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Scuba Forum / General / July 2006LA SCUBA ADP programme
I've been looking at the LA scuba Advanced Diver Program http://www.lascuba.com/adp.html and it looks intense, seeing as it is 10 weekends in length, but it looks like it encompasses everything I have an interest in and is very reputable. Looks that way, anyway. What is y'all's opinion on this program? My wife and I just got certified last weekend NAUI open water and we're looking for the next steps (in training). Thanks, Shawn Is túisce deoch ná scéal, "Shawn B." <leabre@html.com> rista: > What is y'all's opinion on this program? My wife and I just > got certified last weekend NAUI open water and we're looking > for the next steps (in training). This is going to be hiliarious to watch.  SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com >> What is y'all's opinion on this program? My wife and I just >> got certified last weekend NAUI open water and we're looking >> for the next steps (in training). > > This is going to be hiliarious to watch. So what you're saying is: don't go? Thanks, Shawn >>> What is y'all's opinion on this program? My wife and I just >>> got certified last weekend NAUI open water and we're looking [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >Thanks, >Shawn no... he's a troll with a perverted view of whats gonna happen :P accurate but still perverted :D a lot of the regulars here have been diveing before most of the certifying agencies existed, back when it was jump in the water and hope the life insurace small print didn't specify scuba being excluded. They have a prejudiced view of modern dive schools with zero-to-hero programs. as such, you're going to get a lot of solid gold information and opinions scattered between a lot of swearing, flames, guns and ammo discussions, and miscellanious argument. the trick is to have a thick enough hide to hang around, and enough intelligence to separate the gold from the dross. >>>> What is y'all's opinion on this program? My wife and I just >>>> got certified last weekend NAUI open water and we're looking [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >the trick is to have a thick enough hide to hang around, and enough >intelligence to separate the gold from the dross. Probably the best description I've seen to date. Rick Simms ***************************** These days about half the stuff in my shopping cart says, "For fast relief." > a lot of the regulars here have been diveing before most of the > certifying agencies existed, back when it was jump in the water and > hope the life insurace small print didn't specify scuba being > excluded. They have a prejudiced view of modern dive schools with > zero-to-hero programs. Modern? L.A. County has been certifying divers since 1954. How many of the regulars have been diving longer than that? > Modern? L.A. County has been certifying divers since 1954. How many of > the regulars have been diving longer than that? Does snorkeling count? I had one of those masks with the two snorkels built around that time. Lee > Does snorkeling count? I had one of those masks with the two snorkels built > around that time. Was one snorkle for the air supply and the other for exhaust? >> Does snorkeling count? I had one of those masks with the two snorkels >> built >> around that time. > Was one snorkle for the air supply and the other for exhaust? Nope. Is túisce deoch ná scéal, "Shawn B." <leabre@html.com> rista: >>> What is y'all's opinion on this program? My wife and I just >>> got certified last weekend NAUI open water and we're looking [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > So what you're saying is: don't go? No, Shawn, what I'm saying is that the rec.scuba regulars here are going to treat you like a typical newbie - they'll be rude a.sholes. SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com > My wife and I just got certified > last weekend NAUI open water > and we're looking for the next > steps (in training). http://www.geocities.com/grumman581/welcome-rec-scuba.htm Next step? Hmmm... How about you just go diving? After you get a hundred dives under your belt, then you can decide whether you really need more training... You've got a C-card, you can now get your tanks filled... That's all you really need... >> My wife and I just got certified >> last weekend NAUI open water [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >need more training... You've got a C-card, you can now get your tanks >filled... That's all you really need... Hey, that's what I've been doing. But, I'll be taking my AOW before I have one hundred dives. I figure that I'll then do my first deep water dive with an experienced instructor instead of on my own. I'm sure Lee will find fault with this but that's okay. >>> My wife and I just got certified >>> last weekend NAUI open water [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >water dive with an experienced instructor instead of on my own. I'm >sure Lee will find fault with this but that's okay. My first deep dive was my second open water dive after getting certed. 105 feet on Santa Rosa. My first night dive was my sixth or seventh dive. The airplane off La Cieba. I'm guessing there aren't even any scraps left. Signaturedillon JAFO > I've been looking at the LA scuba Advanced Diver Program > http://www.lascuba.com/adp.html [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > last weekend NAUI open water and we're looking for the next steps (in > training). I want to make myself clear. I'm not saying I want to become and advanced diver after just a few classes, however intense. I'm much more interested in learning as much as I can and this looks like a good program that encapsulates just about everything. I want to learn this stuff and do some more advanced type of diving and log dives. I really have no interest in a particular certification saying I'm an advanced diver (for now) nor am I interested in bragging rights. This class looks like it encapsulates about everything I would eventually end up doing/studying anyway so what I'm really asking is: is this a matter of what you get is what you pay for and is it a respectable program? Should I look else where? I'm not worried about pacing myself as I'm well accustomed to intense studying/training and doing just fine. My wife is even better than I am at digesting. So just understand, this isn't about braggin rights and a certification saying I'm advanced. This is about a quest to learn and this happens to ba what looks like an interesting program that packs in everything I would otherwise be persuing, anyway. On this understanding I base the original question of this thread. Thanks, Shawn > I want to make myself clear. I'm not saying I want to become and advanced > diver after just a few classes, however intense. I'm much more interested [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > Thanks, > Shawn LA County Parks and Recreation developed one of the first diving programs in the US. It is a very good program for learning. It teaches the equivalent of advanced, rescue and a few specialties from the "big guys". If they offer you a chance to buy a Naui card for anything, you may have to cough up some more money...if you are in to cards. If you ever plan on going the "Pro" route, go ahead and buy the cards otherwise just pay attention to what is being discussed. Go ... dive ... learn ... have fun. Just my $.02 SignatureRay Contreras =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Webmonkey for: http://www.ossystems.com http://www.bobs-garage.com http://www.clanwolverine.org http://www.rayzplace.com > > I've been looking at the LA scuba Advanced Diver Program > > http://www.lascuba.com/adp.html [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > Thanks, > Shawn Shawn, your next steps need to be to just go DIVING. Find a few more experienced divers to hang with, join a club and attend their fun dives which are usually led by experienced divers - whatever you have to do, but go DIVING. To make the most of your next classes, whatever you choose them to be, you need the UW time. And that equals diving. What sites, no matter how seemingly pitiful they may be, are close enough to your home that you can make use of them several times each week? The biggest favor you could do yourself and your wife right now is to get 50-100 piddly little shallow dives under your belts. Give yourself little jobs to do on each dive. Choose a skill and work on that skill. For example, learn the perfect frog kick technique and use only the frog kick for as much of a dive as you can. On another dive after you learn the site really well, proctice your compass skills by placing a rock to mark the bottom and swimming a perfect square back to the rock. Do "show me" drills with your wife (no not THAT kind of drill, geez you guys!) Practice swimming perfectly horizontal. Practice not using your arms by crossing them in front of you or holding hands with yourself across your lower back. You get the picture. Then when you come back for AOW, it will be a piece of cake and you'll be ready to learn SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO much more! Enjoy diving; its about as good as anything gets. * It is a good thing, therefore, to make short excursions now and then to the bottom of the sea among dulse and coral, or up among the clouds on mountaintops, or in balloons, or even to creep like worms into dark holes and caverns underground, not only to learn something of what is going on in those out-of-the-way places, but to see better what the sun sees on our return to the common everyday beauty. ~ John Muir 1911 >> What is y'all's opinion on this program? My wife and I just got >> certified last weekend NAUI open water and we're looking for the next >> steps (in training). > > I want to make myself clear. I'm not saying I want to become and advanced > diver after just a few classes, however intense. You're not saying it, but you do want it. We all wanted it. Nothing to be ashamed of there. Knowing that it doesn't happen that way is a big step in the right direction. Grumman gave you the best advice so far. Get out there and do some diving. Your open water course should have provided you with the basics you need to dive and advance your skills safely. Many of us, maybe even most of us, think that it's a good idea to get some experience with your equipment and take the time to get really comfortable doing relatively easy dives before pursuing further training. Take some time to enjoy the sport and get really good at what you already know and then decide what, if anything, you want to do next. Once you're ready to advance to the next level, whenever you honestly determine you are ready, I suggest Advanced, Rescue and Nitrox courses. The advanced course should help you understand how to assess the risk of new types of diving and prepare you to deal with them. The Rescue course should help you learn how to assist others when you need to, but more importantly, should help you learn how to avoid needed help yourself. Nitrox is a bit different. I generally recommend a nitrox course when you begin to have to end dives because you're out of no decompression time rather than because you are out of gas. That's not an issue for most new divers, but as your consumption rate decreases and the depth and number of repetitive dives you do increases, nitrox use will become more advantageous. Just to clear up a common misconception, while nitrox is commonly used as a decompression gas after deep dives, it is not used for the deep portion of the dive. It's a way or reducing the amount of nitrogen in your system, all else being equal, allowing you to stay at the same depth longer, not a way to get to greater depths. I know nothing substantive about the LA Scuba ADP programme. Perhaps someone that knows about that particular program will speak up. Some, but not all courses of that type are more hype than substance. It can be important to know which is which. > So just understand, this isn't about braggin rights and a certification > saying I'm advanced. Don't scoff at being able to say you are advanced. Just be careful to be sure you are honest with yourself about just how advanced you are. Getting in over your head can alter your entire outlook on diving or leave you dead or permanently injured. These days, an advanced card, and progressiviely more advanced cards, are tickets to some interesting diving. It lets you board the boats to advanced sites. By itself, however, it does not necessarily mean you're safe diving those sites. Lee > I know nothing substantive about the LA Scuba ADP programme. Perhaps > someone that knows about that particular program will speak up. Some, but > not all courses of that type are more hype than substance. It can be > important to know which is which. It's definitely more substance than hype. But it's probably too "advanced" for a beginner, given that it's at least the equivalent of NAUI Rescue and NAUI Master, classes that hardly anyone suggest be taken immediately after open water certification. I second the suggestion to get plenty more dives in. > These days, an advanced card, and progressiviely more advanced cards, are > tickets to some interesting diving. It lets you board the boats to > advanced sites. By itself, however, it does not necessarily mean you're > safe diving those sites. And what boats are these, pray tell? I had heard that the only boats that cared about an "Advanced" certification were a few in Florida for the wrecks, but I had no problem showing a basic open water card to Silent World to dive the Spiegel Grove. > And what boats are these, pray tell? I had heard that the only boats that > cared about an "Advanced" certification were a few in Florida for the > wrecks, but I had no problem showing a basic open water card to Silent > World to dive the Spiegel Grove. I've run into a few of them in the Bahamas as well as in various parts of south Florida. Silent World doesn't count. They knew who every one of us was before we arrived, at least Ric did. Is the Grove an advanced dive? Lee >> And what boats are these, pray tell? I had heard that the only boats >> that cared about an "Advanced" certification were a few in Florida for [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Silent World doesn't count. They knew who every one of us was before we > arrived, at least Ric did. Is the Grove an advanced dive? Given that "Advanced" now means deeper than 60', and I hit 140' with an obligatory 8 min of deco diving on mixed gas in a strong current with lousy viz, I'd say so. I'm not sure how I would have handled the dive without such extensive background knowledge of "boat diving", "fish ID specialty", and "peak buoyancy" as demonstrated by my trusty Advanced Open Water card (in actuality my advanced card lists more advanced-sounding specialties, but it didn't have to). > Is the Grove an advanced dive? > Given that "Advanced" now means deeper than 60', and I hit 140' with an > obligatory 8 min of deco diving on mixed gas in a strong current with > lousy viz, I'd say so. Works for me. I once won a PADI deep diving video someplace. I was quite surprised to note that anything over 60 feet seemed to require that particular specialty. Prior to that, I sort of thought deep referred to something a bit below 60 feet, but what do I know. I've given up on predicting what dive operators and/or agencies rate as advanced. Depending on who you talk to, the walls of Cayman are advanced, but the walls of Cozumel are suitable for entry level training. Anything with an overhead is clearly advanced, more if the agency offers a specialty involving overheads, unless it's classed as a swimthrough, in which case, it's not advanced, even though it comes out over a 100 feet deep on a Coz wall. Shallow reefs, that sometimes have no current and sometimes have lots, are each dives, but a drift along a Boynton reef, where the boat comes to you at the end of the dive, is advanced, or not, depending on the operator. Hell, I'm still having trouble with the idea that diving with a gas other than air is no longer technical. > I'm not sure how I would have handled the dive without such extensive > background knowledge of "boat diving", "fish ID > specialty", and "peak buoyancy" as demonstrated by my trusty Advanced Open > Water card (in actuality my advanced card lists > more advanced-sounding specialties, but it didn't have to). If we did not know you were a highly skilled, knowledgeable and experienced diver, as demonstrated by reading your on line political posts, you would not have been invited. Actually, we know you're more qualified than most of us. There's no way we'd let a lawyer on the boat otherwise. Nightspark and I are, of course, also more qualified than most. There's no way anyone would let cops or T men on the boat otherwise either. Us Strokes are the elite of recreational divers and only associate with those who are similarly secure in their knowledge and skills, even when such confidence is not warranted. In addition to having low consumption, low being defined as whatever our consumption is, and perfect buoyancy control, that being defined as being able to get back to the surface at the end of the dive, and an infinite patience with those less perfect, except DMs that make bad coffee, we're handsome very, very handsome. Silent World may have been happy with whatever card you showed them, but they were quite nervous with my 1969 NAUI card that shows my certification level as "SCUBA." They didn't calm down until I relented and showed the SSI Master Diver card which, incidentally, does not say a word about the underlying specialties which even I've forgotten by now. They never did see a nitrox card, but they didn't fill my tanks any of the times I used them. The first and last times, I only did two dives. The time before last, they were out of O2 or something like that and I got a fill from Capt. Slate's, right next to the Silent World boat. Slate, by the way, banks nitrox, 30% I think, but don't hold me to it. So far, nobody has mentioned the fact that, of all the cards I have, exactly none of them has my picture on it. The NAUI card is paper, dating back to times before digital photography and cheap printers let everybody put a picture on everything. My SSI advanced card has no picture, nor does the Master Diver Card I got a year or so later. I didn't get cards for the qualifying courses, which is why I can't remember what they were. Oh yes, I have one of the most highly sought after, but seldom achieved, certifications in the industry. I am a certified Internet Diver. I have the certificate and everything, signed by el Stroko Guapo himself. Let's see the DIR guys trump that. Lee > In addition to having low consumption, low being defined as whatever our > consumption is, and perfect buoyancy control, that being defined as being > able to get back to the surface at the end of the dive, and an infinite > patience with those less perfect, except DMs that make bad coffee, we're > handsome very, very handsome. I would have settled for bad coffee on Silent World, but the DM was so lousy he couldn't even handle the drinking water obligations of the boat. > Silent World may have been happy with whatever card you showed them, but > they were quite nervous with my 1969 NAUI card that shows my certification [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Capt. Slate's, right next to the Silent World boat. Slate, by the way, > banks nitrox, 30% I think, but don't hold me to it. I must have a new and improved SSI Master Diver card, since it (and my SSI Advanced Open Water, which I lost in Cozumel) lists the specialties. Nitrox is one of them, so it works for that too. Unfortunately I've now misplaced that card, so I'm down to a single card that mentions nitrox, my SSI Specialty Diver card. When I lost Janna's Specialty Diver (nitrox) card, and boy was she pissed, we got two replacement cards from SSI that are full-fledged Nitrox cards and they're very pretty. Capt. Slate's certainly had a nicer set up down by the dock. But I'm going to hold off diving Key Largo again until I can find a dive op that can take me to a decent reef. Mike says that decent reefs do exist out there, but you probably have to charter the entire boat to get them to take you out. Maybe for DWG III? Otherwise, I'll head further south and give Jim Wyatt's successor, whats-her-name, a try. > So far, nobody has mentioned the fact that, of all the cards I have, > exactly none of them has my picture on it. The NAUI card is paper, dating > back to times before digital photography and cheap printers let everybody > put a picture on everything. My SSI advanced card has no picture, nor > does the Master Diver Card I got a year or so later. I didn't get cards > for the qualifying courses, which is why I can't remember what they were. That's what you get when you're certified before photography was invented. For Janna's replacements, we simply e-mailed SSI a .jpg. If you really want a picture card, they'll only charge you $25 or so and then you can be special like the rest of us. > Oh yes, I have one of the most highly sought after, but seldom achieved, > certifications in the industry. I am a certified Internet Diver. I have > the certificate and everything, signed by el Stroko Guapo himself. Let's > see the DIR guys trump that. JJ is supposed to be at the Scuba Show this weekend in Long Beach. I'll ask him about the upcoming I-DIR class and whether or not I can help write the waivers in exchange for a freebie. >> In addition to having low consumption, low being defined as whatever our >> consumption is, and perfect buoyancy control, that being defined as being [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I would have settled for bad coffee on Silent World, but the DM was so > lousy he couldn't even handle the drinking water obligations of the boat. Do Ric and his unusually hot wife Janet still own it, or can we start making cracks about Captain PADI now? <weg> They've been so good to us over the years, I swore to myself I'd wait. >> Silent World may have been happy with whatever card you showed them, but >> they were quite nervous with my 1969 NAUI card that shows my [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > ask him about the upcoming I-DIR class and whether or not I can help write > the waivers in exchange for a freebie. > Do Ric and his unusually hot wife Janet still own it, or can we start > making cracks about Captain PADI now? <weg> > > They've been so good to us over the years, I swore to myself I'd wait. I believe it's under new ownership. New management, at least. The boat was just a bare boat, with a small Igloo of drinking water their only amenity. They got us all there and back safely, with no "issues", but we were definitely rushed on the second dive. On the other hand, they now offer LP steel tank rentals in various sizes and nitrox fills with advanced notice, something I would have gladly taken advantage of to save us a FLL-Boynton roundtrip to return Splashdown's tanks before we flew out. All Ric had were Al80s when I reserved our seats on the boat. > All Ric had were Al80s when I reserved our seats on the > boat. So, you just take more of them with you... 2 on the back, one under each arm, and a couple on a deco line should do you... <evil-grin> > I believe it's under new ownership. New management, at least. The boat > was just a bare boat, with a small Igloo of drinking water their only > amenity. They got us all there and back safely, with no "issues", but we > were definitely rushed on the second dive. Notice how it didn't work out quite the way they planned? I don't know about you, but I was in no hurry to return to the surface to make up for the fact that they were late getting back from the morning trip. Lee >> I believe it's under new ownership. New management, at least. The boat >> was just a bare boat, with a small Igloo of drinking water their only [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > about you, but I was in no hurry to return to the surface to make up for > the fact that they were late getting back from the morning trip. We stayed nice and shallow at 90' on the second dive, sucking 36%. I came up with 1400 psi of wasted nitrox. > Do Ric and his unusually hot wife Janet still own it, or can we start > making cracks about Captain PADI now? <weg> I don't know if the sale is complete, but they weren't there when we visited. The new owner seems to speak DIR, which is quite a change from Ric and Janet. I don't recall Captain PADI mentioning PADI at all, but it may have been because I was not listening. As I recall, he was quite pleasant and pretty laid back, very different from the pre dive briefing we got on our earlier visit. Lee >> Do Ric and his unusually hot wife Janet still own it, or can we start >> making cracks about Captain PADI now? <weg> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > pretty laid back, very different from the pre dive briefing we got on our > earlier visit. I am -positive- you'll remember him firmly stating in the pre-dive that if you stayed in the water over an hour, or went into deco, or came back on the boat with less than 500 psi in your tank, or if you returned without your buddy, that it was, and I quote, a "P.A.D.I. -RULE-" that you must forfeit your second dive. He said it on both our trips, and I had images of you and Curtis tying him off behind the boat and dragging him back. If it wasn't for Ric and Janet, I would have had an extended field day with his a.s, captain or no. As it was, he seemed to understand we weren't tourists, and left us alone. He was sure glad we were there when that guy stroked. SignaturePopeye "If one does as God does enough times, one will become as God is." -Dr. Hannibal Lector. www.finalprotectivefire.com > I am -positive- you'll remember him firmly stating in the pre-dive that > if you stayed in the water over an hour, or went into deco, or came back > on the boat with less than 500 psi in your tank, or if you returned > without your buddy, that it was, and I quote, a "P.A.D.I. -RULE-" that you > must forfeit your second dive. You are quite correct. I remember him well. He was quite a bit different this time around. > He said it on both our trips, and I had images of you and Curtis tying > him off behind the boat and dragging him back. I found it quite amusing to listen to his canned speach, including the time and deco stuff with Curtis sitting in front of a set ot twins full of trimix and me sitting there with a deco bottle clearly marked with a mod of 70. I don't think Curtis or I really considered tying him or dragging him back behind the boat, but I don't think either of us considered abiding by his rules either. We made a point of not rubbing his nose in what we were going to do with or without his permission and he made a point of not noticing that we didn't comply with his PADI Rules. I don't know if you noticed, but when he asked for questions, the only one, which came from me, was "Who is this PADI guy you keep talking about?" His response kind of set the mood for me. He kind of shrugged and responded, "I'm required to say it." I can respect that, particularly when he didn't try to enforce any of the PADI rules when we so clearly violated them. > If it wasn't for Ric and Janet, I would have had an extended field day > with his a.s, captain or no. We could have had a good time at his expense, but, in my opinion, he didn't do anything that really warranted it. He has a job to do and he has to at least pay lip service to how he is told to do it. Frankly, as much as I like Ric and Janet, Ric's a bit of a Captain PADI too. Since he's the boss, however, he has the option of ignoring PADI rules when he feels comfortable with the divers abilities and sense of self responsibility. None of us would even consider trying to hold Ric responsible for our diving mistakes and he knew it. Janet, of course, is Janet. She's one of the nicest people I've met in the dive industry and, PADI or not, can expect nothing but compliments and courtesy from me. God help anyone who treats her differently while one of us is there. > As it was, he seemed to understand we weren't tourists, and left us > alone. > He was sure glad we were there when that guy stroked. You're damned right about that. He had good reason. If it weren't for you, we'd probably still be trying to get the victim out of the water. Well, maybe not. Curtis was behind you and he could have done it too. Nobody else on the boat could have gotten him out of the water as quickly and effectively. I think he was even more happy to have a group of experienced divers duplicate his advice regarding first aid during the trip back to shore. He, and the agency, were at risk for anything the victim and those that accompanied him had to say . . . except there were more of us than there were of them and we made the fact that we agreed with him and not them abundantly clear, both during the trip and in the forms we completed relative to the incident. It was nice of Ric to offer us a free afternoon trip, but I wish I had declined. I would much rather have spent the time with you and others than diving on a poor, mostly dead reef so shallow I'd have had to dig a hole to get to 20 feet and a somewhat better, but still very shallow reef. At any rate, I think he did better for Dive with Greg II, but like I said, I didn't pay a lot of attention. Someone else will have to confirm. Lee > >> Do Ric and his unusually hot wife Janet still own it, or can we start > >> making cracks about Captain PADI now? <weg> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > buddy, that it was, and I quote, a "P.A.D.I. -RULE-" that you must forfeit > your second dive. I'd be in a pickle then, if I wasn't to come back without my buddy, since I'd probably be doing a dive of over an hour and my buddy would have been back on the boat long before and without me. Guess I might have a shot at the second dive but my buddy would have to do without. Um, that is assuming I went into the water with a buddy in the first place. > He said it on both our trips, and I had images of you and Curtis tying him > off behind the boat and dragging him back. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > He was sure glad we were there when that guy stroked. > Capt. Slate's certainly had a nicer set up down by the dock. But I'm > going to hold off diving Key Largo again until I can find a dive op that > can take me to a decent reef. Mike says that decent reefs do exist out > there, but you probably have to charter the entire boat to get them to > take you out. Maybe for DWG III? Otherwise, I'll head further south and > give Jim Wyatt's successor, whats-her-name, a try. Rachel Chaimson, rachel@wreckreationcharters.com > JJ is supposed to be at the Scuba Show this weekend in Long Beach. I'll > ask him about the upcoming I-DIR class and whether or not I can help write > the waivers in exchange for a freebie. When he stops laughing, let us know what he said. JJ's not real well known for his generosity outside of the WKPP team. Lee > Silent World doesn't count. They knew who every one of us was before we > arrived, at least Ric did. Is the Grove an advanced dive? Not in my opinion... Even at the sand, it's not that deep and there is hard bottom to prevent you from going any further without a shovel... The hardest part is the drive down to Key Largo... Even if you don't take US-1 the entire way... <grin> >> And what boats are these, pray tell? I had heard that the only boats that >> cared about an "Advanced" certification were a few in Florida for the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >I've run into a few of them in the Bahamas as well as in various parts of >south Florida. On their adventure Fridays, Dive Makai will only take out advanced divers. When we went out with them, it was two deep dives and a shallow (60 feet deep) cavern penetration. >Silent World doesn't count. They knew who every one of us was before we >arrived, at least Ric did. Is the Grove an advanced dive? > >Lee > Signaturedillon JAFO > On their adventure Fridays, Dive Makai will only take out advanced > divers. When we went out with them, it was two deep dives and a > shallow (60 feet deep) cavern penetration. I know that many Maui dive ops require a minimum number of dives (24 or 25) and recent dive experience in order to dive the back wall, but they don't require any particular sort of certification. I'll have to try Dive Makai next time we're on the island. Jack's was a bit too commercial for my taste. The new owner of Dive Makai got a biology undergraduate degree from the same school where I got my biology degree around the same time, and went to law school at the crosstown rival of my law school, so we seem to have a few things in common. >I've been looking at the LA scuba Advanced Diver Program >http://www.lascuba.com/adp.html [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >Thanks, >Shawn Sounds like fun Shawn. Wow 14 dives for $450. Looks like you and your wife could meet other folks with different diving interests too. Have fun. That's what counts. Also, probably some good reinforcement for your initial training. >I've been looking at the LA scuba Advanced Diver Program >http://www.lascuba.com/adp.html [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >Thanks, >Shawn Shawn, you're at the point at which experience counts more than the additional training. Get some dives under your belt, enjoy it a little. Then go back and do what has a rep as a good course. I always tell my OW students to go dive within their training and then come back for AOW. In truth, it'll save money for those who suddenly realize that diving isn't the hobby they thought it might be. Ten weekends is a tremendous committment of time. You could do 20 dives on your own and develop a lot more confidence in your ability. Signaturedillon JAFO > I've been looking at the LA scuba Advanced Diver Program > http://www.lascuba.com/adp.html [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > last weekend NAUI open water and we're looking for the next steps (in > training). Thanks for all your feedback, everyone. We've decided to enroll to the program and use the 14 dives as another chance to be with an instructor. My wife feels more comfortable that way and since its her first time diving, I happen to agree. This particular program is next to impossible to find good information about or examples of other people who've attended but the instructors seem okay. We'll see how it goes. Thanks, Shawn > Thanks for all your feedback, everyone. We've decided to enroll to the > program and use the 14 dives as another chance to be with an instructor. My > wife feels more comfortable that way and since its her first time diving, I > happen to agree. Damn, she's got you trained pretty good... How long your been married? > Damn, she's got you trained pretty good... How long your been married? I learned, back when we were engaged, that the secret to a happy relationship/marriage is to keep the woman happy. She ain't happy, I certainly won't be happy. We are going on our 4th year soon. Thanks, Shawn > > Damn, she's got you trained pretty good... How long your been married? > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Thanks, > Shawn My husband would have told you the same thing and we're approaching 29. He loves me enough to tag along on a dive today although he is on a medical leave from diving for the next several weeks. He even made food and was nice to my friends, when he wasn't whining about not being able to dive. * > We are going on our 4th year soon. So, only 3 years and she's got you trained that well... Damn, her mother would be proud of her... >> Thanks for all your feedback, everyone. We've decided to enroll to the >> program and use the 14 dives as another chance to be with an instructor. My >> wife feels more comfortable that way and since its her first time diving, I >> happen to agree. > >Damn, she's got you trained pretty good... How long your been married? Ooooooo.......How long you been divorced? <BG> >> I've been looking at the LA scuba Advanced Diver Program >> http://www.lascuba.com/adp.html [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >Thanks, >Shawn Good for you Shawn. Now have fun. Wayne > Thanks for all your feedback, everyone. Which you decided to ignore. > We've decided to enroll to the program and use the 14 dives as another > chance to be with an instructor. My wife feels more comfortable that way > and since its her first time diving, I happen to agree. This particular > program is next to impossible to find good information about or examples > of other people who've attended but the instructors seem okay. We'll see > how it goes. Great. Another 18-dive Master Diver. I'm surprised that they even accept people fresh out of open water. So much for my expectation of higher standards. > Great. Another 18-dive Master Diver. > > I'm surprised that they even accept people fresh out of open water. So much > for my expectation of higher standards. Well, anyone with more experience probably wouldn't be stupid enough to pay that kind of money to be 'master' <snicker> diver... >> Thanks for all your feedback, everyone. > > Which you decided to ignore. I didn't happen to ignore it, I just wanted to see various opinions on the program, not whether they felt whether I should enroll into a program or not. In any case, doing more dives before more training is sound, but quite a bit of thought and planning and contemplating (whether to do it or not) went into this. In the end, we agreed not to but then she decided she wanted to for various reasons and we talked more and figured that its what we want to do. I won't regret the decision (unless the instruction is 3rd class). >> We've decided to enroll to the program and use the 14 dives as another >> chance to be with an instructor. My wife feels more comfortable that way [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Great. Another 18-dive Master Diver. We aren't looking to be a "Master Diver" as you put it, you make it sound so synical and like we're trying to be something we're not. Actually, many of the classes: the U/W navigation, night, and underwater naturalist are actually of particular interest to us. So are the others, the fact they do lake diving, too. Perhaps means nothing to you, but they are putting into one setting most of the other things we want to do and what better way to do it than to just "do it" and then take it from there. I don't think we can even dare to consider ourselves "Master Divers" just because we did a few dives and got a NAUI card. But we will be better divers, have learned a lot, and won't have to take the classes later when our master degrees homework for the next 2-3 years burdens us. > I'm surprised that they even accept people fresh out of open water. So > much for my expectation of higher standards. In all the places we looked, having an OW cert card was all that was needed. Most wanted PADI but when I showed NAUI they make a deal out of it like its some sort of higher power or something. In any case, I don't think many instruction schools have these "higher" standards you dream of. At least we're honest enough with ourselves to understand that we aren't master divers, just learning more about the thing we like to do. Quite frankly, I don't see what the problem is with that. Thanks, Shawn > >> Thanks for all your feedback, everyone. > > [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > Thanks, > Shawn There isn't a problem with learning. Always learn; after 1000+ dives, I learn something new on every dive. And lotsa people here have more dives than that. Once you have this series of classes completed (or even DURING this time!) you need to go diving. Just the 2 of you; no instructor. Go to a site you know and just swim to the places you already know. Oh, and NAUI *is* a higher power as compared to PADI (ducking). Oh, and did you mention where in the country you are located, if you don't mind saying? > Oh, and NAUI *is* a higher power as compared to PADI (ducking). I don't know if that is a joke or not but places I enquire about seems to treat it such. I don't understand. It's just training. What's the diference? > Oh, and did you mention where in the country you are located, if you > don't mind saying? I'm in So. California, near Laguna Beach. Thanks, Shawn > > Oh, and NAUI *is* a higher power as compared to PADI (ducking). > > I don't know if that is a joke or not but places I enquire about seems to > treat it such. I don't understand. It's just training. What's the > diference? The instructor makes all the difference. At the OW level, there is not much difference in standards, but depending on the instructor, it CAN be a big difference. PADI for example permits the training of kids as young as 10. NAUI and YMCA won't train kids til they are 12; I won't train them til they are 15-16. YMCA had the first, and still the most stringent list of skills. After teaching this OW course, which requires a great deal of time in the pool just learning how to be in the water with your gear, i find my students are well prepared for OW and doing some diving. The NAUI program was taken almost directly from the YMCA, but has been watered down a bit. NAUI, however, gives me academic freedom to expect a bit more from my students, so I can teach these skills with NAUI as well. The instructor plays a huge role in teaching a skill as a skill and not a one-time performance. Mask clearing, for example. I've had students in a nitrox, AOW, and god forbid in tech classes who had done a mask removal and replacement exactly once, with assistance. That's not a skill. Something becomes a skill when you can perform it with skill repeatedly. It's your instructors job to see that you can do so. NAUI has, as a final criteria for issuing a c-card, a question to the instructor: Would you be willing to let a loved one dive with this student? I've answered no to that question more than once. Sometimes the student hangs around and works harder; sometimes not. Training is purchased; certification is earned. > > Oh, and did you mention where in the country you are located, if you > > don't mind saying? > > I'm in So. California, near Laguna Beach. Ah - I'm a bit farther north, Puget Sound, or I'd dive with you two. Good luck. * > Thanks, > Shawn > The instructor plays a huge role in teaching a skill as a skill and not > a one-time performance. Mask clearing, for example. I've had students > in a nitrox, AOW, and god forbid in tech classes who had done a mask > removal and replacement exactly once, with assistance. That's not a > skill. Something becomes a skill when you can perform it with skill > repeatedly. It's your instructors job to see that you can do so. That's a joke. We had to do mask clearing and full removable more times than I can count... in the pool, in the ocean, whenever and wherever the instructor deemed fit. All kinds of regulator excercises and at times, in the pool and in the water. Then, when 20 classes were in the area doing a dive and everyone kicks you in your face, we had no problems getting our masks back but watching other classes down there, they didn't even know what to do once the mask came off. Or a regulator gets knocked out of one of the other classes students mouth, the didn't know what to do. That happens to one in our class, its hardly a setback. He even screwed with our gear underwater and made sure we were calm enough and collected enough to set things straight. Lots of buddy breathing and some rescue and navigation. Even when most of the people were performing, if one person didn't get things right, the whole classes couldn't do the dive. > NAUI has, as a final criteria for issuing a c-card, a question to the > instructor: Would you be willing to let a loved one dive with this > student? My wife does really well. I'm especially alert of her well-being but we make a good diving team. There were other couples in there, also. The instructor paid close attention to how couples interact and buddy each other. If my attention slipped for even a moment (or hers) he would be quick to set it straight. Perhaps he has to answer the same question? Our instructors don't take jack crap from anyone; you either learn or you don't and if you don't perform up to their standards (they have NAUI and PADI instructor numbers that are in the low 4 digits) then you simply don't pass. They were also particular about surf entry... entering the Laguna surf isn't the same as the book teaches. We watched class after class do it by the book and many classes (including their instructor) never made it into the water or had to be rescued. Then, our class (or others trained by the same people) had no problems whatsoever. The value of good instruction is priceless, but I still don't know how to screen for a good instructor. Thanks, Shawn > That's a joke. If it is, it's not a funny one. From your comments, you had a good course and a good instructor. The harassment, or confidence drills, as they tend to be called these days, are an add on that many of us who have been diving for a long time had to go through. They've become quite uncommon these days. Most of us that made it through them, think they were a very good idea. Your comments also suggest you've seen, as we all have, those who's agency did not adequately promote good training and whose instructors did not provide it. Different people have different opinions on the agencies. Mine is that PADI, at he corporate level, is the worst of the bunch. They're far more interested in volume and revenues than in safety and quality training. All of the agencies now offer somewhat watered down training in order to compete with the leader in watered down training, PADI. > Lots of buddy breathing . . . Buddy breathing or gas sharing? There's a difference to many of us. Buddy breathing, as I use the term, means shaing a single second stage, passing it back and forth between more than one diver. Gas sharing usually means handing someone your alternate. If your course included buddy breathing, which I think all courses should, then you really did get good trainning and really should thank your instructor both personally and by recommending him/her. > My wife does really well. I'm especially alert of her well-being but we > make a good diving team. There were other couples in there, also. The > instructor paid close attention to how couples interact and buddy each > other. If my attention slipped for even a moment (or hers) he would be > quick to set it straight. Perhaps he has to answer the same question? Be careful in your diving relationship. It's quite easy for us macho types, may not include you, but it certainly does include me, to look after the little woman in all things. It's a nice sentiment, but it's not beneficial where safety issues are involved. Woman, as Star will certainly confirm, have the same need to be self reliant as men, perhaps more since they often have to dive with men. > Our instructors don't take jack crap from anyone; you either learn or you > don't and if you don't perform up to their standards (they have NAUI and > PADI instructor numbers that are in the low 4 digits) then you simply > don't pass. That's the biggest difference in agencies and instructors. PADI is set up to ensure that everyone passes. Other agencies tend to be the same, but not to the same degree. Some instructors make up for that by ensuring their students are competent before they get a card, others don't. > They were also particular about surf entry... entering the Laguna surf > isn't the same as the book teaches. We watched class after class do it by > the book and many classes (including their instructor) never made it into > the water or had to be rescued. Then, our class (or others trained by the > same people) had no problems whatsoever. Scary, isn't it? Those people that had to be rescued probably have cards today. Like Star said, would you want your spouse diving with one of them? > The value of good instruction is priceless, but I still don't know how to > screen for a good instructor. Sure you do. You described one in your post. Look for another just like him/her . . . or go back and get more training from the same one. Lee > > That's a joke. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > days. Most of us that made it through them, think they were a very good > idea. Other than turning off a student's air UW, which is no longer permitted in OW training for insurance reasons, YMCA has not eliminated "confidence drills." I understand the shutoff thing: Attorney to instructor: Please tell us what you did right before your client drowned? Instructor" First I shut off his air..... > Your comments also suggest you've seen, as we all have, those who's agency > did not adequately promote good training and whose instructors did not [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > All of the agencies now offer somewhat watered down training in order to > compete with the leader in watered down training, PADI. One can interpret volumes about society today by people's choices in OW training. They will happily choose the weekend course for $99 over the more involved and expensive course offering several pool sessions and 5-6 OW dives with the promise of more "fun" dives with the instructor and club/shop. Yet this same person will seek the most reputable tennis instructor no matter what the cost. And which sport is it, again, that can kill you? Hello!! > > Lots of buddy breathing . . . > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > really should thank your instructor both personally and by recommending > him/her. It's a skill-builder that should NEVER have to be actuallly used IRL, but its a really important confidence builder. I teach it as such. > > My wife does really well. I'm especially alert of her well-being but we > > make a good diving team. There were other couples in there, also. The [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > have the same need to be self reliant as men, perhaps more since they often > have to dive with men. I was in the more interesting situation of having dove for years and at the DM level when my husband decided to be certified. From the beginning he knew I was self-reliant, which sometimes worked the other way for a while as he figured he didn't need to use his buddy skills when he dove with me. We worked it out though, and were able to remain happily marrried :-) In training couples or family pairs, I usually start them out with a buddy other than their spouse or SO. They can learn on their own, and then get back together on a more "equal" basis. Most are amenible to this approach once it's explained. In fact, they usually like it. and they have a good understanding of self-reliancy in a buddy relationship. > > Our instructors don't take jack crap from anyone; you either learn or you > > don't and if you don't perform up to their standards (they have NAUI and > > PADI instructor numbers that are in the low 4 digits) then you simply > > don't pass. I would hope that their attitude is not simply a military approach, but one of working with a student until the appropriate level of mastery and competence is reached. Sometimes, a student just needs some time and practice until he feels comfortable with a skill; hence the advantage of many pool sessions rather than a weekend course. > That's the biggest difference in agencies and instructors. PADI is set up > to ensure that everyone passes. Other agencies tend to be the same, but not [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > Sure you do. You described one in your post. Look for another just like > him/her . . . or go back and get more training from the same one. Shawn, you've already established in yourself an important attitude in becoming a good diver: demanding competency of yourself and those around you. Complacency is a killer, as I'm sure you have figured out. Realize that in time as you dive more and more (so go DIVING!) you'll temper your vocalization of that attitude and learn to ask your instructors and mentors the right questions and will learn how to ask the right questionos from the right people. In other words, don't become a PITA to those trying to help you by thinking you know more than they do. It's not a big deal here, but it is IRL. Here, you can pretty much say anything and the worst you'll get is a keyboard-lshing :-) How is your wife doing with her training? What are her goals in diving? Expect that you will have some individual interests and respect those. When she's ready, send her off diving with people other than you. And you go diving with others as well. Diving isn't like marriage vows with respect to faithfulness; diving with others will truly make you both better divers and better dive partners for one another. Enjoy your course, let us know how it goes, and did I mention that you need to GO DIVING?? * > Other than turning off a student's air UW, which is no longer permitted > in OW training for insurance reasons, YMCA has not eliminated > "confidence drills." I understand the shutoff thing: > Attorney to instructor: Please tell us what you did right before your > client drowned? > Instructor" First I shut off his air..... Attorneys and I don't often agree on what is right and wrong. Just look at all the disagreements Greg and I have had over the years which, by the way, don't mean we like one another any more or less than would otherwise be the case. Personally, I found having my air shut off to be one of the more useful elements of the confidence drills I was put through. While it's not very likely that my air would be shut off during a normal dive, it did teach me to turn it on without a lot of stress, the one or two times (a decade) that I've jumped in without turning it on in the first place. > It's a skill-builder that should NEVER have to be actuallly used IRL, > but its a really important confidence builder. I teach it as such. We already knew you are a good instructor. Your fame preceeds your recent postings. No, I won't tell who told on you. > I was in the more interesting situation of having dove for years and at > the DM level when my husband decided to be certified. From the > beginning he knew I was self-reliant, which sometimes worked the other > way for a while as he figured he didn't need to use his buddy skills > when he dove with me. We worked it out though, and were able to remain > happily marrried :-) Our situation was just the opposite. I have been diving for almost 30 years when I met my wife. She got certified the year we got married. I don't want to suggest that I'm overly protective, because I really try not to be. Nevertheless, there was a faint shadow above her when she did her checkout dives . . . me. She got paired with the turkey that bolted for the surface in the swimming pool sessions. You may be very sure he was not going to do that at 30 feet or more with my wife in tow. To his credit, or perhaps hers, he had no significant problems during the checkout dive. > In training couples or family pairs, I usually start them out with a > buddy other than their spouse or SO. They can learn on their own, and > then get back together on a more "equal" basis. Most are amenible to > this approach once it's explained. In fact, they usually like it. and > they have a good understanding of self-reliancy in a buddy > relationship. I paid for my wife to learn to now ski, despite the fact that I was once a competitive water skiier. I paid for my wife to learn how to snow ski, despite the fact that I was once an advanced snow skiier and have a NASTAR bronze medal to prove it. I paid for my wife to learn how to dive, despite the fact that I had been diving for 30 years when she learned. I learned a long time ago that a close relationship with a student can change the instructors expectations and patience. It's almost always better to let a good, independent, professional instructor handle the task. I taught my wife to drive a stick shift car (we weren't married at the time) only because she had just bought one and needed to drive it to work the next day. I got lucky, succeeding without shouting, being shouted at, or being shot. Lee > > Other than turning off a student's air UW, which is no longer permitted > > in OW training for insurance reasons, YMCA has not eliminated [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > to turn it on without a lot of stress, the one or two times (a decade) that > I've jumped in without turning it on in the first place. Agreed. But it's the law, for me, at this point. In OW anyways. AOW, Master diver, leadership training - its fair game and I do it. When jumping in and then learning air is off, just pretend you're practicing a shutdown. Works for me :-) > > It's a skill-builder that should NEVER have to be actuallly used IRL, > > but its a really important confidence builder. I teach it as such. > > We already knew you are a good instructor. Your fame preceeds your recent > postings. No, I won't tell who told on you. Be that way, then :-P > Our situation was just the opposite. I have been diving for almost 30 years > when I met my wife. She got certified the year we got married. I don't [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > that at 30 feet or more with my wife in tow. To his credit, or perhaps > hers, he had no significant problems during the checkout dive. You were just being a good buddy. No interference there. > > In training couples or family pairs, I usually start them out with a > > buddy other than their spouse or SO. They can learn on their own, and [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > bronze medal to prove it. I paid for my wife to learn how to dive, despite > the fact that I had been diving for 30 years when she learned. Someone else trained my husband, other than DM. > I taught my wife to drive a stick shift car (we weren't married at the time) > only because she had just bought one and needed to drive it to work the next > day. I got lucky, succeeding without shouting, being shouted at, or being > shot. We hung wallpaper together and did not need to call a laywer :-) * > Agreed. But it's the law, for me, at this point. In OW anyways. AOW, > Master diver, leadership training - its fair game and I do it. Understood. > When jumping in and then learning air is off, just pretend you're > practicing a shutdown. Works for me :-) Us single tank divers don't do many shut downs. 8^) >> We already knew you are a good instructor. Your fame preceeds your >> recent >> postings. No, I won't tell who told on you. > Be that way, then :-P OK, I will be. 8^) > You were just being a good buddy. No interference there. I suppose, but I'm not sure her instructor would agree. Back then, I was still diving with a hard rubber plate and single hose regulator. No buoyancy device and no octopus alternate. The wouldn't let me on the boat. No problem, I took my own boat. Until you've tried, you have no idea how hard it can be to unhook and retrieve an anchor and drive the boat at the same time. I had a plan. It failed. The seas were a bit choppy. I fed the fish three times before I gave up, put my gear back on and went down and retreived my anchor by hand. It had slipped into a hole in the hard pan bottom and would never have come out if I had not gone to get it. >> I taught my wife to drive a stick shift car (we weren't married at the >> time) [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> being >> shot. > We hung wallpaper together and did not need to call a laywer :-) Send it to Ripley's. That's definite "believe it or not" territory. Lee <snip> >>Buddy breathing or gas sharing? There's a difference to many of us. Buddy >>breathing, as I use the term, means shaing a single second stage, passing it [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > It's a skill-builder that should NEVER have to be actuallly used IRL, > but its a really important confidence builder. I teach it as such. <snip> This is not a basic OW question (which was probably the context of your response). But suppose you had a catastrophic deco reg failure. Would you want to be able to buddy breathe with someone having the same deco mix? This is not an academic question. This happened to someone else when I dove last. Few deco regs I've seen have octos. (Certainly mine does not.) Oh, by the way, it's simply amazing how many bubbles happen at the surface when a first stage HP O-ring lets go. Looked like the sea was boiling... Now, lost deco gas planning should cover this eventuality from a safety standpoint, but I'm talking about convenience and safety margin here, not survival or razor-thin DCS avoidance. I think I would want to share gas in this case, assuming adequate supply, in either direction. John Eells > This is not a basic OW question (which was probably the context of your > response). > But suppose you had a catastrophic deco reg failure. Would you want to be > able to buddy breathe with someone having the same deco mix? This is not > an academic question. This happened to someone else when I dove last. > Few deco regs I've seen have octos. (Certainly mine does not.) Oh, by the > way, it's simply amazing how many bubbles happen at the surface when a > first stage HP O-ring lets go. Looked like the sea was boiling... > Now, lost deco gas planning should cover this eventuality from a safety > standpoint, but I'm talking about convenience and safety margin here, not > survival or razor-thin DCS avoidance. I was under the impression that the right way to do things is for each diver to have sufficient gas for his needs and for his buddy's needs. If I'm correct, the ability to buddy breathe is inherent in the process. I seriously doubt that there is a diver competent to do this kind of deco diving, that is not also competent to buddy breathe, even those that have never had occasion to do it, even in practice. As Scott commented, it's not rocket surgery, or was that brain science? I forget. I'm glad you mentioned this, though. I've been having trouble telling the folks in the UK, where deco is much more common than it is here, why they should teach buddy breathing and you just provided a good reason. Lee > <snip> > >>Buddy breathing or gas sharing? There's a difference to many of us. Buddy [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > John Eells John, you are correct in that we were discussing this as a recreational diving skill. As for losing a deco gas, I *always* have enough backgas for a (very long) deco and a backup schedule as well. (Recall that you plan to carry enough of ALL gases for both you and your partner.) If I were to share a deco gas, it would be on the backup backgas deco schedule, each diver having the deco gas (taking care that to observe the MOD so as not to share too hot of a gas) for 3-5 minutes then handing it back. Even a skilled buddy-breathe could, depending on other conditions and which stop you were at, seriously mess up BOTH divers as the jostling and effort will most certainly interfere with a clean deco. Another possible plan would be to hand off the deco bottle to the OOG diver, let that diver use it until done while remaining on your backgas, then go to a backup deco schedule. OR, the OOG diver can complete his deco, hand you back the bottle, then surface and send a clean safety diver down with a fresh bottle for you. As in recreational diving, buddy-breathing as in take-3-breaths-and-pass-and-exhale would probably be my last choice with a lost deco gas. * Luann Lee "PornStar" <lclee1@gmail.com> rista: > John, you are correct in that we were discussing this as a > recreational diving skill. Yet the r.s. regular fuckwits demand a professional skill level from anyone posting. >> > That's a joke. >> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > >Instructor" First I shut off his air..... Rops, my instructor for the buddy breaths made sure everone on the class knew how to share air with a single reg, not just share gas. and during the swim around after skills practice when we got some bottom time in after learnign he'd buzz around the pairs and do harrassment stuff like swim past and pull the mask off, or grab a foot and rip off the fin. I even had him turn my air off, so it does happen, had to share air while my buddy turned it back on. > Be careful in your diving relationship. It's quite easy for us macho > types, may not include you, but it certainly does include me, to look > after the little woman in all things. It's a nice sentiment, but it's not > beneficial where safety issues are involved. Woman, as Star will > certainly confirm, have the same need to be self reliant as men, perhaps > more since they often have to dive with men. Yeah, I understand. Actually, in the beginning we were paired with other buddies but as comfort sunk in they paired us with our spouse. Also, there was plenty of pool excercises making sure we were ready for the ocean before the fact. Tons of buddy breathing and octo breathing. I actually got an octo from a buddy where it took in more water than air. Hated it at first, but then I saw it as a personal oppurtunity figure out what to do if that were 60 feet under??? I stuck my tongue in the whole and it worked. My instructor said that's exactly what I should have done and... went and got another octo that worked properly afterwords. After that experience (and my terrible cough from breathing water)... ... the rest of the class thereafter "instinctively" check their regulators by breathing a breath (under water once in the water) and testing their octo the same way, before decending into the ocean/pool. Our instructure didn't have to give us a lesson in that one but, in addition to the very strict assemble/dissemble gear drill, er, excercises we did, and checking everything that can be checked, this became just another one of the things to do. Sure, we were trained to do it before jumping in the water, but how do you know if it will take in water excessively until your in the water and try it? Anyway, basic stuff. But all instructors were so extremely safety and proficiency conscious that, aggrevating at first, now its just the way I learned and I won't want to visit any instructor that doesn't care at least as much. Most of the females required so much attention that its insane. The instructors were very patient and after a while, the females (my wife included) exceeded the proficiency of the males and even, sort of, set examples for the men to catch up with. The instructors were thoroughly impressed that, with a very very very slow start, in the end, they did absolutely spectacular. I say thought somewhat jokingly, there's nothing wrong with men/women in general, just just how the class turned out. We all learned, we all got our fair share of attention, we all had our struggles, and we all were taught strictly to survey and learn about local conditions, laws, surf entry, emergency phones/procedures/locations... etc. before doing a dive. We all were taught how to plan a dive with our buddy and plan for emergencies, what to do, how to change plans if something goes wrong, etc. We also learned to go to the various Laguna Coves and watch other classes occasionally to get an idea about how other classes are trained. What we observed was pretty scary. The most important programming we recieved is that we are responsible for our own gear/safety and that no one else is. Pretty obvious, huh? His favorite line was "there's no homocide in SCUBA, only suicide.". That about hits it home for me. I approach every dive the same way. I'm responsible for my own safety. My wife for hers, and we can never take buddy check for granted. Thanks, Shawn <SNIP> > Most of the females required so much attention that its insane. *SIts firmly on hands steam pouring from ears.....* >The > instructors were very patient Were any of them women? > and after a while, the females (my wife > included) She's already kicking your backside UW with her trim, streamlining and SAC, if not other things as well. Get used to it. exceeded the proficiency of the males and even, sort of, set > examples for the men to catch up with. .... and will continue to do so, should they so choose. * > She's already kicking your backside UW with her trim, streamlining and > SAC, if not other things as well. Get used to it. Grace was relating a story about some individuals who appeared to be targeting Asians -- following them home and robbing them... In response, I pointed out an article on the Houston Chronicle's website today concerning a case where a young woman's SUV was run off the road and she was raped, stabbed, and left for dead... http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/headline/metro/4014662.html Grace's response was, "Yeah, men are just animals".. My response to her was, "Yeah, but if civilization had been left to women, we would still be arguing about the color of the first bear skin run in the first fuckin' cave"... Her response, "Pink, of course"... My response, "Yeah, right, now you're gonna have us go all the fuckin' way up to the Artic just to kill a fuckin' polar bear"... Summary: We're two entirely different species that somehow manage to interbreed... <snip> > Summary: We're two entirely different species that somehow manage to > interbreed... It's only because the process is so much fun. :-) >> She's already kicking your backside UW with her trim, streamlining and >> SAC, if not other things as well. Get used to it. [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >Summary: We're two entirely different species that somehow manage to >interbreed... The old title, "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus" is not true. "Men are from Earth, Women are from Earth, Get used to it" is much more applicable. Rick Simms ******************** Nature abhors a vacuum, but not as much as a cat does. Nelson Crawford <snip> > She's already kicking your backside UW with her trim, streamlining and > SAC, if not other things as well. Get used to it. Isn't it more difficult to be more streamlined when you have... ummm... funbags? ;-) > Isn't it more difficult to be more streamlined when you have... ummm... > funbags? For some women moreso than others, of course... <dirty-old-man-grin> |
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