Ok I'll tell you why. On the days these instructors are teaching I'm
too busy ripping the sh.t out of Grumman's mom's pussy.

No, it sounds blunt, but blunt and rude aren't the same thing.

Rude would be calling you a ignorant twat.

I'm an instructor, but that's not my profession.  The best advice that most
people on here could give you is to find an instructor.  Beyond that, the
general feeling is *probably* that any other option is not acceptable from a
safety standpoint.  If you've come to a different conclusion, good for you.
There's zero reason to blast those who feel that your life may be worth more
than you've calculated.

Someone from New York is going to teach us manners?  This is going to be
good.  Do we get lessons on how to watch a group for a while before posting
to see who the characters are and how the group interacts?  Ooh, do we learn
how to counter rudeness with more rudeness.  I've heard that works really
well, but I've never actually figured out how it works.

Perhaps you have, but you've then unforunately failed to then be able
to successfully communicate back that you have learned.

Okay, fine - you don't want a (formal?) instructor.  Can you please
explain why this is what you want?

The reason I'm asking is that we've all heard the saying, "The customer
is always right", but the longer version is:  "The customer is always
right, even when he's wrong".   Do realize that no one here is trying
to sell you anything, so the potential for bias is low.

That may be your interpretation of what they said, but its not my
interpretation, nor is it what I believe that Lee would have ever
intended.  Please do be aware that the reason why most good USENET
guides suggest that newcomers lurk for 2 full weeks before posting is
specifically to try to get a feel for the gradiant of "polite-->rude"
gradiant that exists within a particular discussion group:  what you
perceived as rude was polite by these local standards.

To be honest, I don't know what the contemporary norm is; I would have
expected an upswing in formal instruction because of dual-income
families.  Not that it really is important to me:  I'm personally more
interested in ones "watermanship" proficiency, not simply being able to
survive long enough to doggy-paddle to the side of the pool and claim
that one is a "swimmer".

To that end, perhaps this webpage might be sort of what you're looking
for?

<http://library.thinkquest.org/J0112803/watermanship.html>

Sorry you feel that way.  FYI, this medium is fraught with the
potential for misinterpretation, and your taking offense is merely just
the latest example of it.

Personally, I suggest that you chill out and stop assuming that
everyone is being an a.shole on purpose just to piss you off, for as
the old saying goes:  "when everyone around you is an a.shole, its not
them - - its you".

And please don't take this the wrong way, but "you're new here".
There's preexisting social norms that the regulars intuitively know,
but we ourselves can't actually write them down to explain them to
someone new.   In general, newcomers are expected to make mistakes and
overall, they're judged (right or wrong - sh.t happens) based on how
they respond to having some feathers ruffled.

The way that this applies is that the general culture in this specific
group tends to be that there is a low tolerance for those behaviors
that tend to corrolate to divers who get themselves killed.  While
scuba diving is generally a very safe sport, it does kill, and we have
lost members and friends over the years.  For example, just within the
past month, we've had a previously active member in a coma from a
nearly fatal Arterial Gas Embolism (AGE) hit on a dive (she's now in
Rehab).  As such, there will be an ebb and flow to the group's
emotional subconcious tolerance for arrogance and bullshit regardless
of its source.

Do you know why you're nervous about floating in 8ft of water?

For example, is it because you're not a strong swimmer?  (watermanship)
Or was it just one Jaws movie too many <attempt at humor>, or
something else that you can put a finger on?

FWIW, I suspected self-conciousness, and/or some sort of performance
anxiety.

IMO, you're putting words into their mouths, at least the way that I
read the thread:  I perceived the dialog as:

1:  "How do I Learn how to ...?"
2:  "Get an Instructor"
1:  "How *DARE* you make such a suggestion!
2:  (WTF???)

There are some instructors here, but most are not.  And for those
instructors that are here, they're the sane ones.  Most of "That Type"
of Instructor that you're concerned about were Railroaded out of here
long ago because they couldn't take the heat.

Its been a whole five weeks since I've last been in the City.
Which borough and so forth?

BTW, if you're near Brooklyn...

<http://www.huntzinger.com/dive/strokes/2001%20additions/Seahorse_Seekers_2001.jpg>

BTW, does anyone know how George Horn is doing?  I just tried his
"ScubaDivine" website, but it appears to be gone.  I also don't see his
Scuba/Biker shop listed in Yahoo's yellow pages.

Otter, if you're close by, George's address was:  SCUBA DEVINE 3180 88
FULTON ST. BROOKLYN, NY 11208.  If you feel mischevious, tell him your
name is Michael Black and you understand he knows where to find
Seahorses this time of year in Flushing Bay :-)

-hh

No, Lee is not being rude.  Actually, it sounds like he's trying to save
your a.s.

Example given:

Yeah I know how to swim, but I'm still nervous about floating in 8 ft.
of water regardless of whether or not I know how to swim hence my
questions in the first post, which obviously many people here chose to
ignore and got stuck on instructors.

If you are nervous about floating in eight feet of water: Quit diving.  You
will kill yourself, and endanger other people.  Any phobia of water, in any
way, should preclude you from diving.........unless you can get over it,
which can be done through experience.  I have had a number of people tell me
that can't try diving because of a mask on their face, and resulting
chlosterphobia; it's not for them.  There is no shame in it.  It's a
personal descision.

It sounds like you are not comfortable in the water to begin with, let alone
submerging in it.  This is a very bad sign, so I'm not sure why you pursue
something you are not comfortable with.  This fact has nothing to do with
the NG, and what people feel.  It's just a fact of your stated frame of
mind.

George

Thanks for the compliment, George.

I merely gave him the rope.  That Otter chose to not respond to his
alledged 'swimming problem' merely means that he then used that rope to
hang himself as YA lame troll.  Pity.

FWIW, it continues to amaze me that with ~75% of the world's surface
being covered with water that there's so many people that can't swim
worth a lick.  One can perhaps understand it in those parts of the
world where the water contains hippos and crocodiles, but that's not
anywhere in North America.

And in the US, many colleges in the USA used to have required their
students to pass swim tests prior to graduation; it seems to have
originated as part of a Red Cross effort to teach swimming skills to
all Americans, circa World War I.  But for the general public that
didn't go to college in those days, it probably was limited to
organizations like the Boy Scouts.

I do recall that one of my father's favorite stories about going
through basic training in 1943 was how many recruits tried to "fake it"
in the pool at Paris Island.  Unfortunately for them, there was a deep
end to the pool shallow-to-deep transition was a Cayman-like vertical
dropoff :-)

And a personal experience years ago (Bob Babecka, where are you?) makes
me wonder if Otter is able to open his eyes while "diving" underwater.
I'm betting not.

-hh

Hey little boy.....you need to go back to your skateboard or watcing
Southpark, or whatever your mommy lets you do.

If you want to be taken seriously, act like an adult.

That explains a lot.  Dementia.

Nope.  If you were 80 you'd have a thick skin by now.

Sarcastic?  He made a suggestion.  You want to learn something on the
net that just can't be done by book learning.

And what's this thing with a.ses already?

We all were at one time.  But I wasn't NEARLY that stupid.

So, why did you have to take back your "insult" in the other thread?

Your hurting my feelings again. You twat, if I were "inconsequential"
you wouldn't be responding to me the number of times you have. You
know you make yourself look like a real twat when you try to use big
words. But it explains why you are the a.shole that you are.You like
to seem nerdy or something? Or do you think that makes you seem smart?
Forget it, you are a virtual retard.