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Scuba Forum / General / September 2006Dive Instructors - Open Letter
After yet another trip on a charter with a dive instructor present (I wasn't in his class, nor a customer of his shop, and the charter was an open charter), I have to make a simple request of all of you instructors: SHUT THE f.ck UP AND QUIT TELLING ME HOW TO DIVE!!!! Please. I didn't ask for your opinion, nor do I want your opinion. I'm not your student and I probably have more dive experience than you do (especially after listening to some of your instruction). I actually had one clown chastise me for having my safety sausage connected to the right side of my BCD instead of the left. WHO CARES?!?! > After yet another trip on a charter with a dive instructor present (I > wasn't in his class, nor a customer of his shop, and the charter was [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > connected to the right side of my BCD instead of the left. WHO > CARES?!?! That would make a good T-shirt. <snip> Would it be too much trouble for you 'nospam'ers to come up with a more unique moniker so that we can more easily know who is who... Yeah, I know that if I look at the IP addresses, one of you is from around Crowley, LA and the other is from around Nanuet, NY, but it sure would be nice if you would create a more unique moniker / name for yourself... Perhaps a name of "NoSpam-LA-Crowley" and "NoSpam-NY-Nanuet"? > After yet another trip on a charter with a dive instructor present (I > wasn't in his class, nor a customer of his shop, and the charter was [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > connected to the right side of my BCD instead of the left. WHO > CARES?!?! Talking about who cares - who really cares on this forum about what you do? You can go kill yourself for all I care, bub. In fact, if it spares me having to listen to this drivel, you have my active encouragement. V. > Talking about who cares - who really cares on this forum about what you > do? You can go kill yourself for all I care, bub. In fact, if it > spares me having to listen to this drivel, you have my active > encouragement. Dont sugar coat him Vandit, let him have it straight... > Dont sugar coat him Vandit, let him have it straight... I think I shouldnt post without taking my medication... I'll lose my reputation as kind-hearted, polite, newbie-helped :) Vandit > > Dont sugar coat him Vandit, let him have it straight... > > I think I shouldnt post without taking my medication... I'll lose my > reputation as kind-hearted, polite, newbie-helped :) Hullo?? That's not the guy I argued with on rec.scuba, to my detriment . . . nor is that the super guy I met in Thailand. All that aside, unfortunately, last year, in Honduras I found myself diving with a young dive nazi for one boat dive. He had all kinds of ideas about how I should conduct myself in the water. It didn't work out well. Up on land, ever after, all of our mutual friends kept trying to help things work out . . I don't mean that way . . . everyone just wanted whatisname and me to "kiss and make up". aahhhahhhhaaaahhhhaaaa We both thought life was too short. I'm sure he's still out there directing dive traffic. Me, I'm still out there, ignoring dive nazi dive masters. Oh by the way, Vandit, I'm still hanging out with Jenny. Do you remember her from Koh Tao?? She ended up in Belize. > Hullo?? That's not the guy I argued with on rec.scuba, to my detriment . . Hey, I havent gotten into a real flamewar for almost 4 years. Havent called anyone a fucknozzle for 5 years. That's gotta count for something! > All that aside, unfortunately, last year, in Honduras I found myself diving > with a young dive nazi for one boat dive. I had one of those in Zanzibar. It was our last day, and we really wanted to dive these 2 wrecks, one at 130ft, the other at 100ft. The instructor was kind of cool about it, and said it would be hard for them to pull it off schedulewise, as the sites were a bit far. Ok, fine. We went to the 100ft wreck, and it was a major disappointment. The water was cold, the vis was crap and the wreck was sh.t, so I bailed on the second dive. On the ride back, their DM started going off on me, however - saying about how I claimed to be an instructor and yet didnt know that it wasnt possible to do a 130ft and a 100ft dive safely on the same day, and how I couldnt even do 2 dives on a day so how was I going to do 2 deep dives. I came really close to throwing him off the boat (my friend says he was actually ready to physically restrain me). I ended up showing him my mix card, and telling him that he was a f.cking newbie idiot who should stick to diving in a bathtub. That has been about the only bad/annoying dive boat experience I've had. > Oh by the way, Vandit, I'm still hanging out with Jenny. Do you remember > her from Koh Tao?? She ended up in Belize. Jenny? I think I vaguely remember her... is that the girl who was doing her IDC with me? If so, tell her I said hi. I *do* remember this guy whose mattress you were going to go test. Whatever became of that? :) Vandit "never forgets dodgy moments" > > Hullo?? That's not the guy I argued with on rec.scuba, to my detriment . . > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > and how I couldnt even do 2 dives on a day so how was I going to do 2 > deep dives. LOL . . .the guy I'm talking about was giving me grief over a 50 footer. He said I was an accident waiting to happen. In fairness, I didn't have a dive buddy and I wanted to descend to the sand on my own (which was at 20'), because he was organizing his newbies. I wanted to descend so that I wouldn't burn my face and hands waiting around on the surface for 20+ minutes. But according to him that would have been deadly. > I came really close to throwing him off the boat (my friend says he was > actually ready to physically restrain me). I ended up showing him my > mix card, and telling him that he was a f.cking newbie idiot who should > stick to diving in a bathtub. That has been about the only > bad/annoying dive boat experience I've had. Well, you probably don't have quite as an initially abraisive aspect, as I can have hee hee > > Oh by the way, Vandit, I'm still hanging out with Jenny. Do you remember > > her from Koh Tao?? She ended up in Belize. > > Jenny? I think I vaguely remember her... is that the girl who was > doing her IDC with me? If so, tell her I said hi. I can't know that for sure, but she's probably hard to forget. White blonde hair, huge blue eyes, from England, worked at New Way with Dom, all through her DM and into instructor. Maybe you taught her, I dunno. We've never actually discussed that. I owe her an email, so I'll ask her if she knows you. > I *do* remember this guy whose mattress you were going to go test. > Whatever became of that? :) Um, a guy's mattress that *I* was going to test? OK, there was Dave, that really weird Auzzi, that was missing a few teeth. He introduced me to a young guy that oddly really wanted to meet me. A beautiful Dutch guy with black hair and big blue eyes and limited English. I sure wish I could have got passed that. He was so beautiful. In any event, while I was standing there trying to talk with beautiful young Dutch guy . . some average American guy came over and started to chat me up. Claimed he was a dive instructor, he was nice enough and even eventually, managed to help me find my place. After all, I'd never tried to find Sunset Buri in the dark, cuz after all, that was my first night on the island. In any event, he walked me for a while . . and then we staggered together for a while longer, the we stopped on the beach and watched the moon for a bit, and I kept brushing him off me . . and then we walked back towards the bar for a while cuz I thought I must have passed my place in the dark . . . anyway after an hour or so, some lovely young French people on motorcylces were good enough to stop and carry us onto my place. At that point, I tried to gracefully say goodnight but he said he needed to pee, so of course, after all that, the least I could do was let the guy take a whiz, right? So, I was sitting there waiting for him to come out of the bathroom and eventually he did . . all wet and wearing nothing but a towel. What the *f*? I said to myself. (apparently, he'd had a whiz *and* taken a shower) Long story short, he was quite annoying and quite insistent and kept saying I wanted it . . I said he was wrong about that . . he didn't believe me and eventually, I just called him crazy, threw all his clothes outside and made him throw me back my towel, while he was out scrambling for his shorts. Is that who you meant? Yeah, he's probably right. I can be a real bitch . . .but who asked him?? Was he a friend of yours?? > Vandit "never forgets dodgy moments" Ya me too. Remembering the dodgy parts. I'll never forget the look on my face, um . . well, what I suspect was the look on my face when he came out of my bathroom wearing nothing but one of my towels. > All that aside, unfortunately, last year, in Honduras I found myself diving > with a young dive nazi for one boat dive. <snip> Does that mean that we must now claim Godwin's Law on this thead? <grin> >> Talking about who cares - who really cares on this forum about what you >> do? You can go kill yourself for all I care, bub. In fact, if it >> spares me having to listen to this drivel, you have my active >> encouragement. > > Dont sugar coat him Vandit, let him have it straight... But Koplin's got the cure for "IIS" (irritating instructor syndrome), it's called the "dead guy drift". A barrel of laughs for -any- OW class...  SignaturePopeye The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie - deliberate, contrived, and dishonest - but the myth - persistent, persuasive, and realistic. - JFK www.finalprotectivefire.com > But Koplin's got the cure for "IIS" (irritating instructor syndrome), > it's called the "dead guy drift". > > A barrel of laughs for -any- OW class... Can't you just put your mask on your forehead these days and watch 'em freak out? >> But Koplin's got the cure for "IIS" (irritating instructor syndrome), >> it's called the "dead guy drift". [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Can't you just put your mask on your forehead these days and watch 'em > freak out? "Zip me up! Zip me up!" SignaturePopeye The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie - deliberate, contrived, and dishonest - but the myth - persistent, persuasive, and realistic. - JFK www.finalprotectivefire.com >> But Koplin's got the cure for "IIS" (irritating instructor syndrome), >> it's called the "dead guy drift". I like it. I like it a lot. > Can't you just put your mask on your forehead these days and watch 'em > freak out? Unfortunately, that no longer seems to work. Perhaps that part of the course got dropped as being too tough for some of the sheep . . . I mean students. Lee > Can't you just put your mask on your forehead these days and watch 'em freak > out? Freaks ME out for sure. Getting spare masks is hard enough in our neck of the woods, without some careless putz losing his b/c he had it on his forehead. If it is their own gear, they can put their BCD on their forehead for all I care. Vandit > >> Talking about who cares - who really cares on this forum about what you > >> do? You can go kill yourself for all I care, bub. In fact, if it [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > A barrel of laughs for -any- OW class... SSSSShhhhhhhhh! They may still be looking for me... > >> Talking about who cares - who really cares on this forum about what you > >> do? You can go kill yourself for all I care, bub. In fact, if it [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > A barrel of laughs for -any- OW class... Another fun game requires a scooter and some practice. Simply power along slowly just below the surface, then as you approach a group of OW students waiting to descend, slow way down, sit astride the scooter, break the surface with your head and shoulders, and cruise on by. Only works with the torpedo-type models. Best done in a quarry. Used several times at a scooter demo day, with predictable results. * >> >> Talking about who cares - who really cares on this forum about what >> >> you [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > works with the torpedo-type models. Best done in a quarry. Used > several times at a scooter demo day, with predictable results. How cool. You could do the shark thing from "Jaws" like that: The studii would -walk- back out of the quarry... -On- the water. > * >>> >> Talking about who cares - who really cares on this forum about what >>> >> you [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > -On- the water. That was my thought. I've seen shark fins for tanks before. Still take a little practice, but fun. >> * > Signaturedillon How much power does it take to run a server farm? A googlewatt. > After yet another trip on a charter with a dive instructor present (I > wasn't in his class, nor a customer of his shop, and the charter was [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > connected to the right side of my BCD instead of the left. WHO > CARES?!?! It would make me happy not to ever talk to you again, but since you've chosen to remain anonymous I have no clue who not to talk to. * > > After yet another trip on a charter with a dive instructor present (I > > wasn't in his class, nor a customer of his shop, and the charter was [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > It would make me happy not to ever talk to you again, but since you've > chosen to remain anonymous I have no clue who not to talk to. He might be that little dive nazi guy I met in Honduras. ;^) >> After yet another trip on a charter with a dive instructor present (I >> wasn't in his class, nor a customer of his shop, and the charter was [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > It would make me happy not to ever talk to you again, but since you've > chosen to remain anonymous I have no clue who not to talk to. Why? Personally, I understand the sentiment fully, at least I think I do. I'll bet every one of us, at one time or another, has been on a boat where somebody, by virtue of the rating on their card, presumed to tell us all about how we should dive their way. I don't think I've ever told them to Shut the f.ck Up ? but I'm sure I've been tempted. An open letter here seems better than a confrontation on a dive boat . . . and he did say Please. Telling someone what to do and how here, in rec.scuba, is one thing. Presuming to do it to a captive audience on a dive boat is entirely different. Lee > Personally, I understand the sentiment fully, at least I think I do. > I'll bet every one of us, at one time or another, has been on a boat where [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Presuming to do it to a captive audience on a dive boat is entirely > different. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/devon/5257704.stm -hh > > Personally, I understand the sentiment fully, at least I think I do. > > I'll bet every one of us, at one time or another, has been on a boat where [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/devon/5257704.stm Well, I'm no John Hanson, but I certainly didn't feel like an advanced (experienced) diver after 50 dives . . though PADI had given me my Advanced card about then. > -hh > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/devon/5257704.stm "I do not think someone with 47 dives is an experienced diver." I have done 15 dives, and I certainly don't think I am one. But how many dives does it take? >> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/devon/5257704.stm > > "I do not think someone with 47 dives is an experienced diver." > > I have done 15 dives, and I certainly don't think I am one. But how > many dives does it take? A lot of that depends on the person and their habits. If you only do dives that are simple, never pushing the envelope, and only dive under the guidance of a divemaster (think Cozumel and cruise ship divers) then you don't gain much experience at 25 or 50 dives. If, on the other hand, you learn something on each dive, and push the envelope a bit, you can gain "experience" a lot more rapidly, making you an "experienced" diver at 30 or 40 dives. Dives count, but also the type of dives, and with whom you dive. Much like marriage in Tennessee, "it's all relative". Signature“TANSTAAFL” “All I can say is there had better be some cheese at the end of this maze……” ____________________________________________________________________________ "A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for them; The simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences." - Proverbs 22:3 > > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/devon/5257704.stm > > "I do not think someone with 47 dives is an experienced diver." > > I have done 15 dives, and I certainly don't think I am one. But how > many dives does it take? According to PADI, or reality? -hh >>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/devon/5257704.stm >> "I do not think someone with 47 dives is an experienced diver." [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > -hh As with most cases like this, you confuse 'trained' with qualified. PADI certifies you as Trained to do these 'advanced' dives NOT as qualified to do them. You may get a pilots license but does that give you the experience to do a cross country trip through mountainous country, in bad weather, at night, to a small field you've never landed at? > >>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/devon/5257704.stm > > As with most cases like this, you confuse 'trained' with qualified. I'm not confused at all. What I see is the possibility of Manslaughter charges being filed against a PADI instructor because he was doing what his Agency said was OK, because there's a growing backlash within the industry that is suggesting that they have finally gone too far with aggressive business practices that compromise safety. > PADI certifies you as Trained to do these 'advanced' dives NOT as > qualified to do them. Not quite. PADI's traditional legal semantics are that the AOW class is merely training that is "more advanced" than OW. And the tap dance for their new "Scuba Diver" class (which is half of OW-I) is that it requires the holder to only do dives with a Pro, but neglects to put any (Instructor:Student -type) ratio on the practice. -hh >> >>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/devon/5257704.stm >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > industry that is suggesting that they have finally gone too far with > aggressive business practices that compromise safety. Growing backlash within the industry? That's quite a stretch, isn't it? The only thing the cited article had was a fundamental lack of coherent information. I'd sure like to see dude's report. >> PADI certifies you as Trained to do these 'advanced' dives NOT as >> qualified to do them. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > OW-I) is that it requires the holder to only do dives with a Pro, but > neglects to put any (Instructor:Student -type) ratio on the practice. And how many of these divers have died in the last 5 years? SignaturePopeye The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie - deliberate, contrived, and dishonest - but the myth - persistent, persuasive, and realistic. - JFK www.finalprotectivefire.com > Growing backlash within the industry? > That's quite a stretch, isn't it? Not at all. It's reality. It's shown up here in numerous threads related to PADI's marketing and quality assurance. It has shown up in other countries as laws are enacted to ensure things that the leader in a self regulated industry should have already done and it's now showing up in official discussions in the UK, where PADI was originally held to higher standards just to be allowed to do business. There's no denying that the backlash is growing. > The only thing the cited article had was a fundamental lack of coherent > information. That's not what I read. I didn't get the impression that it was the information that was being criticized. What I read was that training was progressing too quickly, that people without adequate training or experience were being led to believe that they were advanced divers, even better, by cards that said they were. Claims that advanced only means more advanced than the basic course is right up there with Clinton's claim that a blow job isn't sex. Lee > Claims that advanced only means more advanced > than the basic course is right up there with Clinton's > claim that a blow job isn't sex. It just occurred to me that perhaps Billy Boy was implying that Monica did it so poorly that it couldn't be considered as 'sex'... Wow, that puts a whole new light on the issue... <evil-grin> >>>>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/devon/5257704.stm >> As with most cases like this, you confuse 'trained' with qualified. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > industry that is suggesting that they have finally gone too far with > aggressive business practices that compromise safety. You need new glasses, the ones you're using are misleading you. Stick to your bad photography and leave the legal stuff to the shysters. >> PADI certifies you as Trained to do these 'advanced' dives NOT as >> qualified to do them. > > Not quite. PADI's traditional legal semantics are that the AOW class > is merely training that is "more advanced" than OW. and here you make my point. > And the tap dance for their new "Scuba Diver" class (which is half of > OW-I) is that it requires the holder to only do dives with a Pro, but > neglects to put any (Instructor:Student -type) ratio on the practice. So you need that? don't you think that is up to the 'pro' doing the leading? It also puts the responsibility of that decision on said 'pro' not on PADI ;-) > You need new glasses, the ones you're using are misleading you. > Stick to your bad photography and leave the legal stuff to the shysters. Monday's hangover make you grumpy, Sunshine? :-) > >> PADI certifies you as Trained to do these 'advanced' dives NOT as > >> qualified to do them. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > and here you make my point. I don't dispute that there's a difference between training and being qualified. The problem is that when you go ask your generic, non-rec.scuba reading Joe Sixpack diver what his diving qualifications are, 80% of the time, he will parrot his 'Qualifiations' as whatever his PADI Card happens to say... ...and AOW invariably gets shortened to "Advanced". That's the 'industry practice' on the consumer's side. Do recall that PADI is good at is marketing, and regardless of the sport, no one likes to admit that they're a beginner. Also do recall how AOW got its start: Advanced used to specifically mean the NAUI Advanced class which was *after* Rescue Diver. However, when PADI chose to name their version of OW-II class as AOW, it caused quite a stir. In the end - - after events such as the 1992 "Ask the Agencies" session at BTS (where this issue of what "PADI Advanced" means came up), there was amazingly strong grass roots anger with PADI's choice of the word "Advanced": words from the audience included things like "deceptive", "unsafe", etc. - - PADI's "800lb Gorilla" marketing persevered and created customer confusion which forced their minority market share competitors such as NAUI to rename their training classes. In today's terms, we would probably consider it to be close to an "Illegal use of Monopoly Power". FYI, the old NAUI Advanced became known as Master Diver. This is all a very well known "Emperor has no clothes" situation. Other examples include how OW-I divers routinely ignore their supposed 60fsw depth limit, often from literally Day 1 after getting their Certification, and also how some (many?) Instructors are often more conservative than PADI's standards for the Instructor:Student ratio on a Resort Course ("Discover Diving"). Recall also how PADI claimed on a stack of Bibles that Nitrox was Evil incarnate...until they realized that there was money to be made. Ditto minimum age. Ditto for their eight-month delay in recalling a defective and hazardous batch of RDP tables back in 2002/2003. All of this functionally negates their assertion that they rule the dive industry because of "superior quality control"; they rule because of highly aggressive marketing. Thus said, there's a lot of very good PADI Instructors out there - - the problem is that they exist *despite* the organizational corporate structure/culture, not *because* of it. > > And the tap dance for their new "Scuba Diver" class (which is half of > > OW-I) is that it requires the holder to only do dives with a Pro, but [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > leading? It also puts the responsibility of that decision on said 'pro' > not on PADI ;-) Exactly! In the absence of any published Agency recommendation, the guidance is "sorry, you're on your own" when anything bad happens: the Pro has no "higher authority" to cite for his legal defense. The result is that PADI neatly dodges any legal liability, which ultimately means that they have left their Pro & his diveshop hung out to dry: Consumer loses (gets hurt) Pro loses (is sued) Dive Op loses (is also sued) PADI walks away untouched. IMO, any PADI Pro with anything to lose (ie, all part-time instructors and all dive ops) would be wise to not touch anything to deal with the PADI "Scuba Diver" Training with a 10ft pole, for their own Agency has left them dangling, holding the bag for virtually all of the liability. -hh > This is all a very well known "Emperor has no clothes" situation. > > Other examples include how OW-I divers routinely ignore their supposed > 60fsw depth limit, often from literally Day 1 after getting their > Certification, Not a PADI issue, nor confined to PADI divers. >and also how some (many?) Instructors are often more > conservative than PADI's standards for the Instructor:Student ratio on > a Resort Course ("Discover Diving"). Which, while anecdotal, has led to how many deaths? How long has "Discover Diving" been in place now? >Recall also how PADI claimed on a > stack of Bibles that Nitrox was Evil incarnate...until they realized > that there was money to be made. Like everyone else, including DEMA. >Ditto minimum age. WRSTC. > Ditto for their > eight-month delay in recalling a defective and hazardous batch of RDP > tables back in 2002/2003. No answer for that one, but I never heard of it. Certainly not an industry first, however, just ask Reeeeeeeeef. :-) >> So you need that? don't you think that is up to the 'pro' doing the >> leading? It also puts the responsibility of that decision on said 'pro' [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > PADI walks away untouched. Cite, please. If this was any kind of trend, there must be figures available. I know scores of PADI instructors, and have never heard of one getting sued. > IMO, any PADI Pro with anything to lose (ie, all part-time instructors > and all dive ops) would be wise to not touch anything to deal with the > PADI "Scuba Diver" Training with a 10ft pole, for their own Agency has > left them dangling, holding the bag for virtually all of the liability. <snip> > I know scores of PADI instructors, and have never heard of one getting > sued. That's because all of their victims are dead and PADI is part of a vast conspiracy to cover it all up (which is why you don't hear all of the reports). :-) > <snip> > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > conspiracy to cover it all up (which is why you don't hear all of the > reports). :-) It's not PADI's fault if they dive with the SS on the wrong side. > > <snip> > > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > It's not PADI's fault if they dive with the SS on the wrong side. It is if PADI tells them to. I wouldn't know since I've never taken a course from the death dealers. ;-) > > > <snip> > > > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > It is if PADI tells them to. I wouldn't know since I've never taken a > course from the death dealers. ;-) I survived my videography course - unless I died and no one's had the heart to tell me. Dennis Thus spake "Dennis \(Icarus\)" <nojunkmail@ever.invalid> : >> > > <snip> >> > > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >I survived my videography course - unless I died and no one's had the heart >to tell me. Grabbing a long stick ... >Dennis > Signaturedillon How much power does it take to run a server farm? A googlewatt. > > This is all a very well known "Emperor has no clothes" situation. > > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Not a PADI issue, nor confined to PADI divers. Not confined to just PADI, but as the Industry Leader, they contribute. > >and also how some (many?) Instructors are often more > > conservative than PADI's standards for the Instructor:Student ratio on > > a Resort Course ("Discover Diving"). > > Which, while anecdotal, has led to how many deaths? There have been deaths all over the place during Instructor:Student dives. I could go look through DAN's annual reports, but as we know, they specifically exclude DM's and Instructors who are killed while conducting training, so it will only statistically capture the student victims. Locally, I can recall a student who died at Shark River Inlet and nearly killed their Instructor (revived) and DM too. > How long has "Discover Diving" been in place now? Long enough. The reports aren't generally well distributed, since it hurts the tourism. For example, here's a tourist who died on a guided snorkeling trip a mere 3 weeks ago in the Caymans: http://www.caycompass.com/cgi-bin/CFPnews.cgi?ID=1015132 BTW, DCS injuries are common enough in the Caymans such that they're installing a second chamber this year. > > Ditto for their > > eight-month delay in recalling a defective and hazardous batch of RDP > > tables back in 2002/2003. > > No answer for that one, but I never heard of it. Defective product (due to misprint) distributed Jan/Feb 2002. Internal PADI Memo for a silent recall June 2002. Public announcement to recall them finally occured in Feb 2003, after their internal memo was apparently leaked to the Consumer Protection Board and others. > Certainly not an industry first, however, just ask Reeeeeeeeef. :-) And that's the problem. Greed before safety, while we're being preached at to be "Responsible Divers". f.cking hypocrites. What they deserve is for a 12ga to be rammed up their a.s and dischraged with 5 rounds of Trap Heavy Loads. > I know scores of PADI instructors, and have never heard of one getting > sued. Personally, I don't associate with the types that are predisposed to getting sued. But I do know one Instructor who got bent on the job who sued their employer (and won); should that count? -hh > There have been deaths all over the place during Instructor:Student > dives. I could go look through DAN's annual reports, but as we know, [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > http://www.caycompass.com/cgi-bin/CFPnews.cgi?ID=1015132 This article has no mention of Discover SCUBA Diving and is about a snorkeler who drowned, not a SCUBA diver. Where's the connection to Discover SCUBA Diving? I don't see one. Jay http://www.divewithjay.com >> There have been deaths all over the place during Instructor:Student >> dives. I could go look through DAN's annual reports, but as we know, [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > snorkeler who drowned, not a SCUBA diver. Where's the connection to > Discover SCUBA Diving? I don't see one. You weren't alone. > Jay > http://www.divewithjay.com SignaturePopeye You can get much further with a kind word and a gun than you can with a kind word alone. -Capone www.finalprotectivefire.com Jay wrote: > This article has no mention of Discover SCUBA Diving and is about a > snorkeler who drowned, not a SCUBA diver. Where's the connection to > Discover SCUBA Diving? I don't see one. The point that was being made was merely that there's a generally self-serving motivation for vacation destinations to surpress 'bad news', such as how many of their visitors that go there, and die (of misadventure, or other causes), so an absence of evidence should not be misconstrued as evidence of absence. For example, between 1 Jan - 7 Feb 2002, there were four (4) diver deaths in the Caymans. With that knowledge in hand, now please go try to find documentation on each of these four known deaths. If you're lucky, you'll find an 8 Feb 02 newspaper (Cayman Net News) that reports on a woman who died and comments that she was their 4th diver death so far that year. Nothing was published on the first three deaths. So which number ... 1 or 4 ... do you believe? Or use? Regardless of what 'risky' activity we're talking about, the first step in its risk assessment is to make sure that we are not being fooled by incomplete data. With evidence such as the above that scuba deaths aren't "important" enough to make the news (3 times in 4 = 75%), activities that are highly similar (here's your connection to Discover SCUBA Diving) should generally be expected to have similarly poor reporting of its shortcomings too. FWIW, I recently heard that SNUBA operators in Cozumel were pitching to potential cruise ship customers that it is pefectly safe, because you never breathe compressed air. Similarly, there's Cayman "Sting Ray City" operations who are now claiming that all of their stingrays have had their barbs removed. Don't ever let mere facts impede making a profit, folks. -hh > For example, between 1 Jan - 7 Feb 2002, there were four (4) diver > deaths in the Caymans. With that knowledge in hand, now please go try > to find documentation on each of these four known deaths. If the four deaths is an accurate stat, then it was kept very quiet. We were on GC for two weeks in January that year diving every day and I vaguely remember one rumour circulating about a problem, but I can't remember ever confirming it. JF > > For example, between 1 Jan - 7 Feb 2002, there were four (4) diver > > deaths in the Caymans. With that knowledge in hand, now please go try > > to find documentation on each of these four known deaths. > > If the four deaths is an accurate stat, then it was kept very quiet. IMO, its reliable enough: I had quoted the newspaper article in a March 2002 post. In going back to check that newspapers archives, their Archives link to February 2002 is conveniently broken. The information's not been destroyed, merely made harder to find. Good luck finding a hardcopy. -hh >> Other examples include how OW-I divers routinely ignore their supposed >> 60fsw depth limit, often from literally Day 1 after getting their >> Certification, > Not a PADI issue . . . It is if the operation that takes them for the ride is affiliated with PADI. You know as well as anyone that PADI's standards extend to their dive operators. Lee >>> Other examples include how OW-I divers routinely ignore their supposed >>> 60fsw depth limit, often from literally Day 1 after getting their [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > PADI. You know as well as anyone that PADI's standards extend to their > dive operators. I don't see how or why. It's the individual diver's responsibility once he gets certified. There's no PADI police, and you wouldn't stand for them. > There's no PADI police, and you wouldn't stand for them. I don't hold a single PADI card. Why would I stand for PADI police. Lee > > And the tap dance for their new "Scuba Diver" class (which is half of > > OW-I) is that it requires the holder to only do dives with a Pro, but > > neglects to put any (Instructor:Student -type) ratio on the practice. FYI, it is three fifths of the open water diver course, not half. Jay http://www.divewithjay.com >> >>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/devon/5257704.stm >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >industry that is suggesting that they have finally gone too far with >aggressive business practices that compromise safety. The Undersea Journal has become the house rag for shops and resorts, with the occasional tidbit for instructors/DMs. I find it ironic that the glowing obit that they published for Ralph neglected the fact that he had as little to do with PADI outside of teaching IDCs as he could. He and Cronin were at odds for years over the direction PADI had taken. Ralph taught two styles of IDC. There was the "by the book". But he also taught "if you care to listen". >> PADI certifies you as Trained to do these 'advanced' dives NOT as >> qualified to do them. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >OW-I) is that it requires the holder to only do dives with a Pro, but >neglects to put any (Instructor:Student -type) ratio on the practice. I don't teach Scuba Diver. And since I was sued, I don't teach OW, either. >-hh Signaturedillon How much power does it take to run a server farm? A googlewatt. > I don't teach Scuba Diver. And since I was sued, I don't teach OW, > either. I stand corrected. Apparently I do know a PADI instructor that was sued. What happened? > I don't teach Scuba Diver. And since I was sued, I don't teach OW, > either. I wish I'd seen this before I responded to another post. It answers several questions I asked in that response. Lee >>>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/devon/5257704.stm >>> "I do not think someone with 47 dives is an experienced diver." [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > cross country trip through mountainous country, in bad weather, at night, > to a small field you've never landed at? Doesn't it??? >> As with most cases like this, you confuse 'trained' with qualified. >> PADI certifies you as Trained to do these 'advanced' dives NOT as >> qualified to do them. Bullshit. Certified means qualified. It always has . . . until PADI decided otherwise. Lee >>> As with most cases like this, you confuse 'trained' with qualified. >>> PADI certifies you as Trained to do these 'advanced' dives NOT as [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Lee No, it means passed a test >>Bullshit. Certified means qualified. It always has . . . until PADI >>decided otherwise. > No, it means passed a test Bullshit. A scale is certified to be accurate. A gauge is certified to be accurate. A Certified Public Accountant is certified to act consistently with the rules of the position. A Certified Audit is certified to be correct within the standards of the industry. . . . and a certified diver only means he passed a test . . . according to PADI. Lee > Doesn't it??? Of course it does... Not a single pilot with a freshly minted license has ever so screwed up that he got stuck in the air... *Every* one of them have managed to make it back down to earth... > You may get a pilots license but does that give you the experience to do a > cross country trip through mountainous country, in bad weather, at night, > to a small field you've never landed at? >> Doesn't it??? > > Of course it does... Not a single pilot with a freshly minted license > has ever so screwed up that he got stuck in the air... *Every* one of > them have managed to make it back down to earth... My point, yer honor. LD. >> Doesn't it??? > >Of course it does... Not a single pilot with a freshly minted license >has ever so screwed up that he got stuck in the air... *Every* one of >them have managed to make it back down to earth... I've always heard this about skydiving and scuba diving, but I guess it also applies to flying. It's all fun until you unexpectedly run out of air. Signaturedillon How much power does it take to run a server farm? A googlewatt. >>> Doesn't it??? >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > It's all fun until you unexpectedly run out of air. I don't know if it wasn't Miller or Seinfeld that said they weren't partaking in any sport where the main objective was to stay alive... > It's all fun until you unexpectedly run out of air. Hell, I ran out of air on a dive last week, but there was nothing unexpected about it. Lee > > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/devon/5257704.stm > > "I do not think someone with 47 dives is an experienced diver." > > I have done 15 dives, and I certainly don't think I am one. But how > many dives does it take? 48 I've logged 1156 and I'm still having fun and learning (proof: first-ever dive in a drysuit on Monday--whoo hooo!) Experienced? Not in a drysuit... Still vigilant? You bet. SignatureRapid Rick "Just Dive, Baby" > I have done 15 dives, and I certainly don't think I am one. But how many > dives does it take? > I've logged 1156 and I'm still having fun and learning (proof: first-ever > dive in a drysuit on Monday--whoo hooo!) > > Experienced? Not in a drysuit... Still vigilant? You bet. Great post. >> I have done 15 dives, and I certainly don't think I am one. But how many >> dives does it take? > >> After yet another trip on a charter with a dive instructor present (I > >> wasn't in his class, nor a customer of his shop, and the charter was [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > Lee I agree - i was digging at his anonymity. * > I agree - i was digging at his anonymity. Yeah, if they're going to be anonymous, at least they could have unique anonymous names... > >> After yet another trip on a charter with a dive instructor present (I > >> wasn't in his class, nor a customer of his shop, and the charter was [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > somebody, by virtue of the rating on their card, presumed to tell us all > about how we should dive their way. I haven't. Of course, I've never been diving off a boat... >> Why? Personally, I understand the sentiment fully, at least I think I >> do. >> I'll bet every one of us, at one time or another, has been on a boat >> where >> somebody, by virtue of the rating on their card, presumed to tell us all >> about how we should dive their way. > I haven't. Of course, I've never been diving off a boat... Be sure to take the specialty course. 8^) Lee > >> Why? Personally, I understand the sentiment fully, at least I think I > >> do. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Lee Actually, I guess I technically have been diving off a boat before (twice actually). Both times were trips to Jamaica. I don't really count them though because the boat only took us about 200 yards off shore and we only dove to about 45 feet. We had a DM with us, but he was Jamaican and pretty much didn't care what we did as long as we lived through it. >> >> Why? Personally, I understand the sentiment fully, at least I think I >> >> do. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > pretty > much didn't care what we did as long as we lived through it. Welcome to Florida diving. LD. >> Actually, I guess I technically have been diving off a boat before (twice >> actually). Both times were trips to Jamaica. I don't really count them [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> pretty >> much didn't care what we did as long as we lived through it. > Welcome to Florida diving. Except we occasionally get deeper than 45 feet and a lot further from shore than 200 yards. My last dive was about 22 miles from shore. Some during the trip were more than 70. Lee > My last dive was about 22 miles from shore. Some during the trip were more > than 70. So what did you kill? >> My last dive was about 22 miles from shore. Some during the trip were >> more >> than 70. > So what did you kill? 21 lobster, a half dozen large hogfish, a couple red grouper and one quite large black grouper that took my spear under a rock and refused to give it back. Damn, I hate killing something I can't eat. Lee > 21 lobster, a half dozen large hogfish, a couple red grouper and one quite > large black grouper that took my spear under a rock and refused to give it > back. Damn, I hate killing something I can't eat. Some damned fine eatin'. Sounds like you had a good time. > Some damned fine eatin'. Sounds like you had a good time. Having a good time is sort of a religion with me, but this trip pushed the concept. I don't know if it was something I ate or the cold I've been trying not to get for about a month, but I was not feeling 100% at the start of the trip. Seas were a bit rough and I didn't sleep well on the trip out. The morning briefing was a bit long for a group that had been diving from the same boat for quite a few years, but was OK until the backup captain took the motors out of gear and let the boat drift in 4-6 foot seas. When the boat started compound rocking, I didn't last long before rushing to the rail. I'm very fortunate in being one who, once sick, is over it until the next time. While I didn't keep much food down the first day, it wasn't a big deal. I watched my hydration and did all the dives that day without much trouble. Just before lunch, I noticed that everyone else was wearing a patch. I swallowed my pride (almost the only thing a swallowed that day) and borrowed one. The second day wasn't perfect, but it was better. I ate carefully and kept everything down. Unfortunately, another problem came up. Whatever I put in one end, soon came out the other end. It may have been part of what made me feel poorly in the first place or a reaction to the patch. Either way, I managed to time things to prevent problems, but after coming close to an accident during one dive, I exchanged my dive skin for shorts and a T shirt for the last two dives of the day . . . just in case. I took a couple of Imodium tablets and, by the third day, I was fine. One diver, that was new to the trip, had it much worse. He did the first couple of dives and spent the rest of the day in bed. He wasn't 100% the next day, but he was able to do all the dives. Some others were uncomfortable now and then too. We did very well on lobster, but not nearly as well as we usually do on fish. Overall the trip was a success and, despite the problems, I had a good time. I'll do it again, but will revisit the idea of freeshafting between now and then. If there had been a line on the shaft when I shot that black grouper, I probably would not have lost him or the shaft. I may look into a Riffe which I believe shoots almost as fast with a line as my Biller does without one. There was only one time during the entire trip where a quick reload might have been important and, in that one case, my buddy was ready for the shot I would have had to rush, even freeshafting, to make. Lee > I don't know if it was something I ate or the cold I've been trying not to > get for about a month, but I was not feeling 100% at the start of the trip. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > swallowed my pride (almost the only thing a swallowed that day) and borrowed > one. you SoFL guys are spoiled - long boat rides in sometimes rough seas are the norm in other places, like NC and SC. I usually don't get sick, but it happens every now and then, especially when drifting after a long run in 4-5 ft seas. I've never been sick when taking Bonine the night before. Cindy uses the patch if we have more than a 10 minute run. > We did very well on lobster, but not nearly as well as we usually do on > fish. Overall the trip was a success and, despite the problems, I had a > good time. how big is what you call a "large" hogfish? > I'll do it again, but will revisit the idea of freeshafting between now and > then. If there had been a line on the shaft when I shot that black grouper, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > might have been important and, in that one case, my buddy was ready for the > shot I would have had to rush, even freeshafting, to make. for shooting with a line, the Riffe is really quiet and fast because you don't have the ring slamming like you do with other guns. I can wrap it pretty fast too. I'm going to SC in a few weeks and hope to play with a Rhino gun for a bit. The guys there feeshaft them, but I want to try it both ways. Even getting seasick, it beats working al > you SoFL guys are spoiled - long boat rides in sometimes rough seas are > the norm in other places, like NC and SC. I usually don't get sick, but > it happens every now and then, especially when drifting after a long > run in 4-5 ft seas. I've never been sick when taking Bonine the night > before. Cindy uses the patch if we have more than a 10 minute run. You eastern guys are spoiled. 4-5 ft seas are average for the runs out to the channel islands here, 6-8' seas and more are common on the way to the outer islands. 10 minutes? Our closest islands are a couple hours. The outer islands are 5-6 hours. > how big is what you call a "large" hogfish? I only saw one on our last trip, out of 4 dives on the Boynton reefs. I'll bet he's dead now. Al Wells wrote > how big is what you call a "large" hogfish? 12 inches is legal. We try not to shoot anything less than 18. The small ones are stupid enough to be no challange at all and don't yield enough meat to be worth killing. The larger ones are more of a challange and yield enough meat to be worth the effort. My biggest ever hogfish was about 36 inches long. It won the pot the first year I went on the Tortugas trip. They don't get that big by being stupid. > I only saw one on our last trip, out of 4 dives on the Boynton reefs. > I'll bet he's dead now. I don't know how you managed to miss all the others. I saw at least a half dozen. Most were legal sized, one probably would have gone home with me had I been spearfishing. You're probably wrong about them still being alive. Spearfishing, even possession of spearfishing equipment if not unloaded and stowed, is illegal where we were. Lee >> you SoFL guys are spoiled - long boat rides in sometimes rough seas are >> the norm in other places, like NC and SC. I usually don't get sick, but [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > I only saw one on our last trip, out of 4 dives on the Boynton reefs. > I'll bet he's dead now. The one I saw on the Spiegel was one of the biggest I've ever seen. I've never tried to catch one with bare hands before. ;) LD. >>> My last dive was about 22 miles from shore. Some during the trip were >>> more [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > large black grouper that took my spear under a rock and refused to give it > back. Damn, I hate killing something I can't eat. Excellent. Glad to hear you had another freezer fillin' trip. LD. > Welcome to Florida diving. Nawh, in Florida diving, the DM is doing important things... Like staying aboard and ensuring the container of animal crackers remains well stocked... > Nawh, in Florida diving, the DM is doing important things... Like > staying aboard and ensuring the container of animal crackers remains > well stocked... Glad you reminded me. That's true of most DMs, but not, unfortunatately of Captain PADI. Remind me to take a tub of them down next time we do the Grove. Lee >> Nawh, in Florida diving, the DM is doing important things... Like >> staying aboard and ensuring the container of animal crackers remains [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > of Captain PADI. Remind me to take a tub of them down next time we do the > Grove. Take a cooler of beer too. That was an awfully long boat ride back sober. >>> Nawh, in Florida diving, the DM is doing important things... Like >>> staying aboard and ensuring the container of animal crackers remains [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Take a cooler of beer too. That was an awfully long boat ride back sober. Damned good idea. >> Welcome to Florida diving. > > Nawh, in Florida diving, the DM is doing important things... Like > staying aboard and ensuring the container of animal crackers remains > well stocked... ......where they *should* be! ;) LD. > ......where they *should* be! ;) Agreed... My expectations are that they provide me transportation to the dive site, they are still around after the dive, and they provide me transportation back to where I started... Inherent in this description is that the boat does not sink... Not stealing any of the stuff from my dive bag or tossing it overboard while I'm diving is also nice... >> ......where they *should* be! ;) > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > stuff from my dive bag or tossing it overboard while I'm diving is > also nice... Coffee! You forgot coffee! Actually, I think the coffee should be replaced by water-melon for us wwwussies. I've never seen a cup of coffee on a dive boat, EVER. LD. >>> ......where they *should* be! ;) >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Actually, I think the coffee should be replaced by water-melon for us > wwwussies. I've never seen a cup of coffee on a dive boat, EVER. Heck, I'd settle for cold water. Capt. PADI couldn't even get that right, having forgotten to refill the cooler before the boat went out on the afternoon dives. I was surprised at the difference after partaking of Splashdown's munificence the day prior. We didn't have breakfast before we left the hotel, so Janna went to buy a pack of muffins at the shop. Lynn told her they were comped as "boat snacks". Sure enough, they had an assortment of muffins and cookies and other stuff on the boat, along with an ice chest full of a huge assortment of sodas and bottled water and even expensive energy drinks, and a lunch spread when we returned. BTW, those energy drinks are a great replacement for coffee on a hot Florida sunshiny day. All that energy drink I peed over the Boynton reef system will surely thwart the encroaching sewage flow. >>>> ......where they *should* be! ;) >>> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > having forgotten to refill the cooler before the boat went out on the > afternoon dives. Yeah, that was a bit disappointing. I didn't realise that AJ was "Captain PADI" I must've missed that bit. > I was surprised at the difference after partaking of Splashdown's > munificence the day prior. We didn't have breakfast before we left the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > All that energy drink I peed over the Boynton reef system will surely > thwart the encroaching sewage flow. Loverly. The energy drinks go well with wodka too. ;0) LD. >> Heck, I'd settle for cold water. Capt. PADI couldn't even get that >> right, having forgotten to refill the cooler before the boat went out on >> the afternoon dives. > > Yeah, that was a bit disappointing. I didn't realise that AJ was "Captain > PADI" I must've missed that bit. I think Lee said he was the same Capt. PADI from his last trip, but apparently better behaved on ours (except that he forgot the damn water and limited our bottom time on the second dive). > Loverly. The energy drinks go well with wodka too. ;0) Yeah, well I was diving at the time. Next time, I guess I could bring a flask for the long boat ride back, but you really need a glass with ice to do that sort of thing properly. I managed to hold out until we got back to the dock and the bar about 100' down the way. Some local beer on tap, but served in those little plastic cups that you know I hate 'cause you only get a couple gulps out of each. Fortunately Janna kept ordering colorful sweet drinks (rum runners, singapore slings, bahama mamas, etc.) that she didn't care for, and I had to polish them all off to avoid them going to waste. I always think about poor starving children in India when I see an abandoned drink and get racked with guilt if I don't finish it. Not too bad with the beer chaser, sort of a sweet and sour effect. What a great idea to have a dive shop/dive boat right next to a bar. >> Yeah, that was a bit disappointing. I didn't realise that AJ was "Captain >> PADI" I must've missed that bit. > I think Lee said he was the same Capt. PADI from his last trip, but > apparently better behaved on ours (except that he forgot the damn water > and limited our bottom time on the second dive). He was. I didn't know he forgot water. I damned sure noticed the lack of any kind of snack, though. It's not like I didn't tell him the trip before. I didn't have any problems with AJ on our trip. I did notice he tried to limit the second dive, but I didn't notice that he was successful. > I always think about poor starving children in India when I see an > abandoned drink and get racked with guilt if I don't finish it. Not too > bad with the beer chaser, sort of a sweet and sour effect. What a great > idea to have a dive shop/dive boat right next to a bar. I have a T shirt that Jayna bought for me a few years ago. It reads "Drink your beer, there are sober people in China." Lee >> Yeah, that was a bit disappointing. I didn't realise that AJ was "Captain >> PADI" I must've missed that bit. > > I think Lee said he was the same Capt. PADI from his last trip, but > apparently better behaved on ours (except that he forgot the damn water > and limited our bottom time on the second dive). I honestly think you need to look AJ in the eye when he's "limiting" bottom time or applying other rules. I think he's been more than cool with our group on both occassions I've been ou |
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