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Scuba Forum / General / July 2006

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Liesurepro.com question

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Shawn B. - 02 Jul 2006 06:45 GMT
Greetings,

I am about to purchase the following items:

[Regulator] http://www.leisurepro.com/Prod/SCPM25S60.html

[Dive Computer - Cobra]
http://www.leisurepro.com/Prod/CategoryID_1985/Sort_Stock/DescSort_0/Filter_1%3d
1992/SQTCBCWCQ.html?Hit=1


from a local diveshop for the full MSRP less 10% (same full price listed in
both links).  If I instead purchase from leisure pro (since I'm purchasing
two of each (me and my wife)) I will be saving about roughly $1k.  Are the
items sold from leisurepro new (not refurbished or used) and do these
particular items require any assembly that a new diver wouldn't know how to
figure out?

I'm also looking at a BC (Seaquest Balance) with integrated octo breather
and so on.  Leisure pro doesn't carry it, or at least I can't find it, but
I'm paying $649 at the dive shop, the Balance that LP does carry is
discounted 25%.  Do BC's require assembly as well?

Thanks,
Shawn
Lee Bell - 02 Jul 2006 11:40 GMT
> http://www.leisurepro.com/Prod/SCPM25S60.html

> http://www.leisurepro.com/Prod/CategoryID_1985/Sort_Stock/DescSort_0/Filter_1%3d
1992/SQTCBCWCQ.html?Hit=1

Scuba Pro makes quality regulators.  The one you've chosen is one of them.
It's been one of the top rated regulators in every test I've seen.

Unless things have changed, Scuba Pro warantees their equipment only if it
is purchased from an authorized Scuba Pro dealer.  The Scuba Pro warantee
includes the cost of parts for annual service for as long as the original
purchaser owns the regulator.  That's a significant annual savings.  Leisure
Pro did not used to be an authorized dealer and, based on the price
differential, I suspect they still aren't.  At one time, presumably still,
Leisure Pro waranteed the equipment they sold themselves.  I didn't see a
word about warantee or service costs in the information you referenced.  Be
sure you fully understand all the costs and benefits of where you purchase
your regulator.  Also keep in mind that, even if Leisure Pro provides the
same warantee service, you're going to have to send your regulator to them
for annual service as opposed to having them serviced locally.  Another
consideration may be what happens if the servicing doesn't turn out right.
It's only happened to me once in a lot of years of service, but when it did,
I returned to my local shop and got things squared away in minutes rather
than days or, perhaps, even weeks.

When you're sure you fully understand what you get from Leisure Pro versus
your local dive shop, you should be better able to decide how to proceed.

Do some research on the Suunto Cobra before  you buy it.  The add mentions a
new algorithm, suggesting the manufacturer may have addressed issues with
the old one.  The Suunto computers are known for having a highly
conservative algorithm for both air and nitrox no decompression times, for
calculating a different, shallower, maximum operating depth for nitrox than
what you get  by applying the industry standard formula and for significant
time penalties for those that approach what Suunto considers the maximum
acceptable partial pressure of oxygen.  While concervative is not bad,
forced conservatism tends to annoy more of us than it pleases.  I do not use
or recommend Suunto computers specifically for this reason.

Personally, I don't like air integrated computers.  Some like the
information they provide.  Others, including me, do not find the integrated
feature to be worth the changes in what and how information is displayed
and, more importantly to me, do not like tying the computer function to the
contents gauge function.  I've never had a problem with a computer (I change
batteries often to be sure I don't), but I have had problems a couple times
with pressure gauges.  Swapping out a SPG normally takes minutes.  Swapping
out a computer with it, normally means sitting out of a day of diving.
Losing a day of diving locally, is not a big deal.  Losing one while I'm on
a dive vacation is a serious issue to me.  YMMV.

If my reasons are not significant to you, then go for it.  The other side of
the coin is that Suunto computers have a good reputation for consistency,
quality and longevity.  You may also like the fact that, unlike many
computers, Suuntos can be set to gauge mode, something that's handy for free
diving and some other applications.  Curtis will probably come along and
describe those other applications.  Consider what he says.

> I'm also looking at a BC (Seaquest Balance) with integrated octo breather
> and so on.  Leisure pro doesn't carry it, or at least I can't find it, but
> I'm paying $649 at the dive shop, the Balance that LP does carry is
> discounted 25%.  Do BC's require assembly as well?

I presently dive a steel plate and wing.  I generally recommend anyone
considering the purchase of a buoyancy control device at least try this
system before deciding what to get.  My previous BCD and alternate were
SeaQuest products, including a SeaQuest Air Source combination alternate and
BC inflator.

I had no significant problems with my SeaQuest equipment.  The BCD lasted
well and, in fact, is still in excellent condition.  My wife doesn't dive
much any more, but if she did, she'd still be using her SeaQuest equipment.
I did a lot of shopping before chosing the Air Source alternate/inflator.  I
tried offerings by US Divers/Aqualung, Zeagle, Scuba Pro, Oceanic and
others.  The SeaQuest was, by a substantial margin, the best and most
comfortable to use for me.  I've moved on to a different configuration since
then, but of the jacket style BCDs and alternate/inflator systems, the
SeaQuest was my first choice.  I'm reasonably sure that SeaQuest still makes
a quality product, but, unless I'm mistaken, their current
alternate/inflator is not the same as what I once used.

In making your final choice, here are a few things to consider:
1. Any BCD with a hard plate, whether it's plastic, rubber of metal, will be
harder to pack than a BCD without one.  I don't know whether the Balance has
an integrated plate or not.  You should know before buying.  There are
reasons for chosing a BCD with a plate.  If this one does, make sure they
make sense for the diving you will be doing.  If you are going to travel to
dive, don't fail to give the Dive Rite Transpac (sp?) a try.
2. T+here are advantages and disadvantages to a weight integrated BCD.
Consider them before making your choice.  One to be sure you consider is
boarding a boat.  In some circumstances, divers find it easiest to hand a
weight belt up to the boat before exiting with the balance of their
equipment still on.  Depending on how much weight you need, hauling
everything up the ladder can cause back pain in some divers.  There's a very
recent thread in this group discussing that same issue.  If you chose weight
integrated, also check to be sure the lift of the BCD will support the
weight of all your equipment in the water you'll be diving in.  My 18 lb
lift wing, for example, will support everything I wear (very little weight)
in salt water, but not in fresh water.  There are horror stories of divers
watching their gear sink out of sight in depths too great for recovery.
3. Your alternate regulator needs annual service too.  Buying a SeaQuest
alternate from one source and a Scuba Pro primary from Leisure Pro probably
means sending the components to different places for service.  In addition
to the time and effort involved, that may introduce a different problem.
First and second stages are normally serviced and adjusted together.  That
may not be the case with your alternate.  I had the same issue when I used a
US Divers/Aqualung primary and a SeaQuest alternate.  Because I bought both
my primary and alternate from authorized dealers, I was able to find a local
shop that would service both.  You may not be as lucky.
4. The low pressure inflator hose for a combination alternate/inflator is
not likely to be the standard size for an inflator only and, unless the
industry got smarter since I bought mine, may not even be the same as the
hose made for a different brand alternate/inflator.  This means that a
renting a portion of your equipment if/when something goes wrong with one
component or the other, may not be as easy as it is for a more standard
setup.  Component problems aren't exactly common, but they're not exactly
rare either.

I know I've complicated your purchase decision.  Hopefully, consideration of
the points I've raised will at least help ensure you understand the
consequences of whatever choice you finally make.

Lee
Star - 02 Jul 2006 16:31 GMT
> > http://www.leisurepro.com/Prod/SCPM25S60.html
>
[quoted text clipped - 117 lines]
>
> Lee

Lee covered all the important stuff as usual - great advice.

Regulator service is critical.  Unless you are capable of doing your
own service, AND can get the parts you need, you will want to be able
to walk into a shop and say - service please.

You also will find, once you've invested in all the bells and whistles
and discarded them, that you much prefer simplicity UW.   Consider the
BP/wing, long hose, bungee-ed backup, SPG instead of a console, and a
simple depth gauge and wrist compass.  Add a computer if you like
later; one that you can plug in at least 3 mixes up to 50%  if you want
top end, if not, one that you can plug in varying mixes up to 40% for
recreational diving.

I've never rigged a student with a BP/wing and had them NOT love it.
Consider this option.  If you travel, you miight opt for the travel
version, which is lighter. There are smaller-cut BP's available in cse
your wife is more comfortable with that - I'm not probably because I
had used the man-size since way before the small ones were available.
They just don't feel as stable to me with a single 95, or any doubles
larger than my 63's.  I'm 5'2" and about 215 lbs (in all my gear,
manifolded 95's, a stage, cannister light, and pre-dive Oreos - gotcha
there!)  and am fine with the large plate. The BP also gives you more
options of adding lead without wrapping it around your waist or stowing
it in your pockets, which can be unstable at best judging from the
amount of lead I've retrieved fromt he bottom of various dive sites.

With 4 D-rings, you'll have lots of places to clip all kinds of stuff.
You can add a waist pocket if you need one, or thigh pockets on your
drysuit.  I like thigh pockets.

In considering an alternate air source, remember that either you (or in
my case as I donate my primary, ME) would need to breathe the thing.
Therefore, my primary and secondary both are of the same high quality.
When Air2's first came out, I was DM'ing classes at a local shop and
they said - here put this on your gear, we are selling them now." I
hopped int he quarry, went to depth and breathed, hopped back out and
said "Get this thing OFF of me."  For sure, air sharing should be a
very temporary and nearly last resort thing, but between teaching and
doing drills, I like being comfortable. Breathing from an integrated
secondary is NOT my idea of comfort.

Lastly and most importantly, you need to be able to swim up your gear
in the event of a complete loss of any means to inflate.  This is an
issue for me, being not very big and from time to time wearing pretty
heavy gear.  I can't remember the last time I used any lead in fresh
water, even with an Al plate.   Out here in the salty Sound, I will
wear a few lbs with a 95.

Will the LDS let you try the gear you are contemplating in their pool?
THat way, you'll have at least some idea of how it fits and feels UW.
Important, IMHO.

Good luck, and safe diving!

*
cavey_curtis@$$ yahoo.com - 02 Jul 2006 16:45 GMT
> Regulator service is critical.  Unless you are capable of doing your
> own service, AND can get the parts you need, you will want to be able
[quoted text clipped - 46 lines]
> THat way, you'll have at least some idea of how it fits and feels UW.
> Important, IMHO.

   Damn, I am impressed.

Curtis
Al Wells - 02 Jul 2006 17:50 GMT
>  Damn, I am impressed.

Both Lee and Star gave excellent advice, but unfortunately, I've found
it is really hard to talk a new diver out of the whiz-bang gear he has
his heart set on. Some of them come around later, after they see it in
real life on real dives (not a demo in a quarry or spring). I fondly
remember one such diver who came on that Thanksgiving dive we had
several years ago, and when he saw the system being used by people who
weren't trying to sell him anything, the lights turned on, and he became
an excellent diver and buddy.

Maybe we should go diving more with the new folks.

Shawn B. - 03 Jul 2006 05:31 GMT
> Both Lee and Star gave excellent advice, but unfortunately, I've found
> it is really hard to talk a new diver out of the whiz-bang gear he has
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> weren't trying to sell him anything, the lights turned on, and he became
> an excellent diver and buddy.

I have no way of knowing whether I like air-integrated or not.  No, they
won't let us try the BC in the pool and still not purchase it (or return it
if not defective).  Many of those people say they use air-integrated on some
dives but during training everything is octo.  Many people I know that have
1000's of dives like air-integrated others don't.

Really, but still, even with them, I've yet to be able to try one.  As of
yet, don't know what I want or whether I'll like it.  I just need
*something*.  My wife really likes the air-integrated for some reason.  I
haven't made up my mind.  I can think of many good/bad things either way.

Thanks,
Shawn
Star - 03 Jul 2006 06:32 GMT
> > Both Lee and Star gave excellent advice, but unfortunately, I've found
> > it is really hard to talk a new diver out of the whiz-bang gear he has
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> Thanks,
> Shawn

I liked an air integrated Cochran model I was trying out once, for a
company who planned to build a similar model. How sweet it was - told
me everything I could ever want to know about my dive.  Dang, I liked
the thing.  Several of us were using them during a week of trimix dives
in the Eastern basin of Lake Erie.  They were lovely at depth, but at
the last 2 stops, above maybe 40 ft, they'd all start beeping like mad
and stop timing - not a good thing at all.  About the 3rd dy out, we
figured out that the depth finder on the boat interfered with the
signals from the transmitters.  What a good time THAT would have been
if we hadn't been wearing bottom timers and had backup tables cut.
Worthless, they were...... but hey you usually have to find these
things out the hard way.  Obviously, I did.

Perhaps the shop has rental models of the BC's you want and you could
try those in the pool?
Lee Bell - 03 Jul 2006 12:56 GMT
> I have no way of knowing whether I like air-integrated or not.  No, they
> won't let us try the BC in the pool and still not purchase it (or return
> it if not defective).  Many of those people say they use air-integrated on
> some dives but during training everything is octo.  Many people I know
> that have 1000's of dives like air-integrated others don't.

Welcome to the confusion of selecting diving equipment.  Now you know why so
many of us have so much equipment sitting around we never use any more.

You have confused a few terms.  Air integrated refers to your computer.  Air
integrated computers take some form of gas pressure input and include some
pressure related information through the computer.  The information either
comes from a hose attached to the computer or a remote unit mounted on the
first stage, that communicates wirelessly with it.  All air integrated
computers tell the user the pressure in the tank.  Most also provide other
information, things like how long you can remain at your current depth at
your current breathing rate or when, based on your remaining gas supply, you
should begin your ascent.

The other issue is whether to use a traditional octopus, a necklaced
alternate or a combination BCD inflator/alternate.  You know what a
traditional octopus looks like and, by now, you seem to have a pretty good
idea what a combination inflator/alternate looks like.  The necklaced
alternate is another form of alternate second stage, usually on a slightly
shorter than normal hose, that has a bungie or surgical tubing necklace
attached.  The necklace goes around your neck and the alternate goes just
under your chin.  With this configuration, as with the combination
inflator/alternate, in an air sharing event, the primary second stage is
donated to the out of air diver and the alternate is used by the diver
wearing it.  Having it close under the chin increases the odds that the OOA
diver will reach for the regulator you want them to have anyway and is as
good or better than any other configuration at ensuring that you can fine
your alternate quickly even in a crisis situation.

Integrated Computers

The issues I have with air integrated computers include display, information
and reliability issues.
Display - The air integrated computers I'm familiar with display the
information the programmer things is most critical in any given situation.
While most, perhaps all, have alternate screens that give the "normal
information" you want from a computer, the "critical information" is either
on screen until  you act to get other information or one of two or more
displays that alternate.  The fact is, what the programmers think is most
critical does not always agree with what I think is most critical.  On a
planned no deco dive, I want such things as dive time, no deco time, and psi
all the time.  I don't mind if the computer shows me something it thinks is
important in addition to the basic information.  I just don't like the fact
that some show it to me instead of the information I'm most interested in.
Informtion - My wife's air integrated computer confused the hell out of her
at first.  She knew that our dives normally last about an hour, no matter
how deep we start out.  Just a few minutes into the dive, her computer was
telling her she had to begin her ascent in only a few minutes.  Of course,
the computer was really telling her how long she could safely remain at her
current depth, not how long her dive would last if she moved to a shallower
depth.  The information was not wrong, it just wasn't what she needed when
doing the kind of mulitlevel dive that computers facilitate.
Reliability - Reliability issues are different depending on the type of
computer you have.  If the computer is attached to a hose, you have a
directly opening into your computer.  That hose and it's connections are one
of the more common failure points in scuba equipment.  Computers that use a
remote sensor and wireless communication depend on a higher level of
technology which, almost by definition, can go wrong in more ways.  Star
mentioned one of them lost communication.  I had not heard of a unit that
got interference from a boat depth finder.  As she noted, that's a pretty
serious problem.  I have heard of units that got interferance from camera
strobes as well as some that lost communication because the tanks was
between the sending and receiving units.  If If  you have a problem with
your pressure measuring and reporting system, it's easy, with no particular
safety concerns, to beg borrow or rent an analog gauge.  If what went wrong,
however, is part of your computer, every computer manufacturer in the world
recommends you sit out at least 24 hours before diving with a different
computer.

Combination Inflator/Alternate

The choice between a combination inflator/alternate and one of the other
options, is a bit harder.  Originally, I had a standard alternate.  Later, I
purchased a combination inflator/alternate.  Mine was, since I still have
it, is, an Oceanic Air Source.  The key things that led me to my unit are
how well it breathes, the availabilty of service, and the ability
comfortably turn my head in either direction while using it.  The last item
was the decisive one.  The Oceanic, at that time, came with a slightly
longer hose, making it more comfortable to use.  At the time, standard
training taught OOA divers to go for the octopus.  Accordingly, I developed
a  habit of informing my fellow divers, that if they needed assistance from
me, they should take the regulator from my mouth rather than try to use my
alternate.  I mentioned the service issue.  I got around it by finding a
local dealer that serviced Oceanics and US Divers, which is what my primary
was back then.  I did not regret, or change, my choice until other
configuration changes forced me to reconsider it.  I liked my
inflator/alternate and, if I were to dive with the same BCD, would use it
again.  The advantages, to me, outweigh the disadvantages.  If you buy
either of your regulators from an unofficial retailer, like buying Scuba Pro
from Liesure Pro, you may introduce a service issue that makes it more
desirable to have a primary and secondary by the same manufacturer.

I currently use a necklaced alternate because the combination unit does not
work well with a plate and harness system.  My SeaQuest BCD provided a means
to secure my combination inflator alternate so that it stayed where I wanted
it, but remained available if I wanted to breathe from it.  The harness on
my plate did not.  I could find no way to secure the somewhat longer hose
that did not also cause problems getting it in a hurry if I needed it.  I
liked the system well enough to try.  Eventually, I gave up and installed a
necklace alternate.  In my personal opinion, the necklaced alternate is the
best single equipment idea to be developed by the cave diving community.  It
works with my current plate and harness as well as my inflator/alternate
worked with my jacket style BCD.  If you are considering a plate, harness
and wing configuration, which I strongly recommend you at least try before
buying, or any other back inflation system, be sure that an
inflator/alternate works well with it before you buy.  If it does, it's not
a bad choice.  If it doesn't, be sure to give a necklaced alternate a try.

I don't know if you mentioned where you dive or not, but no matter where it
is, it's likelty that there are people around that use some form of DIR like
configuration.  Those of us that do, generally got there the hard way and,
for the most part, would love to save others the financial pain of multiple
equipment replacements.  If you see some people using metal plates, wings,
primary hoses 5 feet or longer, and necklaced alternates, find some time to
talk with them about their configuration.  You may find someone, like me,
that has access to more than one set and would be happy to help you set one
up and try it.  You never know until you ask.

The only other suggestion I have is something that's already been said.
Rent a variety of equipment until you have a better idea what you want, then
buy it.  You'll still make some mistakes, but they'll cost you less.

Lee
SpringDiver - 02 Jul 2006 11:44 GMT
>Greetings,
>
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>Thanks,
>Shawn

Shawn;

From the item description it's new unless otherwise stated. Call them
up and talk to them. I've ordered over $6K worth of dive gear from
these guys without a problem. Back when my wife and I were taking
lessons, the local shop in Ohio quoted me MSRP+10% (believe it or not)
for $4k worth of gear. I had the money and  was  going to pay it. I
thought it foolish to just hand them $4K did some shopping on my own.
I  found LP. I brought their quote (LP's) to the local dive store for
a little leverage. They got totally irate and told me that LP sold
junk. Anyway, I bought the stuff for $2k (half the quoted price) and
it was the exact same gear the LDS sold.

Here's the way it was then (years ago). I lost the manufacture's
warranty on the regulators, BCDs and computers and picked up LP's
warranty. Same warranty, but through LP (LP does stands by their
warranty). WHY you might ask did I lose the manufactures warranty?
Well in my case, the gear sold by LP was bought from other dive shops.
Dive shops that were going out of business sold their inventory (or
the bank sold it) to LP. The manufactures warranty is only good to the
original buyer.

The word on the street then was that the LP folks were vultures just
waiting to capitalize on the misfortunes of the local dive shops. Now,
you and I (well maybe you don't know yet) know different. It seems
that some folks that go into the dive business do it because the love
of the sport (also tremendous markups)  and aren't necessarily good
business people. Hence, they falter and fail. When they see the huge
markups on gear they get hungry only to realize that they must buy (in
some cases) large inventories of gear to participate. They sink
upwards of $60K in let's say Scubapro and struggle to move it.

Shawn, believe me, I've been on both sides of the counter. My deals
are cost plus 10% to the shop.

Check here for the LP story.

http://www.leisurepro.com/Content/FAQ.html#WarrantyPolicy

My experience folks. Just my experience.

Wayne
SpringDiver - 03 Jul 2006 00:17 GMT
>>Greetings,
>>
[quoted text clipped - 62 lines]
>
>Wayne

Shawn;

Aside from what I've said. I don't want you to misunderstand me. Hang
out at your local dive shop. make friends and by all means support
them with gear purchases if the price is fair. It is important to keep
these folks alive and well. Most of these folks love diving and offer
services beyond the gear on their walls and that's very important to
your diving career. To me, comradery is more important than a few
bucks.

My experience with the Ohio dive shop is the exception rather than the
rule I hope. If you do decide to buy from LP, I wouldn't advertise it
though. It will only compromise your relations with your LDS.

Also, you write about a BCD with a Seaquest Air Source Complete. I can
only guess that's what you imply by BCD w/integrated octo breather. I
take it that you haven't used one yet. Since it's a regulator, you'll
have to give it the same care as you would any second stage, if not
more than a standard alternate air source. You can sit on your BC, but
not on your regulator. And, because it is a regulator, it  should be
serviced at intervals recommended by the manufacturer. In addition,
your training taught you to provide your alternate air source to the
person with the problem. With the arrangement you describe, I'm sure
you know that you will provide your primary to the person in need of
air. No big problem except that this must be discussed and practiced
with your buddy (if unfamiliar) prior to the dive (pre-dive checkout).
You know the old adage about assume making an a.s out of you. Well,
with regard to diving, it can make you dead.

Personally, I like to keep things as simple as possible. For that,
I'll use the standard regulator setup for open water. Primary,
alternate air source and SPG connected to the first stage. I wrist
mount my computer. I feel that it's more convenient and safer for me
to bring the computer to my field of vision rather than glance away.
Your still going to have to look at your SPG, unless your computer has
integrated air pressure with transmitter.  In addition, I'll carry a
second computer in my BCD pocket in case the one on my wrist fails.
This is good for dive plans that depend on multi-level dive
capabilities provided by a computer.   Make sure both computers jive.

Wayne
Shawn B. - 03 Jul 2006 03:06 GMT
> My experience with the Ohio dive shop is the exception rather than the
> rule I hope. If you do decide to buy from LP, I wouldn't advertise it
> though. It will only compromise your relations with your LDS.

Sound advice.  I decided to pay full price MSRP from the dive shop for most
of the important stuff simply because of the warranty issue and because I
believe I received quality training from that place and want to recipricate
back.  They would rather me take my advanced lessons with them instead of
LASCUBA and I agree, they will be so much better but there are other factors
involved (none of which involve me wanting to do it "quick" or "cheap").
Just dropped $6k with them these last 4 weeks between my wife and I but I'm
really happy I did (and so is the owner, jokes aside, he's more happy that
I'm getting gear and diving than that I paid his mortgage payment this
month -- I think)...

Anyway, I do ask questions in this group and may not even do what the
consensus says, but in every case, I've been given something to think about
in the end I still do what I think works best for me.

If I purchase from LP (or other) I wouldn't be quick to advertise.  I gather
from the LDS that it wouldn't fly and they have a "I told you so attitude"
and use it as an oppurtunity to charge lots of fees for anything relating
the gear.  Buy it from them, they're happy to help in any way possible.

But its the brotherhood that I like about keeping up with the LDS.  Divers
seem to have much in common (when face to face and not mucking about in the
newsgroups) and so on forth...

Gots ta go.

Thanks,
Shawn
Lee Bell - 03 Jul 2006 13:00 GMT
> Anyway, I do ask questions in this group and may not even do what the
> consensus says, but in every case, I've been given something to think
> about in the end I still do what I think works best for me.

A very wise choice.

> But its the brotherhood that I like about keeping up with the LDS.  Divers
> seem to have much in common (when face to face and not mucking about in
> the newsgroups) and so on forth...

We have a lot in common here, too, it's just not always real obvious.

Popeye and I, for example, just had a pretty serious disagreement on quality
of training issues.  As annoying as he was (from my perspective, of course)
we're still best of friends.

We've said it many times, it's worth saying again.  Rec.scuba is like the
bar on the corner.  We're all interested in scuba, but are just as likely to
discuss anything else here as we would be if sharing a pitcher across a bar
roon table.  It's that kind of place.

Lee
Popeye - 03 Jul 2006 15:50 GMT
>> Anyway, I do ask questions in this group and may not even do what the
>> consensus says, but in every case, I've been given something to think
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> Popeye and I, for example, just had a pretty serious disagreement on
> quality of training issues.  As annoying as he was

 :-)

> (from my perspective, of course) we're still best of friends.

 "We're best friends. It's not our job to always agree. It's our job to be
friends" - Doug Frederick, 2001

> We've said it many times, it's worth saying again.  Rec.scuba is like the
> bar on the corner.  We're all interested in scuba, but are just as likely
> to discuss anything else here as we would be if sharing a pitcher across a
> bar roon table.  It's that kind of place.
>
> Lee
Al Wells - 02 Jul 2006 16:15 GMT
> Are the
> items sold from leisurepro new (not refurbished or used) and do these
> particular items require any assembly that a new diver wouldn't know how to
> figure out?

Springdiver told you the same thing I understand on the gear and
warranties.

Your regulator will come with the second stage attached to the first
stage. It will be tuned so it works ok, but not tuned the way I would
want it. You will have to attach the hoses for the BCD inflator/octo,
and the SPG or air integrated computer. If you decide against the
octo/inflator, you will also have to attach the octo.
ben bradlee - 02 Jul 2006 22:53 GMT
> Are the items sold from leisurepro new (not refurbished or used) and do
> these particular items require any assembly that a new diver wouldn't know
> how to figure out?
>
> Do BC's require assembly as well?

While it isn't essential to wait or have answers to your questions, you'd be
better off to have the answer to these and many other questions before you
buy your own gear.  Rent gear and get enough dives to know if you're going
to continue with the sport.  Make a note when you find a piece of gear you
like; buy it when you're sure you will use it.

You can Google for information on vendors.  Without too much looking you'll
find both good and bad.
dweeb - 03 Jul 2006 21:35 GMT
>  and do these > particular items require any assembly that a new diver wouldn't
> know how to figure out?

If you have to ask this, you need to do all your shopping at a dive
shop.  Internet shopping, and the savings it affords, are for those who
know the products they are buying and don't need additional service,
support, or information,  People who have positive experiences shopping
online have leveraged their knowledge capital, instead of paying money
for the expertise of others - there is no truly free lunch.   That
said, this:

> No, they won't let us try the BC in the pool and still not purchase
> it (or return it if not defective).

tells me you need to find a new local dive shop.  The owner of the shop
I work for is one of the few people in this world who can squeeze a
nickel as well as I can - the shop's van is held together by rust, and
he's running shop management software so old it runs under MS-DOS, but
everything in that shop can be returned or exchanged for 60 days after
purchase, AND he price matches some online offers.

Alternatively, I'd ask your shop owner, "If I can't try or exchange,
then where's the benefit in buying from you rather than online?"

In the online versus local issue, I apply a few simple principles:

-be realistic about the level of support you need, and be willing to
pay for it.
-No one should have to pay for service they neither need nor use.
-A business should deliver incremental meaningful benefit for every
dime it charges above its competition.

Oh, and Luann, dear:

> About the 3rd dy out, we figured out that the depth finder on the boat
> interfered with the signals from the transmitters.

The computer Shawn is talking about has a hose
Star - 03 Jul 2006 23:07 GMT
> Oh, and Luann, dear:
>
> > About the 3rd dy out, we figured out that the depth finder on the boat
> > interfered with the signals from the transmitters.
>
> The computer Shawn is talking about has a hose

Thank you, darling dweeb.

*
JOF - 04 Jul 2006 01:06 GMT
> > Oh, and Luann, dear:
> >
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Thank you, darling dweeb.

Stop being nice to him. It's unnatural. He'll think yer an impostor.

JF
Star - 04 Jul 2006 04:26 GMT
> > > Oh, and Luann, dear:
> > >
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> JF

Hey!  I'm nice to *everybody.*

(well, almost.)

*
Scott - 04 Jul 2006 05:27 GMT
> Hey!  I'm nice to *everybody.*
>
> (well, almost.)

<ehcoubullshitgh>
Star - 04 Jul 2006 05:31 GMT
> > Hey!  I'm nice to *everybody.*
> >
> > (well, almost.)
>
> <ehcoubullshitgh>

I said "almost."

;-P

*
Scott - 04 Jul 2006 06:07 GMT
> > <ehcoubullshitgh>

> I said "almost."

> ;-P

I know.

You hate it when I know, dont you?

Admit it.

Not your fault, I had Sisters.

Pops had Sisters too.

Some Of Us Brothers (SOUB's for short)  have a different perspective, "post
Sister" (meaning subsequent to);

If you all really want to rule the world, you are going to have to reign in
sisters, and keep using the boobs.

I have to say, though, Hillary wont fly.

If that tramp is the best the Womens Movement can up with, you better stick
with U-Haul..
Star - 04 Jul 2006 06:16 GMT
> > > <ehcoubullshitgh>
>
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> If that tramp is the best the Womens Movement can up with, you better stick
> with U-Haul..

well, okay, you got me.

I don't think I could be nice to Hillary.

*
Scott - 04 Jul 2006 16:12 GMT
> > Scott wrote:

> > If you all really want to rule the world, you are going to have to reign in
> > sisters, and keep using the boobs.

> > I have to say, though, Hillary wont fly.

> > If that tramp is the best the Womens Movement can up with, you better stick
> > with U-Haul..

> well, okay, you got me.

See? You were warned.

> I don't think I could be nice to Hillary.

I cant figure out why anyone would ever feel the need to try.

The Democrat Party could do so much better, but they wont.

Under the bus.

98.0
Lee Bell - 04 Jul 2006 12:06 GMT
> In the online versus local issue, I apply a few simple principles:
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> -A business should deliver incremental meaningful benefit for every
> dime it charges above its competition.

I used to think much the same way, but I'm having second thoughts.
Interestingly, it's my shooting that caused this rather than my diving.
Thanks to all the competition from on line sources, I can't buy much of
anything for my reloading or shooting locally.  I had to buy electronic
hearing protectors, bullets for my reloading, primers for reloading, a
Crossman pump pellet pistol, a .22 target gauge, dies for my reloading press
and even the standard velocity .22 bullets I need for target applications,
on line.  None of the above was available locally.  Go figure.

I generally shop local dive shops because I'm an impulse buyer.  When I
decide I want something, I want it now, not a week from now.  Unfortunately,
for the local dive shops, I don't buy enough to keep them in business.
Fortunately for them, and me, newer divers, who need the kind of support
dive shops provide do spend enough, but not by much.

Lee
Popeye - 04 Jul 2006 15:51 GMT
> > In the online versus local issue, I apply a few simple principles:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> in business. Fortunately for them, and me, newer divers, who need the kind
> of support dive shops provide do spend enough, but not by much.

 You also got a plethora of LDSs, too.

 There's only one habitable LDS (of 5) in my area of the state.

Signature

                                Popeye
        "Best thing for him, really, his therapy was
           going nowhere."  -Dr. Hannibal Lector.

                   www.finalprotectivefire.com

Lee Bell - 04 Jul 2006 23:28 GMT
>  You also got a plethora of LDSs, too.

True.  At least one of them's pretty good too, but it's a bit of a drive.

Lee
 
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