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Scuba Forum / General / December 2003Shark feeding victim? Krishna Thompson sues Our Lucaya resort for $25 million
Shark feeding victim? Krishna Thompson sues Our Lucaya resort for $25 million http://www.cdnn.info/industry/i031205a/i031205a.html > Shark feeding victim? Krishna Thompson sues Our Lucaya resort for $25 > million > http://www.cdnn.info/industry/i031205a/i031205a.html Someone failed to tell this guy that there were sharks around ?? Perhaps he should name the shark-feeding operation in an additional suit. Salty left this mess on 7 Dec 2003 03:38:55 -0800 for The Way to clean up: >> Shark feeding victim? Krishna Thompson sues Our Lucaya resort for $25 >> million [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Perhaps he should name the shark-feeding operation in an additional >suit. If Scuba Booby had bothered to plagiarize a real reporter's work on the story, it would have noted the resort, "Our Lucaya" failed to post warnings about sharks in the area, or that shark feedings were happening twenty five feet from the resort's beach, with no underwater barrier blocking the beach from the feeding area. And if I'm not mistaken, if memory serves, the lifeguards watched the attack and did nothing until the guy struggled back to the beach once the shark cleared out. But you wouldn't know that, 'cause Scuba Booby is a jackass. Tao te Carl "It takes a village to have an idiot." - Carl (c) 2003 (Kudos to Cap'n Jim Wyatt for this link) BEFORE you ask a dumb-a.s question here...http://www.speakeasy.org/~neilco/bart.gif de Valois <devalois@nailedandused.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: :And if I'm not mistaken, if memory serves, the lifeguards watched the attack and :did nothing until the guy struggled back to the beach once the shark cleared :out. Discretion being the better part of valour and all that stuff. If sharks are feeding, I don't think the lifeguards should have entered the water. Dan Bracuk If at first you don't succeed, you run the risk of failure. The Best of rec.scuba http://www.pathcom.com/~bracuk/RecScuba/ Dan Bracuk, CTHD left this mess on Sun, 07 Dec 2003 09:28:06 -0500 for The Way to clean up: >de Valois <devalois@nailedandused.com> pounded away at his keyboard >resulting in: [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >sharks are feeding, I don't think the lifeguards should have entered >the water. I agree, but then that sort of begs the question regarding adequate warning if the lifeguards knew, but the bathers didn't. Tao te Carl "It takes a village to have an idiot." - Carl (c) 2003 (Kudos to Cap'n Jim Wyatt for this link) BEFORE you ask a dumb-a.s question here...http://www.speakeasy.org/~neilco/bart.gif > Dan Bracuk, CTHD left this mess on Sun, 07 Dec 2003 09:28:06 -0500 for The Way > to clean up: [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > I agree, but then that sort of begs the question regarding adequate warning if > the lifeguards knew, but the bathers didn't. Ummm, the guy was just attacked by a shark... I'm pretty sure that most of the bathers new at that point... :-) > Tao te Carl > "It takes a village to have an idiot." - Carl (c) 2003 > > (Kudos to Cap'n Jim Wyatt for this link) BEFORE you ask a dumb-a.s question > here...http://www.speakeasy.org/~neilco/bart.gif de Valois <devalois@nailedandused.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: :I agree, but then that sort of begs the question regarding adequate warning if :the lifeguards knew, but the bathers didn't. Maybe the lifeguards learned about the sharks when they saw the attack. Dan Bracuk If at first you don't succeed, you run the risk of failure. The Best of rec.scuba http://www.pathcom.com/~bracuk/RecScuba/ Dan Bracuk, CTHD left this mess on Mon, 08 Dec 2003 17:47:57 -0500 for The Way to clean up: >de Valois <devalois@nailedandused.com> pounded away at his keyboard >resulting in: [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Maybe the lifeguards learned about the sharks when they saw the >attack. Could be, but that would mean the shark feeding op next door to the resort just opened that day, I think. Tao te Carl "It takes a village to have an idiot." - Carl (c) 2003 (Kudos to Cap'n Jim Wyatt for this link) BEFORE you ask a dumb-a.s question here...http://www.speakeasy.org/~neilco/bart.gif > Salty left this mess on 7 Dec 2003 03:38:55 -0800 for The Way to clean up: > >> Shark feeding victim? Krishna Thompson sues Our Lucaya resort for $25 > >> million > >> http://www.cdnn.info/industry/i031205a/i031205a.html > >Someone failed to tell this guy that there were sharks around ?? > >Perhaps he should name the shark-feeding operation in an additional > >suit. > If Scuba Booby had bothered to plagiarize a real reporter's work on the story, > it would have noted the resort, "Our Lucaya" failed to post warnings about [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > out. > But you wouldn't know that, 'cause Scuba Booby is a jackass. Hmmm ?? Did you read the same article that I did ?? Everything that you mention was in the article that I read from the website posted. Regardless, when I dive in the ocean, I expect that I'll encounter some fish. Some of those fish could be man-eaters. That's the risk I take. The bizarre stuff in the article/charges about the shark-feeding within the beach, etc is just that. Bizarre. No one complains about how uncool it is for divers to feed sharks until someone gets bit. Hey, maybe this should be a freaking wake up call !! And as far as the lifeguards not jumping into the water to save him, well DUH !! was that *really* part of their employment contract ?? I mean I find it hard to believe that their job description read... "If you witness a guest being torn up by a shark, you will haul your sorry a.s into the water anyway and either beat that shark off of the guest or else act as a decoy." > The bizarre stuff in the article/charges about the > shark-feeding within the beach, etc is just that. Bizarre. No one > complains about how uncool it is for divers to feed sharks until > someone gets bit. Funny, I seem to remember quite a bit being said about it right here on rec.scuba back when Florida was still debating a fish/shark feeding ban. What I find really funny is that somebody is now claiming that shark feeding near the beach contributed to the attack that occurred. That, of course, is something that the shark feeders claimed would not happen. Anybody want to bet on whether the shark feeder in question was one of the people that testified about how safe it was when the Florida debates were going on? > Hey, maybe this should be a freaking wake up call > !! And as far as the lifeguards not jumping into the water to save [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > haul your sorry a.s into the water anyway and either beat that shark > off of the guest or else act as a decoy." Interesting question. The answer seems obvious, but on the other hand, lifeguards are paid and do agree to put their lives at risk to save those in trouble in the water. What use are they if they decline to help any time doing so would risk their own lives? Lee > > The bizarre stuff in the article/charges about the > > shark-feeding within the beach, etc is just that. Bizarre. No one [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > trouble in the water. What use are they if they decline to help any time > doing so would risk their own lives? Interesting take on the situation. During my lifeguard training, I was taught that you should do everything in your power to save the drowning victim while minimizing your own risk. This training even went so far as to say (basically) that if the person is thrashing, leave them alone (at least until they either calm down or go unconscious). We were trained in avoidance as well as (in water) escape tactics. We were taught to perceive that the person who was drowning was already dead and we had the ability to bring them back to life. If we killed ourselves in the process, it would mean that there were now 2 people dead instead of 1. C Guynn <snip> >> > Hey, maybe this should be a freaking wake up call >> > !! And as far as the lifeguards not jumping into the water to save [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > >C Guynn That rings true for me. I took a NAUI Rescue Diver course a couple of years ago, and we learned avoidance techniques, too. All through the scuba courses, we were instructed to avoid putting our own lives at risk while, of course, you always try to help, but not if you put your own life at immediate risk. During the Rescue Diver course, you approach a diver on the bottom and prod them to see if they're conscious and analyse the situation. You then apply a technique to take them from the rear, around the tanks, and use their power inflator to bring them to the surface. Everything was about hazard avoidance. --- Mike from Ottawa > <snip> > >> [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > --- > Mike from Ottawa Same with PADI rescue diver. id they're thrashing panicked and don't calm when you talk to them, do a duck dive and come up behind, holding solidly to the tank or BCD so they couldn't reach you, and inflate them, then there are a number of tows to get them to shore/boat without getting into their reach. If they do get hold of you theres always clubbing them uncounsious. interesting course. rhys <snip> >Same with PADI rescue diver. id they're thrashing panicked and don't calm >when you talk to them, do a duck dive and come up behind, holding solidly to [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >rhys I didn't want to bring up the clubbing. We do that with seals, too, and it always leads to controversy. --- Mike from Ottawa > <snip> > >Same with PADI rescue diver. id they're thrashing panicked and don't calm [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > --- > Mike from Ottawa seals? You mean the navy killers? I wouldn't like to be around one of those guys panicked, they carry all sorts of sharp stuff. someone can go fetch a trak gun from the zoo before I get near them... rhys <snip> >> I didn't want to bring up the clubbing. We do that with seals, too, >> and it always leads to controversy. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >rhys No, we just have the furry seals that eat cod. Brigitte Bardot came out a long time ago to cuddle with the seals, wearing her fur coat. Seals are cute, but cod ain't, to the detriment of the cod. Nobody out there cares about the clubbing of the cod. I guess we're getting a bit far of track here, eh? --- Mike from Ottawa > <snip> > >> I didn't want to bring up the clubbing. We do that with seals, too, [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > --- > Mike from Ottawa So?? This is rec.scuba. the further off track you get the better... maybe some day you'll end up back on topic after going the long way round and solving all the worlds ills on the way... ;) rhys Mike from Ottawa left this mess on Mon, 08 Dec 2003 17:23:43 -0500 for The Way to clean up: >No, we just have the furry seals that eat cod. Brigitte Bardot came >out a long time ago to cuddle with the seals, wearing her fur coat. >Seals are cute, but cod ain't, to the detriment of the cod. Nobody >out there cares about the clubbing of the cod. How wrong you are. Ask any Scandinavian about the movement to repeal lutefisk, a meal prepared by beating a cod with a pine board, then eating the board because it's tastier. Tao te Carl "It takes a village to have an idiot." - Carl (c) 2003 (Kudos to Cap'n Jim Wyatt for this link) BEFORE you ask a dumb-a.s question here...http://www.speakeasy.org/~neilco/bart.gif > <snip> > > >> [quoted text clipped - 55 lines] > > interesting course. This is all well and fine but I fail to see the singnificance that you have described. And no, it's not about certs as I've got a PADI Master Diver Cert and am doing a NAUI DM Cert. <snip> >This is all well and fine but I fail to see the singnificance that you >have described. And no, it's not about certs as I've got a PADI Master >Diver Cert and am doing a NAUI DM Cert. I've never been a lifeguard, and I simply don't know exactly how far they're supposed to go in saving a life. Jumping into shark-infested water sounds a bit dangerous, and I wouldn't blame a lifeguard for not performing a rescue in that situation. Diving certs are the only thing to which I can relate this. --- Mike from Ottawa > I've never been a lifeguard, and I simply don't know exactly how far > they're supposed to go in saving a life. Jumping into shark-infested > water sounds a bit dangerous, and I wouldn't blame a lifeguard for not > performing a rescue in that situation. Agreed. I think that if the resort expects the lifeguards to take some form of action directly, then the resort needs to make sure the guards are trained for this and provide them with the needed 'tools'... ie a dang harpoon. > Diving certs are the only thing to which I can relate this. But how ?? Do you have a cert that taught you what to do in case of shark attack ?? :) I can see your point about not wanting to have 2 victims. Mike from Ottawa left this mess on Sun, 07 Dec 2003 17:27:26 -0500 for The Way to clean up: ><snip> >>> [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] >and use their power inflator to bring them to the surface. Everything >was about hazard avoidance. Yes, but a Rescue Diver is not a paid lifeguard. Very different situation. Tao te Carl "It takes a village to have an idiot." - Carl (c) 2003 (Kudos to Cap'n Jim Wyatt for this link) BEFORE you ask a dumb-a.s question here...http://www.speakeasy.org/~neilco/bart.gif > > Interesting question. The answer seems obvious, but on the other hand, >> lifeguards are paid and do agree to put their lives at risk to save those >>in trouble in the water. What use are they if they decline to help any time >> doing so would risk their own lives? > >>Interesting take on the situation. Not exactly a take, just a thought I considered interesting. > During my lifeguard training, I was taught that you should do everything in your power to save the drowning victim while minimizing your own risk. So was I, but the fact remains, I was expected to guard the lives of those in my charge and, that alone, as ever life guard knows all too well, is a risk of life. > We were taught to perceive that the person who was drowning was already dead and we had the ability to bring them back to life. I've never heard anything like this. > If we killed ourselves in the process, it would mean that there were now 2 people dead instead of 1. Yep, we were all taught that. Most divers were too. > Yes, but a Rescue Diver is not a paid lifeguard. Very different situation. Sure is. Like I said, interesting question. Lee > > > Interesting question. The answer seems obvious, but on the other hand, > >> lifeguards are paid and do agree to put their lives at risk to save those [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > Lee The additional information about not even being willing to wade out into the water after the attack (when the shark had supposedly vacated the area) really muddies the water here. When you become a lifeguard (whether you are paid or not) you accept a certain amount of risk and liability. Much like (although not to the same degree) as a CPR for the professional rescuer cert. If you are CPR/PR certified, my understanding is that you have a legal obligation to render aid unless their are mitigating circumstances that create an unnecessary risk (downed power lines or toxic fumes or...). A lifeguard also has an obligation to uphold (although, if you aren't paid/on duty/whatever I think it is less). If these lifeguards are just standing on the bank (as is implied) waiting for the victim to come onto land, there is a SERIOUS problem and they should be held accountable for their actions. However, I'm not sure exactly what punishment I would be willing to award if I were on a jury hearing the case. The person in question lived and made it to shore. Obviously it wasn't serious enough to actually kill the man (since it didn't) although it could kill the next person. If the resort didn't fire them, that could be a factor as well (depending on the actual circumstances). Chris Guynn left this mess on Mon, 08 Dec 2003 16:07:08 GMT for The Way to clean up: >> > > Interesting question. The answer seems obvious, but on the other >hand, [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] >person. If the resort didn't fire them, that could be a factor as well >(depending on the actual circumstances). Also, it's dependent on the location. In the States, a rescue diver would be held blameless by dint of the fact that he/she is not a trained medical professional (key word being "professional"). A doctor in the same circumstances would be under a far heavier burden to provide assistance if possible, but his/her protection would then be Good Samaritan statutes: because this was not a patient he had agreed to take on, and he was rendering emergency assistance, if the victim dies, he cannot be held accountable unless it can be shown he was grossly negligent (let's say he was drunk). Similarly, a lifeguard has a duty to assist anyone he sees in trouble off-shore, and the standards of putting himself at risk are very different than for a rescue diver. Tao te Carl "It takes a village to have an idiot." - Carl (c) 2003 (Kudos to Cap'n Jim Wyatt for this link) BEFORE you ask a dumb-a.s question here...http://www.speakeasy.org/~neilco/bart.gif <snip> > Similarly, a lifeguard has a duty to assist anyone he sees in trouble off-shore, > and the standards of putting himself at risk are very different than for a > rescue diver. I agree, but the lifeguard must also assess the situation. Just like an EMT would not approach a person who was twitching next to a downed power line (without knowing if the line were still active) neither should a lifeguard approach a victim who they cannot approach in *relative* safety. They are provided many tools to help them with their job and they should be persistent in looking for an opening, but they are not supposed to blindly help anyone who may be in trouble. You should also remember that the guy was snorkeling in 5 feet of water. After the attack, he may have stood up and begun walking to the shore. I was always taught that a lifeguard should NEVER enter the water uless it is the last resort. If this guy was walking to shore anyway, why should they have gotten wet? I'm definitely not saying they were right, but I can also see situations where they might not have been wrong. > Tao te Carl > "It takes a village to have an idiot." - Carl (c) 2003 > > (Kudos to Cap'n Jim Wyatt for this link) BEFORE you ask a dumb-a.s question > here...http://www.speakeasy.org/~neilco/bart.gif Chris Guynn left this mess on Mon, 08 Dec 2003 21:21:51 GMT for The Way to clean up: ><snip> > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >they were right, but I can also see situations where they might not have >been wrong. Wasn't his leg chomped off? Tao te Carl "It takes a village to have an idiot." - Carl (c) 2003 (Kudos to Cap'n Jim Wyatt for this link) BEFORE you ask a dumb-a.s question here...http://www.speakeasy.org/~neilco/bart.gif <snip> > >I agree, but the lifeguard must also assess the situation. Just like an EMT > >would not approach a person who was twitching next to a downed power line [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Wasn't his leg chomped off? I didn't read it that closely. All I know is that his leg was bitten and he lost a lot of blood in the process. > Tao te Carl > "It takes a village to have an idiot." - Carl (c) 2003 > > (Kudos to Cap'n Jim Wyatt for this link) BEFORE you ask a dumb-a.s question > here...http://www.speakeasy.org/~neilco/bart.gif de Valois <devalois@nailedandused.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: :Similarly, a lifeguard has a duty to assist anyone he sees in trouble off-shore, :and the standards of putting himself at risk are very different than for a :rescue diver. What standards are these? Who sets them? Dan Bracuk If at first you don't succeed, you run the risk of failure. The Best of rec.scuba http://www.pathcom.com/~bracuk/RecScuba/ Dan Bracuk, CTHD left this mess on Mon, 08 Dec 2003 17:51:25 -0500 for The Way to clean up: >de Valois <devalois@nailedandused.com> pounded away at his keyboard >resulting in: [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >What standards are these? Who sets them? I can't speak for Lucaya. Tao te Carl "It takes a village to have an idiot." - Carl (c) 2003 (Kudos to Cap'n Jim Wyatt for this link) BEFORE you ask a dumb-a.s question here...http://www.speakeasy.org/~neilco/bart.gif "Chris Guynn" <chrisguynn@sbcglobal.N.O.S.P.A.M.net> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: :The additional information about not even being willing to wade out into the :water after the attack (when the shark had supposedly vacated the area) [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] :person. If the resort didn't fire them, that could be a factor as well :(depending on the actual circumstances). What about unnecessary risks for the lifeguard, like getting attacked by a shark? Dan Bracuk If at first you don't succeed, you run the risk of failure. The Best of rec.scuba http://www.pathcom.com/~bracuk/RecScuba/ Dan Bracuk wrote > What about unnecessary risks for the lifeguard, like getting attacked > by a shark? Precisely why it's an interesting question. It's kind of hard to define "unnecessary" for somebody that is paid to save lives, when one of the lives he is responsible for is at risk. It's also hard to define the level of risk. I've heard a lot of stories about people that came to the aid of a shark attack victim, often while the attack was in progress. I can't remember any story about the person providing assistance being attacked. Of course the fact that I've not heard them does not mean it hasn't happened. Lee Lee Bell left this mess on Tue, 09 Dec 2003 13:55:32 GMT for The Way to clean up: >Dan Bracuk wrote > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >remember any story about the person providing assistance being attacked. Of >course the fact that I've not heard them does not mean it hasn't happened. It is interesting. By Dan's lights, it sounds like the firefighters shouldn't have bothered going into the Twin Towers on 9-11. There was a clear risk to them. Tao te Carl "It takes a village to have an idiot." - Carl (c) 2003 (Kudos to Cap'n Jim Wyatt for this link) BEFORE you ask a dumb-a.s question here...http://www.speakeasy.org/~neilco/bart.gif > > The bizarre stuff in the article/charges about the > > shark-feeding within the beach, etc is just that. Bizarre. No one > > complains about how uncool it is for divers to feed sharks until > > someone gets bit. > Funny, I seem to remember quite a bit being said about it right here on > rec.scuba back when Florida was still debating a fish/shark feeding ban. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > bet on whether the shark feeder in question was one of the people that > testified about how safe it was when the Florida debates were going on? Hmmm. Well Lee, I don't know who it could be off hand. I have never been a proponent of shark feeding dives. I've said all along that if you feed them, you're gonna end up with some nasty creatures who are just like the bears in the state forests are now... they demand food when they see a human and they aren't so subtle about it. They will hurt you if they don't get your food. They will literally tear your car apart to get to a bag of chips... which they can now recognize by sight of the bag and by the smell. So hey... you wanna teach sharks to do the same thing by letting divers feed them, then IMHO you're a really sick f*ck. > > Hey, maybe this should be a freaking wake up call > > !! And as far as the lifeguards not jumping into the water to save [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > haul your sorry a.s into the water anyway and either beat that shark > > off of the guest or else act as a decoy." > Interesting question. The answer seems obvious, but on the other hand, > lifeguards are paid and do agree to put their lives at risk to save those in > trouble in the water. What use are they if they decline to help any time > doing so would risk their own lives? Deciding to put their lives on the line to save a person when they have to battle the currents, waves, etc is one thing. Deciding to put their lives on the line to save a person when they have to battle a fish that can tear them apart... and is tearing apart the person they are to save... is totally another. > Hmmm. Well Lee, I don't know who it could be off hand. I have never > been a proponent of shark feeding dives. I've said all along that if > you feed them, you're gonna end up with some nasty creatures who are > just like the bears in the state forests are now... they demand food > when they see a human and they aren't so subtle about it. I am not a sharkfeed proponent either, but the analogy of resulting shark vs. bear behaviours is rudimentary at best and stupifying at worst. Maybe this is why the movement to ban sharksfeeds has never approached the strength required to overcome the fiscal benefits. > > Hmmm. Well Lee, I don't know who it could be off hand. I have never > > been a proponent of shark feeding dives. I've said all along that if [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > this is why the movement to ban sharksfeeds has never approached the > strength required to overcome the fiscal benefits. Perhaps you could explain your statements. I'd be very interested to hear your distinction betweeen one wild animal being fed and another wild animal being fed. > > Hmmm. Well Lee, I don't know who it could be off hand. I have never > > been a proponent of shark feeding dives. I've said all along that if [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > this is why the movement to ban sharksfeeds has never approached the > strength required to overcome the fiscal benefits. Florida passed the ban. > > I am not a sharkfeed proponent either, but the analogy of resulting shark > > vs. bear behaviours is rudimentary at best and stupifying at worst. Maybe > > this is why the movement to ban sharksfeeds has never approached the > > strength required to overcome the fiscal benefits. > Florida passed the ban. Ya know what...I'm sitting here thinking about this issue (and enjoying this glass of wine, thinking about the Christmas party I was at tonite and about upcoming holidays, and realizing that I need to be at work in 5 hrs) and I just thought about something to do with our local quarries. There was a time when divers thought that feeding the fish in the quarry was cool. I admit I did this and I carried out this deed by bringing a few slices of lunchmeat inside a plastic bag on dives with me. This occured before the invention of ziplock bags and so by the time you got to depth, the stuff you took down was a yucky mess. Many divers would haul a can of Cheese-Whiz and literally squirt it into the water for the fish to eat. Mind you, I am talking about Willow Springs, Dutch Springs and Bainbridge where the fish in question are 'sunnies'. I've seen a few big catfish in Bainbridge but they always took off when you got close to them. So the fish I'm referring to are about 6 in long at the most but average for them is mostly like 4 in. The more I think about it, the more I realize that these fish were extremely used to being fed by divers. There's one incident that took place and it gives me cause to connect it to shark-feeding... and then think to myself "Holy sh.t !!". Hub and I were diving at Bainbridge among all the divers feeding the fish. This was one time when I didn't bring any food for them. It was not a conscious effort on my part to stop feeding them. I simply didn't have anything to give them. Hub never fed them. He didn't think it was right to do. Anyway, he and I were looking at something... I don't recall what...and we were at about 20 ft. A group of these sunnies appeared around us and I started to wiggle my fingers at them. They were looking at me and investigating my hands to see what I had like... "Where's my food??" but didn't bite me. However, for some reason, one did bite hub's ear !! The little stinker drew blood from hub !! The more I think about their behavior, the more I'm convinced that they were acting on 'auto-pilot'. IMHO, you would not see this fish behavior today at the quarry because feeding them is very much frowned upon. Draw your own conclusions. Then, reformat them to include a predator like a shark. On that note... goodnite. LOL :P) > The more I think about their behavior, the more I'm convinced that > they were acting on 'auto-pilot'. IMHO, you would not see this fish > behavior today at the quarry because feeding them is very much frowned > upon. Draw your own conclusions. Then, reformat them to include a > predator like a shark. I hope you didn't have to think about this too long - it is an obvious no brainer. If you dive near the feeding sites off New Providence, you will easily see what feeding is doing to the sharks. While you're there, ask the ops why they no longer feed at the site called Arena. Feeding sharks is just plain stupid, but a bigger problem is fishing piers and surf fishing at beaches where there is swimming. Even without that, there will always be isolated problems where predatory fish feed in the surf zone. Does anyone remember the bluefish incident in southern Connecticut a few years ago? The blues chased the baitfish into the surf where a group of kids was swimming, and several kids were badly hurt. al > > The more I think about their behavior, the more I'm convinced that > > they were acting on 'auto-pilot'. IMHO, you would not see this fish > > behavior today at the quarry because feeding them is very much frowned > > upon. Draw your own conclusions. Then, reformat them to include a > > predator like a shark. > I hope you didn't have to think about this too long - it is an obvious > no brainer. If you dive near the feeding sites off New Providence, you > will easily see what feeding is doing to the sharks. While you're there, > ask the ops why they no longer feed at the site called Arena. I had completely forgotten about that incident Al. It happened several years ago. I can't say that I've ever been 'swamped' by fish looking for a hand-out like that since. I think you've stayed at Sand Dollar in Bonaire. If so, do you remember their restaurant on the pier and how the fish would congregrate there because ppl fed them ?? I dove directly under and around that pier both during the day and at night, yet the fish didn't try to 'attack' for food. I wonder why. They weren't hungry ?? <g> Where is New Providence and what about Arena ?? > Feeding sharks is just plain stupid, but a bigger problem is fishing > piers and surf fishing at beaches where there is swimming. Even without > that, there will always be isolated problems where predatory fish feed > in the surf zone. Does anyone remember the bluefish incident in southern > Connecticut a few years ago? The blues chased the baitfish into the surf > where a group of kids was swimming, and several kids were badly hurt. I do not recall the Connecticut incident. Several times while looking at the ocean off the porch of our shore house, I've seen something chasing blues. Whatever it was, (or they were) it was very aggressive and fast. Also, my ex and I used to go out on his Hobie off of Ocean City, NJ and we did our best not to tip it during the times that the blues were 'running' because several ppl got bit by them. I've been diving off of Shark River Inlet many times and have never seen a shark there, despite many fishermen being there at times. However, while diving there, I'm usually looking at the rock structure to see the juvenille tropicals and eels, etc or looking straight down for crabs on the bottom and not looking out to the void of the ocean... so maybe there were sharks but I just didn't see them. Only once did I ever get really 'spooked' while swimming in the surf. That occured off of Top Sail. Something brushed against my foot while I was swimming...or perhaps I kicked it. Whatever it was, it was large and firm. I immediately got the sense of 'it's there following me and watching' to the point that I had to get out of the water. There were no fishermen around, it was almost sunset and so there was no one around at all...but ppl had been fishing earlier. I'm not saying that it was a shark. I didn't see anything at all but I felt it and it made the hair on my neck stand on end. At any rate, it's pretty difficult to find a beach where there is no fishing nearby. In terms of sharks, it's nothing for them to swim miles and miles. So 'nearby' is kinda relative to the fish rather than to us. babette7401@hotmail.com (Salty) pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: :The more I think about it, the more I realize that these fish were :extremely used to being fed by divers. There's one incident that took [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] :reason, one did bite hub's ear !! The little stinker drew blood from :hub !! A similar thing happened to me. To make a long story short, the dive site was the Oro Verde, off the coast of Grand Cayman. I was hanging on to a bar hanging from the boat, and a chub bit my finger. This is a popular dive site, and I am sure that the fish get fed by divers. Dan Bracuk If at first you don't succeed, you run the risk of failure. The Best of rec.scuba http://www.pathcom.com/~bracuk/RecScuba/ > Hmmm. Well Lee, I don't know who it could be off hand. It shouldn't be hard to figure out. We know where the attack happened and, with a little research, would also know who does shark dives in that area. I've got a pretty good idea already, but won't say more until I've done some research myself. > I have never > been a proponent of shark feeding dives. I've said all along that if [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > do the same thing by letting divers feed them, then IMHO you're a > really sick f*ck. So far, sharks have not proven to be quite that bad. They do learn to associate people with food and they do tend to approach more agressively when conditioned to expect to be fed. Unlike bears, however, they are relatively easy to discourage provided you see them coming. Even if you don't see them coming, injuries to divers have almost all been accidental, a byeproduct of a shark going for food the diver was carrying, a speared fish, for instance. > Deciding to put their lives on the line to save a person when they > have to battle the currents, waves, etc is one thing. Deciding to put > their lives on the line to save a person when they have to battle a > fish that can tear them apart... and is tearing apart the person they > are to save... is totally another. Like I said, interesting question. I previously posted a statement that I've read a lot of articles about people who jumped in to assist a shark attack victim, some more successfully than others. I don't recall any instances where the rescuer was, in turn, attacked by the shark. Do you? Lee > It shouldn't be hard to figure out. We know where the attack happened and, > with a little research, would also know who does shark dives in that area. > I've got a pretty good idea already, but won't say more until I've done some > research myself. You have me curious now. > So far, sharks have not proven to be quite that bad. They do learn to > associate people with food and they do tend to approach more agressively [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > byeproduct of a shark going for food the diver was carrying, a speared fish, > for instance. I agree with you as far as injuries to divers so far. The thing is though, that shark feeding is relatively new as compared to ppl visiting parks and such where the bears have learned about food. The bears seem to have been able to be 'trained' re: the relationship between humans and a food source, and those adults have carried that knowledge one step farther. They teach their cubs. How will sharks behave after many years of being able to associate humans with food ?? > > Deciding to put their lives on the line to save a person when they > > have to battle the currents, waves, etc is one thing. Deciding to put > > their lives on the line to save a person when they have to battle a > > fish that can tear them apart... and is tearing apart the person they > > are to save... is totally another. > Like I said, interesting question. I previously posted a statement that > I've read a lot of articles about people who jumped in to assist a shark > attack victim, some more successfully than others. I don't recall any > instances where the rescuer was, in turn, attacked by the shark. Do you? I think recall hearing about anyone who deliberately jumped in to assist a shark attack victim during what was to become the 'real-life saga of Jaws'. I believe a boy tired to save his friend and subsequently lost his leg but I'll have to see if I can find more info about this. I don't think I've heard of any modern-day incidents of this kind... although I seem to recall hearing about a parent who dove in to save a child from an alligator. Different animal and set of circumstances though. > Like I said, interesting question. I previously posted a statement that > I've read a lot of articles about people who jumped in to assist a shark > attack victim, some more successfully than others. I don't recall any > instances where the rescuer was, in turn, attacked by the shark. Do you? The United States Lifesaving Association is unaware of any proven techniques whereby an unprotected swimming rescuer can successfully or safely intervene when a shark bites another swimmer, without placing the rescuer at equal risk of harm. On the other hand, since most shark bites occur quickly and can cause serious, sometimes life-threatening lacerations, there is great value in the availability of trained personnel to rescue the injured swimmer, provide emergency medical care, and arrange rapid transport after a shark bite has occurred. Response 1. The best protective equipment for a lifeguard attempting a rescue of a shark bite victim is an enclosed rescue boat with high gunwales. A personal watercraft may be an alternative, but most personal watercraft provide less protection to the lifeguard and may not be adequate to safely evacuate a seriously injured victim. While a rescue board or kayak may elevate the lifeguard from the water, it is believed that some sharks have bitten surfers and kayakers after mistaking them for seals or sea lions. In areas where shark bites have occurred with higher than normal frequency, lifeguards should consider stationing a rescue boat in the vicinity that can allow a rapid, safe response to such incidents. 2. If a lifeguard observes a shark bite in progress, the lifeguard should immediately notify other lifeguards and determine the most appropriate course of action. This should follow the agency.s overall emergency response plans and any specific plans that may exist for shark bites. 3. The United States Lifesaving Association does not recommend that a lifeguard without protective equipment attempt to intervene during a shark bite incident, unless the lifeguard believes this can be accomplished with minimum personal danger. The primary goal of the lifeguard in responding to the emergency should be to limit injury to the victim of the shark bite, while ensuring that the lifeguard is protected. If the lifeguard is injured in an attempt to intervene, there will now be two victims and the lifeguard may be unable to effectively treat the potentially life-threatening wounds of the original victim. This is particularly important in that shark bites can result in serious bleeding and immediate emergency medical attention may save the victim.s life. 4. If a rescue boat is not available and if, as is most typically the case, the shark bite appears to be a single hit and run incident, and if the lifeguard considers it safe and within agency guidelines to enter the water, the lifeguard should perform a rescue and treat the wounds of the victim. 5. Once the victim has been evacuated to shore or to a rescue boat, appropriate emergency medical assistance should be provided, in accordance with the lifeguard.s training. In addition to normal emergency medical priorities, particular attention should be paid to stopping bleeding and treating for shock. 6. In beach areas where shark bites have historically occurred with a frequency that is significantly higher than normal, specific policies appropriate to local conditions are recommended. These policies should be based, in part, on consultation with shark experts and local emergency medical authorities. http://www.cslsa.org/events/ArchiveAttachments/Spring02/Sharks-Flags.pdf Top posting here so as to reply quickly without snipping. Excellent. Thanks for posting this Greg. From a legal standpoint, what do you think about the man's lawsuit ?? > The United States Lifesaving Association is unaware of any proven techniques > whereby an unprotected swimming rescuer can successfully or safely intervene [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] > > http://www.cslsa.org/events/ArchiveAttachments/Spring02/Sharks-Flags.pdf > Top posting here so as to reply quickly without snipping. Excellent. > Thanks for posting this Greg. From a legal standpoint, what do you [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > 1. The best protective equipment for a lifeguard attempting a rescue of a > > shark bite victim is an enclosed rescue boat with high gunwales. Ahem, I believe I mentioned that back at the beginning of this aspect of the thread. > > 4. If a rescue boat is not available and if, as is most typically the case . . . About now, somebody should be asking why. > > 6. In beach areas where shark bites have historically occurred with a > > frequency that is significantly higher than normal, specific policies > > appropriate to local conditions are recommended. These policies should be > > based, in part, on consultation with shark experts and local emergency > > medical authorities. A handy boat comes to mind. Lee <snipping> > > "Greg Mossman" <mossman@qnet.com> wrote in message > news:<3fdbc615$0$75801$6c56adcd@news.qnet.com>... > > > 1. The best protective equipment for a lifeguard attempting a rescue of > a > > > shark bite victim is an enclosed rescue boat with high gunwales. > Ahem, I believe I mentioned that back at the beginning of this aspect of the > thread. Actually, I mentioned it first on the morning of Dec 9th and you mentioned later that same day. From: Salty (babette7401@hotmail.com) Date: 2003-12-09 10:08:37 PST de Valois <devalois@nailedandused.com> wrote in message He's from NY ?? Then I can understand that the expectation would be to call for help or possibly to go into the water in a boat with a spear or something to use to injure the animal enough to get it off of the person, and then get the person into the boat. If you owned the resort, what would you expect from the lifeguards in this situation ?? From: Lee Bell (leebell@ix.remove.netcom.com) Date: 2003-12-09 18:45:23 PST "Dan Bracuk wrote > What is the recommended protective equipment for a lifeguard before > they go into shark infested waters? A boat. Lee Guess you and I were on the same wave length. Regardless, that doesn't address the liability issue as stated by the claimant. > > > 4. If a rescue boat is not available and if, as is most typically the > case . . . > About now, somebody should be asking why. No, they shouldn't. I know of several resorts that have boats but they aren't stationed on the beach all day. They are used to take ppl diving or site-seeing, etc. You are now talking about having at least one boat that is to be left for 'shark rescue'. That isn't going to fly with many resorts outside the USA or inside the USA. That isn't going to fly with many beaches either. Do the Lauderdale beaches have boats ready to launch or positioned in the water ?? The times I was on the beaches there, I didn't seen a lifeguard. And when I lived in New Smyrna Beach FLA, albeit that was 25 yrs ago, there were no lifeguards at all. > > > 6. In beach areas where shark bites have historically occurred with a > > > frequency that is significantly higher than normal, specific policies > > > appropriate to local conditions are recommended. These policies should > be > > > based, in part, on consultation with shark experts and local emergency > > > medical authorities. > A handy boat comes to mind. The line from the movie comes to my mind... "We're gonna need a bigger boat." Salty left this mess on 7 Dec 2003 11:12:11 -0800 for The Way to clean up: >> Salty left this mess on 7 Dec 2003 03:38:55 -0800 for The Way to clean up: >> >> Shark feeding victim? Krishna Thompson sues Our Lucaya resort for $25 [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] >haul your sorry a.s into the water anyway and either beat that shark >off of the guest or else act as a decoy." First of all, you're a diver and sign a release form, so you can be assumed to have informed consent. He was bathing in the surf. Very different situation. He can be assumed *not* to have informed consent. Second, the contention of the *true* story, as opposed to the third hand info Scuba Booby posted, is not that the lifeguards failed to risk their lives, but that they didn't even wade out when the shark had cleared the area and Thompson was struggling back to the beach. Third, yea, I think the lifeguards probably received *some* training about what to do if a guest gets attacked and part of that training probably involved something along the lines of "if you *don't* help, you and the resort will be open to suit on the grounds that you should have helped." Tao te Carl "It takes a village to have an idiot." - Carl (c) 2003 (Kudos to Cap'n Jim Wyatt for this link) BEFORE you ask a dumb-a.s question here...http://www.speakeasy.org/~neilco/bart.gif > Salty left this mess on 7 Dec 2003 11:12:11 -0800 for The Way to clean up: > > [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > have informed consent. He was bathing in the surf. Very different situation. He > can be assumed *not* to have informed consent. How so ?? IIRC, there are sharks everywhere. WHat is this 'informed consent' crap ?? Hey, how about if I step on a broken shell. It cuts my foot. Do I have the right to sue because the shell cut me... and what if the I'm a diabetic who has to be very careful of my cuts ?? > Second, the contention of the *true* story, as opposed to the third hand info > Scuba Booby posted, is not that the lifeguards failed to risk their lives, but > that they didn't even wade out when the shark had cleared the area and Thompson > was struggling back to the beach. Yea... and ??? > Third, yea, I think the lifeguards probably received *some* training about what > to do if a guest gets attacked and part of that training probably involved > something along the lines of "if you *don't* help, you and the resort will be > open to suit on the grounds that you should have helped." And ya know what... if I worked there, I'd say "F*ck you and everything you need to have on the cue for this guest." It's either pick a way to stand up or not... regardless of the guests if a shark comes at you. Calamari left this mess on 8 Dec 2003 10:47:30 -0800 for The Way to clean up: >How so ?? IIRC, there are sharks everywhere. WHat is this 'informed >consent' crap ?? Hey, how about if I step on a broken shell. It cuts >my foot. Do I have the right to sue because the shell cut me... and >what if the I'm a diabetic who has to be very careful of my cuts ?? Please. This guy is from New York. The only shark he sees at the beach is the one at the Coney Island Aquarium. >> Second, the contention of the *true* story, as opposed to the third hand info >>Scuba Booby posted, is not that the lifeguards failed to risk their lives, but [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >pick a way to stand up or not... regardless of the guests if a shark >comes at you. And get fired. Which is likely what should have happened. Tao te Carl "It takes a village to have an idiot." - Carl (c) 2003 (Kudos to Cap'n Jim Wyatt for this link) BEFORE you ask a dumb-a.s question here...http://www.speakeasy.org/~neilco/bart.gif > Please. This guy is from New York. The only shark he sees at the beach is the > one at the Coney Island Aquarium. He's from NY ?? Then that explains everything. :) Seriously though, he had to realize the dangers of the ocean before he jumped into the water. > And get fired. Which is likely what should have happened. I can understand that the expectation would be to call for help or possibly to go into the water in a boat with a spear or something to use to injure the animal enough to get it off of the person, and then get the person into the boat. If you owned the resort, what would you expect from the lifeguards in this situation ?? Salty left this mess on 9 Dec 2003 10:08:37 -0800 for The Way to clean up: >> Please. This guy is from New York. The only shark he sees at the beach is the >> one at the Coney Island Aquarium. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >get the person into the boat. If you owned the resort, what would you >expect from the lifeguards in this situation ?? That's the easy part: I'd expect him to act in a manner that will save me from a $25 million dollar lawsuit, and to protect my guests so they'll come back again. Tao te Carl "It takes a village to have an idiot." - Carl (c) 2003 (Kudos to Cap'n Jim Wyatt for this link) BEFORE you ask a dumb-a.s question here...http://www.speakeasy.org/~neilco/bart.gif > Salty left this mess on 9 Dec 2003 10:08:37 -0800 for The Way to clean up: > > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > That's the easy part: I'd expect him to act in a manner that will save me from a > $25 million dollar lawsuit, and to protect my guests so they'll come back again. I'd expect that he'd keep himself safe and make a good show of trying to "rescue" the guy so that when the guy gets to shore (with or without the lifeguards help) witnesses can say that the lifeguard made a reasonable effort... <eg> > Tao te Carl > "It takes a village to have an idiot." - Carl (c) 2003 > > (Kudos to Cap'n Jim Wyatt for this link) BEFORE you ask a dumb-a.s question > here...http://www.speakeasy.org/~neilco/bart.gif Chris Guynn left this mess on Tue, 09 Dec 2003 22:17:35 GMT for The Way to clean up: >> Salty left this mess on 9 Dec 2003 10:08:37 -0800 for The Way to clean up: >> > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >lifeguards help) witnesses can say that the lifeguard made a reasonable >effort... <eg> I think I'd classify that as "what I would expect from myself if I was the lifeguard" :) Tao te Carl "It takes a village to have an idiot." - Carl (c) 2003 (Kudos to Cap'n Jim Wyatt for this link) BEFORE you ask a dumb-a.s question here...http://www.speakeasy.org/~neilco/bart.gif > That's the easy part: I'd expect him to act in a manner that will save me from a > $25 million dollar lawsuit, and to protect my guests so they'll come back again. Like maybe he should be able to walk on water to go and fetch the guest ?? <g> Salty left this mess on 9 Dec 2003 23:21:55 -0800 for The Way to clean up: >>That's the easy part: I'd expect him to act in a manner that will save me from a >>$25 million dollar lawsuit, and to protect my guests so they'll come back again. > >Like maybe he should be able to walk on water to go and fetch the guest ?? <g> If I knew there were sharks in the water I was about to rescue a guy from, you can bet your a.s I'd be trying! Tao te Carl "It takes a village to have an idiot." - Carl (c) 2003 (Kudos to Cap'n Jim Wyatt for this link) BEFORE you ask a dumb-a.s question here...http://www.speakeasy.org/~neilco/bart.gif > > That's the easy part: I'd expect him to act in a manner that will save me from a > > $25 million dollar lawsuit, and to protect my guests so they'll come back again. > > Like maybe he should be able to walk on water to go and fetch the guest ?? <g> They make special "shoes" that would actually make this possible. I don't know how well they work though. I saw a special on them on one of those techie/invention/discovery channels. Or maybe it was an infomercial... I can't remember... > I can understand that the expectation would be to call for help or > possibly to go into the water in a boat with a spear or something to > use to injure the animal enough to get it off of the person, and then > get the person into the boat. If you owned the resort, what would you > expect from the lifeguards in this situation ?? We're talking the Bahamas here. I'd be impressed if my lifeguards could swim. > We're talking the Bahamas here. I'd be impressed if my lifeguards could > swim. Lee..... <chuckle> Ok, get serious. I've been wondering about a couple of things. First, we've talked about how far should a rescuer go. Do you recall hearing something about an incident where professional rescuers (the Coast Guard ??) refused to set foot on a capsized boat's hull in order to attempt to extract the ppl who were trapped in their cabins ?? Something about they would not risk being on a craft that was so unstable that it could flip again in the middle of the extraction ?? I seem to remember hearing about this but I'm not sure of the details. Second, I'm wondering if any beach resorts around you in Fla put nets up in the water to protect swimmers from sharks. Do you know of any ?? > > First of all, you're a diver and sign a release form, so you can be assumed to > > have informed consent. He was bathing in the surf. Very different situation. He > > can be assumed *not* to have informed consent. Only if you're diving with a commercial operator. > How so ?? IIRC, there are sharks everywhere. Your recollection is faulty. There are not sharks everywhere. In this case there were sharks close by specifically because somebody had been feeding them. They were deliberately attracted to the area and the resort new it. While I don't think that necessarily makes the resort liable, it does suggest that they knew something that might have benefitted the swimmer who was attacked. > WHat is this 'informed consent' crap ?? Hey, how about if I step on a broken shell. > It cuts my foot. Do I have the right to sue because the shell cut me... and > what if the I'm a diabetic who has to be very careful of my cuts ?? It does if somebody put that shell there on purpose, knowing that unsuspecting barefoot people would be walking in the area. Lee > > > First of all, you're a diver and sign a release form, so you can be > assumed to > > > have informed consent. He was bathing in the surf. Very different > situation. He > > > can be assumed *not* to have informed consent. > Only if you're diving with a commercial operator. I didn't write that part. > > How so ?? IIRC, there are sharks everywhere. > Your recollection is faulty. There are not sharks everywhere. In this case > there were sharks close by specifically because somebody had been feeding > them. They were deliberately attracted to the area and the resort new it. > While I don't think that necessarily makes the resort liable, it does > suggest that they knew something that might have benefitted the swimmer who > was attacked. First, I had to re-read the article because I wasn't sure if the person was diving or swimming. FSR, I thought he was diving but it seems he was snorkeling. Second, I don't believe that my recollection is faulty at all. I truly believe there are sharks, many more then we see with our naked eye. I recall hearing this mentioned on a TV documentary once also. Think about the dive that we did when we saw that hammerhead. I don't believe that that particular shark 'strayed far from home.' I think that there are probably alot of hammers in that area but that they see you before you see them and, for whatever reason, they decide to stay away from you. Don't you think that while you're diving off of Boynton and Lauderdale, there are alot of sharks who are just outside your vision ?? The shark feeding wasn't taking place right off of the resort's beach. How much of the ocean is a resort accountable for ?? > > WHat is this 'informed consent' crap ?? Hey, how about if I step on a > broken shell. > > It cuts my foot. Do I have the right to sue because the shell cut me... > and > > what if the I'm a diabetic who has to be very careful of my cuts ?? > It does if somebody put that shell there on purpose, knowing that > unsuspecting barefoot people would be walking in the area. I don't think the resort 'put' the shark there. :) Calamari left this mess on 9 Dec 2003 11:51:07 -0800 for The Way to clean up: >> It does if somebody put that shell there on purpose, knowing that >> unsuspecting barefoot people would be walking in the area. > >I don't think the resort 'put' the shark there. :) No, but they knew there was shark feeding going on only feet from their shores. That should have been made a note of for guests who were thinking about swimming. Of course, that would have driven guests away, now wouldn't it? Ergo, because of their greed, they kept quiet and hoped for the best. They rolled the bones and the bones came up craps. They ought to be sued for that stupidity alone. Tao te Carl "It takes a village to have an idiot." - Carl (c) 2003 (Kudos to Cap'n Jim Wyatt for this link) BEFORE you ask a dumb-a.s question here...http://www.speakeasy.org/~neilco/bart.gif > Calamari left this mess on 9 Dec 2003 11:51:07 -0800 for The Way to clean up: > >I don't think the resort 'put' the shark there. :) > No, but they knew there was shark feeding going on only feet from their shores. > That should have been made a note of for guests who were thinking about > swimming. Of course, that would have driven guests away, now wouldn't it? Well now wait de...the article says the feeding was like a mile off shore. > Ergo, because of their greed, they kept quiet and hoped for the best. They > rolled the bones and the bones came up craps. They ought to be sued for that > stupidity alone. So should every resort be required to post a sign that says... "Beware of sea life that can bite and eat you. Swim at your own risk." ?? Don't you think that most ppl understand that sharks live in the ocean ?? Salty left this mess on 9 Dec 2003 23:25:48 -0800 for The Way to clean up: >> Calamari left this mess on 9 Dec 2003 11:51:07 -0800 for The Way to clean up: >> >I don't think the resort 'put' the shark there. :) [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >Well now wait de...the article says the feeding was like a mile off >shore. Yea, but that's Scuba Booby's slant on things. But the op was right next door. Sharks, however dumb we may think they are, can learn at least this much: boat has food, follow boat. It stands to reason they might follow it back to port. >> Ergo, because of their greed, they kept quiet and hoped for the best. They >> rolled the bones and the bones came up craps. They ought to be sued for that [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Don't you think that most ppl understand that sharks live in the ocean >?? Again, you're assuming something that may not be true. Do people know sharks live in the water? Yes. Do most people ever *see* a shark? No. He's from a part of the world where the most dangerous thing in the water is a dead jellyfish, at least to his mind. Do I absolve him of responsibility for, say, maybe reading up a little, or paying attention? No, but that also does not absolve the resort from their actions. It is incumbent on them to remind guests, early and often, of any dangers. Isn't this why when we dive with an op, we sign releases? Yes, it protects the op, but it also notifies us that "scuba is a dangerous activity" (or whatever the wording is). Now, Lucaya had two choices: remind their guests (signs are the usual thing, if California is any guide) that sharks patrol their waters, or face the consequences of a shark attack. I'd be curious to know why they didn't inform the swimmer. Tao te Carl "It takes a village to have an idiot." - Carl (c) 2003 (Kudos to Cap'n Jim Wyatt for this link) BEFORE you ask a dumb-a.s question here...http://www.speakeasy.org/~neilco/bart.gif > Salty left this mess on 9 Dec 2003 23:25:48 -0800 for The Way to clean up: > > [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > > I'd be curious to know why they didn't inform the swimmer. They probably did, it was just a little too late by then... <eg> > Tao te Carl > "It takes a village to have an idiot." - Carl (c) 2003 > > (Kudos to Cap'n Jim Wyatt for this link) BEFORE you ask a dumb-a.s question > here...http://www.speakeasy.org/~neilco/bart.gif Salty left this mess on 9 Dec 2003 23:25:48 -0800 for The Way to clean up: >> Calamari left this mess on 9 Dec 2003 11:51:07 -0800 for The Way to clean up: >> >I don't think the resort 'put' the shark there. :) [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >Well now wait de...the article says the feeding was like a mile off >shore. OK, I read the facts on this part... The lawyer for the _resort_ says the shark feeding was a mile off shore. But the feeding operator, "Shark Junction" has a pier just feet from Lucaya's beach. So one cannot take the "mile off shore" literally, since it's from an interested party. Tao te Carl "It takes a village to have an idiot." - Carl (c) 2003 (Kudos to Cap'n Jim Wyatt for this link) BEFORE you ask a dumb-a.s question here...http://www.speakeasy.org/~neilco/bart.gif > > Calamari left this mess on 9 Dec 2003 11:51:07 -0800 for The Way to clean up: > > >I don't think the resort 'put' the shark there. :) [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Don't you think that most ppl understand that sharks live in the ocean > ?? I think that most people think that sharks live *way* out in the ocean and that Jaws was an anomalous documentary... <eg> > > de Valois <devalois@nailedandused.com> wrote in message > news:<br5f1i0298j@drn.newsguy.com>... [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > Don't you think that most ppl understand that sharks live in the ocean > > ?? > I think that most people think that sharks live *way* out in the ocean and > that Jaws was an anomalous documentary... <eg> Hmm. I'd have to disagree. I think that the recent news media frenzy about shark attacks off of the East and West coasts of the USA have made ppl think that Jaws could happen to them any time that they swim off of our beaches. I also think that alot depends on your upbringing here. Ever since I was an infant, my parents took us kids to Wildwood, NJ every summer. They were going to buy a motel there but didn't. God, how different would my life be if they had ??!! LOL Ok... back on target, we went to Wildwood for vacation for at least 2 weeks every summer. In addition, our grandparents took us to Avalon, or Sea Isle or Beach Haven... but mostly Avalon. I learned to swim at about the same time that I learned to ride a tricycle. My parents house had a pool as a kid, we swam at camp in the summer, and then we swam on vacation. There was no question about it from my parents... we were expected to swim and to like the ocean. When I was a teen, my father and I used to race free-style whenever we could. Sometimes I beat him. I did beat my bro-in-law and my neice at a freestyle swim race just 2 years ago. Perhaps some of this is because my mom and dad first met while they were both on the beach at Atlantic City. Mom was with her gal pals sunning and swimming. Dad was with a few of his buds horseback riding on the beach. He stopped to talk with her, they went swimming, the rest is history. And yes... I love horsebackriding too. :) At any rate, there was never a time that my parents told us that we could just 'play' in the ocean without a care to the danger. The thing that strikes me as a child is that the New Jersey beaches used to close once in a while completely due to sharks being sighted. That was not that common but it did happen. What was more common for us to experience was that 'the shark sighters' would spot a big one and then the lifeguards would only let you swim in water up to your knees. So... this guy lived in NYC. I grew up in Philly. Why did he remain so ignorant ?? <grin> > Shark feeding victim? Krishna Thompson sues Our Lucaya resort for $25 > million Saw that elsewhere. Greedy jerk should know that you swim in the ocean you might get bit. <http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?click_id=22&art_id=qw107029728060B226&set_id=1> |
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