Scuba Forum / General / June 2006
Dive computer all I need or do I need to continue filling out the form after every dive?
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Mermaid Diver - 22 Jun 2006 15:40 GMT This is my first post, so please forgive me if I am in the wrong area or offend anyone.
I was certified 10 years back, but did not dive much. I got my recertification last year. Since then, I got my Nitrox class and dove off of Cozumel. I live in Southern California. As such, I will be doing most of my diving in the channel islands eventhough my sister has a house in Cozumel she uses one weekend out of the year.
I own all my gear. Everything is new or have not been used much. One item I would like some advise with is my dive computer. I purchased a console UVVATEC Prime computer by ScubaPro. I have read the manual about five times end to end. Ironically, I am not very comfortable using it eventhough I can maneuver it pretty well. I have taken it on several dives. The computer seems to perform very well.
My question to you; Do I still need to complete my dive planning and filling out the critical form after every dive? After diving, I notice only the new divers learning or getting their certification are filling out their dive books. I am curious if learning my computer and understanding the concepts is sufficient. I hate writing or reading while on a dive boat because I am so susceptible to sea sickness or getting dizzi.
My computer appears to keep a log of my dive. Furthermore, it alerts me if my bottom time is too long, ascent is too fast, or if I need a deco stop etc. It really is a handy tool.
Regards and thank you for your time.
Lee Bell - 22 Jun 2006 16:45 GMT > This is my first post, so please forgive me if I am in the wrong area > or offend anyone. You're not in the wrong place and we're a lot more likely to offend you than you are to offend us. We tend to be rough bunch, s you'll soon realize. Stick around long enough to learn how you fit in and you're likely to find an awful lot of very good information here.
> One item I would like some advise with is my dive computer. I purchased > a > console UVVATEC Prime computer by ScubaPro. I have read the manual > about five times end to end. Ironically, I am not very comfortable > using it even though I can maneuver it pretty well. I have taken it on > several dives. The computer seems to perform very well. If you understand your dive computer and get the information you need in order to be safe from it, you're in good shape. Comfort with using it will come with time.
> My question to you; Do I still need to complete my dive planning and > filling out the critical form after every dive? After diving, I notice [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > while on a dive boat because I am so susceptible to sea sickness or > getting dizzi. Let's first dispense with the word "need," replacing it with "should." There's very little a recreational diver needs to do, but a lot of things they should do for various reasons. Everything following is my opinion. Take what you like, reject what you don't.
I think it's a good idea to continue your dive planning, at least until you get more comfortable with your new computer. By the time you're more comfortable with it, you'll have a better idea how much planning is appropriate for each dive. Most of us at least plan our maximum depth time. Often as not, the depth is determined by where the bottom is and the time is determined by what the boat operator will allow. The more complex the dive, the more we're likely to plan. The deeper the dive is, the more likely things like gas supply are to be important, particularly on dives where some decompression obligation is likely. Some computers provide information on air consumption, but none that I know of do a particularly good job of it. A wise diver thinks about such issues before the dive starts. Planning is a good thing, but how much planning you do is very much a matter of personal preference and risk assessment.
Filling out a log book is a different issue. The short answer is that there is no requirement for filling out a log book and certainly no requirement that you do it while you're still on the boat. A log book can be handy for a couple of things. First, and foremost in my opinion, a log book is a history of your diving. Years from now, it's been more than 40 for me, you're likely to appreciate the kinds of things you'll chose to record now. Good dives, bad dives, equipment issues and everything else is part of your history as a diver. If you don't record it, you'll lose it. Personally, I wish I had kept a log book for all my dives. I try to now.
Depending on your certification agency, there may be other reasons to keep a lot book. Some agencies require certain levels of experience before issuing some certifications. While the number of dives you've logged is not a great indication of your experience, it's all the agencies normally have to go on. If your agency requires something like that for a course you think you might eventually take, it's a good idea to provide for it now rather than try to recreate it later
> My computer appears to keep a log of my dive. Furthermore, it alerts > me if my bottom time is too long, ascent is too fast, or if I need a > deco stop etc. It really is a handy tool. You used the right word, "tool." A computer is a tool. Except for those who never progress beyond the simplest of dives, a computer does not relieve you of the need to understand what you're doing. You should not depend on your computer to warn you when it's time for you to begin your ascent or to warn you if you're ascending too fast. It's nice that it does, but both of those are something you should be sufficiently aware of that you don't need the warning. Further, keep in mind that your computer's ascent alarm means you are ascending too fast. If you hear that alarm, you've already made a mistake.
> Regards and thank you for your time. You're welcome.
Lee
PS: We sure do prefer at least a first name for people here. We're a friendly, if a bit rough, bunch and it's always nice to be able to put a name with an e-mail handle.
Carl Nisarel - 22 Jun 2006 16:22 GMT Is túisce deoch ná scéal, "Lee Bell" <pleebell2@bellsouth.net> rista:
> you're likely to find > an awful lot of very good information here. With a noise to signal ratio of 1000:1, she's not likely to see it.
 Signature Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
John Hanson - 23 Jun 2006 05:39 GMT >> This is my first post, so please forgive me if I am in the wrong area >> or offend anyone. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Stick around long enough to learn how you fit in and you're likely to find >an awful lot of very good information here. Unless you come up against the likes of me, right Lee:-)
>PS: We sure do prefer at least a first name for people here. We're a >friendly, if a bit rough, bunch and it's always nice to be able to put a >name with an e-mail handle. Oh, face it Lee, most of you are a bunch of blowhard candy a.ses. You couldn't address my questions/points so you pretended to killfile me. So, I know have carte blanche with all of your post and you won't be able to follow up. Of course, you can still follow up to a reply to my post but everyone knows that is a sign of a Complete Loser.
Dillon Pyron - 25 Jun 2006 02:53 GMT >>> This is my first post, so please forgive me if I am in the wrong area >>> or offend anyone. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >able to follow up. Of course, you can still follow up to a reply to >my post but everyone knows that is a sign of a Complete Loser. Damn John, you just proved Carl right. That, sir, is no mean feat.
 Signature dillon
JAFO
Le fantôme du Parc - 25 Jun 2006 05:53 GMT Lee Bell a écrit :
You should not depend on
> your computer to warn you when it's time for you to begin your ascent or to > warn you if you're ascending too fast. Well, I spent 15 minutes with a manta ray at North Elphinstone reef (red sea) 3 weeks ago. I shooted and followed it in between 40 and 15 meters, doing a yoyo dive that could have brought me to the Marsa Alam deco chamber. I was happy to hear my Aladin Prime "too fast ascent" alert. In some circumstances you don't feel your ears anymore... You just get higher and higher from the depth and deeper and deeper from the surface. Some pictures from one of my "underwater-yo-yo" fellows, Dominique, here: http://homepage.mac.com/antonydom/PhotoAlbum70.html
By the way : excellent computer and it's deco program is not as deco-demanding as Suunto's. You decide.
olivier
Al Wells - 22 Jun 2006 17:02 GMT > My question to you; Do I still need to complete my dive planning and > filling out the critical form after every dive? After diving, I notice [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > while on a dive boat because I am so susceptible to sea sickness or > getting dizzi. First, welcome to the group. Someone will be along shortly to ask about your attire ;-).
If you want to dive within the guidelines of traditional training, using the computer for dives within the NDL is fine. It will keep you at least as safe as the equations are. The problem is what if you do 1 or more dives and want to do another but something has happened to the computer (malfunction, fell overboard, stolen, etc). If you at least write down the times and depths of each dive, you will be able to go back and figure out your pressure group so you can continue diving.
You will also find that because it samples your depth constantly and calculates LOADING based on actual depths, the computer will "let" you stay longer than the tables will and the dive you just did may be a "deco" dive by the tables considering only your maximum depth.
Greg Mossman - 22 Jun 2006 17:54 GMT > The problem is what if you do 1 > or more dives and want to do another but something has happened to the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > stay longer than the tables will and the dive you just did may be a > "deco" dive by the tables considering only your maximum depth. Which unfortunately renders the good suggestion of your first paragraph moot. If my computer dies while on an intensive dive trip (dive resort or liveaboard), I'm left with numbers such as "130 feet for 45 minutes" and the tables would declare me dead due to all the missed deco. The idea is sound for wrecks or constant-depth reefs (i.e., Boynton), but the only easy backup solution for multidepth diving (walls, pinnacles) is to bring another computer like I'm gonna do on my upcoming trip. Besides, they just recently recalled my Suunto, so I'm mandated to dive with a backup computer until I feel like taking it into the shop.
Lee Bell - 23 Jun 2006 03:27 GMT >> You will also find that because it samples your depth constantly and >> calculates LOADING based on actual depths, the computer will "let" you [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Which unfortunately renders the good suggestion of your first paragraph > moot. Actually no. We've had this discussion before. If your computer didn't tell you it was a deco dive before it crapped out, then a nice slow ascent and safety stop will ensure it's not a deco dive when you reach the surface. If you don't have a missed deco obligation, then there's at least one repetitive dive group that you know you are at or below.
Lee
Greg Mossman - 23 Jun 2006 08:24 GMT > Actually no. We've had this discussion before. If your computer didn't > tell you it was a deco dive before it crapped out, then a nice slow ascent > and safety stop will ensure it's not a deco dive when you reach the > surface. If you don't have a missed deco obligation, then there's at least > one repetitive dive group that you know you are at or below. But you did have a missed deco obligation, according to the table.
Lee Bell - 23 Jun 2006 13:12 GMT >> Actually no. We've had this discussion before. If your computer didn't >> tell you it was a deco dive before it crapped out, then a nice slow >> ascent and safety stop will ensure it's not a deco dive when you reach >> the surface. If you don't have a missed deco obligation, then there's at >> least one repetitive dive group that you know you are at or below.
> But you did have a missed deco obligation, according to the table. Which table? The wheel, if used to evaluate the multilevel dives you had done, would not. Tables not designed to work with multi level dives would. They'd be wrong. More importantly, you'd know they are wrong.
If you're not bent, your repetitive dive group is the same as it would be if you had just completed required deco. Your next dive may have to be short, but you can do it on a table.
Lee
Greg Mossman - 23 Jun 2006 17:15 GMT > Which table? The wheel, if used to evaluate the multilevel dives you had > done, would not. Tables not designed to work with multi level dives > would. They'd be wrong. More importantly, you'd know they are wrong. I know they're wrong already. I've done plenty of dives between 71-80' well over the 25 minutes or so my NASDS tables allow without deco, for instance. But just because I know they're wrong, doesn't mean I'm going to violate them at whim, making up my own profiles as I go like a DIR zealot.
> If you're not bent, your repetitive dive group is the same as it would be > if you had just completed required deco. Your next dive may have to be > short, but you can do it on a table. Maybe you can, the guy who's already been bent twice. Me, I'll sit out the rest of the day and drink to safety.
Lee Bell - 24 Jun 2006 03:00 GMT > I know they're wrong already. I've done plenty of dives between 71-80' > well over the 25 minutes or so my NASDS tables allow without deco, for > instance. But just because I know they're wrong, doesn't mean I'm going to > violate them at whim, making up my own profiles as I go like a DIR zealot. "At a whim" does not describe the situation and you would not be making up your own profile.
>> If you're not bent, your repetitive dive group is the same as it would be >> if you had just completed required deco. Your next dive may have to be >> short, but you can do it on a table.
> Maybe you can, the guy who's already been bent twice. Me, I'll sit out > the rest of the day and drink to safety. Your choice. Reverting to the tables had nothing to do with my being bent. When I took the undeserved hit, the one which left me with no noticeable long term effects, I was within the no deco limits of my Monitor I computer, but apparently, not by enough. The second time, the one that left me a permanent reminder, was a direct result of the mate on a liveaboard filling my tanks with air instead of the nitrox I contracted for on the second day of a 6-7 dive a day trip. If he's done it on day one, I probably never would have known.
I don't recommend reverting to tables either, but not because it can't be done safely. The problem with reverting to tables is that the only repetitive dive group you are sure fits you is the most extreme group the table has and that tends to shorten the next dive and/or extend surface intervals. Unless it's one of those "must do" dives, I'd wait the 24 hours too.
Lee
Greg Mossman - 24 Jun 2006 05:15 GMT > I don't recommend reverting to tables either, but not because it can't be > done safely. The problem with reverting to tables is that the only > repetitive dive group you are sure fits you is the most extreme group the > table has and that tends to shorten the next dive and/or extend surface > intervals. Unless it's one of those "must do" dives, I'd wait the 24 > hours too. I've got 35 must-do dives ahead of me next week. I'm bringing two computers.
ne333ro - 24 Jun 2006 07:46 GMT > > I don't recommend reverting to tables either, but not because it can't be > > done safely. The problem with reverting to tables is that the only [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > I've got 35 must-do dives ahead of me next week. I'm bringing two > computers. Hmmmmmmm, I've never been on a "must do" dive.
Lee Bell - 24 Jun 2006 09:18 GMT >> I've got 35 must-do dives ahead of me next week. I'm bringing two >> computers.
> Hmmmmmmm, I've never been on a "must do" dive. Then you are independently wealthy and your time is your own or you're not traveling to the right places to dive.
ne333ro - 24 Jun 2006 15:30 GMT > >> I've got 35 must-do dives ahead of me next week. I'm bringing two > >> computers. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Then you are independently wealthy and your time is your own or you're not > traveling to the right places to dive. Neither actually. I just think that getting in the mindset that there is such a thing as a "must do" dive is a good way to end up in trouble. I'm willing to thumb any dive, at any time, for any reason. I also won't jump all over a buddy who calls a dive for any reason, even a reason I don't agree with. That doesn't mean however, that I won't go solo.
Greg Mossman - 24 Jun 2006 19:16 GMT > Neither actually. I just think that getting in the mindset that there > is such a thing as a "must do" dive is a good way to end up in trouble. > I'm willing to thumb any dive, at any time, for any reason. I also > won't jump all over a buddy who calls a dive for any reason, even a > reason I don't agree with. That doesn't mean however, that I won't go > solo. If you're gonna nitpick like that, fine. They're not "must" do dives, they're "better do them unless something is really, really wrong" dives. If my ears are so plugged that diving is sure to explode my head, I'll thumb the dive. If I have a concussion, lose a limb, or am in a coma, I'll thumb the dive. If the boat thumbs the dive due to conditions, I'll thumb the dive instead of mutiny.
But they're "must do" in the sense that I'm not going to sit out if I have a teeny gear malfunction, the conditions are rough and I'm seasick, or, like you, if my buddy thumbs the dive. There are dives that one can always do again, and then there are dives that one probably will never get the chance to do again. The latter sort of dives are the least likely to get thumbed by me unless there's a damn good reason.
Le fantôme du Parc - 27 Jun 2006 10:22 GMT Al Wells a écrit : The problem is what if you do 1
> or more dives and want to do another but something has happened to the > computer (malfunction, fell overboard, stolen, etc). If you at least > write down the times and depths of each dive, you will be able to go > back and figure out your pressure group so you can continue diving. The solution to a possible computer crash is to keep your diving-buddy unchanged for the day... You will then have a second computer with the same day's log.
> You will also find that because it samples your depth constantly and > calculates LOADING based on actual depths, the computer will "let" you > stay longer than the tables will and the dive you just did may be a > "deco" dive by the tables considering only your maximum depth. In that case, if you change of buddy, you can choose the maximum non deco time allowed at the maximum depth of your computer-crash dive and apply it when using the tables during the next dive. In those conditions, find a buddy will be pretty difficult!!!
Since I do deco (this doesn't explain my poor english!!!) -I go CMAS rather than Padi but have both certifications- I do use two calculation systems: my uwatec plus another computer. Another good trick : dive Nitrox with air-feeded buddies and don't even tell your computer about your overdose of oxygen... A 7 days diving-cruise is worth 4 dives a day and requires this kind of "conservative behaviour".
Good bubbles to you Olivier
Ron Lee - 22 Jun 2006 17:09 GMT >This is my first post, so please forgive me if I am in the wrong area >or offend anyone. Amazing. A nice person asking about diving! I glanced through Lee's response and can't add anything. His comments were good as usual.
Have you ever dove at Monastery Beach?
Ron Lee
Greg Mossman - 22 Jun 2006 17:57 GMT > Have you ever dove at Monastery Beach? Monastery Beach is over 300 miles away from Southern California, sort of a long drive for a day of shore diving.
Ron Lee - 23 Jun 2006 05:15 GMT >> Have you ever dove at Monastery Beach? > >Monastery Beach is over 300 miles away from Southern California, sort of a >long drive for a day of shore diving. Day trip yes but I have flown to that area (actually Palo Alto) to dive in that area. It could be a weekend trip.
Ron Lee
Greg Mossman - 23 Jun 2006 08:20 GMT >>Monastery Beach is over 300 miles away from Southern California, sort of a >>long drive for a day of shore diving. > > Day trip yes but I have flown to that area (actually Palo Alto) to > dive in that area. It could be a weekend trip. But why would someone fly up to Northern California to dive when there's much better diving in Southern California? That's like asking a Floridian if they fly up to New Jersey to dive cold-water wrecks.
Lee Bell - 23 Jun 2006 13:08 GMT > But why would someone fly up to Northern California to dive when there's > much better diving in Southern California? That's like asking a Floridian > if they fly up to New Jersey to dive cold-water wrecks. That's in Canada, right?
Greg Mossman - 23 Jun 2006 17:12 GMT >> But why would someone fly up to Northern California to dive when there's >> much better diving in Southern California? That's like asking a >> Floridian if they fly up to New Jersey to dive cold-water wrecks. > > That's in Canada, right? I think so. Besides, with all the talk of diving gravesites, who'd wanna dive the NJ ocean? I've seen plenty of episodes of Sopranos when they're dumping bodies out there. Must be floating around everywhere, perhaps in thick mats resembling log jams or kelp beds.
Lee Bell - 24 Jun 2006 02:53 GMT > Besides, with all the talk of diving gravesites, who'd wanna dive the NJ > ocean? I've seen plenty of episodes of Sopranos when they're dumping > bodies out there. Must be floating around everywhere, perhaps in thick > mats resembling log jams or kelp beds. With all the stories about needles and other drug paraphernalia washing up on the shore, who'd want to even go into the water in NJ, even if Tony S. hadn't dumped all those bodies.
Lee
ben bradlee - 22 Jun 2006 17:28 GMT > I would like some advise with my dive computer. I purchased a > console Prime computer by ScubaPro. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > My computer appears to keep a log of my dive. If you want to keep the information permanently you will need to fill out your dive log or download the information from the computer and complete the dive log. Either way you are adding information to the record so the answer is yes. The procedure necessary to capture critical information is more time consuming without downloading from the computer. When you are writing take frequent breaks and look out to the horizon.
Popeye - 22 Jun 2006 17:59 GMT > This is my first post, so please forgive me if I am in the wrong area > or offend anyone. Oh, no offense at all...
Welcome to Rec.scuba.
What color panties do you have on?
> I was certified 10 years back, but did not dive much. I got my > recertification last year. Since then, I got my Nitrox class and dove > off of Cozumel. I live in Southern California. As such, I will be > doing most of my diving in the channel islands eventhough my sister has > a house in Cozumel she uses one weekend out of the year. Does she dive?
Twins, by any chance?
Just curious...
> I own all my gear. Everything is new or have not been used much. One > item I would like some advise with is my dive computer. I purchased a [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Regards and thank you for your time. Seriously, you can do that stuff later, post- dive (very).
You might think of the problem from another angle, treating yourself for the potential seasickness a little better.
The dive logging is pretty important (for future reference) until you can make snap decisions about weight and thermal protection from experience in all different environments.
I usually suggest logging the first 150 or so, for reference to advanced training (Divemaster, Instructor, ect).
You may not have that intention now, but who knows.
Myself, I just download my dives, and have for years.
I assume you have the download gear for your computer?
It will only store a finite number of dives.
 Signature Popeye "If one does as God does enough times, one will become as God is." -Dr. Hannibal Lector.
www.finalprotectivefire.com
mike gray - 23 Jun 2006 05:03 GMT > My question to you; Do I still need to complete my dive planning and > filling out the critical form after every dive? After diving, I notice [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > while on a dive boat because I am so susceptible to sea sickness or > getting dizzi. Don't forget that yer computer logs only x number of dives, then starts to erase the oldest.
Many old time divers do keep a log, we just don't fill it out on the boat, and most of us have our own set of data that we keep, not the stuff that's in the pre-printed log forms.
Star - 23 Jun 2006 05:06 GMT > This is my first post, so please forgive me if I am in the wrong area > or offend anyone. Not likely. :-)
> My computer appears to keep a log of my dive. Furthermore, it alerts > me if my bottom time is too long, ascent is too fast, or if I need a > deco stop etc. It really is a handy tool. > > Regards and thank you for your time. What Lee said - great suggestions!
* i'm much more than a princess but you don't have a name for it yet here on earth.
Okidiver - 24 Jun 2006 04:22 GMT Welcome aboard. Suggest U read your manual again, talk 2 folks who have that computer and get real comfy with it--very important tool that you need to get comfy with. If you can't get the hang of it, sell it and buy another. No need filling out your logbook on the boat--do it back at the room/home. Download capabilities for your computer are the heat and are a great place to stash your comments. Just make sure you print them out, as dive software isn't the most reliable stuff around. Oh, just dive, baby.
 Signature Rapid Rick "Just Dive, Baby"
"Mermaid Diver" <arielbanzon@yahoo.com> wrote in message
Ironically, I am not very comfortable
> using it eventhough I can maneuver it pretty well.
> My question to you; Do I still need to complete my dive planning and > filling out the critical form after every dive?
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