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Scuba Forum / General / December 2003Generous, But
http://www.peterhughes.com/new_page_3.htm I'm not too sure about this part: "In the event any Dancer Fleet vessel is within the predicted track of any officially named Hurricane or Tropical Storm, (as predicted by NOAA) all passengers will be disembarked from the vessel in question at least twelve [12] hours prior to the predicted landfall of the Hurricane or Tropical Storm. Passengers will be accommodated ashore, at the discretion of the captain and at the expense of Peter Hughes Diving, Inc., at a place determined to be a safe haven depending upon location in question. " In some cases, it might be rather hard to find a place on shore to put the passengers, no matter who is paying. Nice intentions, but it might be a plan that can't be executed. Dan Bracuk If at first you don't succeed, you run the risk of failure. The Best of rec.scuba http://www.pathcom.com/~bracuk/RecScuba/ > http://www.peterhughes.com/new_page_3.htm > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > the passengers, no matter who is paying. Nice intentions, but it > might be a plan that can't be executed. That's really eerie - hope it never happens! > > http://www.peterhughes.com/new_page_3.htm > > I'm not too sure about this part: [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > the passengers, no matter who is paying. Nice intentions, but it > > might be a plan that can't be executed. > That's really eerie - hope it never happens! It already did happen, Joe. You didn't hear about it ?? It seems that Peter Hughes Diving Inc killed over a dozen ppl on a liveaboard off of Belize due to poor decision-making. babette7401@hotmail.com (Salty) pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: :It already did happen, Joe. You didn't hear about it ?? It seems :that Peter Hughes Diving Inc killed over a dozen ppl on a liveaboard :off of Belize due to poor decision-making. Peter Hughes Inc didn't kill anyone. There was a hurricane, things didn't work out, and some people died. Dan Bracuk If at first you don't succeed, you run the risk of failure. The Best of rec.scuba http://www.pathcom.com/~bracuk/RecScuba/ > babette7401@hotmail.com (Salty) pounded away at his keyboard resulting > in: [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Peter Hughes Inc didn't kill anyone. There was a hurricane, things > didn't work out, and some people died. Point well taken that Peter Hughes didn't kill anyone - however poor decisions by those hired by his company, made some poor decisions in keeping the crew and passengers safe. I wasn't there so it is hard for any of us to decide what better they could have done BTW what does CTHD stand 4? Joe English <joeenglish@accessusn.net> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: :BTW what does CTHD stand 4? Certified Tim Horton's Diver. See Brian Nadwidny if you want to take the course. Dan Bracuk If at first you don't succeed, you run the risk of failure. The Best of rec.scuba http://www.pathcom.com/~bracuk/RecScuba/ > Joe English <joeenglish@accessusn.net> pounded away at his keyboard > resulting in: [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > See Brian Nadwidny if you want to take the course. Is it Hard? Do I have to study? Are there materials to buy? (This is not the HIV thread!) >> Joe English <joeenglish@accessusn.net> pounded away at his keyboard >> resulting in: [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >Is it Hard? Do I have to study? Are there materials to buy? >(This is not the HIV thread!) You had me worried for a second. No, Timbits are not hard. They used to be good until Wendy's partly cooked them, then froze them, and then transported them to Tim's. Confused now? With Wendy involved, maybe it is the HIV thread. --- Mike from Ottawa Joe English <joeenglish@accessusn.net> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: :Is it Hard? Do I have to study? Are there materials to buy? :(This is not the HIV thread!) It is probably very hard for Americans, unless they are willing to travel. You will have to ask Brian if there is a Krispy Kreme waiver. Dan Bracuk If at first you don't succeed, you run the risk of failure. The Best of rec.scuba http://www.pathcom.com/~bracuk/RecScuba/ > Joe English <joeenglish@accessusn.net> pounded away at his keyboard > resulting in: [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > It is probably very hard for Americans, unless they are willing to > travel. You will have to ask Brian if there is a Krispy Kreme waiver. Krispy Kreme - hmmmmm - can't eat them anymore - too much sugar (the American Staple) > Krispy Kreme - hmmmmm - can't eat them anymore - too much sugar (the > American Staple) Whats the English staple? Roast Beef of Old England? rhys >>Krispy Kreme - hmmmmm - can't eat them anymore - too much sugar (the >>American Staple) > > Whats the English staple? > > Roast Beef of Old England? Beef, beer, chicken, beer, pork, beer, vodka Veni Vidi Vici - just not in that order! > rhys - however poor > decisions by those hired by his company, made some poor decisions in > keeping the crew and passengers safe. I wasn't there so it is hard for > any of us to decide what better they could have done The passengers made a poor decision to, if you go by the result. If only we all had a crystal ball, our lives would be so different. > - however poor > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > If only we all had a crystal ball, our lives would be so different. I agree but when on a ship/boat the captains are in charge, trained for emergencies and one generally follows the instructions - I probably would have - I could be dead. Better emergency procedures should have been followed. > I agree but when on a ship/boat the captains are in charge, trained for > emergencies and one generally follows the instructions - I probably > would have - I could be dead. Better emergency procedures should have > been followed. Then how come everyone on the other boat is still alive? And if one just generally follows instructions, that too is part of personal decision. > > I agree but when on a ship/boat the captains are in charge, trained for > > emergencies and one generally follows the instructions - I probably [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Then how come everyone on the other boat is still alive? And if one just > generally follows instructions, that too is part of personal decision. Everyone on the Aggressor boat is still alive because of three things 1. Their crew knew how to properly tie lines to a fixed dock. 2. Their crew knew how to properly maintain lines that were tied to a fixed dock. 3. Lots of luck. Re: personal decision, how did you respond when told what to do on Splashdown ?? You either followed like a sheep or else you questioned some and took your time, or you questioned alot and were a PAI, or you rebelled and didn't make the dive like MHK and his bud. :) Salty, CID > > > I agree but when on a ship/boat the captains are in charge, trained for > > > emergencies and one generally follows the instructions - I probably [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > fixed dock. > 3. Lots of luck. Also as I understand it, they were on a smaller boat that had a lower shillohette, giving less area for the wind to play with. rhys > Also as I understand it, they were on a smaller boat that had a lower > shillohette, giving less area for the wind to play with. I've heard this too, as well as hearing that Hughes had some unsafe modifications made to the boat. I don't think we'll find out though. > > Also as I understand it, they were on a smaller boat that had a lower > > shillohette, giving less area for the wind to play with. > > I've heard this too, as well as hearing that Hughes had some unsafe > modifications made to the boat. I don't think we'll find out though. It was a modified crew boat. The modifications essentially were an expansion of passenger area/cabins to make it comfy for clients who are not oil rig workers being ferried out to the platform. The net result is that it had a lot more 'sail area' that what is normal for a boat of its draft, which IIRC, was only 5-6ft. This is not the makings of a true bluewater boat. FWIW, I've been on a similar PH boat at one point, and found that it was running with a ~15 degree list due to just a ~20 knot crosswind. -hh > Everyone on the Aggressor boat is still alive because of three things > : > 1. Their crew knew how to properly tie lines to a fixed dock. > 2. Their crew knew how to properly maintain lines that were tied to a > fixed dock. > 3. Lots of luck. And the 3's have it. > Re: personal decision, how did you respond when told what to do on > Splashdown ?? You either followed like a sheep or else you questioned > some and took your time, or you questioned alot and were a PAI, or you > rebelled and didn't make the dive like MHK and his bud. LOL, I don't know what MHK's problem was but I followed along like a sheep most of the time, unless I was off on my own. And there was no wind blowing at all. Had there been a hurricane coming, I may very well have found myself in a situation that would have required me to take more personal responsibility for my wellbeing. When I chose to say in Cozumel when Hurricane Mitch was coming, I was very well aware, that if things went the wrong way, I'd have no one NO ONE to blame but myself. It was my decision and mine alone to stay. I could have left like all the other 10,000+ sheep that left the Yucatan at the time. > LOL, I don't know what MHK's problem was but I followed along like a sheep > most of the time, unless I was off on my own. And there was no wind blowing > at all. Had there been a hurricane coming, I may very well have found > myself in a situation that would have required me to take more personal > responsibility for my wellbeing. This, of course, assumes that you knew the hurricane was coming. As I recall, the passengers did not know they were about to be hit by the storm until they were. "Lee Bell" <leebell@ix.remove.netcom.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: :This, of course, assumes that you knew the hurricane was coming. As I :recall, the passengers did not know they were about to be hit by the storm :until they were. The storm came early in their cruise. Chances are that the possibility was apparent while they were still in the states. Dan Bracuk If at first you don't succeed, you run the risk of failure. The Best of rec.scuba http://www.pathcom.com/~bracuk/RecScuba/ <snipping a bit> > LOL, I don't know what MHK's problem was but I knew that you would smile at that. > I followed along like a sheep > most of the time, unless I was off on my own. And there was no wind blowing > at all. Had there been a hurricane coming, I may very well have found > myself in a situation that would have required me to take more personal > responsibility for my wellbeing. Agreed. > When I chose to say in Cozumel when Hurricane Mitch was coming, I was very > well aware, that if things went the wrong way, I'd have no one NO ONE to > blame but myself. It was my decision and mine alone to stay. I could have > left like all the other 10,000+ sheep that left the Yucatan at the time. What was it that made you choose to stay ?? > > I agree but when on a ship/boat the captains are in charge, trained for > > emergencies and one generally follows the instructions - I probably [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Then how come everyone on the other boat is still alive? And if one just > generally follows instructions, that too is part of personal decision. Perhaps because the sum of all decisions made by the other captains were better. Perhaps because they, and/or their boat, were better prepared to deal with the effects of the storm. Perhaps they were equally at risk but were just lucky. Generally, I agree that abiding by a captain's decisions is, in itself, a personal decision. On the other hand, that personal decision is strongly affected by the amount of information you have on which to base your judgement. The passengers, in this case, did not have a lot of information and, in fact, were provided some information about options that we now know was, at best, incorrect, at worst, intentionally false. We know of one crew member who, believing she knew better, lost her job as a result of getting off that boat . . . and lived to tell about it later. I also know, from first hand accounts, that passengers were not instructed to put on life vests and that some of those that died as well as some of those that lived, were in their below deck cabins when the boat capsized. I would have expected them to be together and better prepared for the possibility of having to abandon the boat during the storm. Most boaters I know think that the boat should have fled from the storm rather than staying in the area until the only option for the vessel was to anchor/tie up in a sheltered harbor. Most boaters I know also think that the passengers and crew should have evacuated the boat, seeking shelter on land. All boaters I know think that the boat should have been secured better. The fact that lines broke loose and the boat capsized is pretty conclusive evidence that preparations were not adequate. Lee >>>http://www.peterhughes.com/new_page_3.htm >>>I'm not too sure about this part: [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > that Peter Hughes Diving Inc killed over a dozen ppl on a liveaboard > off of Belize due to poor decision-making. Yes, I knew it happened - it was very disturbing since I had gone to Belize earlier in the year on the Nekton with our local dive club. It is a wonder that some of the liveaboards don't kill more people. I don't know what happened aboard the PH Boat - I thin there was another boat right next to them - and it seemed they were far enough inland on a river to avoid the punishing surf. I think the most disturbing was PH's indifference to the poor decisions and unnecessary death injury. Sorry if I sounded unaware of the incident - I was being my usual smart a.s self. Just came back from a deer hunting trip and never had the safety off. Sat in the woods for two days in the wind, rain, and snow! > >>>http://www.peterhughes.com/new_page_3.htm > >>>I'm not too sure about this part: [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > river to avoid the punishing surf. I think the most disturbing was PH's > indifference to the poor decisions and unnecessary death injury. Yes. Well... enough has been said about this topic and so I'm not wanting to go there and talk about it again. :( > Sorry if I sounded unaware of the incident - I was being my usual smart > a.s self. Just came back from a deer hunting trip and never had the > safety off. Sat in the woods for two days in the wind, rain, and snow! Hey... were you the guy that was in the tree stand in the big oak to the left of my driveway ??!! :) I don't know where ya live but I'm in PA, the state that bags the most deer out of the entire USA. I know what it's like. They close the local schools here for deer season. It's a big festival. And I wear a bright orange vinyl with a hood over my coat during these times to walk my dogs thru my 10 acres. Yes indeeed... I know what you went thru !! > Hey... were you the guy that was in the tree stand in the big oak to > the left of my driveway ??!! :) I don't know where ya live but I'm [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > over my coat during these times to walk my dogs thru my 10 acres. Yes > indeeed... I know what you went thru !! No hunting in S. Ill > > Hey... were you the guy that was in the tree stand in the big oak to > > the left of my driveway ??!! :) I don't know where ya live but I'm [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > No hunting in S. Ill is S. Ill the place where they killed all the wolves and wild predators and then banned hunting so the deer multiply and strip the forests bare and then die by the thousand as they have eaten all their food? Animal Protectors should be killed the same way as the animals they want to protect. conservationists know about checks and balances int he wild, sob-story protectivist dopes don't. rhys >>>Hey... were you the guy that was in the tree stand in the big oak to >>>the left of my driveway ??!! :) I don't know where ya live but I'm [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > rhys no > http://www.peterhughes.com/new_page_3.htm > > I'm not too sure about this part: > > Nice intentions, but it > might be a plan that can't be executed. Can't execute the plan? No problem, execute the passengers. Not to be pessimistic, but you don't often find road-kill on the diving highway. > http://www.peterhughes.com/new_page_3.htm > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > the passengers, no matter who is paying. Nice intentions, but it > might be a plan that can't be executed. I notice the absence of stating when vessel will leave where its at, so as to try to make it back to shore by "LF minus 12 hours". For example, if you're 6 hours out, its probably going to take you 8-10 hours in rougher seas. So if you want to be back in by "LF minus 12", you really had to have made the decision to go at "LF minus 20" or more. It takes time to move a ship. The first time this policy is applied, I'd expect them to fail to meet their self-imposed 12 hour goal. In other items on this thread, the entire debate about the Captain's reponsibility has forgotten at least one other element: he leads by example regardless of if he likes it or not. I've personally seen this happen at a land-based resort riding out a hurricane: the resort's hotel manager chose a large dining room with glass doors that had not been boarded over as his central location where he could "keep an eye on things". Because it was a public room, the result was that most of the guests gravitated there as well. They weren't sent away, so naturally after awhile, various forms of self-entertainment ensued, including booze. Those of us who rode out the storm while staying away from both alcohol and glass windows throughout were the distinct minority, and were later accused of being "anti-social". -hh |
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