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Scuba Forum / General / September 2006Need Beginner Equipment Help
Last night I started my "in pool" cause and unfortunetly all we got to do was a lot of course work and then 20 min or treading mater and 26 laps in the pool. Next week we'll be getting in the gear but I'm excited. Anyways with that in mind I still need to get my own gear, just to put things into perspective I wanted to buy at the dive shop there but a set of CRESSI FROG fins were $139, I can find them online for $53 so it looks like I'm going to be better off purchasing online and trying to get a package. SO here's the questions. 1) I tried on a bunch of masks and they all feel fine and seal properly. I don't need corrective lenses so what mask can you guys recommend for a newbie? Is the puge hole worth it? What about angled glass to see down better? 2) For those that are diving around the Great Lakes in Sept-Oct what thickness of wetsuit do you recommend? Things to look for in a wetsuit? Can anyone recommend one product over the other? For a beginner. When I was at the dive shop they had some Cressi Frog Fins that I liked. Opinions? The small difference in money isn't an issue $200-$250 for a package... Tusa Olympic Package http://www.leisurepro.com/Prod/CategoryID_1904/Context_948/Sort_Stock/DescSort_0 /PCKDS19.html?Hit=1 Cressi-Sub Horizon Pro (Compared to FROG FINS?) http://www.leisurepro.com/Prod/CategoryID_1904/Context_948/Sort_Price/DescSort_0 /PCKDS18.html?Hit=1 Sheerwood Avid-Gold or Mares Optimum????? http://www.leisurepro.com/Prod/PCKDS20.html http://www.leisurepro.com/Prod/PCKDS21.html Can anyone hep or is this just preference? > Last night I started my "in pool" cause and unfortunetly all we got to do > was a lot of course work and then 20 min or treading mater and 26 laps in > the pool. You have to do it sometime. > Next week we'll be getting in the gear but I'm excited. We understand completely. > Anyways with that in mind I still need to get my own gear, just to put > things into [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > be better off purchasing online and trying to get a package. SO here's the > questions. Once you've decided exactly what you want, buying it on the internet is fine. The added risk is that what you will get will not be what you bargained for or, worse, that you'll pay for something you never get, only to find the seller isn't around any more. If you stick to established internet sources, neither should be a particularly problem I recommend against package deals. They often sound really good, but usually contain one or more elements that you would not have chosen if you had a chance to try it before you bought it. Of course, if you can find a package that includes items you are sure are what you want, again, there's no harm in saving money by buying from those that offer the best deal. In your shopping, be sure to check www.diversdirect.com . They offer some very nice deals on line AND have several retail stores. > 1) I tried on a bunch of masks and they all feel fine and seal properly. I > don't need corrective lenses so what mask can you guys recommend for a > newbie? Is the puge hole worth it? What about angled glass to see down > better? The don't all feel fine and seal properly. If you think they do, then get someone who knows what they're doing to help you pick one. If you make a mistake on the mask, you won't be happy until you've corrected it and good masks aren't all cheap. The purge hole gets mixed reviews. Generally speaking, those with significant experience don't find it much of a help and prefer to avoid complicating things with devices that sometimes have problems. Purge valves seem to attract bits of sand, shell, weed, etc. that keep them from sealing and cause masks to leak. They don't all do it, all the time, but it happens. Purge valves located in the soft portion of the mask, directly under the nose piece, involve something hard right where you reach to pinch your nose while equalizing pressure. That can make it slightly harder to equalize and does expose the soft portions of the mask to unnecessary wear. If you chose a purge valve mask, look for one with the valve in a hard portion of the mask, the lens for example. Masks designed to increase the vertical field of view seem like a good idea and, if they really fit you, will be something you'll like a lot. I have two different brands, a Cressi Big Eyes and a Mares version of the same mask. Both seemed to fit OK in the shop. Both leak like a sieve in the water. Unless you have a couple hundred bucks to throw away, try to avoid making the same mistake. One way to improve odds in your favor is to try on masks with a snorkel or spare scuba mouthpiece in your mouth. The shape of your face, right where the mask seals, is different with a mouthpiece in than without. > 2) For those that are diving around the Great Lakes in Sept-Oct what > thickness of wetsuit do you recommend? Things to look for in a wetsuit? I'm a warm water dvier, but even I can figure this one out. The first thing so look for in thermal protection for the Great Lakes in September - October is the words "Dry Suit." > Tusa Olympic Package > http://www.leisurepro.com/Prod/CategoryID_1904/Context_948/Sort_Stock/DescSort_0 /PCKDS19.html?Hit=1 [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > http://www.leisurepro.com/Prod/PCKDS20.html > http://www.leisurepro.com/Prod/PCKDS21.html Notice there are no Scuba Pro, Atomic or Apeks packages in your list? Guess which regulators get the best ratings. Shops put packages together to entice people who don't know how to tell the difference, to buy something they, otherwise, might not buy. Be careful. Check, try, select, each significant component to be sure it is what you want and, only then, buy it as a package. Lee Lee - THANK YOU Once again you have been a wealth of information. The big problem I'm having is that the dive shop I'm at does not have much equipment at all. The only fins I could really try were CRESSI FROG fins and they seemed fine. Also the shop will not let us try out any of the equipment before buying so either way I'm not going to get the chance to try it out. The reason we didn't get in the pool the first night is because we didn't have our "own" equipment and they wouldn't let us use any of their's to try out. I checked divers discount but wasn't impressed with there packages. I'm not buying a regulator right now just (fins, boots, snorkel, mask, gloves and weight belt) In most cases I buy "the best" but I want to make sure that I'm serious about this before I invest way to much money. Right now I'm thinking buy something middle of the road and find out waht works and waht doesn't. How many people can say that they still have their "First" equipment? >> Last night I started my "in pool" cause and unfortunetly all we got to do >> was a lot of course work and then 20 min or treading mater and 26 laps in [quoted text clipped - 89 lines] > > Lee > Once again you have been a wealth of information. The big problem I'm > having is that the dive shop I'm at does not have much equipment at all. The [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > something middle of the road and find out waht works and waht doesn't. How > many people can say that they still have their "First" equipment? If you call the guys at Leisure Pro, they will make you a package deal on anything they have. They are good merchants. I think I said it before - the Sherwood magnum II mask (or Genesis, or any one of the other names it's sold under - the guys at LP know) fits most people. Another fairly cheap mask that fits alot of people is the Poseidon Technica or something like that. I think the Cressi Frogs are the perfect newbie fins, but I'm sure you'll find other opinions just as valid as mine. I'm outa here, headed for Brockville for the weekend. Al I was planning on finishing my open water in Brockville. My Out-Laws live there and I'll be spending a lot of Sept. in Brockville. Guess I'll see how the class goes first. >> Once again you have been a wealth of information. The big problem I'm >> having is that the dive shop I'm at does not have much equipment at all. [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > I'm outa here, headed for Brockville for the weekend. > Once again you have been a wealth of information. The big problem I'm > having is that the dive shop I'm at does not have much equipment at all. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > so > either way I'm not going to get the chance to try it out. Find a new dive shop. Travel to find one if necessary. You don't > The reason we didn't get in the pool the first night is because we didn't > have our "own" > equipment and they wouldn't let us use any of their's to try out. I > checked > divers discount but wasn't impressed with there packages. You have got to be sh.tting us. I've never heard of a shop providing instruction that does not also provide for equipment. Sometimes you have to rent, sometimes its included in the base price, but never have I heard of one where it's not available at all. > I'm not buying a regulator right now just (fins, boots, snorkel, mask, > gloves and weight belt) Buy the mask to fit, regardless of the brand name. Buy the cheapest snorkel you can get. It's rarely used when diving. Buy boots and fins together. They need to work together on your feet. If your gloves don't need to provide thermal protection, get some that are stretchy on the top and reinforced on the palm and bottom of the fingers. Tusa makes some that fit well and are durable. So do other manufacturers. Get a mesh weightbelt designed for soft weights (it will hold hard ones too) wherever you like. > In most cases I buy "the best" but I want to make sure that I'm serious > about this before I invest way to much money. Right > now I'm thinking buy something middle of the road and find out waht works > and waht doesn't. How many people can say that > they still have their "First" equipment? I would have if it had not been stolen. I would not, however still be using it. I bought my first equipment sometime in the mid 60's. If possible, try renting until you have a better idea what you want. Scuba equipment is expensive and you're not likely to recover more than half your money on a resale, if that. > I think the Cressi Frogs are the perfect newbie fins, but I'm sure > you'll find other opinions just as valid as mine. I don't know a lot about the Cressi Frogs. I can tell you that I sold a brand new pair of Cressi Rondine fins a week after trying Mares Plana Avanti fins for the first time. > I'm outa here, headed for Brockville for the weekend. Have fun. A friend originally signed us both up and at that time was told that we would be allowed to try some gear for the first few dives until we found what we like and bought our own. We arrived with that intention, however the owner told us that, that was not the case. We decided to do the water portion with just any mask and fins but even that wasn't an option when it came time. We were told to have our equipment for the next class. I agree with everyone about trying first and then buying but there isn't an option. I could dry fit everything and then buy, but not water test anything. >> Once again you have been a wealth of information. The big problem I'm >> having is that the dive shop I'm at does not have much equipment at all. [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] > > Have fun. > I agree with everyone about trying first and then buying but there isn't > an option. > We were told to have our equipment for the next class. Damn. When this is all said and done, please post as much information as possible on the shop that's jerking you around like this. Dive advertising is word of mouth and our mouths are about to spread the word about the shop you're using. It does not pay to play that kind of game with new divers. Here's my best suggestion at this point. This is all brand names I know from personal experience. It's all quality and may, in fact, suit you for a very long time. On the other hand, you may find something you like better tomorrow. Given the time frames and issues you are faced with, I think it's a decent way to go for now. I suggest you buy everything from a single source, at the same time, both because I know the source and because that way, you're likely to reduce shipping charges and ensure that everything arrives on time. Divers Direct, unlike Leisure Pro and some other internet organizations, is an authorized dealer for everything they sell. Go on line to www.diversdirect.com and buy the Tusa Liberator Combination mask and snorkel package http://www.diversdirect.com/item/Tusa%20-%20Liberator%20Combo%20Set_ID42468 . It's a quality mask and a decent snorkel for $29.00. They seem to fit a wide range or people and are a good value for the money. I have three of them. Go to http://www.diversdirect.com/item/Mares%20-%20Plana%20Avanti%20X3%20Fin_ID19598 and buy the Mares Plana Avanti X3 fins for $49.00. They may not be what you finally chose, but every Mares fin I've ever used has been good. I use their full foot fins for both diving and snorkeling. You need open heel/strap fins and booties for thermal protection. Booties are also available at http://www.diversdirect.com/group/Booties%20&%20Accessories_ID105 . They have both low and high top booties from Mares. I know very little about booties, but buying the ones from Mares seems like a good idea. They're more likely to fit the Mares fins well. The more expensive high top ones are only $30. Get a Cordura Weight belt from the same site for $18.00 http://www.diversdirect.com/item/Cordura%20Weight%20Belt_ID122. You may not wind up with exactly what you'll eventually want, but that will put you in a quality mask, fins, snorkel, booties and weightbelt for $126, if I did my addition right, plus shipping. Come back to this group, or find an experienced dive friend before you buy the rest of your equipment. We can steer you to some excellent equipment at reasonable prices as well as away from some of the junk being pushed by some on line dealers. Lee Lee when I visit the diversdirect website I can't search for half the item you listed unless I use your links. Am I missing something? A search for fins shows one set... >> I agree with everyone about trying first and then buying but there isn't >> an option. [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > > Lee > Lee when I visit the diversdirect website I can't search for half the item > you listed unless I use your links. Am I missing something? A search for > fins shows one set... Damn. I copied the links directly from my screen and when I checked them from your response, they still work for me. Sorry. Try this. For the fins: http://www.diversdirect.com/ then click on Scuba Fins and then click on Open Heel Fins. The Mares Plana Avanti X3 Fins are about half way down the page. From the same Scuba Fins selection, you can chose Booties and Accessories. The short and tall Mares ones are there. For the Mask and snorkel: http://www.diversdirect.com/ then click on Scuba Masks, than Value Combos. The Tusa Liberator Combo is the third one on the list. For the weight belt, http://www.diversdirect.com/ then click on Diving Weights and Belts. The cordura one is there. Do not buy your weights on line without carefully checking shipping costs. You can usually buy weights locally for less than you can on line. Lee Lee I was missing the step where I click on "open heel" thanks. Who would think that I'm suppose to be I.T. :-) > Lee > > I was missing the step where I click on "open heel" thanks. Who would > think that I'm suppose to be I.T. :-) I'm the technical expert on several of the systems my agency uses. I have more trouble getting IT people to follow directions than I ever do with those less technically competent. Scuba diving is not the only thing where familiarity breeds carelessness. 8^) Lee > > Lee > > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > more trouble getting IT people to follow directions than I ever do with > those less technically competent. Ditto, only in reverse. I admit I'm bad this way. I figure I have more I.T. skills than most people so I never follow the instructions. And now I had to post that fact publicly :-( >I admit I'm bad this way. I figure I have more I.T. skills than most people >so I never follow the instructions. And now I had to post that fact >publicly :-( Welcome to the club. >I admit I'm bad this way. I figure I have more I.T. skills than most people >so I never follow the instructions. And now I had to post that fact publicly >:-( Some have - no - skills and still adhere to that philosophy! (As I sit here and watch the C/F in the office as the new ISP istalls the latest and greatest in cable internet service and the sh.t hits the fan.) Rick Simms "California, the only state where a high school can issue a kid a condom then expels him for praying for a chance to use it." > A friend originally signed us both up and at that time was told that we > would be allowed to try some gear for the first few dives until we found [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > with everyone about trying first and then buying but there isn't an option. > I could dry fit everything and then buy, but not water test anything. So what's the guy going to do if you show up with good quality borrowed gear? If he refuses to let you finish the course just get your money back. Then find a decent instructor who's interested in teaching you to dive, not just sell you gear. Betcha if you let us know the area you're in someone here will be able to help out with gear. If nothing else we could almost all outfit you in the stuff we bought too quickly when we were starting out. I still have all of mine, barely used. The only thing that I still use is the Genesis mask (like Al mentioned). JF I'd like to say you guys rock but thats an understatement. For the time being I'm not mentioning the dive shop but I'm already looking for another place to do my open water dive, hopefully Brockville. I'm actually located in the Sarnia, Ontario area. Honestly it could just be that I was having a shitty first night at the dive locating, we'll see how the rest of it goes. AND WE GOT HERE BY "WORD OF MOUTH". I don't think the guy cares if I show up with sh.t equipment they just don't have equipment for us to borrow or use. I'd love to borrow gear from someone to try out but by the time I pay the shipping I could probably buy a lot of the stuff. So far the best dive experience I've had is in this newsgroup. As always Lee THANKS. >A friend originally signed us both up and at that time was told that we >would be allowed to try some gear for the first few dives until we found [quoted text clipped - 60 lines] >> >> Have fun. > I'd like to say you guys rock but thats an understatement. For the time > being I'm not mentioning the dive shop but I'm already looking for another [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > shipping I could probably buy a lot of the stuff. So far the best dive > experience I've had is in this newsgroup. I'm in Stratford. If you want to make the drive some night we can try a bunch of stuff on you (try it in the pool if you want) and set you up with most or all of what you need to do the course. Then you can dive it for a bit and figure out what you really need and want. The only thing that might be a problem is the regs. I gave my starter set away and my spares are already loaned out to a friend. I'd better keep my Apeks handy. Email me if you want to get together. JF > A friend originally signed us both up and at that time was told that we > would be allowed to try some gear for the first few dives until we found [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > with everyone about trying first and then buying but there isn't an option. > I could dry fit everything and then buy, but not water test anything. Go to your local Big 5 sports (or similar) and pay $40 for a mask/fins/snorkel combo. After the class, if you decide you're interested in continuing, you can get some real equipment (I suggest not buying it from the people who are giving the class). My wife still uses a mask from one of those cheap combos becuase it fits better than anything else she's tried. > > many people can say that they still have their "First" equipment? > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I think I said it before - the Sherwood magnum II mask (or Genesis, or > any one of the other names it's sold under - the guys at LP know) Well, there ya go. That's my favorite mask(s). >fits > most people. Another fairly cheap mask that fits alot of people is the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > I'm outa here, headed for Brockville for the weekend. > How many people can say that they still have their "First" equipment? Around here, many of us can't even *remember* their first equipment... I've still got *some* of my early equipment... > Lee - THANK YOU > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > something middle of the road and find out waht works and waht doesn't. How > many people can say that they still have their "First" equipment? I'm still diving my first reg . . . Sherwood Magnum. I'm about ready to upgrade but there's nothing wrong with my regs. Now that I'm a much better diver, I've been noticing how they breathe more than I used to and I want something more high performance. But as far as I'm concerned there's not a darn thing wrong with getting those regs if you are a beginner. They'll last you for years and you won't be sorry. 400+/- dives on them now. Lots of dive operators use Sherwood regs in their rental gear. My first mask was a Sherwood Genesis and then I bought a bunch of masks since then. My first mask was/is still the best mask I've ever had. A couple of years ago I replaced it with a Magnum, I think it is called. It's the same mask with a new name. I love it almost as much as my first mask, which by the way, is still useable and still my favorite . . .but it's pink. I carry it as my spare. > I'm still diving my first reg . . . Sherwood Magnum. I dove one of those for years. Reliable as a brick, cheap to service, absolutely nothing wrong with them. I think it is still in a box in my moms garage. > I'm about ready to > upgrade but there's nothing wrong with my regs. Now that I'm a much better > diver, I've been noticing how they breathe more than I used to and I want > something more high performance. If you never listen to another thing I say, or have ever said before, get an Apeks. > > I'm still diving my first reg . . . Sherwood Magnum. > > I dove one of those for years. Reliable as a brick, cheap to service, > absolutely nothing wrong with them. > > I think it is still in a box in my moms garage. That has to be the easiest reg in the world to service. It doesn't have many parts. When I was learning to service regs, my mentor gave me one of those disassembled, in a box, and told me to put it together and make it work. The first thing I said was "there aren't enough parts here to make a reg", and he told me to just figure it out. > If you never listen to another thing I say, or have ever said before, get an > Apeks. For warm water recreational diving, that AT20 or whatever it was looks like a real bargain at $239 US. Chilly, see the recent thread on this. Please note that even though the clueless DIR drones will recommend Apeks for the reasons they memorized, the guys who go inside them and really know won't buy anything else. After I bought my first 2, I switched all of my working regs to Apeks and sold or sidelined the rest, except for the Beuchat I use for single tank diving (which is pretty much an Apeks clone). for the record, the Apeks seats last longer than the Beuchat. > Please note that even though the clueless DIR drones will recommend > Apeks for the reasons they memorized, the guys who go inside them and > really know won't buy anything else. Complete service in about 15 minutes, if I let it dry. <snip> > I'm still diving my first reg . . . Sherwood Magnum. I'm about ready to > upgrade but there's nothing wrong with my regs. Now that I'm a much better [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > which by the way, is still useable and still my favorite . . .but it's pink. > I carry it as my spare. Don't forget about the Chiquita banana. > > Lee - THANK YOU > > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > I'm still diving my first reg . . . Sherwood Magnum. Oops, I meant Maximus. (snip) > having is that the dive shop I'm at does not have much equipment at all. The > only fins I could really try were CRESSI FROG fins and they seemed fine. > Also the shop will not let us try out any of the equipment before buying so > either way I'm not going to get the chance to try it out. The reason we > didn't get in the pool the first night is because we didn't have our "own" > equipment and they wouldn't let us use any of their's to try out. I checked > divers discount but wasn't impressed with there packages. Then I would tell them to strick it (politely, or unpolitely, your choice). Would you buy a car from a garage that didn't allow you to testdrive a car first? Would you buy a house that they didn't allow you see inside, etc (if possible?) Tell them you don't like their sales attitude, and that you will tell anyone who asks you the same. That kinda sh.t bugs me. I am in a similar situation at the moment. I have bought fins (mares quattro), gloves, mask, and snorkel at the moment. I am waiting until I can a) afford it, and b) when I figure which I can find to suite me. Thinkjing again, those diveshop guys sound really lame.. bernard Bernard, if you read the rest of the post you'll find out that one of the members here "JOF" lent me a ton of equipment until I can figure out what it is I like and don't like. I bought myself some gloves, mask and soft weight belt. The rest I'm still trying out until I determine how much I like the sport and, pardon the pun, "How deep I want to get into it"... How many of us have started a sport and loved it, bought all the gear and then a year from no never did it? I've heard the hardest thing about diving is finding someone to do it with. One of the fins the JOF lent me were Scuba Pro jet fins, there not as long and I love them. Also have a look at the spring straps that you can get they make putting on the fins much easier. >> having is that the dive shop I'm at does not have much equipment at all. >> The [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > > bernard >> 2) For those that are diving around the Great Lakes in Sept-Oct what >> thickness of wetsuit do you recommend? Things to look for in a wetsuit? > >I'm a warm water dvier, but even I can figure this one out. The first thing >so look for in thermal protection for the Great Lakes in September - October >is the words "Dry Suit." Bullshit. September-October is going to give you the warmest lake temps in the Great Lakes. He doesn't know what he's talking about. A 6-7mm Farmer John will be fine. You can even do a 7mm "singlet" if you want, I've done 4 dives on the Madeira (North Shore of Lake Superior) now where the water temps were in the 30s at the lowest depths and the only things that got cold were my hands and around my face but it was no big deal. All dives were done in a 6.5mm Farmer John. > Bullshit. September-October is going to give you the warmest lake > temps in the Great Lakes. He doesn't know what he's talking about. A [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > only things that got cold were my hands and around my face but it was > no big deal. All dives were done in a 6.5mm Farmer John. How many dives total? >> Bullshit. September-October is going to give you the warmest lake >> temps in the Great Lakes. He doesn't know what he's talking about. A [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >How many dives total? A whopping grand total of 21. > On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 13:37:18 -0400, "Lee Bell" > Bullshit. September-October is going to give you the warmest lake [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > only things that got cold were my hands and around my face but it was > no big deal. All dives were done in a 6.5mm Farmer John. Ya, that and your shiny new C-card make you an expert. >> On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 13:37:18 -0400, "Lee Bell" >> Bullshit. September-October is going to give you the warmest lake [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >Ya, that and your shiny new C-card make you an expert. I bet I have more dives in Superior than Lee. I'll also bet that a few of folks I dive with have more dives than Lee and also have hundreds in Superior that will tell you the same thing. Guys that have dove the Kamloops and the Gunilda. >>> On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 13:37:18 -0400, "Lee Bell" >>> Bullshit. September-October is going to give you the warmest lake [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >> > I bet I have more dives in Superior than Lee. He'd still dive better than you, hands down, even on yer home turf. LD. >>>> On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 13:37:18 -0400, "Lee Bell" >>>> Bullshit. September-October is going to give you the warmest lake [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >He'd still dive better than you, hands down, even on yer home turf. Define better. > Define better. Get over yourself. Lee was diving when you were sh.tting yellow. >> Define better. > >Get over yourself. > >Lee was diving when you were sh.tting yellow. Nothing to get over. He was again in error. > >> Define better. > > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > > Nothing to get over. He was again in error. Oh, we get it. you are still sh.tting yellow . .well, excuse us. snort >>> Define better. >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> > Nothing to get over. He was again in error. Who, me? Again? Bwaaaahwahwahwahwahwahwahw! LD. spitting coffee AGAIN. >>>> Define better. >>> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >LD. spitting coffee AGAIN. Hopefully not good coffee. But better than spewing beer. Or whisky.  Signaturedillon How much power does it take to run a server farm? A googlewatt. > Lee was diving when you were sh.tting yellow. And how have you gained such indepth knowledge of John's corn consumption? <grin> >> Define better. > > Get over yourself. > > Lee was diving when you were sh.tting yellow. I got 5 bucks says at 130' he still does. LD. >>He'd still dive better than you, hands down, even on yer home turf. >> > Define better. Okay. ---> Lee Bell <--- Curtis >>>He'd still dive better than you, hands down, even on yer home turf. >>> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > ---> Lee Bell <--- It would be interesting to see him in 39 degree water. Funny thing is, I don't have any warm water dives. I wonder what I'll be like in 84 degree water. >>>>He'd still dive better than you, hands down, even on yer home turf. >>> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > is, I don't have any warm water dives. I wonder what I'll be like in > 84 degree water. Wilty???? > >>>He'd still dive better than you, hands down, even on yer home turf. > >>> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > is, I don't have any warm water dives. I wonder what I'll be like in > 84 degree water. Say . . what happened to your big dive trip to Florida last month? >>>>He'd still dive better than you, hands down, even on yer home turf. >>>> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> > It would be interesting to see him in 39 degree water. You prolly wouldn't see Lee, and you definitely wouldn't see me in 39degree water.........we know better! Funny thing > is, I don't have any warm water dives. I wonder what I'll be like in > 84 degree water. Dangerous, no matter what the temp. It's not the temp, it's yer mindset. LD. > >>>> On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 13:37:18 -0400, "Lee Bell" > >>>> Bullshit. September-October is going to give you the warmest lake [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > > Define better. Would make you look like chopped liver, no matter what body of water you were in. Jeezus. * >> >>>> On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 13:37:18 -0400, "Lee Bell" >> >>>> Bullshit. September-October is going to give you the warmest lake [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > * I see *everybody* beat me to this one. ;0) LD. > >> I bet I have more dives in Superior than Lee. > > > >He'd still dive better than you, hands down, even on yer home turf. > > > Define better. Good Lord. What a piece of work. >>>>> On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 13:37:18 -0400, "Lee Bell" >>>>> Bullshit. September-October is going to give you the warmest lake [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >> > Define better. adj: 1. of a more excellent or outstanding or desireable kind. 2. to a greater degree. 3. more usefully or advantageously. 4.that which is better (the better of the two). 5.one's superior in ability or rank. 6. to improve on: surpass. 7. become better: improve. All right out of the Oxford English sitting right here next to my pc. I'd also say more skillful, more competent, more knowledgeable, more trained, more practised and more hqandsome (though that one is questionable). GET IT??? LD. >>>>>> On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 13:37:18 -0400, "Lee Bell" >>>>>> Bullshit. September-October is going to give you the warmest lake [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] >questionable). >GET IT??? But how do you make a good dive better? A dive where nothing goes wrong, your buoyancy is perfect and you have a great time. > But how do you make a good dive better? A dive where nothing goes > wrong, your buoyancy is perfect and you have a great time. You have to learn to distinguish between good dives and good divers. A good diver expects to have good dives. A less than good diver is pleasantly surprised when a dive ends up good. A good dive just goes in the books. A good diver knows he can always get better. You and I and others here who learned to dive in cold water probably have an advantage when we go to warm water. Those who learned in warm water aren't prepared for the 7mm suits and hoods and heavy gloves or possibly even the braille diving conditions. Perhaps those who are familiar with drysuit diving won't have as much trouble. I've dived with Lee and given his obvious skill and comfort level he'd probably make the transition fairly easily. The biggest problem would be putting up with his incessant whining about how cold the water was and about how teeny our Great Lakes lobsters were. JF >> But how do you make a good dive better? A dive where nothing goes >> wrong, your buoyancy is perfect and you have a great time. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >pleasantly surprised when a dive ends up good. A good dive just goes in >the books. A good diver knows he can always get better. I always expect to have a good dive. That might not have been the case for the first few dives but it certainly is the case now. >You and I and others here who learned to dive in cold water probably >have an advantage when we go to warm water. Those who learned in warm [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >be putting up with his incessant whining about how cold the water was >and about how teeny our Great Lakes lobsters were. Putting on the gear really does suck. I don't like diving with a hood most of all. But, it keeps me warm. On my last dive Sunday, it took longer to get my gear on than it did for the dive. We had about a 25-30 MPH SE wind that caused a 2 foot surf. I had a hell of a time just putting on my fins in the water. Well, part of the delay was my buddy losing his gloves. It'll be nice to just put on a shorty and 8 pounds of weight in my BC and hop into the water. > It'll be nice > to just put on a shorty and 8 pounds of weight in my BC and hop into > the water. I always feel like I've forgotten something when I dive in warm water. JF >> It'll be nice >>to just put on a shorty and 8 pounds of weight in my BC and hop into [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > JF Your golf clubs??? > >> It'll be nice > >>to just put on a shorty and 8 pounds of weight in my BC and hop into [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > > Your golf clubs??? Never. I don't leave home unarmed. JF >>>>It'll be nice >>>>to just put on a shorty and 8 pounds of weight in my BC and hop into [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > JF yer learnin' > > It'll be nice > > to just put on a shorty and 8 pounds of weight in my BC and hop into [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > JF No kidding......... * > Putting on the gear really does suck. I don't like diving with a hood > most of all. But, it keeps me warm. The blinkers....how about those blinkers??? LD. >> But how do you make a good dive better? A dive where nothing goes >> wrong, your buoyancy is perfect and you have a great time. > > You have to learn to distinguish between good dives and good divers. Don't waste yer breath John. This is purely fer entertainment. ;0) LD. >>>>> I bet I have more dives in Superior than Lee. >>>> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >> > But how do you make a good dive better? Ask Lee. He could help you if he felt so inclined. A dive where nothing goes > wrong, your buoyancy is perfect and you have a great time. Let me know when you have 30 dives. I'll have a beer in your honor. LD. >>Ya, that and your shiny new C-card make you an expert. >> > I bet I have more dives in Superior than Lee. Yah! You're the big kid in the playground. And I have more dives than you in Dalkey sound. And our temps last week would be a little lower than 38 deg F Does that make me better than you? > few of folks I dive with have more dives than Lee And thats going to help you how? >>> 2) For those that are diving around the Great Lakes in Sept-Oct what >>> thickness of wetsuit do you recommend? Things to look for in a wetsuit? [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > only things that got cold were my hands and around my face but it was > no big deal. All dives were done in a 6.5mm Farmer John. Yeah, but there's only one superman. > >> 2) For those that are diving around the Great Lakes in Sept-Oct what > >> thickness of wetsuit do you recommend? Things to look for in a wetsuit? [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > only things that got cold were my hands and around my face but it was > no big deal. All dives were done in a 6.5mm Farmer John. And when your RMV reaches the point where you can do dives longer than 20 minutes, you'll be full up to your eyeballs of being wet and cold and miserable and will want a drysuit. Personally, if I'm going to all the trouble and expense of booking a charter and gearing up, I like to figure on nice long dives. After 50 minutes or so at 36-40ª in a wetsuit, I'm damn cold. And usually still have a good deal more deco to do. I grew to love that 20 ft thermocline - sometimes it was 70ª upu there on the line...... * I have several hundred dives in the collective Great Lakes, and only maybe a dozen were made in a wetsuit. It was a rare diver indeed who was on any of our tech boats in a wetsuit. >> >> 2) For those that are diving around the Great Lakes in Sept-Oct what >> >> thickness of wetsuit do you recommend? Things to look for in a wetsuit? [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >to do. I grew to love that 20 ft thermocline - sometimes it was 70ª >upu there on the line...... All of my Superior dives have been longer than 40 minutes. One was 52 minutes. Some part of all of those dives were above the thermocline though. >* > >I have several hundred dives in the collective Great Lakes, and only >maybe a dozen were made in a wetsuit. It was a rare diver indeed who >was on any of our tech boats in a wetsuit. Tech diving is a different story. I'm only diving to 80 feet or less on the Madeira. My safety stop usually consists of a 200 yard swim in 15 to 20 feet of water back to the "beach" so it's almost too warm under those conditions. I wouldn't even think of diving the Kamloops without a drysuit but again, that's a tech dive. No charter up there will even bring you out to it without one. > Tech diving is a different story. I'm only diving to 80 feet or less > on the Madeira. My safety stop usually consists of a 200 yard swim in > 15 to 20 feet of water back to the "beach" so it's almost too warm > under those conditions. 200yds HORIZONTALLY??? My God man, have you ever heard of a drift dive? LD. > September-October is going to give you the warmest lake > temps in the Great Lakes. For the Northern Hemisphere, because of thermal lag, the warmest temperatures are typically August into September. By October, things are getting chilly. > A 6-7mm Farmer John will be fine. You can even do a 7mm "singlet" if > you want, For right now it may, but for the rest of the dive season, most people are going to want more thermal protection, and of the two options available, getting a drysuit is the cheaper & less equipment intensive option. > I've done 4 dives on the Madeira (North Shore of Lake Superior) now > where the water temps were in the 30s at the lowest depths and the > only things that got cold were my hands and around my face but it was > no big deal. All dives were done in a 6.5mm Farmer John. Back when I was a novice, I also did some freshwater dives in <40F water in a full 1/4" (7mm) Farmer John. The novelty gets old, fast. Especially when your buddies won't let you sleep in the car on the ride home because of the realization of previously undiagnoised hypothermia. As a general rule of thumb, as soon as one does a warmwater dive, your tolerance for freezing your a.s off in coldwater just to see mud and rocks will be significantly reduced. -hh > As a general rule of thumb, as soon as one does a warmwater dive, your > tolerance for freezing your a.s off in coldwater just to see mud and > rocks will be significantly reduced. And it only gets worse with time. >> September-October is going to give you the warmest lake >> temps in the Great Lakes. > >For the Northern Hemisphere, because of thermal lag, the warmest >temperatures are typically August into September. By October, things >are getting chilly. Not what they tell me about Superior. >> A 6-7mm Farmer John will be fine. You can even do a 7mm "singlet" if >> you want, [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >Especially when your buddies won't let you sleep in the car on the ride >home because of the realization of previously undiagnoised hypothermia. I have yet to have a problem with the cold water. >As a general rule of thumb, as soon as one does a warmwater dive, your >tolerance for freezing your a.s off in coldwater just to see mud and >rocks will be significantly reduced. The only part that gets cold on me is around my mask and my hands. I don't think a drysuit will alleviate that. But, I do plan on getting a drysuit. My point is one doesn't need it in the Great Lakes although it is mandatory if one is going deep and doing deco stops. > >> September-October is going to give you the warmest lake > >> temps in the Great Lakes. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Not what they tell me about Superior. By any chance, are these are the same guys that said that a thermocline of 35F water could exist below a 40F layer? :-) Water temperatures are predicated by solar heating. Peak sunlight occurs at the summer solstice - 21 June. Minimum sunlight occurs at the winter solstice - 20/21 December. Here's a good illustration of how lake waters typically respond. Sorry I wasn't able to find one specifically for Lake Superior, but that's your assignment: http://www.lrl.usace.army.mil/wc/wq/BRR.html Water temperature vs. Month is the 2nd graph down on the right side. The vertical dashed line is the "right now", which we can see herein shows that we are "right now" (14 August) have just pased over the annual statistical maximum. If your sources tell you that Lake Superior is warmest at the Sept/Oct (note: Fall Equinox = 21 Sept), because of the repetitive cycle of the seasons, this would then have to mean that it would also have to be coldest 6 months opposite, which would be at the (Sept+6 = March)/(Oct+6 = April) timeframe (note: Spring Equinox = 21 March) And "coldest" means "lake ice will be the thickest". You've ice-fished enough to know that the ice isn't thickest in March...that's when ice-out reporting starts in earnest. > >As a general rule of thumb, as soon as one does a warmwater dive, your > >tolerance for freezing your a.s off in coldwater just to see mud and [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > a drysuit. My point is one doesn't need it in the Great Lakes > although it is mandatory if one is going deep and doing deco stops. Start your planning now for doing a Halloween dive in a Farmer John. According to your buddies, the lake's water temperature should be just past peak ;-) -hh >> >> September-October is going to give you the warmest lake >> >> temps in the Great Lakes. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >By any chance, are these are the same guys that said that a thermocline >of 35F water could exist below a 40F layer? :-) It's true. I've witnessed it as has just about every other diver up here as well. You don't account for underground streams and run off. We have a river up north that actually disappears into the ground and comes out God knows where into Superior. In the Spring, those water temps are below 39 degrees and they come out somewhere below the surface of the lake. Come up next June and I'll introduce you to those cold waters below the surface. >Water temperatures are predicated by solar heating. Peak sunlight >occurs at the summer solstice - 21 June. Minimum sunlight occurs at [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >I wasn't able to find one specifically for Lake Superior, but that's >your assignment: Lake Superior is really an inland sea. >http://www.lrl.usace.army.mil/wc/wq/BRR.html > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >coldest 6 months opposite, which would be at the (Sept+6 = >March)/(Oct+6 = April) timeframe (note: Spring Equinox = 21 March) You are treating Superior as if it was some little lake like you have down there in Texas. What you fail to realize is that warmer water is constantly running off into it after about May and continues until winter sets in. We don't get a lot of rain in November and when we do get precipitation, it is usually snow and it doesn't readily run off at that time of year. If it did, you'd see run off temps at around33-35 degrees. >And "coldest" means "lake ice will be the thickest". No, the water under the ice is always at a constant temperature of around 40 degrees. You'd know that if you ever did and ice dive. >You've ice-fished enough to know that the ice isn't thickest in >March...that's when ice-out reporting starts in earnest. You are making erroneous assumptions. >> >As a general rule of thumb, as soon as one does a warmwater dive, your >> >tolerance for freezing your a.s off in coldwater just to see mud and [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >According to your buddies, the lake's water temperature should be just >past peak ;-) The last day of October is considerable different than the first day. But, some folks dive Superior every month of the year. Check this guy out. http://www.superiordivers.com/Images/Brads%20pics%20046.jpg http://www.superiordivers.com/Madiera%20Set.htm > >By any chance, are these are the same guys that said that a thermocline > >of 35F water could exist below a 40F layer? :-) > > It's true. I've witnessed it as has just about every other diver up > here as well. You don't account for underground streams and run off. Thermoclines are density-based and can be overcome by flow. > Come up next June and I'll introduce you to > those cold waters below the surface. Or you could head east in March/April and do a dip in Dutch. Dutch traditionally has thermoclines so strong that even novices with poor buoyancy control can lay on them. > >Here's a good illustration of how lake waters typically respond. Sorry > >I wasn't able to find one specifically for Lake Superior, but that's > >your assignment: ... > Lake Superior is really an inland sea. Even oceans can't ignore the laws of water density. > You are treating Superior as if it was some little lake like you have > down there in Texas. A) I'm not in Texas. B) The physical properties of water do not regionally vary. C) Lake Superior is tiny in comparison to the Atlantic Ocean. > What you fail to realize is that warmer water is > constantly running off into it after about May and continues until > winter sets in. So you have hot and cold running streams, depending on what temperature you want the lake to be? How convenient! > We don't get a lot of rain in November and when we do > get precipitation, it is usually snow and it doesn't readily run off > at that time of year. If it did, you'd see run off temps at > around33-35 degrees. Look at it this way: Lake Superior contains 2934 cubic miles of water, which is roughly 4.3 E+14 cubic feet. For easier math, let's round down the volume by ~10% to an even 4E14. The combined inflow to *ALL* of the Great Lakes has to equal its outflow. Otherwise, the lakes would either empty, or continuously get deeper. Looking at just Lake Superior, its inflow gets dispersed as outflow into the next Lake and evaporation. In turn, the next lake down the chain has its own watershed and outflows. Eventually, it all goes over Niagra Falls. The combined flow of Niagra Falls is 6 million cubic feet/minute (Wiki). 6E6 ft^3/min * 60 = /hour * 24 = /day *365 = /year = 3.15 E+12 cubic feet per year For easier math, let's round up the outflow by 25%, to an even 4E12 Dividing Lake Superior's volume by Niagrar's outflow: 4E14 / 4E12 = 1E2 = 100 In other words, if one tried to empty Lake Superior with just the flow that goes over Niagra, it would take 100 years. However, what this also suggests is that the annual influx into Lake Superior is only roughly 1% of its volume. Assuming that Lake Superior was at an average temperature of 5C (41F) and its heat influx flow was equal to the flow of Niagra Falls ... but literally at boiling (100C = 212F), with no other system changes, how long would you need this amount of heat input to raise the average temperature of the lake by 1 degrees C? Answer: roughly 1 year. However, since we don't have a Niagra of boiling water, what this really means is that the temperature variation of water influx might cause some highly localized effects, but its effect on the system as a whole - - to use the proper scientific term - - is "diddly squat". > >And "coldest" means "lake ice will be the thickest". > > No, the water under the ice is always at a constant temperature of > around 40 degrees. You'd know that if you ever did and ice dive. So "up north", water freezes at 39F? :-) > >Start your planning now for doing a Halloween dive in a Farmer John. > >According to your buddies, the lake's water temperature should be just > >past peak ;-) > > The last day of October is considerable different than the first day. So you're now claiming that the lake goes from its hottest to 'dang chilly' in only 4 weeks? > But, some folks dive Superior every month of the year. Check this guy > out. > http://www.superiordivers.com/Images/Brads%20pics%20046.jpg Hmmm..."3 out of 4 Lake Superior Divers are stupid enough to put their masks on their foreheads". Oh, and the guy without a drysuit is the only one not smiling. -hh >> >By any chance, are these are the same guys that said that a thermocline >> >of 35F water could exist below a 40F layer? :-) [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >traditionally has thermoclines so strong that even novices with poor >buoyancy control can lay on them. What and where is Dutch? You really should dive Superior. I'm planning an Isle Royale dive next year. >> >Here's a good illustration of how lake waters typically respond. Sorry >> >I wasn't able to find one specifically for Lake Superior, but that's [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Even oceans can't ignore the laws of water density. You can swim at the same depth and the same thermocline might be above you or it might be below you depending on where you are at horizontally. >> You are treating Superior as if it was some little lake like you have >> down there in Texas. > >A) I'm not in Texas. > >B) The physical properties of water do not regionally vary. They certainly do within the same body of water. >C) Lake Superior is tiny in comparison to the Atlantic Ocean. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >So you have hot and cold running streams, depending on what temperature >you want the lake to be? How convenient! No, in the Spring you have very cold water running into a cold lake. In the Summer and Fall, you have warm water, sometimes very warm, running into a cold lake. The North Shore of Lake Superior has numerous rivers and streams that run into it. >> We don't get a lot of rain in November and when we do >> get precipitation, it is usually snow and it doesn't readily run off [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] >cause some highly localized effects, but its effect on the system as a >whole - - to use the proper scientific term - - is "diddly squat". The thermocline varies 5-10 feet in a matter of a few tens of yards in horizontal distance. And, I'm not referring to the system as a whole and never have. Ever dive cold water? >> >And "coldest" means "lake ice will be the thickest". >> >> No, the water under the ice is always at a constant temperature of >> around 40 degrees. You'd know that if you ever did and ice dive. > >So "up north", water freezes at 39F? :-) That's right. You're the guy who thinks lakes freeze all the way through their column. >> >Start your planning now for doing a Halloween dive in a Farmer John. >> >According to your buddies, the lake's water temperature should be just [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >So you're now claiming that the lake goes from its hottest to 'dang >chilly' in only 4 weeks? No, I never said that. I was referring to the weather. But, even at Holloween, the lake is still considerably warm compared to say, June. >> But, some folks dive Superior every month of the year. Check this guy >> out. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >masks on their foreheads". Oh, and the guy without a drysuit is the >only one not smiling. Hehe <snip> > >> No, the water under the ice is always at a constant temperature of > >> around 40 degrees. You'd know that if you ever did and ice dive. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > That's right. You're the guy who thinks lakes freeze all the way > through their column. Who's the one making erroneous assumptions now? ><snip> > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >Who's the one making erroneous assumptions now? Google it. He made that comment before. > ><snip> > > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > > Google it. He made that comment before. Perhaps you could point it out. I looked in google groups and didn't find find it. The closest thing I could find to this topic (depth of ice) was when he said "And "coldest" means "lake ice will be the thickest". " Tell me that you aren't using that statement to justify your prior claim. > > Google it. He made that comment before. > > Perhaps you could point it out. I looked in google groups and didn't find > find it. I couldn't find it either. > The closest thing I could find to this topic (depth of ice) was when he said > "And "coldest" means "lake ice will be the thickest". " Tell me that you > aren't using that statement to justify your prior claim. It might have been something misinterpreted from a few weeks ago, when John claimed something like experiencing a 35F bottom temperature, which unfortunately violates the laws of buoyancy, since water is most dense at 4C (39-40F)...and in short, is why ice floats, and lakes freeze from the top down. More on that can be read here: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_(molecule)#Density_of_water_and_ice> I recall that there was a conversation in which I mentioned that there's some MN lakes that don't support fish life, a fact that isn't contested. I had been told that this phenomenon was because the lakes "froze solid", but apparently, the more common mechanism is that the lake merely freezes enough to become a closed system and when these are too small, the fish suffocate after they deplete the available O2 in the remaining liquid water under the ice plug. In any event, how thick the ice gets on a lake is merely a function of the environment. For example, Antarctica's Lake Vida has frozen 60+ft thick, and clearly would have frozen solid had it not been endorheic, given that its current water brine temperature under the ice is -10C (14F). -hh >> > Google it. He made that comment before. >> >> Perhaps you could point it out. I looked in google groups and didn't find >> find it. > >I couldn't find it either. http://tinyurl.com/lo958 "Sounds like you're hours from where you want to be :-) Personally, I'd not count the thousands of lakes that are so shallow that they can freeze solid in the winter, which results in zero sport fish life in the summer." >> The closest thing I could find to this topic (depth of ice) was when he said >> "And "coldest" means "lake ice will be the thickest". " Tell me that you [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >dense at 4C (39-40F)...and in short, is why ice floats, and lakes >freeze from the top down. People here experience that phenomena all the time. Perhaps you should broaden your knowledge base and come up here and dive. >More on that can be read here: > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >there's some MN lakes that don't support fish life, a fact that isn't >contested. I most certainly contest that. A lake may freeze out on a rare occasion, but that is rare and there are probably only a handful of the 15,000 lakes that do. Ponds are more likely to do that. >I had been told that this phenomenon was because the lakes >"froze solid", but apparently, the more common mechanism is that the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >would have frozen solid had it not been endorheic, given that its >current water brine temperature under the ice is -10C (14F). This is true but it doesn't generally happen to the lakes here. > >I recall that there was a conversation in which I mentioned that > >there's some MN lakes that don't support fish life, a fact that isn't [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > occasion, but that is rare and there are probably only a handful of > the 15,000 lakes that do. Ponds are more likely to do that. Translation: Semantics over what is a pond versus what is a lake. My suggestion to you, John, is to go dive in some of those wonderful mudholes out on ATK's test range. -hh <snip> > I most certainly contest that. A lake may freeze out on a rare > occasion, but that is rare and there are probably only a handful of > the 15,000 lakes that do. Ponds are more likely to do that. Q: Do you know what the difference is between a pond and a lake? A: One is called a pond and the other is called a lake. > It might have been something misinterpreted from a few weeks ago, when > John claimed something like experiencing a 35F bottom temperature, > which unfortunately violates the laws of buoyancy, since water is most > dense at 4C (39-40F)...and in short, is why ice floats, and lakes > freeze from the top down. My memory's not always the best but I'm sure I remember getting readings of low to mid-30's at Gilboa and at some little pond over in Indiana. Gilboa was either in mid-November when we sunk the Christmas tree or at the St.Paddy's Day dive in March (or perhaps both). Mike, Luann and I went over to Indiana to try ice diving once and though we found little ice cover the water was damned cold. Unfortunately I haven't kept logs since shortly after I started diving so have no records. I'm not even certain which computer(s) I would have been using. In any case my understanding is that although water is most dense at about 4 degrees C. it can get colder (and less dense) and only goes from a liquid state to a solid state at zero degrees C. Salt water remains a liquid to a slightly lower temp. Maybe Star the scientist type can sort us out on this one. I'll defer to her expertise. JF > My memory's not always the best but I'm sure I remember getting > readings of low to mid-30's at Gilboa and at some little pond over in > Indiana. Gilboa was either in mid-November when we sunk the Christmas > tree or at the St.Paddy's Day dive in March (or perhaps both). Mike, > Luann and I went over to Indiana to try ice diving once and though we > found little ice cover the water was damned cold. Any lake that freezes will by necessity have water temperatures below 40F; that wasn't the issue here. The gist of the matter had been a claim of a bottom temperature of IIRC 35F (below 40F) when the surface was significantly warmer than 40F. Water simply doesn't do this naturally because of water densities...when you see this on a dive, what you have is a miscalibated temperature gage. Simplistically, because of its higher density, 40F water always wins the "I get to be on the bottom" contest until the entire lake contains no 40F water (warmer or colder). In freshwater bodies, this is commonly referred to as when a lake "turns over". <http://waterontheweb.org/under/lakeecology/05_stratification.html> -hh |
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