated in my TDI Advanced Nitrox training in 1996.
> It'll be nice to see those cites. TDI Basic/Advanced Nitrox Manual (this is a photocopied distribution, there is no date of publication, but it is the manual given provided with my class in 1996): Chapter 12, "Oxygen Handling"
"Systems exposed to percentages greater than 40 must be O2 serviced"
NOAA Diving Manual, 4th ed: Section 15.11.4, "Cleaning for Oxygen Service"
"NOAA, as well as, several other agencise inluding OSHA (29 CFR 1910.430) and U.S. Coast Guard (46 CFR 197.452) allow gas mixes with oxygen up to 40% to be handled as if they were air."
BTW, this edition of the NOAA manual also discusses "formal" vs. "informal" cleaning, where the sole distinction is that "informal" cleaning lacks the documentation required by "formal" cleaning. The procedures and requirements are otherwise identical.
Mixed Gas Diving, by Tom Mount, Brett Gilliam et. al., 1993: Chapter 17, by C. Randy Bohrer, page 318, "Oxygen Mixtures", reports that NOAA and IANTD both permit mixtures containing up to 40% oxygen can be treated as air. Reports that ANDI differs, requiring equipment used with any mixture with more oxygen than air to be oxygen clean. Goes on to say that all agencies agree that if nitrox is mixed IN THE CYLINDER (emphasis mine), that the cylinder and valve must be prepared for oxygen service.
My copy of the US Navy Diving Manual does not discuss this, or labeling, in any detail. It refers to other Navy documents that I do not have.
 Signature Art Greenberg artg at eclipse dot net
Al Wells - 16 Sep 2006 13:19 GMT > > Until, that is, one day I needed a quick air fill, and one numbskull dive > > shop [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > If I didn't know you, -I- wouldn't have filled them. The green and yellow bands don't mean the tank is clean for PP blending or deco gas - you look at the VIP sticker for that. In places where banked nitrox is generally available, it is not unusual to see tanks with green bands that are not O2 clean for PP blending. The green bands mean "analyze me before use" and "take a good look at the VIP sticker before filling". I don't see that filling the tanks in question would violate anyone's standards. The green bands and VIP sticker are different issues. Maybe I'm missing something - why would you question the VIP sticker?
It is, of course, your right and responsibility to refuse to fill anything you're not comfortable with, but this one doesn't raise any concerns for me.
Popeye - 16 Sep 2006 13:35 GMT > The green and yellow bands don't mean the tank is clean for PP blending > or deco gas - you look at the VIP sticker for that. In places where [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > anything you're not comfortable with, but this one doesn't raise any > concerns for me. See my other post, but, the stickers should be removed for VIP.
Furthermore, after the tank had been filled with Grade E, it's no longer suitable for nitrox service.
Leaving the stickers on, or filling the tank with them on, makes you liable.
Art Greenberg - 16 Sep 2006 14:49 GMT > Furthermore, after the tank had been filled with Grade E, it's no longer > suitable for nitrox service. Completely wrong. Not suitable for PP fills. But completely OK for membrane generated gas, or banked gas.
 Signature Art Greenberg artg at eclipse dot net
Popeye - 16 Sep 2006 16:09 GMT >> Furthermore, after the tank had been filled with Grade E, it's no >> longer >> suitable for nitrox service. > > Completely wrong. If it's completely wrong, you wouldn't have to qualify it.
> Not suitable for PP fills. How do you mark the tank so that no one PP fills it?
>But completely OK for membrane generated gas, or banked gas. Only arguably, by your personal preference.
Industry standard is Modified E or J.
 Signature Popeye You can get much further with a kind word and a gun than you can with a kind word alone. -Capone www.finalprotectivefire.com
Art Greenberg - 16 Sep 2006 16:23 GMT > How do you mark the tank so that no one PP fills it? That is the purpose of the "oxygen service" knockout on the VIP sticker.
> Industry standard is Modified E or J. For cylinders cleaned for oxygen service, and so indicated on the VIP sticker. No other marking should be considered.
I have a drawer full of yellow and green bands. There is no control over their distribution or sale, unlike VIP stickers. They can not, and should not, be interpreted to indicate the cylinder is suitable for oxygen service.
 Signature Art Greenberg artg at eclipse dot net
Popeye - 16 Sep 2006 16:32 GMT >> How do you mark the tank so that no one PP fills it? > > That is the purpose of the "oxygen service" knockout on the VIP sticker. Which you don't have on your tank.
>> Industry standard is Modified E or J. > > For cylinders cleaned for oxygen service, and so indicated on the VIP > sticker. For nitrox use, period.
Please provide a cite that states otherwise.
> No other marking should be considered. Please cite this as well.
> I have a drawer full of yellow and green bands. There is no control over > their > distribution or sale, unlike VIP stickers. You can buy VIP stickers anywhere.
>They can not, and should not, be > interpreted to indicate the cylinder is suitable for oxygen service. Correct.
Art Greenberg - 16 Sep 2006 15:02 GMT > I'm sure you don't want to hear this, but he should have insisted on a > complete VIP. Say WHAT? A VIP for an AIR fill, on a cylinder with a perfectly valid VIP sticker in place? What planet are you on?
> Your tanks were incorrectly VIP'd by industry standard (unless it's > changed, and it does) in at least two ways. What standard? They were inspected and marked appropriately. The nitrox band has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the VIP.
> My first post here in '98 was about some dill-hole that made VIP stickers > out of masking tape, and blew a cork when I wouldn't fill his tanks. > > He -assured- me he had thoroughly inspected them. If he showed you a current certificate from PSI, you should have accepted his VIP. You think a dive shop VIP sticker means the inspections were done by certified personnel, and always done properly? Think again.
> I own 9 tanks, and keep them completely in standard, including annual > cleaning, viton o-rings, and tech lube. I own more (there are two divers in this household). And I keep them cleaned and fitted for oxygen service, now. But only because I no longer have easy access to a shop with banked or membrane generated gas. And NO yellow and green bands to be seen anywhere.
 Signature Art Greenberg artg at eclipse dot net
Popeye - 16 Sep 2006 16:18 GMT >> I'm sure you don't want to hear this, but he should have insisted on a >> complete VIP. > > Say WHAT? A VIP for an AIR fill, on a cylinder with a perfectly valid VIP > sticker in place? What planet are you on? It's not a perfectly valid VIP, and, the planet IANTD.
>> Your tanks were incorrectly VIP'd by industry standard (unless it's >> changed, and it does) in at least two ways. > > What standard? They were inspected and marked appropriately. The nitrox > band > has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the VIP. Stickers, period.
See my other post.
>> My first post here in '98 was about some dill-hole that made VIP >> stickers [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > his > VIP. I might have, if he did. He didn't.
>You think a dive shop VIP sticker means the inspections were done by > certified personnel, and always done properly? Think again. I've filled -thousands- of tanks.
I can think of times when I may well have filled 1000 tanks in a single week.
I know of several times when I filled over 300 a day.
Betting that one is done right, is better than -knowing- one is done wrong.
Like yours.
>> I own 9 tanks, and keep them completely in standard, including annual >> cleaning, viton o-rings, and tech lube. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > access to a shop with banked or membrane generated gas. And NO yellow and > green bands to be seen anywhere. Doesn't make it right, Art.
It just means you get away with it, or standards are lax where you get fills.
Al Wells - 17 Sep 2006 04:12 GMT Art Greenberg wrote:
> > I own 9 tanks, and keep them completely in standard, including annual > >> cleaning, viton o-rings, and tech lube. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > It just means you get away with it, or standards are lax where you get > fills. I'm not sure what the current IANTD standard is, but it is common practice in cave country and SoFL at IANTD affiliated shops. Perhaps Lee or one of the other SoFL folks can ask at Fill Express - he would be up to date on the current IANTD stsndards. He would have filled Art's tanks, no problem. I have a TDI blender cert, and I'll look for my book in the morning. I do know that some VIP stickers (such as the ones the shop I taught out of in SC uses) have different places to punch for O2 service and premix up to 40%. I agree that Navy and NOAA and probably ANDI standards don't allow this, but I suspect that IANTD and TDI might have changed, knowing the shops that do it and their affiliations. We only did PP blending at the SC shop, so I never had to worry about it.
If no one here comes up with it, I'll ask around tomorrow for the latest IANTD standard.
Lee Bell - 17 Sep 2006 06:00 GMT > I'm not sure what the current IANTD standard is, but it is common > practice in cave country and SoFL at IANTD affiliated shops. Perhaps Lee > or one of the other SoFL folks can ask at Fill Express - he would be up > to date on the current IANTD stsndards. I can't tell you what IANTD says about this, but I can tell you what Fill Express does. They're the shop that removes my stickers without ever suggesting that they be replaced. They bank nitrox, so they could care less what stickers are on tanks as long as it's curent for VIP and hydro up to 40% . Above that, they look for the O2 sticker, but not the bands.
They leave it to me to be careful when I have my tanks filled elsewhere, as they should. After all, if I pay to have them cleaned and certified as clean, it would be a bit silly of me to turn around and have them filled at a shop that doesn't have nitrox quality air.
Lee
Popeye - 17 Sep 2006 15:35 GMT > I'm not sure what the current IANTD standard is, but it is common > practice in cave country and SoFL at IANTD affiliated shops. They'll plug your burst disc and jack your LP tanks to 4000 psi, too. :-)
What standard is -that-?
>Perhaps Lee > or one of the other SoFL folks can ask at Fill Express - he would be up > to date on the current IANTD stsndards. He would have filled Art's > tanks, no problem. A practice, however convenient, logical, or frequently used, is not a standard.
Conventional wisdom currently states it's okay to use nitrile and butyl o-rings for oxygen service, just as long as you change them every year.
I won't do it.
All my save-a-dive o-rings are viton, and I chuck the rest as soon as they come in.
>I have a TDI blender cert, and I'll look for my book > in the morning. I do know that some VIP stickers (such as the ones the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > If no one here comes up with it, I'll ask around tomorrow for the latest > IANTD standard. Fair enough, I'd like to know.
Like I said, several times, maybe the standards have changed.
Lee Bell - 17 Sep 2006 18:41 GMT >> I'm not sure what the current IANTD standard is, but it is common >> practice in cave country and SoFL at IANTD affiliated *shops.
> They'll plug your burst disc and jack your LP tanks to 4000 psi, too. :-)
> What standard is -that-? The question is not what standard what we experience is. Neither I, Al or anyone else except for you claims what they are describing is a standards. To be a standard, there has to be some expectation that at least most will comply. It's pretty clear that there is no such expectation and that what you believe is a standard probably used to be, but no longer is. That was my original and only point. I think it's been made adequately.
Lee
Popeye - 17 Sep 2006 20:28 GMT >>> I'm not sure what the current IANTD standard is, but it is common >>> practice in cave country and SoFL at IANTD affiliated *shops. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > To be a standard, there has to be some expectation that at least most will > comply. Like stopping at stop signs, obeying speed limits, or solo diving, for instance?
> It's pretty clear that there is no such expectation and that what you > believe is a standard probably used to be, but no longer is. That was my > original and only point. I think it's been made adequately. Filling tanks to their -legal- limit isn't a standard?
I'm not trying to get on your bad side (again), but your above paragraph is absolutely preposterous.
A standard is a standard is a standard.
Relating what you an Al experience in a limited environment does not validate it.
The guy that made Art scrape his stickers seems to know what it is, and, we still haven't seen any cites to the contrary.
Lee Bell - 17 Sep 2006 21:50 GMT >> The question is not what standard what we experience is. Neither I, Al >> or anyone else except for you claims what they are describing is a [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Like stopping at stop signs, obeying speed limits, or solo diving, for > instance? Yes, yes and no. The requirement to stop at stop signs and to remain within speed limits are clearly documented and subject to specific punishment if you fail. There is an expectation that you will comply and a penalty if you don't. Solo diving is neither a standard nor covered by one.
>> It's pretty clear that there is no such expectation and that what you >> believe is a standard probably used to be, but no longer is. That was my >> original and only point. I think it's been made adequately. > > Filling tanks to their -legal- limit isn't a standard? What does a tank's legal limit have to do with whether or not it has a nitrox band on it? That's what we're talking about here. That's all you and I are talking about here.
If your are referring to the fact that cave divers chose to fill their tanks beyond their rated pressures, you've introduced something new into our discussion. In general, I think I agree that it violates a standard. I'd have to think about it some more to say it with any real conviction.
> I'm not trying to get on your bad side (again), but your above paragraph > is absolutely preposterous. > > A standard is a standard is a standard. Absolutely, and there is no standard today that requires a nitrox band on a nitrox tank.
> Relating what you an Al experience in a limited environment does not > validate it. I'm not trying to validate anything. You are. My statement was that it's not a standard. If you think it is, it's up to you to validate, not me.
Lee
Popeye - 17 Sep 2006 22:59 GMT >>> The question is not what standard what we experience is. Neither I, Al >>> or anyone else except for you claims what they are describing is a [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > nitrox band on it? That's what we're talking about here. That's all you > and I are talking about here. But your entire premise rests on the definition of "standard".
Discussing it is perfectly relevant to the discussion.
You say a standard isn't a standard if people don't comply with it.
I gave you several examples of standards that no one complies with.
That doesn't make them any less a standard.
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.0.1) - Cite This Source stand?ard /'stænd?rd/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[stan-derd] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
-noun 1. something considered by an authority or by general consent as a basis of comparison; an approved model. 2. an object that is regarded as the usual or most common size or form of its kind: We stock the deluxe models as well as the standards. 3. a rule or principle that is used as a basis for judgment: They tried to establish standards for a new philosophical approach. 4. an average or normal requirement, quality, quantity, level, grade, etc.: His work this week hasn't been up to his usual standard. 5. standards, those morals, ethics, habits, etc., established by authority, custom, or an individual as acceptable: He tried to live up to his father's standards.
.> If your are referring to the fact that cave divers chose to fill their tanks
> beyond their rated pressures, you've introduced something new into our > discussion. In general, I think I agree that it violates a standard. I'd [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > I'm not trying to validate anything. You are. My statement was that it's > not a standard. If you think it is, it's up to you to validate, not me. Not true.
I have quite precisely stated that "it was once a standard, and as far as I know, it still is".
And I have provided more than enough evidence to validate that claim.
IMO, you have stated "it's no longer a standard".
Please prove that.
> Lee Lee Bell - 17 Sep 2006 23:44 GMT >> What does a tank's legal limit have to do with whether or not it has a >> nitrox band on it? That's what we're talking about here. That's all you >> and I are talking about here. > > But your entire premise rests on the definition of "standard". Sure it does, but I didn't say anything about any standard other than the tank band.
> Discussing it is perfectly relevant to the discussion. > You say a standard isn't a standard if people don't comply with it. I did not say that. Look again.
> -noun 1. something considered by an authority or by general consent as a > basis of comparison; an approved model. Works for me. The bands you are talking about are not considered by an authority or general consent as an approved model. There is no authority and there is no consent.
Game, set and match, by your own definition.
> I have quite precisely stated that "it was once a standard, and as far as > I know, it still is". Fine. I've quite clearly stated that it probably was, but it isn't now. If you disagree, prove your claim and provide your cite supporting an authority or a general concensus, according to your own definition.
Lee
Art Greenberg - 18 Sep 2006 12:11 GMT > The guy that made Art scrape his stickers seems to know what it is That guy didn't know the "applicable" standards. He was completely and utterly ignorant of all things having to do with nitrox and oxygen, other than things he thought he knew, but never bothered to verify. His shop did not, at the time, provide any gas for fills other than air, while all around him, the industry had embraced nitrox for recreational diving. He was unprepared for that day, which I regret to say was not out of character for him.
I was a certified nitrox diver, and he was not. But he was an instructor and a dive shop owner, so he was certain the he was right, and that I had nothing relevant to say that mattered.
He did not care what the VIP sticker said. He never even looked at it, until I pointed to it. And seeing it, he did not comprehend what it meant.
If I had gone in with no yellow and green bands on the cylinders, but with the "oxygen service" box knocked out, he'd have filled those cylinders without hesitation. (Of course, I would not have provided him with the opportunity.)
 Signature Art Greenberg artg at eclipse dot net
Popeye - 18 Sep 2006 13:51 GMT >> The guy that made Art scrape his stickers seems to know what it is > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > hesitation. (Of course, I would not have provided him with the > opportunity.) That's an excellent rant, which I'm sure is true word for word, but it has nothing to do with the decision he made.
Greg Mossman - 18 Sep 2006 23:12 GMT > If no one here comes up with it, I'll ask around tomorrow for the latest > IANTD standard. I'm not sure if this was already posted:
http://www.iantd.com/standards/2001/IT.htm#11
K. Labeling Bottom Mix EANx Mixtures With Less Than 41% Oxygen 1. Where applicable, cylinders must be marked per legal requirements in addition to the following: 2. Cylinders painted yellow must be labeled with a 4-inch (10-centimeter) wide green band. The band must wrap around the tank starting at the flat of the cylinder. The label must state "Enriched Air Nitrox" (or an applicable acronym). IANTD has EANx decals available for labeling cylinders. 3. Cylinders painted with colors other than yellow require a 6-inch (15-centimeter) wide Enriched Air Nitrox band (decal) with the top 1 inch (2.5 centimeters) and the bottom 1 inch (2.5 centimeters) yellow. The middle of the band (decal) should be printed with a green background and the message, "Enriched Air Nitrox" (or an applicable acronym) printed in yellow for easy identification. 4. Nitrox (EANx) cylinders must have Cylinder Contents Labels affixed to them. The Contents label must state the oxygen percentage currently in the cylinder and the Maximum Operating Depth (MOD). The label must be dated and signed by the person who purchased (or requested) the mix (verifying he/she confirmed the O2 percentage). This label may be a separate label, or part of the EANx band. IANTD has waterproof, reusable Cylinder Contents labels and cylinder content tape available for order. 5. Nitrox (EANx) cylinders must have a current Visual Inspection (VIP) decal stated that oxygen-compatible lubricants have been used in the system (valve, tank neck, and/or cylinder). EANx cylinders used with EAN 41, or greater, or for direct partial pressure blending use, must have an Oxygen Service Rated VIP decal. IANTD has VIP decals (which also cover both tank and valve inspections) available for order. 6. It is recommended that an additional label using one of the following options be used (these do not replace the requirement for the wrap around labels): a. A Decal stating MOD to be placed lengthwise on the cylinder (IAND Inc./IANTD has these with both a fixed MOD plus blank ones for the user to fill in the MOD, these are blue with white lettering). b. The MOD to be painted on the cylinder. c. A cylinder wrap suitable for regulator hose storage with the MOD boldly marked on it (these are also available through IAND Inc./IANTD.
Popeye - 18 Sep 2006 23:54 GMT >> If no one here comes up with it, I'll ask around tomorrow for the latest >> IANTD standard. > > I'm not sure if this was already posted: > > http://www.iantd.com/standards/2001/IT.htm#11 It's a figment of your imagination.
 Signature
Popeye It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. - Aristotle www.finalprotectivefire.com>
Al Wells - 19 Sep 2006 12:23 GMT > I'm not sure if this was already posted: > > http://www.iantd.com/standards/2001/IT.htm#11 Thanks Greg. It appears that under IANTD standards, you shouldn't have nitrox bands and a normal VIP. You need to have either O2 clean for deco gases and PP blending of any mix, or a lower level of cleanliness for premix of <41%. This is consistent with the VIP stickers I've seen with 4 boxes that can be checked - normal VIP, clean for premix <40%, clean for O2 service, and eddy current tested.
All of my tanks are cleaned for PP blending, and there are only 3 fill stations in the world (besides my "home" station in SC and friends' garages) that ever see them, so I don't run into these problems anymore.
Just as an aside, you can still have a problem with O2 cleaned tanks if proper fill procedures are not followed. Christolube and Krytox will burn very rapidly in O2 if it gets started; it is just way harder to start than the cheap stuff or oil, which will spontaneously combust at as low as a few hundred PSI of O2.
Greg Mossman - 18 Sep 2006 23:14 GMT > If no one here comes up with it, I'll ask around tomorrow for the latest > IANTD standard. And this too:
IAND, Inc./IANTD Facility Standards
C. Procedures 1. All cylinders for Nitrox, oxygen, Trimix, argon, etc. shall be properly labeled as defined in the Blending Standards. 2. Nitrox cylinders may be filled with air, provided that the air is oxygen compatible. 3. All cylinders that are filled for customers must be recorded in a logbook at the filling station. Customers are required to log their fills after analysis, and either sign or initial the mix for each fill. Copies of this log are to be available to IAND, Inc./IANTD HQ upon request. 4. Cylinders may only be filled with the gas that the cylinder is labeled for. 5. All oxygen conversions on any equipment are to be performed only by a qualified Technician. A qualified technician must be an IANTD Blending Technician and also be qualified as an Equipment Technician by the manufacturer of the equipment that conversion is performed on. 6. All fills (except air) must be performed by a qualified Blender. 7. Visual inspection stickers must indicate that the cylinder has been cleaned and inspected for the gas being filled. 8. A proper IANTD cylinder contents label or IANTD content tape must contain the oxygen fraction and be initialed verifying the mix. 9. All cylinders and equipment to be used with gas mixtures other than air must be maintained in accordance with the minimum IANTD Blending Standards, plus meet all specifications of the individual manufacturer of the equipment being used.
Popeye - 19 Sep 2006 00:06 GMT >> If no one here comes up with it, I'll ask around tomorrow for the latest >> IANTD standard. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > C. Procedures
> 1. All cylinders for Nitrox, oxygen, Trimix, argon, etc. shall be > properly labeled as defined in the Blending Standards. Hmmph.
mike gray - 16 Sep 2006 21:21 GMT >>> As far as you not having them on yours, that's a personal choice, but >>>I [quoted text clipped - 61 lines] > I own 9 tanks, and keep them completely in standard, including annual > cleaning, viton o-rings, and tech lube. Yeah, I'm a little disturbed about the current trend toward each shop having its own standard, or in some cases, no standard.
The dive community has been able to avoid regulation by self-regulation. I think DEMA should come up with a standard for marking tanks and the dive community should adhere to it. Otherwise, there will be accidents and the gov't will get into the business.
m
Scott - 16 Sep 2006 21:23 GMT > Yeah, I'm a little disturbed about the current trend toward each > shop having its own standard, or in some cases, no standard. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Otherwise, there will be accidents and the gov't will get into > the business. On the way.
Thank your local ambulance chaser.
Popeye - 16 Sep 2006 22:02 GMT >> "Art Greenberg" <none@none.invalid> wrote in message
>> I own 9 tanks, and keep them completely in standard, including annual >> cleaning, viton o-rings, and tech lube. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > community should adhere to it. Otherwise, there will be accidents and the > gov't will get into the business. DEMA or WRSTC.
Like I said, maybe standards have changed.
Maybe we should pool our nitrox manuals and have them all put on CD for comparison.
But I hold 2 IANTD blender certs, and they are quite clear.
The Navy, grandfather of all standards, is clear.
I'm sure NAUI was specific as well, but I can't find the class manual.
The tanks are marked with the band stickers to prevent mistakes.
mike gray - 17 Sep 2006 21:27 GMT >>>"Art Greenberg" <none@none.invalid> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > The tanks are marked with the band stickers to prevent mistakes. Currently, my tanks have a single little green sticker way down just above the boot that say, in print about the size of this, "Suitable for Oxygen service".
My lady friend rents tanks of nitrox that may or may not have some kind of sticker.
The only real way to get even a hint at the Oxygen contents of a tank today is to analyze it, and who knows if the rest is He of N.
That would not be acceptable in any industrial setting, it should not be acceptable in diving.
Tina - 17 Sep 2006 02:32 GMT > Janet wrote > [quoted text clipped - 175 lines] > > Lee Thank you Lee and Popeye. Good information.
Popeye - 16 Sep 2006 14:09 GMT "Popeye" <popeye@finalprotectivefire.com> wrote in message news:...
> "Lee Bell" <pleebell2@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> The only place an internet cite may be available would be the U.S. Navy > dive manual (because the agencies don't make their material available), > and I'll look later. In my version, chapter 10, paragraph 8.1, "Nitrox Diving Equipment".
Not my version: www.coralspringsscuba.com/miscellaneous/usn_manual.htm
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