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Scuba Forum / General / July 2006What Tank to Buy?
I'm thinking about purchasing a tank. My LDS has 80 cf. aluminum tanks for $139 but I've come to the conclusion that I really don't like aluminum due to its buoyancy with little air in the tank. But, I know I'll be using them in Florida or the Caribbean so maybe I should get one anyway and learn to dive with one. Or purchase both. So, assuming I purchase a steel one, should I get an LP or HP tank? Also, I was thinking that I should get something like a 108 cf. just for plain safety reasons or if I'm to do deco stops in the future. I'm sure I'll need more than one tank at that point though so I want one that will work well as one half of a double. The weight of the tank isn't an issue out of water for me. So, what would you folks suggest? > So, what would you folks suggest? Obviously you need a manifolded set of Beuchat / Heiser 190s... > > So, what would you folks suggest? > Obviously you need a manifolded set of Beuchat / Heiser 190s... I dont think that is quite voluminous, capascious or manly enough. "Double Skuds" has been done several times. This behemoth of a manly needs a set of triple 190'S, on one manifold. > > > So, what would you folks suggest? > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > This behemoth of a manly needs a set of triple 190'S, on one manifold. Do you really thing that tank configuration would provide him with enough air? OK, I'm nice MOST of the time. * > Do you really thing that tank configuration would provide him with > enough air? Maybe. Depends upon whether or not he has the strobes and smokers on his epaulettes... > OK, I'm nice MOST of the time. Selectively, part time, I will buy. The rest is fluff. > I dont think that is quite voluminous, capascious or manly enough. Well, he could put one under each arm as stage bottles also... > > I dont think that is quite voluminous, capascious or manly enough. > > Well, he could put one under each arm as stage bottles also... But that'd be strokely behavior. Both sets of triples need to be slung on the left side, of course. The Writ cannot be re-written or reinterpreted, goddamit! Seriously though - go with HP 100s. And if any of you folks in rec.scuba want a pair, I have a set of HP twin 100s, with Highland bands and Genesis manifold, sitting in Boston waiting for a home. Yours for a steal (I couldnt be arsed getting them shipped to me). Email me if interested. V, Is that what Mike Nelson used in"Sea Hunt"? My daughter bought me a few of the old "Sea Hunt" DVD's, I got confused when I watched Mike roll in off the boat with a single tank but as he descended he had a set of triples on his back (funny I never noticed that when I was a kid). Must be a specialty course I haven't taken yet, "Changing your rig as you roll in". Is that an SSI or PADI course? If you don't know I'll call Mike and ask. Al Bottoms Up Divers >> > So, what would you folks suggest? > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > This behemoth of a manly needs a set of triple 190'S, on one manifold. > > > So, what would you folks suggest? > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > This behemoth of a manly needs a set of triple 190'S, on one manifold. I was thinking quads, but it would probably be a good idea to limit his bottom time somewhat so that, even if he is in the same ocean as me, it won't be for long. :-) >> So, what would you folks suggest? > >Obviously you need a manifolded set of Beuchat / Heiser 190s... I think you suggestion is idiotic. > >> So, what would you folks suggest? > > > >Obviously you need a manifolded set of Beuchat / Heiser 190s... > > I think you suggestion is idiotic. Well, John, I'm not really sure why you even asked. Last time you asked a question here and we all gave you pretty good answers, we were all wrong. If this is a serious question, and you plan to take the good suggestions you'll get, then somoene might actually answer you. *, no longer nice >> >> So, what would you folks suggest? >> > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >asked a question here and we all gave you pretty good answers, we were >all wrong. About the conflicting accounts of the Rouses demise or about which wetsuit to buy? >If this is a serious question, and you plan to take the good >suggestions you'll get, then somoene might actually answer you. > >*, no longer nice I never did get any good information on the Rouse incident. I took Popeye's advice on the wetsuit. > >> >> So, what would you folks suggest? > >> > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > I never did get any good information on the Rouse incident. I took > Popeye's advice on the wetsuit. Ahhh well since you are diving wet, you might want to consider buoyancy issues before choosing steel tanks. * >> >> >> So, what would you folks suggest? >> >> > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >Ahhh well since you are diving wet, you might want to consider buoyancy >issues before choosing steel tanks. Which brings up another issue, I'll be getting a drysuit soon enough. I almost purchased one today. I plan on diving a lot of wrecks in Lake Superior. Also, when I go to the Caribbean, I won't have much in the way of a wetsuit so should require very little lead. But, most of my diving will be cold and probably will be in a drysuit. > >> >> >> So, what would you folks suggest? > >> >> > [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > the way of a wetsuit so should require very little lead. But, most of > my diving will be cold and probably will be in a drysuit. Well then - for starters, grab yourself a coupla 95's. You can double them later when you need to. You won't be wanting to haul your Al's to the caribbean, so I wouldn't bother with them. The 95s will give you the gas you need and will be great to start with in your drysuit. Did you get the BP/wing then? You'll need that to dive doubles. * >> >> >> >> So, what would you folks suggest? >> >> >> > [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] >the caribbean, so I wouldn't bother with them. The 95s will give you >the gas you need and will be great to start with in your drysuit. Thanks. Yes, I figured I'd rent down South. Plus, my buddy in Titusville already has two aluminum tanks if I need them down there. So, I'll purchase a 95. One for now. Should I get a high pressure or a low pressure? >Did you get the BP/wing then? You'll need that to dive doubles. Well, I've got a wing, but no BP and I don't know if my BC will accept one. Someone else here has told me I made a big mistake purchasing the Zeagle Tech BC but I got a good deal on it (used). I figured I'd get used to the wing design that way. > So, I'll purchase a 95. One for now. Should I get a high pressure or a > low pressure? Low pressure (2640). Galvanized, not painted.  SignatureArt Greenberg artg at eclipse dot net > Thanks. Yes, I figured I'd rent down South. Plus, my buddy in > Titusville already has two aluminum tanks if I need them down there. > So, I'll purchase a 95. One for now. Should I get a high pressure or > a low pressure? Low pressure. They can always be filled to higher psi. I dive faber lp98's doubled with usually 3500psi pumped in. It's rated at 98cf with 2400psi. >>Did you get the BP/wing then? You'll need that to dive doubles. > Well, I've got a wing, but no BP and I don't know if my BC will accept > one. Someone else here has told me I made a big mistake purchasing > the Zeagle Tech BC but I got a good deal on it (used). I figured I'd > get used to the wing design that way. I don't know much about the Zeagles. I heard you can use doubles if you have the righ wing (lift). But, I would guess for single tank usage it will be fine. You will find those that don't like it, and those that do. You have made the choice. Dive it, get used to it and have fun. B/W's can be gotten at a later date when you are ready to increase your bottom time. > So, I'll purchase a 95. One for now. Should I get a high pressure or > a low pressure? Low Pressure, 104s or 120s, Galvanized. From what I know, you'd be wasting money on 95s. They are not suitable for certain uses I suspect you may be interested in. Curtis > Low Pressure, 104s or 120s, Galvanized. From what I know, you'd be > wasting money on 95s. They are not suitable for certain uses I suspect > you may be interested in. Add a matched pair, not just one. Curtis >> So, I'll purchase a 95. One for now. Should I get a high pressure or >> a low pressure? > > Low Pressure, 104s or 120s, Galvanized. From what I know, you'd be >wasting money on 95s. They are not suitable for certain uses I suspect you >may be interested in. There is a guy on the Craigslist that has a 95 for sale for $150 that is out of hydro. My LDS does hydros on steel tanks for $55. Should I pass up the deal? "I have the following tank and valves for sale: 1 95cc ft steel tank $150 4 Din valves $35 each 1 Dive Rite H-Valve $60" >>> So, I'll purchase a 95. One for now. Should I get a high pressure or >>> a low pressure? [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > 4 Din valves $35 each > 1 Dive Rite H-Valve $60" IMO, it's -significantly- important to know what brand the tank is. I dunno about the Hydro, I thought they were cheaper, but I'm usually the wholesaler. You can get your own hydro done at most any full service fire extinguisher equipment place, ask your local fire guys. You'll still have to have a VIP to get filled after that, although it's arguable. Some phone calling may show it to be easier just to let the LDS do it all. But I'd check. SignaturePopeye "Best thing for him, really, his therapy was going nowhere." -Dr. Hannibal Lector. www.finalprotectivefire.com > There is a guy on the Craigslist that has a 95 for sale for $150 that > is out of hydro. My LDS does hydros on steel tanks for $55. Should I > pass up the deal? With the hydro and shipping, how close are you to the price of a new one? As Popeye said, the brand is very important, and I would not buy a used steel tank unless I could look inside it first. I paid $100/ea for the last used Faber 95's we bought, and they were in hydro and local, so I was able to inspect them first. There was no shipping cost. >> There is a guy on the Craigslist that has a 95 for sale for $150 that >> is out of hydro. My LDS does hydros on steel tanks for $55. Should I [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >one? As Popeye said, the brand is very important, and I would not buy a >used steel tank unless I could look inside it first. No shipping. He's local. >I paid $100/ea for the last used Faber 95's we bought, and they were in >hydro and local, so I was able to inspect them first. There was no >shipping cost. I wouldn't have shipping either but I'm not going to buy it. Thanks. > There is a guy on the Craigslist that has a 95 for sale for $150 that > is out of hydro. My LDS does hydros on steel tanks for $55. Should I > pass up the deal? I'd lean towards passing. Have to get one hell of a deal to take on 95s, I'm already in possession of better options. Curtis >> >> >> >> So, what would you folks suggest? >> >> >> > [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > > Did you get the BP/wing then? You'll need that to dive doubles. This is spot-on. Although my first two tanks were AL80's, and I've always been glad to have them, LP95's will do better for extra gas, and as a counter for drysuit buoyancy. > * > "Star" <lclee1@gmail.com> wrote in message > > Well then - for starters, grab yourself a coupla 95's. You can double > > them later when you need to. You won't be wanting to haul your Al's to [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > This is spot-on. But of course :-) > Although my first two tanks were AL80's, and I've always been glad to have > them, We have a few around here too and they do come in handy on occasion. That's all I will admit to owning. Asking a woman how many cylinders she owns is like asking her age, weight, or how many pairs of shoes she owns. * > We have a few around here too and they do come in handy on occasion. > That's all I will admit to owning. Asking a woman how many cylinders > she owns is like asking her age, weight, or how many pairs of shoes she > owns. So, how many sets of AL80 dubs do you own? > > We have a few around here too and they do come in handy on occasion. > > That's all I will admit to owning. Asking a woman how many cylinders > > she owns is like asking her age, weight, or how many pairs of shoes she > > owns. > > So, how many sets of AL80 dubs do you own? Right now? Potential sets, or currently manifolded sets? ;-) * > > > We have a few around here too and they do come in handy on occasion. > > > That's all I will admit to owning. Asking a woman how many cylinders [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > ;-) Oh, dont be coy. We know you have 'em. I like AL80's dubbed because of the flat bottoms. You can stand them on the tailgate and easily get in and out of them. Plus, jacked to 4k... > > > > We have a few around here too and they do come in handy on occasion. > > > > That's all I will admit to owning. Asking a woman how many cylinders [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Plus, jacked to 4k... If you mean my 63's - with my RMV they are good for all the time I want to spend down to about 160ft or so. ;-) > I like AL80's dubbed because of the flat bottoms. You can stand them on the > tailgate and easily get in and out of them. Maybe with your truck, but not with mine... Well, perhaps Curtis is tall enough that that is an option... <grin> > Maybe with your truck, but not with mine... Well, perhaps Curtis is > tall enough that that is an option... <grin> Aluminum 80s, doubled? On land, overhead don from the ground in front of me, before I mount the cannister on the belt, but with the "V" weight in place if needed. Hell, it's only about 100 lbs. Curtis > Aluminum 80s, doubled? On land, overhead don from the ground in front > of me, before I mount the cannister on the belt, but with the "V" weight in > place if needed. Hell, it's only about 100 lbs. Yeah, I know, but I was just commenting on the differences in the heights of our respective tailgates... <grin> > Yeah, I know, but I was just commenting on the differences in the > heights of our respective tailgates... <grin> No comparison, my Jimmy doesn't have a tailgate, has the door that makes a nice awning. I do my steel dubs from the bumper, even lower. Curtis > No comparison, my Jimmy doesn't have a tailgate, has the door that makes > a nice awning. I can raise my truck bed cover, but that doesn't quite give as much shelter as an SUV's liftgate type door... > I do my steel dubs from the bumper, even lower. My tailgate is about 36" off the ground... High enough that I have to hop up a bit to sit on the tailgate, but not so high that I couldn't slip into the backplate harness while standing on the ground... High enough that I wouldn't want to be sitting on the tailgate with my doubles on when I needed to hop down -- probably end up falling flat on my face... Maybe I out to design a receiver hitch based attachment that would hold the tanks securely while a person puts their rig together... Might be somewhat useful when a person has a set of round bottom steel tanks... Something that would hold the tanks vertically so that they didn't have a chance of falling backwards and dinging the tailgate... Might be rather useful if I ever move up to a set of double Heiser 190s... <grin> > My tailgate is about 36" off the ground... High enough that I have to > hop up a bit to sit on the tailgate, but not so high that I couldn't > slip into the backplate harness while standing on the ground... High > enough that I wouldn't want to be sitting on the tailgate with my > doubles on when I needed to hop down -- probably end up falling flat > on my face... Figure that if I decided to return to serious breaking for next year, I'll just start overhead donning the steels, be great training. Curtis > > "Star" <lclee1@gmail.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > she owns is like asking her age, weight, or how many pairs of shoes she > owns. Since tanks seem to come in pairs for you, do the number of tank-pairs equal the number of shoes? Do you try to get the tanks to coordinate with the footwear? Enquiring minds, and all.... ;-) Dennis > Ahhh well since you are diving wet, you might want to consider buoyancy > issues before choosing steel tanks. Especially if he had a a set of steel-190s... <evil-grin> > I think you suggestion is idiotic. And I think that you apparently lack a sense of humor... Let's see... You said, "The weight of the tank isn't an issue out of water for me"... You didn't expect me to pass up an opening like that, did you? Did you even check the specs on the tanks that I mentioned? Hell, they're only 6" taller than a normal AL80... Same diameter as most other steel tanks (i.e. approximately 8")... http://www.huronscuba.com/equipment/scubaCylinderSpecification.html Yeah, they tend to be a bit negatively buoyant even when empty, but think how much weight you'll be able to take off your weight belt... >> I think you suggestion is idiotic. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >they're only 6" taller than a normal AL80... Same diameter as most >other steel tanks (i.e. approximately 8")... You didn't expect me to pretend that I wasn't chagrined over your suggestion, did you:-) >http://www.huronscuba.com/equipment/scubaCylinderSpecification.html > >Yeah, they tend to be a bit negatively buoyant even when empty, but >think how much weight you'll be able to take off your weight belt... 125 pounds when full. That's like one Ron Hoff back when he was wining world championships. > The weight of the tank > isn't an issue out of water for me. Lucky you. >> The weight of the tank >> isn't an issue out of water for me. > >Lucky you. I just got back from the data center, they are replacing the bright red halon bottles. 10.000 PSI I think. THey are approx 5 frrt high and 24 inched in diameter. Seems like they would be an air hogs dream come true. > I just got back from the data center, they are replacing the bright > red halon bottles. 10.000 PSI I think. THey are approx 5 frrt high and > 24 inched in diameter. Seems like they would be an air hogs dream come > true. Halox? > I just got back from the data center, they are replacing the bright > red halon bottles. 10.000 PSI I think. THey are approx 5 frrt high and > 24 inched in diameter. Seems like they would be an air hogs dream come > true. Most of the commercial systems that I've heard about are around 600 psi... >> The weight of the tank >> isn't an issue out of water for me. > >Lucky you. Luck? That's 5 years of hard work. >>> The weight of the tank >>> isn't an issue out of water for me. >> >>Lucky you. >> > Luck? That's 5 years of hard work. I was born that way (Irish-German), but the tequila and fast food -did- help immensely. > So, what would you folks suggest? First, no one buys one tank. Almost every boat trip you go on will give you the opportunity to do 2 dives. Luxfer AL80's are great tanks unless you really need more gas. A few pounds on your belt will take care of the buoyancy in a safe way, and you can also use a weighted adaptor if you use a BP/W, especislly with a drysuit. For more gas, steel tanks are the answer. I don't like the Genesis type HP tanks, but others here do. I've done alot of VIPs, and those tanks almost always have some corrosion in them. If you don't get them filled all the way, you have a heavy and expensive 80. The LP steels are my choice, but there is a new wrinkle to it. The Faber LP 95's and 108's are now available with a "Special Permit" number, which allows them to be filled to 3442 PSI for 117 Cf and 130 CF. If you can't get them filled that high, they are still 95 or 108 cf at 2640 psi. Of course, in some parts of the country (FL), you can get the regular LP's filled to whatever you want. Worthington makes a similar tank with a galvanized finish. I haven't used them, so I don't know how they dive, but I'd take a good look at them if I were buying more tanks (which I don't need, as we have 2 sets of 108's doubled up, 6 sets of 95's, 4 single 95's, 3 sets of AL80 doubles, and a bunch of AL80 singles, plus I don't know how many AL40's. Oh yeah, I also have a set of PST 95's.) Pressed Steel 95's and 104's are also available with a 3442 psi permit, if they ever get back to making tanks again. The 104's are really sweet in the water, but I find them to be a bit much for boat diving, as they are considerablty heavier than the Fabers or Worthingtons. If most of my diving was going to be cold water drysuit diving, I'd look at the Faber or Worthington 130's (108's with the SP). > (which I don't need, as we have 2 sets of 108's doubled up, 6 sets of > 95's, 4 single 95's, 3 sets of AL80 doubles, and a bunch of AL80 > singles, plus I don't know how many AL40's. Oh yeah, I also have a set > of PST 95's.) What? No steel-72s? > What? No steel-72s? I forgot - I have 1 steel 72, rigged as an O2 bottle for cave diving. I haven't been doing it as long as you, Lee and Mike G. > I forgot - I have 1 steel 72, rigged as an O2 bottle for cave diving. I > haven't been doing it as long as you, Lee and Mike G. Had one of those also, til it failed the last visual. Seems they don't last forever when you use them for 100%. Curtis > Seems they don't last forever when you use them for 100%. Tumble it, hydro it and use it for another 30 years. >> Seems they don't last forever when you use them for 100%. > > Tumble it, hydro it and use it for another 30 years. That got me one more year. When the guy I trust to VIP my tanks says ???, I say toss it. :-) Besides, cave country has 3000 psi oxygen. Curtis > >> Seems they don't last forever when you use them for 100%. > > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Besides, cave country has 3000 psi oxygen. Hey, your tanks. > Luxfer AL80's are great tanks unless you really need more gas. A few > pounds on your belt will take care of the buoyancy in a safe way, and > you can also use a weighted adaptor if you use a BP/W, especislly with a > drysuit. Make great doubles, handle far better in water than a single large steel, "V" weights solve any excess bouyancy issues, and still small enough for boat use. Curtis > I'm thinking about purchasing a tank. My LDS has 80 cf. aluminum > tanks for $139 but I've come to the conclusion that I really don't [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > So, what would you folks suggest? You going to fly to the Caribbean witht that tank? >> I'm thinking about purchasing a tank. My LDS has 80 cf. aluminum >> tanks for $139 but I've come to the conclusion that I really don't [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >> So, what would you folks suggest? >You going to fly to the Caribbean witht that tank? Uhmm, no. Nor will I be bringing any weights. Perhaps I should have been more clear. I know I'll be renting aluminum tanks in Florida and the Caribbean. >>>I'm thinking about purchasing a tank. My LDS has 80 cf. aluminum >>>tanks for $139 but I've come to the conclusion that I really don't [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > been more clear. I know I'll be renting aluminum tanks in Florida and > the Caribbean. good answer! :-) > So, what would you folks suggest? No tank at all. You don't dive enough to warrant it. Its the 2nd biggest mistake every newbie makes, so just buy S080s and be done with it. Its the cheapest way to make the mistake that you've already decided to make. bullshark >> So, what would you folks suggest? > > No tank at all. IMO the biggest mistake a new diver makes is not buying a tank. If you stick with the sport, you'll realize the size or material of the first tank purchase doesn't matter. > No tank at all. You don't dive enough to warrant it. Its the 2nd > biggest mistake every newbie makes, so just buy S080s and be done with > it. Its the cheapest way to make the mistake that you've already > decided to make. For the near future, that's probably the best answer yet. Curtis > No tank at all. You don't dive enough to warrant it. It's easy enough to calculate whether one should purchase a tank or continue to rent from an economic standpoint... If the numbers don't work out the way that you want them, then you factor in the convenience factor to get the answer that you wanted to get in the first place... Things he'll need to know: 1. Cost of the tank 2. Cost to fill the tank 3. Cost to get an annual visual inspection 4. Cost to get a hydro (every 5 years) 5. Expected number of dives per year 6. Cost to rent a tank 7. Additional fuel / vehicle costs for returning rental tank after local dive trip I wrote something like this for justifying having a dedicated tank for nitrox awhile back... Didn't factor in the additional fuel costs for returning the rental tank though... If you were to add it to the cost of the rental tank, it would work out though... Here's the URL... You'll need to change the value for O2 cleaning of the tank to zero... The 'frequency' value associated with 'tank ownership' is the service life of the tank... In some cases, this might be a true life expectancy, in others, it might just be how long you plan to keep the tank until deciding to buy something different (not necessarily *better*, just *different*)... I have tanks that are over 35 years old and I still dive with them, so the default value of 20 is probably overly conservative... http://home.houston.rr.com/grumman581/nitrox-calc.htm >> No tank at all. You don't dive enough to warrant it. > [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > >http://home.houston.rr.com/grumman581/nitrox-calc.htm If I were going to buy a tank, I think I'd go with the Abrams >>http://home.houston.rr.com/grumman581/nitrox-calc.htm >> >If I were going to buy a tank, I think I'd go with the Abrams personally, I'd lean towards the challenger II or the Merkava > >>http://home.houston.rr.com/grumman581/nitrox-calc.htm > >> > >If I were going to buy a tank, I think I'd go with the Abrams > > personally, I'd lean towards the challenger II or the Merkava nah just get one of these: http://tinyurl.com/oh8tr http://tinyurl.com/qw6ct ;-) * >> >>http://home.houston.rr.com/grumman581/nitrox-calc.htm >> >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >* thats some kind of engineers support vehicle. no big cannon on top to take on the IRS when they come auditing :P rather than one of them, I'd take a tatra 813, or maybe a BMP1 since they're amphibious, weld on an anchor reel and go doving off one :P Theres an outfit in the Uk that has some for sale. and they export too. http://www.tanksforsale.co.uk/BMP1/BMP1.htm or try an 152mm SPG :) and it's not a submersible pressure gauge! http://www.tanksforsale.co.uk/Dana/dana.htm or if you get annoyed with Grummy buzzing the house, a AA gun... http://www.tanksforsale.co.uk/M53/M53.htm http://www.tanksforsale.co.uk/Flak38/Flak38.htm or for the traditionalist, A T72 or T55 http://www.tanksforsale.co.uk/T72/T72.htm http://www.tanksforsale.co.uk/T55/T55.htm > >> >>http://home.houston.rr.com/grumman581/nitrox-calc.htm > >> >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > thats some kind of engineers support vehicle. no big cannon on top to > take on the IRS when they come auditing :P They locate and clear IED's. And as for the IRS, did you not see the large clawed scoop on the end of the long arm? * >> >> >>http://home.houston.rr.com/grumman581/nitrox-calc.htm >> >> >> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > >* the thing that looks like it came off a certain home domolition machine in I, Robot that nearly did for will smiths character? I hope the revenooers are a little slower on their feet :D > > >>http://home.houston.rr.com/grumman581/nitrox-calc.htm > > >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > * I'm sure he's a nice guy and all, but to steal a line from a movie... "there's a line and on this side of it, we ain't gay." - Jay from Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back. > > > >>http://home.houston.rr.com/grumman581/nitrox-calc.htm > > > >> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > "there's a line and on this side of it, we ain't gay." - Jay from Jay and > Silent Bob Strike Back. *raises eyebrow* Are you messin with my kid? *, in mom mode > > > > >>http://home.houston.rr.com/grumman581/nitrox-calc.htm > > > > >> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Are you messin with my kid? Nope, I just don't want him... "nah just get one of these:" ;-) > > > > > >>http://home.houston.rr.com/grumman581/nitrox-calc.htm > > > > > >> [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > Nope, I just don't want him... "nah just get one of these:" ;-) I meant the tank, you pervert :-P * <snip> > I meant the tank, you pervert :-P Thanks for the complement. :-) > <snip> > > > I meant the tank, you pervert :-P > > Thanks for the complement. :-) .... men.... sigh..... * > If I were going to buy a tank, I think I'd go with the Abrams Could you afford / justify the fuel consumption on it? <grin> 0.6 mpg... 498 gallons to refill... Great accelleration though -- 0 to 20 mph in 7 seconds... 1500 hp for 63 tons... <grin> > Could you afford / justify the fuel consumption on it? <grin> > > 0.6 mpg... 498 gallons to refill... Great accelleration though -- 0 to > 20 mph in 7 seconds... 1500 hp for 63 tons... <grin> Sounds a bit like my boat. > > No tank at all. You don't dive enough to warrant it. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > convenience factor to get the answer that you wanted to get in the > first place... True enough. However, the real challenge is in determining realistic values of dive frequency before the Novice has done any real amount of diving. To this end, its IMO a generally better idea to get the first 20 dives under your belt with rentals to then have some actual dive frequency data (and tank preference insights) with which to draw from. Otherwise, its GIGO. > Things he'll need to know: > 1. Cost of the tank [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > returning the rental tank though... If you were to add it to the cost > of the rental tank, it would work out though... Here's the URL... It works, although it could use some text for definitions of what you intended ;-) > The 'frequency' value associated with 'tank ownership' is the service > life of the tank... In some cases, this might be a true life > expectancy, in others, it might just be how long you plan to keep the > tank until deciding to buy something different (not necessarily > *better*, just *different*)... Understood. Personally, I'd make the default value here to be 7 years (instead of 20), because the limiting factor usually hasn't been the hardware, but the diver losing interest in diving: 5-7 years is the plain vanilla generic number of years that the "Average Diver" dives before he gives up on the Sport and takes up golf or whatever. Granted, this a YMMV, and we shouldn't mention it too loudly unless we want to adversely affect the quantity of good quality, barely used dive gear to be found at garage sales & eBay being sold off cheap <g>, but there's no good reason to assume that a Novice is ever going to be anything other than "Average" over his diving lifespan when trying to make multi-year economic projections. -hh > > No tank at all. You don't dive enough to warrant it. > > It's easy enough to calculate whether one should purchase a tank or > Things he'll need to know: > 1. Cost of the tank > 2. Cost to fill the tank > 3. Cost to get an annual visual inspection > 4. Cost to get a hydro (every 5 years) Cost of Storage. It takes space. It may be no more than an opportunity cost, or it may be quite real. Judge from the national trend to PODs and the booming storage market. The cost of the tank needs to be adjusted for the opportunity cost of that capital. PST's are running 325 a pop, and over the service life, the interest on interest is considerable...getting larger as life expectancy increases. Just compounded annually at 6% for 20yrs, thats $1042.00 Even worse, a lot of the kiddies out there don't know that a credit card balance can actually be payed down to zero, so they tack 21% APRs onto the cost of the tanks. > 5. Expected number of dives per year > 6. Cost to rent a tank Cost to rent a tank needs to be reduced by the cost to fill, to put in perspective. Since you have it on the other side, it cancels. > 7. Additional fuel / vehicle costs for returning rental tank after > local dive trip You've got this one backwards (sometimes, anyway). If you rent, you leave the tank with the boat. Zero Fuel cost. This is also much less work than house->car, car->boat, boat->car, car->shop, shop->car, car->house, for each of the 40 lb tanks. When the boat does not rent the tank, the transport cost cancels, because if you owned, you would have to transport for the fill anyway. So this is a (sometimes) cost reduction for the rental case. > http://home.houston.rr.com/grumman581/nitrox-calc.htm Dives/ year needs to be carefully considered. We dive ~200/yr, but only half of those are at home where they would be eligible. For your Nitrox Calculator, you need a Bullshit-Aggravation adjuster for all the freaks that won't fill your tank because: They don't like your O2-clean sticker You don't have a pretty green and yellow sticker/band Your tank is O2 clean and they only have premix and won't fill (Yes a shop here actually does this) The shop fills your O2 clean tank with premix and then removes the O2 clean (Yes, the same shop) Then you have to add the Shop-is too-slow-to-fill-while-you-wait adjustment. The PP blenders around here want you to drop off the tanks and pick them up later. Oh yeah, don't forget the I-came-back-to-pick-up-the-tanks-and-they-weren't-done-tax, and the I-came-back-to-pick-up-the-tanks-and-the-mixes-were-wrong-tax. bullshark > Cost of Storage. I store mine in various places around the house... Under the bed in the guest bedroom, in my closet, etc... Being a guy, I have plenty of spare closet space... Grace's closet on the other hand is rather full... Maybe it's because I've never felt that I had a need for 20 pairs of black shoes... > It takes space. It may be no more than an opportunity cost, or it may > be quite real. > Judge from the national trend to PODs and the booming storage market. I noticed qutie a few PODs in front of houses when I recently visited New Orleans on my way back from Florida... Their white paint matches the white of the FEMA trailers very well... <grin> > The cost of the tank needs to be adjusted for the opportunity cost of > that capital. > PST's are running 325 a pop, and over the service life, the interest on > interest is considerable...getting larger as life expectancy increases. > > Just compounded annually at 6% for 20yrs, thats $1042.00 Yeah, but if you didn't spend it on tanks, you would just spend it on beer anyway... <grin> > Even worse, a lot of the kiddies out there don't know that a credit > card balance can actually be payed down to zero, so they tack > 21% APRs onto the cost of the tanks. If a person is not smart enough to not pay interest on a credit card purchase, I'm not going to add calculations into my page to handle it for them... > Cost to rent a tank needs to be reduced by the cost to fill, to put in > perspective. > Since you have it on the other side, it cancels. Not the way the calculations are being done... I only handled the case of one dive being done on a particular tank in a day and as such, the tank rental cost includes the air fill... For multiple dives on a particular tank in a day, the cost of air fills for the rental tank would equal the air fills for the puchased tank, so it really isn't necessary to include them in the calculations as they would both just cancel each other out... > You've got this one backwards (sometimes, anyway). > > If you rent, you leave the tank with the boat. Zero Fuel cost. > This is also much less work than > house->car, car->boat, boat->car, car->shop, shop->car, car->house, > for each of the 40 lb tanks. Depends upon perculiarities of your local diving... Around here, it's drive over to the LDS to pick up the tanks the day before... Go do a lake dive or whatever and try to make it back to the LDS to return the tank that day to keep from getting charged for another day's rental... Still, my calculator can handle that just by the values that you put into the rental cost and fill cost fields since you can just adjust them by whatever value you deem appropriate for the procedures that you need to go through for renting or filling tanks... > When the boat does not rent the tank, the transport cost cancels, > because if you owned, you would have to transport for the fill > anyway. I don't find it that way for me since I am always able to fill my tanks while waiting... If I had to drop my tanks off and come back the next day, the transport costs would cancel though... > Dives/ year needs to be carefully considered. We dive ~200/yr, > but only half of those are at home where they would be eligible. Yeah, I probably should have qualified that a bit better... > For your Nitrox Calculator, you need a Bullshit-Aggravation adjuster > for all the [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > I-came-back-to-pick-up-the-tanks-and-they-weren't-done-tax, > and the I-came-back-to-pick-up-the-tanks-and-the-mixes-were-wrong-tax. Those sorts of adjustments are beyond the scope of this endeavor... <grin> Basically, the calculator lets you get a rough idea of the number of dives that you will need to make in a year for puchase to be cheaper than rental... For many of us, we put a high enough value on 'convenience factor' that even if the numbers don't work out, we still buy tanks... > > Cost of Storage. > Basically, the calculator lets you get a rough idea of the number of > dives that you will need to make in a year for puchase to be cheaper > than rental... For many of us, we put a high enough value on > 'convenience factor' that even if the numbers don't work out, we still > buy tanks... I wasn't picking on your calculator. It gives a pretty good idea of costs. I was just outlining the stuff people don't think about when they decide to buy tanks... The thread is here, it's about diving, so I was just trying to flesh things out a little. I maintain that most Noobs should rent everything except mask/fins/suit. The money saved will pay for a dive trip and they might actually have clue what's important in rare event that diving is more than a dalliance. bullshark > I maintain that most Noobs should rent everything except mask/fins/suit. > The money saved will pay for a dive trip and they might > actually have clue what's important in rare event that diving is more than > a dalliance. Good advice. > I maintain that most Noobs should rent everything except > mask/fins/suit. The money saved will pay for a dive trip > and they might actually have clue what's important > in rare event that diving is more than a dalliance. But as you pointed out, that might dry up the supply of new but slightly used gear that is for sale on eBay and such... <grin> We need to educate them so that they make purchases that we would be willing to buy on the used market... <evil-grin> The calculator allow you to play with the numbers, but I suspect that for most of us, it comes down to convenience factor... Especially those of us with multiple tanks... For the other gear, I am more inclined to suggest that a diver buys it so that he has the same gear everytime he dives and the familiarity should increase his comfort level... > We need to educate them so that they make purchases that we would be > willing to buy on the used market... <evil-grin> <Slap> What was I thinking? Of course he needs tanks. The PST X7-100 is the only tank to own if you have to own. They're rugged. They're galvanized. They last forever. They weigh no more than an S080 when empty. They are standard 7.25" diameter. They're smaller (slightly shorter) than an S080 They use EN250 valves now so Yoke or DIN is fine. They're neutral or negative when empty They hold 105 ft3 at 3500. They hold 90 ft3 at 3000. They hold 80 ft3 at 2640. No matter where you fill them you have plenty of gas. Anybody can get you 80 cubes. It makes buying anything else look pretty silly. bullshark > A bunch of relevant things to consider when comparing the cost of owning > your own tanks. Is this simply an interesting exercise or did you sell your tanks? I figured you bought your own tanks mostly because you and your wife prefer tanks that aren't available to rent everyplace you dive, even when diving locally or because having your own increases the opportunities to decide to go diving on the spur of the moment. As far as I know , it's a convenience benefit, not a cost benefit. I'd be quite surprised if there is another way to justify owning tanks. There's not much doubt in my mind that it costs me a lot more to own my own, particularly to own 12 of my own, than it would cost to rent two, or four if Jayna accompanies me, from a shop or operator. If I'm not mistaken, you suggested the same earlier. Lee > I figured you bought your own tanks mostly because you and your wife prefer > tanks that aren't available to rent everyplace you dive, even when diving [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Jayna accompanies me, from a shop or operator. If I'm not mistaken, you > suggested the same earlier. It would be really hard to justify owning tanks on just cost. I own tanks strictly for convenience, and to have double sets and deco bottles that I know are right. > No tank at all. You don't dive enough to warrant it. Its the 2nd > biggest mistake every newbie makes, so just buy S080s and be done with > it. Its the cheapest way to make the mistake that you've already > decided to make. Nah, he needs tanks, really big tanks. After all, people with lots of muscle mass can never get their consumption down to the point where a standard 80 will work for them. Really big rental tanks are not easy to find everywhere. Actually, if I were to make a recommendation, it would be close to yours except, of course, I prefer the neutral 80s to the somewhat more buoyant standard ones. Catalinas should be more common on the west coast than they are here. Lee >>No tank at all. You don't dive enough to warrant it. Its the 2nd >>biggest mistake every newbie makes, so just buy S080s and be done with [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Lee another good answer! the only reason I bought my tank is to use in my pool - many time when I rent they want it back the next day - I can't burn 3,000 lb in 30 dives in my pool - yes the visuals are a pia along with the hydros - I bought the tank for $99 in 1991 so I figured I got my money's worth If I lived in Florida (again) I would probably have a nice set of tanks and use them every weekend > the only reason I bought my tank is to use in my pool - many time when I > rent they want it back the next day - I can't burn 3,000 lb in 30 dives in [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > If I lived in Florida (again) I would probably have a nice set of tanks > and use them every weekend Living in Florida is closely associated with why I have tanks. It's entirely a matter of convenience and, more recently, preference. There is no way for me to justify the cost of owning, filling and maintaining the six compact 80s, two HP 100s, one standard 80 (my O2 supply), two standard 30 (deco and just in case tank for boat) and one standard 40 (deco) tanks I own. I have been shore diving and diving from my own boats since the 60's. Until the mid to late 60's I did not have my own transportation. I had to borrow the family car for anything, including getting tank fills, that had to be driven to. Running to a shop just before and just after a dive simply wasn't a viable option. Later, when I did have my own transportation, running to a shop just before and sometimes just after a dive still wasn't an option. We often left and/or returned before or after the shops were open. These days, I do a lot more, but still not all, of my diving from dive charters. Rental tanks are available, but rarely, if ever, the neutrally buoyant 80 cubic foot tanks I prefer and not always my other choice, HP 100s. Combined with the fact that I take my tanks with me on weekend and longer boat trips, still occasionally shore dive, usually breathe something other than plain air and often loan tanks to friends traveling to the area, having tanks of my own just makes sense. Those that almost always dive with a shop, commercial operator or at a vacation resort, probably have less need to own their own tanks. Lee >> No tank at all. You don't dive enough to warrant it. Its the 2nd >> biggest mistake every newbie makes, so just buy S080s and be done with [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >standard 80 will work for them. Really big rental tanks are not easy to >find everywhere. I never said that and you're being an idiot. >Actually, if I were to make a recommendation, it would be close to yours >except, of course, I prefer the neutral 80s to the somewhat more buoyant >standard ones. Catalinas should be more common on the west coast than they >are here. I'm going with steel. |
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