Scuba Forum / General / June 2006
Visit to the local dive store - A new mail order customer is born
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chris23579@yahoo.com - 11 Jun 2006 23:34 GMT One always thinks that one should support the local dive stores, because in times of need Leisure Pro is not going to fill your tanks over the internet, etc. After ten years of diving and buying stuff, and a recent encounter of the strange kind at my local dive store, I am leaning heavily towards mail order. Here is the tale of my most significant experiences:
The strange encounter happened when I stepped into Ocean Adventures on Lincoln (LA, where I live now) and asked what I needed to make the DIN valve of my regulator fit into the din valve of a tank I bought on Ebay. Turns out the Ebay find is a 300 bar tank, but in addition to that information I got the whole wrath the dive store owner has for Leisure Pro etc., when he asked me where I had bought the regulator: Upon hearing New York, he went into a little fit: "Leisure Pro? That's what happens when you buy from them, non-fitting,... blablabla, ... can't help you with that, ... blabla,.. ", etc., etc., you know the song. He didn't seem to want to go back to normal conversation mode, to either hear that Leisure Pro was my local dive store when I lived there (with a much larger selection and better service than his, btw.), nor that they hadn't sold me that combo, but that the tank came from Ebay years later, and that I was trying to by whatever part was needed from him. So I stepped out.
The second worst experience with a dive store was a guy who serviced my regulator, but never 'got around' to give me the paperwork for the work done. I kept calling and sending faxes until I lost interest, because the next service was due. That was the store in Germany where I had bought fins at a $50 above internet to support my local dive store, and air and small stuff. Turns out that he mailed the regulator to a service center, anyway, hence his disinterest in chasing down the lost papers.
The only bad experience with mail order was Paulis Tauchshop in Germany (http://www.paulis-tauchshop.de/), who didn't refund a return for about a year. But this money was recovered without cost or much effort to me through a lawyer, whom Paul paid for.
One really good mail order experience was another German store whose name I forgot, who gave me the sales price for an item that I had ordered even though it went on sale only a few days after I had ordered.
The dreaded Leisure Pro turned out to be a small store cramped to the ceiling with interesting diving stuff at great prices, a pleasure to browse and buy. I didn't find the lack of constant PADI indoctrination a shortcoming.
A completely different animal not to be confused with stores are dive operators; I had mixed experiences with these. Interestingly enough the bad ones were with operators in the united states, the really good ones in remote parts of Europe, and Asia and Africa.
So after ten years of random sampling, the score:
Local dive stores: 2 really bad experiences (-2), generally high price level (-1), local service and fast availability of small parts (+1): negative two points
Mail order: One annoying experience (Pauli) (-1), one positive experience (+1), good prices and huge selection (+1): positive one
So for me the internet comes out three points ahead. My dive store may go the way of the dinosaur and the horse carriage, I will get pure air without attitude at the Sports Chalet down the road or from a vending machine at the dive site, my equipment through the UPS truck, and my trips from able operators.
I would be interested in hearing other peoples experiences. Is this unique, or the rule?
Ray - 12 Jun 2006 00:21 GMT > <snip> My dive store may > go the way of the dinosaur and the horse carriage, I will get pure air > without attitude at the Sports Chalet down the road or from a vending > machine at the dive site, my equipment through the UPS truck, and my > trips from able operators. Owing to the fact that diving is a hobby turned business for many of the "shops" out there, the level of professionalism is severely lacking in lots of shops. However, there are just as many "stores" that offer good advice, service and pricing ... at least in my opinion. From the paragraph that I left of your post, it appears that you are happy with one of the stores in your area ... Sport Chalet! A lot of their surrounding dive shops complain about THEM as their prices are almost as low as mail order. Why not call them your LDS?
By the way, I am very interested in finding out where there are dive sites with air vending machines! This is the first that I have heard of it. Where would one go to find such a beast?
Just my $.02
 Signature Ray Contreras =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Webmonkey for: http://www.ossystems.com http://www.bobs-garage.com http://www.clanwolverine.org http://www.rayzplace.com
Barry - 12 Jun 2006 13:11 GMT >> <snip> My dive store may >> go the way of the dinosaur and the horse carriage, I will get pure air [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > sites with air vending machines! This is the first that I have heard of > it. Where would one go to find such a beast? These are fairly common in The Netherlands at least. Just coin-op filling machines giving about 50 bar for 50 eurocents. Very handy as they are open 24/7 and much cheaper if you still have over half a tank and just need a top-off.
> Just my $.02 Ray - 12 Jun 2006 15:24 GMT > These are fairly common in The Netherlands at least. Just coin-op > filling machines giving about 50 bar for 50 eurocents. Very handy as > they are open 24/7 and much cheaper if you still have over half a tank > and just need a top-off. Now THAT is very cool! Are these at the dive site run by the city or a dive store nearby?
Ray Contreras =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Webmonkey for: http://www.ossystems.com http://www.bobs-garage.com http://www.clanwolverine.org http://www.rayzplace.com
Popeye - 12 Jun 2006 16:46 GMT >> These are fairly common in The Netherlands at least. Just coin-op filling >> machines giving about 50 bar for 50 eurocents. Very handy as they are [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Now THAT is very cool! Are these at the dive site run by the city or a > dive store nearby? Ray, FYI, I heard there's air vending in Florida somewhere.
It ain't new in Europe.
> Ray Contreras > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > http://www.clanwolverine.org > http://www.rayzplace.com Ray - 12 Jun 2006 18:04 GMT > Ray, FYI, I heard there's air vending in Florida somewhere. > > It ain't new in Europe. That is actually great news as long as it is successful. I see it as a step towards making the individual diver take a little more responsibility upon his/her shoulders. A small step ... but a step all the same.
 Signature Ray Contreras =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Webmonkey for: http://www.ossystems.com http://www.bobs-garage.com http://www.clanwolverine.org http://www.rayzplace.com
ajtessier - 13 Jun 2006 01:20 GMT How does the vending machine check a tank for hydo and visual?
Al Bottoms Up Divers
>> Ray, FYI, I heard there's air vending in Florida somewhere. >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > step towards making the individual diver take a little more responsibility > upon his/her shoulders. A small step ... but a step all the same. Popeye - 13 Jun 2006 02:17 GMT > How does the vending machine check a tank for hydo and visual? > > Al > Bottoms Up Divers Why would it need to?
>>> Ray, FYI, I heard there's air vending in Florida somewhere. >>> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> responsibility upon his/her shoulders. A small step ... but a step all >> the same. Clifford Beshers - 13 Jun 2006 04:27 GMT >> How does the vending machine check a tank for hydo and visual? >> >> Al >> Bottoms Up Divers > > Why would it need to? Might damage the compressor. Wouldn't want that.
Popeye - 13 Jun 2006 05:22 GMT >>> How does the vending machine check a tank for hydo and visual? >>> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Might damage the compressor. Wouldn't want that. Statistically speaking, it's a non-event.
Any Outback restaurants near you?
 Signature Popeye "If one does as God does enough times, one will become as God is." -Dr. Hannibal Lector.
www.finalprotectivefire.com
Clifford Beshers - 13 Jun 2006 06:21 GMT >>>> How does the vending machine check a tank for hydo and visual? >>>> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Any Outback restaurants near you? Yup.
Alan Street - 13 Jun 2006 14:36 GMT > >>> How does the vending machine check a tank for hydo and visual? > >>> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Any Outback restaurants near you? You ate there once.
Popeye - 13 Jun 2006 14:42 GMT > ? "Clifford Beshers" <whistler@san.rr.com> wrote in message > ? news:Sgqjg.11957$Z67.9969@tornado.socal.rr.com... [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > You ate there once. Me and Erinn?
That was an Outback?
Alan Street - 13 Jun 2006 19:06 GMT > > ? "Clifford Beshers" <whistler@san.rr.com> wrote in message > > ? news:Sgqjg.11957$Z67.9969@tornado.socal.rr.com... [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > That was an Outback? Yep.
Ray - 13 Jun 2006 03:46 GMT > How does the vending machine check a tank for hydo and visual? > > Al > Bottoms Up Divers Just speculation, but if we (the USA) were to have these all over the place, then it puts the responsibility of following guidelines on the back of the person filling their own tanks. Yes, hydro and visual is designed to keep the owner and the filler of the cylinder safer, but in this case, they are both the same guy. I know that I wouldn't be dumb enough to pump an unknown potential bomb just because it was easier than going down to the dive shop.
Come to think of it, these would do a great job of reducing the number of idiot divers!
Hmmmm...
 Signature Ray Contreras =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Webmonkey for: http://www.ossystems.com http://www.bobs-garage.com http://www.clanwolverine.org http://www.rayzplace.com
Some Random Dude - 13 Jun 2006 04:56 GMT >> How does the vending machine check a tank for hydo and visual? >> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > >Hmmmm... given your ligitious culture it would be more likely to cause lawsuits by the family of a darwin award winner against the vendor providor AND the tank manufactorer and cause a senator who doesn't dive introduce a bill to make tank filling an exchange basis where you take your tank into a govt depot, pay $$$ and pick up another filled tank. every tank being tested hydroed, fiddled with and filled by work relief crims on rehab progams who need to read the manual every time they hook up a new tank.
:P Popeye - 13 Jun 2006 05:24 GMT >>> How does the vending machine check a tank for hydo and visual? >>> [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > :P That's a thought- in order to insure you have a valid VIP and hydro, you have to leave some part of your body in the chamber as a deposit while it fills, like a hand or a foot pressing a knob.
Perfect.
Some Random Dude - 13 Jun 2006 06:57 GMT >>>> How does the vending machine check a tank for hydo and visual? >>>> [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > Perfect. hmm... on the darwin awards topic... how about a port into the chamber at crotch height? that should make them think first
:P Popeye - 13 Jun 2006 11:27 GMT > hmm... on the darwin awards topic... how about a port into the chamber > at crotch height? that should make them think first > :P <weg>
 Signature Popeye "If one does as God does enough times, one will become as God is." -Dr. Hannibal Lector.
www.finalprotectivefire.com
Barry - 14 Jun 2006 11:40 GMT > given your ligitious culture it would be more likely to cause lawsuits > by the family of a darwin award winner against the vendor providor AND [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > :P I must say, it does sound like filling seems to be a lot stricter in the US - I've had my tanks visualed but they have no stickers and I've never been asked by shops about it. In fact, I don't think I've ever even been asked for a c-card, even when getting nitrox fills.
Popeye - 13 Jun 2006 05:18 GMT >> How does the vending machine check a tank for hydo and visual? >> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Hmmmm... :-)
Lee Bell - 13 Jun 2006 12:09 GMT > Just speculation, but if we (the USA) were to have these all over the > place, then it puts the responsibility of following guidelines on the back [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > an unknown potential bomb just because it was easier than going down to > the dive shop. My, haven't we all been indoctrinated well. There's no legal requirement for personal use pressure vessels to be visually inspected. That's an industry imposed standard, a requirement by those who make money off the tests. Add the VIP plus test which I've actually had shops include a charge for when inspecting my steel tanks as well as my Catalina aluminum tanks, neither of which has had the kind of problem the device tests for.
Just curious, out of all the people here, with all the tanks they own, how many have ever had a tank they bought new, and they filled only to the rated pressure, be destroyed as a result of hydro or visual test.
How does it happen that we're so concerned about inspections and hydro tests, but we're not worried about people pumping low pressure tanks to high presure levels or standard or high pressure tanks to above rated levels?
Between not getting an annual inspection and routinely filling tanks to significantly more than their rated service pressure, which do you suppose is more likely to result in a failure?
Personally, I'd probably still get my tanks hydro tested every five years or so and would visually inspect them myself whenever I suspected there might be a reason to.
Lee
Barry - 14 Jun 2006 11:27 GMT > How does the vending machine check a tank for hydo and visual? Simple, it ensures the diver is standing right next to the tank while its being filled. Would you skip the hyro and visuals? :-)
> Al > Bottoms Up Divers Barry - 14 Jun 2006 11:34 GMT >> These are fairly common in The Netherlands at least. Just coin-op >> filling machines giving about 50 bar for 50 eurocents. Very handy as [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Now THAT is very cool! Are these at the dive site run by the city or a > dive store nearby? I know of three at my regular dives sites; two are in the wall of dive shops, the other is in the wall of a garage/camping business located at the site.
> Ray Contreras > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > http://www.clanwolverine.org > http://www.rayzplace.com Greg Mossman - 12 Jun 2006 16:15 GMT > These are fairly common in The Netherlands at least. Just coin-op filling > machines giving about 50 bar for 50 eurocents. Very handy as they are open > 24/7 and much cheaper if you still have over half a tank and just need a > top-off. And you can legally smoke a joint and have sex with a prostitute while you're waiting. But we were talking about the "real" world, i.e. the U.S., where there's laws against all sorts of stuff and liability concerns even when there are no laws.
Who'd wanna dive in frigid NL waters anyway, what with all the joints to smoke and prostitutes to visit? It ain't gonna translate to Laguna Beach, where they're so freaked that they even require divers to wear snorkels. Plus the local residents already complain about noise made by early morning and night divers. There's no way they'd tolerate a noisy compressor on site.
mike gray - 13 Jun 2006 15:00 GMT >>These are fairly common in The Netherlands at least. Just coin-op filling >>machines giving about 50 bar for 50 eurocents. Very handy as they are open [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > And you can legally smoke a joint and have sex with a prostitute while > you're waiting. Damned slow fill stations!
GWB - 12 Jun 2006 21:57 GMT >>> <snip> My dive store may >>> go the way of the dinosaur and the horse carriage, I will get pure air [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > >> Just my $.02 YooHoo! No more pesky VIPs or Hydros!
Popeye - 12 Jun 2006 22:39 GMT > YooHoo! > No more pesky VIPs or Hydros! Until that last dynamic one, that is... :-)
 Signature Popeye "If one does as God does enough times, one will become as God is." -Dr. Hannibal Lector.
www.finalprotectivefire.com
Grumman-581 - 12 Jun 2006 22:44 GMT > YooHoo! > No more pesky VIPs or Hydros! Hydros-R-Us http://www.mytoolstore.com/young/stamps.html
VIPs-R-Us http://shop2.outpost.com/product/4807260 http://www.worldlabel.com/Pages/wl-ol525.htm
You just need to think outside the box...
Okidiver - 12 Jun 2006 00:40 GMT Opinions pro/con on internet v dive stores are like random posts on Usenet...
There's good dive stores and there's bad dive stores. What makes them that way are the folks working there. Very few of those folks are millionaires (ok, none are), most do it 'cause they love the sport, 'cause we all know that margins are thin.
When I find a good store full of employees, I stick with them 'cause I trust them to give me solid advice. I have made lifelong friends from dive lockers I've patronized. Yes, I've bought stuff off the internet.
Oh, forgot to mention the good customers and bad customers thing... and the fact that small sample sizes are not [generally] statistically valid...;-)
 Signature Rapid Rick "Just Dive, Baby"
My dive store may go the way of the dinosaur and the horse carriage
Bryan Heit - 12 Jun 2006 15:07 GMT > I would be interested in hearing other peoples experiences. Is this > unique, or the rule? I'd say you've had a run of bad luck. We've got several dive shops in town, two of which who are absolutely phenomenal. Great prices & selection; and run by the friendliest, most knowledgeable people I've ever met. I don't know what your selection is in your town, but if there is other shops it might be worthwhile giving them a chance. Although on-line may have better prices (and IME, this isn't always true), there are many advantages of using a local shop, at least if there is a local shop worthy of your business.
Now that said, I'm leaving town sometime around January, and am planning on doing the mail-order thing when I leave. That is, if my local shops are willing to ship stuff to me...
Bryan
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