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Scuba Forum / General / August 2006Diving and Exercise Question
I'm doing my PADI open water diving certification a week after I return from Masters Nationals (http://usaplpowerlifting.com/mastersnationals/). Anywho, I've been reading that heavy exercise can cause problems with diving and make it easier to get the bends. I train heavy 3-4 times per week and was wondering what everyone's opinion on this subject is. Do I need to take any extra precautions? TIA > I'm doing my PADI open water diving certification a week after I > return from Masters Nationals...I train heavy 3-4 times per week and was > wondering what everyone's opinion on this subject is. Do I need to > take any extra precautions? In general, it probably would be considered to be compatible activities if sufficient rest is taken between them (both ways). For example, you don't want to be dehydrated, have depleted electroylges, lactic acid accumulation, etc, etc, from a lift practice before going to get wet. How much downtime is appropriate depends on a lot of factors. For exercise after diving, the general risk of DCS comes from the residual nitrogen which is occupying part of your bloodstream and is trying to get out ("offgas"). As such, the risk is highest immediately after the dive and it declines to effectively zero as the residual nitrogen excess goes to effectively zero (which is an asymptotic function). I would say that as a general rule of thumb, six (6) halftimes should be sufficient mitigate any significant risk, since that predicts that (1 - .50^6) = 98.4% should have offgassed. The catch here is which is the "controlling" theoretical compartment's halftime to use. For the generic PADI OW-I novice using the PADI RDP ... which effectively prohibits decompression diving ... that table is based on a 60 minute controlling compartiment IIRC, so six halftimes = 6 hours, and this is probably reasonable for generic, quasi-lightweight repetitive profiles. For multi-level, deco and more repetitive profiles, I'd be inclined to use the USN Dive Table's 120 minute controlling compartment. Times six halftimes equals 12 hours. However, a likely reasonable compromise to any of this would be to utilize one's dive computer's "Time to Fly" countdown as the guide, depending on how the individual manufacturer chose to incorporate it. -hh >> I'm doing my PADI open water diving certification a week after I >> return from Masters Nationals...I train heavy 3-4 times per week and was [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] >utilize one's dive computer's "Time to Fly" countdown as the guide, >depending on how the individual manufacturer chose to incorporate it. Thanks for the info. I train MWF in the late afternoon with a light workout on Sunday. If I dive on T TH and weekends I should never have a problem. I'd probably skip my Sunday workout if I dove that day unless I was training for a meet. In which case, I doubt I'd be doing much diving. > I'm doing my PADI open water diving certification a week after I > return from Masters Nationals [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > wondering what everyone's opinion on this subject is. Do I need to > take any extra precautions? > TIA You might check out the site <http://www.divefitness.com/> . Cameron Martz is very willing to answer questions John > Anywho, I've been reading that heavy exercise can cause problems with > diving and make it easier to get the bends. I > train heavy 3-4 times per week and was wondering what everyone's opinion > on this subject is. Do I need to > take any extra precautions? Normally, it's heavy exercise after diving, when nitrogen levels are at their highest, that is considered a risk. Unless you're planning on doing a lot of diving and immediately working out, I doubt you'll have much trouble. Lee >> Anywho, I've been reading that heavy exercise can cause problems with >> diving and make it easier to get the bends. I [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >their highest, that is considered a risk. Unless you're planning on doing a >lot of diving and immediately working out, I doubt you'll have much trouble. Thanks. I'm sure it would be at least 24 hours after a dive that I would do any heavy lifting. > Thanks. I'm sure it would be at least 24 hours after a dive that I > would do any heavy lifting. Studies have shown that even extreme reps of 12, 16, or even 24-oz curls immediately after diving do not increase the chance of DCS... <burp> >Thanks. I'm sure it would be at least 24 hours after a dive that I >would do any heavy lifting. Who lugs your tanks? <G> >>Thanks. I'm sure it would be at least 24 hours after a dive that I >>would do any heavy lifting. > Who lugs your tanks? <G> You consider lifting tanks to be "heavy lifting? Lee >> Who lugs your tanks? <G> > > You consider lifting tanks to be "heavy lifting? I do sometimes. :-D Curtis >You consider lifting tanks to be "heavy lifting? > >Lee OK, not exactly power lifting, but by the time we get all the tanks, fish, gear, etc., off the boat and into the truck, it adds up to a fair amount of exercise, especially when it's about ninety-something. Come to think of it; it can be a fair amount of exercise getting back in the boat sometimes. <G> > OK, not exactly power lifting, but by the time we get all the tanks, > fish, gear, etc., off the boat and into the truck, it adds up to a > fair amount of exercise, especially when it's about ninety-something. Hell, all those 12, 16, and 24 oz curls add up to a lot of weight after awhile... >Hell, all those 12, 16, and 24 oz curls add up to a lot of weight after >awhile... Yeah well, that too. <G> > Yeah well, that too. <G> Kinda miss being able to get Abita TurboDog at the local Wal-Mart only 5 minutes from my house... Any idea how they came out after Katrina? -- N581 -- AA5A -- AXH http://www.narcosis-republic.us >> Yeah well, that too. <G> > >Kinda miss being able to get Abita TurboDog at the local Wal-Mart only >5 minutes from my house... Any idea how they came out after Katrina? I think they did OK. I have a steady supply of Abita Amber here in Gonzales. <G> >> OK, not exactly power lifting, but by the time we get all the tanks, >> fish, gear, etc., off the boat and into the truck, it adds up to a >> fair amount of exercise, especially when it's about ninety-something. > > Hell, all those 12, 16, and 24 oz curls add up to a lot of weight after > awhile... No kidding! I've been using the 12 reps @12ozs for the boat ride home for years.......it's added up to about a deuce and a quarter so far........ LD. >>You consider lifting tanks to be "heavy lifting? >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >Come to think of it; it can be a fair amount of exercise getting back >in the boat sometimes. <G> That sounds more like cardio. Powerlifters lift extremely heavy weights for only a few reps. We rarely go over 5 reps in training and that would generally be off season training. But, 5 sets of 5 does generally get one quite winded...and sore the following day which is more of what I was concerned about (the microscopic tears to the fascia that cause the soreness). When I'm going heavy preparing for a meet, I'll go over 500 pounds for singles in the squat but I won't get sore the following day. It's the reps that make one sore. I want him for my dive buddy, he would never even notice I slipped all my weights and tanks into his dive bag! Al Bottoms Up Divers >>>You consider lifting tanks to be "heavy lifting? >>> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > meet, I'll go over 500 pounds for singles in the squat but I won't get > sore the following day. It's the reps that make one sore. > I want him for my dive buddy, he would never even notice I slipped all my > weights and tanks into his dive bag! That's what you say now....but guess who's probably going to run low on air first? :-) -hh >> I want him for my dive buddy, he would never even notice I slipped all my >> weights and tanks into his dive bag! > >That's what you say now....but guess who's probably going to run low on >air first? :-) My resting heart rate is quite low...50 bpm. Plus, I have a higher work capacity than normal so I would think I would use less air. But, I could be all wet. > >That's what you say now....but guess who's probably going to > >run low on air first? :-) > > > My resting heart rate is quite low...50 bpm. Plus, I have a higher > work capacity than normal so I would think I would use less air. As a rule of thumb, women are considered to have lower air consumption rates. This generally tracks to their lower basal metabolic rate because they tend to be physically smaller than men. For any individual, fitness of course helps, as does too practice and thermal management (not getting chilled), but achieving a lower air consumption is driven by a body's lower limits and thus, your basal metabolic (and thus respiratory) rates. Unless you're willing to go on a diet to lose 50-75lbs, there's probably not all that much else you can do about it. If you recall the story of the Apollo 13 accident, the reason why NASA encouraged the Astronauts to sleep so much was because one is closer to your basal metabolism minimum consumption when one is asleep. As such, the "perfect dive" from a minimizing of air consumption standpoint is one in which you're so relaxed such that you're proverbially almost ready to fall asleep <g>. You'll be doing pretty well when you count breaths and get below 12 per minute (1 per 5 seconds). > But, I could be all wet. Let's hope so ... afterall, we can't have fun diving without getting a little water on us :-) -hh >> >That's what you say now....but guess who's probably going to >> >run low on air first? :-) [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >on a diet to lose 50-75lbs, there's probably not all that much else you >can do about it. I used to be an airhog. Now that I'm older and, um, well you know, my air consumption is way down. All it takes is time to learn how to be efficient with everything you do and, as you say, manage your personal environment. >If you recall the story of the Apollo 13 accident, the reason why NASA >encouraged the Astronauts to sleep so much was because one is closer to [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >ready to fall asleep <g>. You'll be doing pretty well when you count >breaths and get below 12 per minute (1 per 5 seconds). When I was teaching heavily (out at the lake every other weekend with a class) and had plenty of DMs (one for every buddy pair) I used to drop down to the platform, send the DMs out for their "tour" and wrap a leg around the down line and take a nap. I think I'm down to 12 a minute. Somewhere in that range. I don't count, I just do. I know that Lance Armstrong's resting breathing rate is in the 5 to 6 per minute range, but that boy has real aerobic capacity. >> But, I could be all wet. > >Let's hope so ... afterall, we can't have fun diving without getting a >little water on us :-) > >-hh  Signaturedillon I didn't climb to the top of the food chain to become a vegetarian. >> I want him for my dive buddy, he would never even notice I slipped all my >> weights and tanks into his dive bag! > >That's what you say now....but guess who's probably going to run low on >air first? :-) After doing my classroom/pool training this weekend, I discovered I go through a helluva lot of air compared to the skinny guys and the one chic. > After doing my classroom/pool training this weekend, I discovered I go > through a helluva lot of air compared to the skinny guys and the one > chic. Your comfort in the water is a far more significant factor than your size, weight or sex. Lee >> After doing my classroom/pool training this weekend, I discovered I go >> through a helluva lot of air compared to the skinny guys and the one >> chic. > >Your comfort in the water is a far more significant factor than your size, >weight or sex. I'm extremely comfortable in the water. I live in Minnesota:-) Anywho, I've snorkeled dozens of times and do a lot of fishing and camping and I usually always swim in those circumstances and have for years. My instructor says that muscle mass has a lot to do with the amount of air one uses. At 5'9" and 232 pounds with about 18% bodyfat, I have a lot of muscle mass to fuel. Oh, and, one kid used 400 psi all day today. He was about 110 pounds dripping wet. > I'm extremely comfortable in the water. I live in Minnesota:-) > Anywho, I've snorkeled dozens of times and do a lot of fishing and > camping and I usually always swim in those circumstances and have for > years. That's not the kind of comfortable I mean, but since you brought it up, I was born and raised in Florida, have never lived more than a half an hour from the Atlantic Ocean. I had a pool most of my life, currently live on a lake, have had my own boat since I was 6, was a water safety instructor and lifeguard for years and have been actively diving since 1962. Your experience is fine, but comparatively, is somewhat limited. What I'm talking about is how relaxed you are under the water. I know people quite a bit larger than I am and those who are quite a bit smaller who have consumption comparable to mine and those that use a whole lot more gas. The amount of gas you use in a dive is directly related to the amount of energy you expend. Some is related to resistance, which does vary with size. More, however, is related to how well you are trimmed, how relaxed your movements are and how little tension you feel while submerged. > My instructor says that muscle mass has a lot to do with the amount of > air one uses. At 5'9" and 232 pounds with about 18% bodyfat, I have a > lot of muscle mass to fuel. Oh, and, one kid used 400 psi all day > today. He was about 110 pounds dripping wet. Your instructor's opinion is a bit suspect. Do you realize that he's saying that the more fit your are, the less efficient your body operates? That should set off some mental alarms. At 5'8 and close to 200 lbs, I'm not all that different from you and I don't think anyone I've ever dove with has consistently outlasted me. Don't take my word for it. Ask some of the people in this group that have dove with me. Some of them, by the way, have consumption rates very close to mine. Without exception, those that do, are the most relaxed divers you'll ever meet. Chose to believe that your higher consumption is a result of your size if you like. I can think of no better way to ensure you don't improve. Lee >> I'm extremely comfortable in the water. I live in Minnesota:-) >> Anywho, I've snorkeled dozens of times and do a lot of fishing and [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >size. More, however, is related to how well you are trimmed, how relaxed >your movements are and how little tension you feel while submerged. I was very relaxed under water and I knew what you were talking about. The amount of energy one expends can very greatly in people. I would venture to guess that my resting metabolic rate is double that of a normal woman. >> My instructor says that muscle mass has a lot to do with the amount of >> air one uses. At 5'9" and 232 pounds with about 18% bodyfat, I have a [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >that the more fit your are, the less efficient your body operates? That >should set off some mental alarms. Muscle tissue is very "metabolic". It requires a lot of oxygen and nutrition where as fat requires next to nothing. Fat is not metabolically active. Bone requires an amount in between. I also eat over 5000 Kcalories/day whereas a normal, active male will only eat around 3000 Kcalories/day. Doesn't that set off any mental alarms? >At 5'8 and close to 200 lbs, I'm not all that different from you and I don't >think anyone I've ever dove with has consistently outlasted me. Don't take >my word for it. Ask some of the people in this group that have dove with >me. Some of them, by the way, have consumption rates very close to mine. >Without exception, those that do, are the most relaxed divers you'll ever >meet. What is your bodyfat percentage? Fat is not metabolically active. Let's say we throw another 20 pounds of fat on you and we properly weight you so that you are neutrally buoyant. You should expend exactly 0 more energy under the water. If we add 20 pounds of muscle instead, you would consume considerably more energy due to your body's need to feed those muscles. I'm sure your local community college has a course on sports physiology if you would like more information on this subject. >Chose to believe that your higher consumption is a result of your size if >you like. I can think of no better way to ensure you don't improve. It was also a pool training dive. My buddy and I did more of the skills than the rest (i.e. buddy breathing we made two laps on my octopus and an accent and one lap on his + an accent), IMO, and we did our free swimming in the deep end of the pool the whole time so that could account for more air used. But, like I mentioned with the skinny kid, when everyone else (normal adult males) had used 1000-1500 psi, he only used 400 psi. The chic only used 600 psi. > The amount of energy one expends can very greatly in people. I would > venture to guess that my resting metabolic rate is double that of a > normal woman. Why would you assume that? Are you in such terrible shape that even resting, your metabolic rate is exceptionally high? > Muscle tissue is very "metabolic". It requires a lot of oxygen and > nutrition . . . Only when active. > What is your bodyfat percentage? Don't know. It's higher than I'd like, lower than many. The fact is, the most fit diver I have known about, with almost zero body fat and with at least, if not more muscle tissue as you or I have, has one of the lowest consumption rates of anyone I know of. His name is George Irvine III. Perhaps you've heard of him. Lee > The fact is, the most fit diver I have known about, with almost zero body > fat and with at least, if not more muscle tissue as you or I have, has one > of the lowest consumption rates of anyone I know of. His name is George > Irvine III. Lee, I get the impression from following this thread that John doesn't engage in the kind of aerobic regime that George did. He could be in terrible aerobic shape, which could be the cause of larger air consumption. SignatureArt >> The fact is, the most fit diver I have known about, with almost zero >> body >> fat and with at least, if not more muscle tissue as you or I have, has >> one >> of the lowest consumption rates of anyone I know of. His name is George >> Irvine III. > I get the impression from following this thread that John doesn't engage > in > the kind of aerobic regime that George did. He could be in terrible > aerobic > shape, which could be the cause of larger air consumption. I hope, and trust that George still does. The point, however, was not why George has low gas consumption but, rather, that the reason John doesn't is not his muscle mass or size, but other factors that he has much more control over. BTW, I'm in poor aerobic shape myself. It's only a factor in my consumption when I attempt sustained effort, swimming against a strong current, for example. Then it makes a big difference. Until I get back in the shape I prefer, I'll deal with that by not swimming against strong currents. 8^)) My best guess is that John's instructor blamed it on his muscle mass either because he didn't know any better or because he didn't want to spend the time (without additional compensation) to teach John better. Either way, until John realizes the error of the information he has been provided, he's got an all too easy excuse that will keep him from achieving something I think he would prefer. Lee >>> The fact is, the most fit diver I have known about, with almost zero >>> body [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >the shape I prefer, I'll deal with that by not swimming against strong >currents. 8^)) I'll guarantee you I'm in better aerobic shape than you. I'll also guarantee you I'm exponentially in better anaerobic shape than you. I think you are having a hard time understanding the concept of basal metabolic rate. >My best guess is that John's instructor blamed it on his muscle mass either >because he didn't know any better or because he didn't want to spend the >time (without additional compensation) to teach John better. Either way, >until John realizes the error of the information he has been provided, he's >got an all too easy excuse that will keep him from achieving something I >think he would prefer. Hey dumbfuck, my instructor said I did great and said the whole class did great with our air consumption. He said we should have been out air at the end of that session. > I'll guarantee you I'm in better aerobic shape than you. I'll also > guarantee you I'm exponentially in better anaerobic shape than you. Big deal. I'm the one that admited I'm not in the kind of shape I would prefer. > I think you are having a hard time understanding the concept of basal > metabolic rate. I positive that you're having a hard time understanding the concept of low gas consumption. I have it, you don't. Other muscular, fit, people have it. You don't. They found a way. I tried to share it with you. You're making excuses. > Hey dumbfuck, my instructor said I did great and said the whole class > did great with our air consumption. He said we should have been out > air at the end of that session. Hey dumbfuck. You're the newbie, I'm the experienced diver. There's a good chance I've been diving longer than your instructor chum has been alive. You're the one with lousy consumption. I'm the one with good consumption. You're the one complaining. I'm the one trying to help. SAC ranges from a low of about .25 cubic feet to an average around .33 cubic feet a minute to a high, under sustained load, of about .5 cubic feet a minute. Still think you're doing great? You like your consumption rate, great. You want to learn to do better, open you mind a bit. Your choice. Lee >> I'll guarantee you I'm in better aerobic shape than you. I'll also >> guarantee you I'm exponentially in better anaerobic shape than you. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >it. You don't. They found a way. I tried to share it with you. You're >making excuses. No, dumbass. Others have pointed out that muscle mass DOES indeed require more oxygen. "'A large diver will consume more oxygen and produce more carbon dioxide because of the increased amount of muscle tissue. A small diver has an advantage in gas consumption because of a smaller muscle mass.' -- Fred Bove, M.D., PhD" http://www.skin-diver.com/departments/scubamed/feb01_air.asp?theID=1418 >> Hey dumbfuck, my instructor said I did great and said the whole class >> did great with our air consumption. He said we should have been out [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >low of about .25 cubic feet to an average around .33 cubic feet a minute to >a high, under sustained load, of about .5 cubic feet a minute. God you are a stupid motherf..ker with no reading comprehension. I never made one complaint. It was an observation. You, OTOH, are too stupid to realize that someone with a lot of muscle mass is going to have a much higher BMR than someone who doesn't and is going to use more oxygen. Period! Also, I wasn't asking for any help. >Still think you're doing great? Yes, for my second pool dive with scuba equipment. >You like your consumption rate, great. You want to learn to do better, open >you mind a bit. Your choice. Hey a.shole, I haven't even been in the open water yet with scuba gear. Go back and reread this thread and perhaps you'll realize that: 1. I made an observation about muscle mass and air consumption that I observed over the weekend and also that someone else had a cite regarding the veracity of my statements. 2. I never asked for any advice on how to lower my air consumption. 3. You made the false statement that muscle tissue only requires a lot of oxygen and nutrition "only when active". 4. You are reinforcing the widely held opinion that Floridians are some of the dumbest motherf..kers on the planet. > Hey a.shole, I haven't even been in the open water yet with scuba > gear. Yet you're here telling everyone how things work. Let us know when your SAC reaches the .35 cubic feet per minute range and we'll start listening. Lee >> Hey a.shole, I haven't even been in the open water yet with scuba >> gear. > >Yet you're here telling everyone how things work. I certainly know far more about human physiology than you. >Let us know when your SAC reaches the .35 cubic feet per minute range and >we'll start listening. Are you still sticking to your belief that muscle is only metabolically active when the muscle itself "is active"? > Are you still sticking to your belief that muscle is only > metabolically active when the muscle itself "is active"? John, Check out this website: http://www.divefitness.com I have a great deal of respect for Cameron. He's responsible for the training regimen used by the top divers of the WKPP (http://www.wkpp.org - note that this website seems to be seriously out of date now). Those guys do some very serious dives, and being in good shape is more than merely important for them. (The previously mentioned George Irvine III was this group's director for a while.) Why don't you ask Cameron about this, and report back? I'd ask, but I think you are much better informed in this area than I am, and you'd be able to carry out an intelligent discourse with him. I'm curious to know what he has to say. SignatureArt >> Are you still sticking to your belief that muscle is only >> metabolically active when the muscle itself "is active"? > >John, > >Check out this website: http://www.divefitness.com I did. He offers a basic fitness routine geared toward divers which, IMO, is good. I happened to be a serious (well, maybe that's a stretch) strength athlete who is getting into diving. >I have a great deal of respect for Cameron. He's responsible for the training >regimen used by the top divers of the WKPP (http://www.wkpp.org - note that [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >I'm curious to know what he has to say. Feel free to ask him yourself. I don't need to ask anyone about BMR as it's considered basic physiology. I'm interested in what he has to say too so let me know. > Feel free to ask him yourself. I don't need to ask anyone about BMR as > it's considered basic physiology. I'm interested in what he has to say too > so let me know. You don't seem interested. You already know all about it, after all, its basic physiology. Out of curiosity, and to support Cameron, I bought the book. I won't quote it here, since you could buy it, too. After all, its only a few bucks. But then, you probably won't, since you're way past basic physiology now. And you're a serious athlete, and this book is targeted to people who aren't. Have a look at the sidebar on page page 24. SignatureArt > I certainly know far more about human physiology than you. and almost nothing about diving, which, in case you haven't noticed, is the subject of this thread. >>Let us know when your SAC reaches the .35 cubic feet per minute range and >>we'll start listening. > Are you still sticking to your belief that muscle is only > metabolically active when the muscle itself "is active"? What I'm doing is challenging you to share and compare your consumption rate before you continue to make a fool out of yourself on a topic you're so clearly unqualified to discuss. How about it smart guy, what's the SAC? Lee > > I certainly know far more about human physiology than you. > > and almost nothing about diving, which, in case you haven't noticed, is the > subject of this thread. The subject of this thread is "Diving and Exercise Question" and you have demostrated you know two things about the latter, jack and sh.t. > >>Let us know when your SAC reaches the .35 cubic feet per minute range and > >>we'll start listening. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > before you continue to make a fool out of yourself on a topic you're so > clearly unqualified to discuss. Okay, genius, how would I know my consumption rate when one of the skills I did was swim with my buddy while he was breathing from my octo. Another was breathing from a free flowing regulator. So, how would one determine their air consumption rate under those circumstances? Now, back to the original question for you, do you still believe that muscle is only metabolically active when the muscle itself is active? > How about it smart guy, what's the SAC? Like I said, I no idea what my surface air consumption is. But I do know that it is much higher that the 110 stick figure that was doing his confined dives this past weekend with us. > > > I certainly know far more about human physiology than you. > > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > The subject of this thread is "Diving and Exercise Question" and you > have demostrated you know two things about the latter, jack and sh.t. While your metabolic rate becomes important as you approach your ideal underwater air consumption, it is normally (especially for beginners) a much lesser consideration than comfort in the water and ease with the skills. I've been diving sporadically for about 4 years now and I've noticed a significant decrease in my consumption. I'm a fatty, but I'm in surprisingly good shape for my weight and am extremely comfortable in the water (with a background similar to Lee's). That doesn't change the fact that my consumption has gotten considerably better as I have become more familiar with my underwater abilities. I'd imagine that you will find the same thing happens for you. If not, at least the testing will be fun. > While your metabolic rate becomes important as you approach your ideal > underwater air consumption, it is normally (especially for beginners) a [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > familiar with my underwater abilities. I'd imagine that you will find the > same thing happens for you. If not, at least the testing will be fun. Don't confuse him with facts. > > > > I certainly know far more about human physiology than you. > > > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > familiar with my underwater abilities. I'd imagine that you will find the > same thing happens for you. If not, at least the testing will be fun. I'm certain that my consumption will get better with more experience. That has nothing to do with my observation about how the people with the most amount of muscle mass in my training class used the most oxygen. >> > > > I certainly know far more about human physiology than you. >> > > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > the most amount of muscle mass in my training class used the most > oxygen. My, what a limited sample to base your expert observations on. You have how may people to compare? Given EQUAL training, experiance and comfort level, I would expect a larger body mass to produce more air consumption than smaller. However, in the real world, all things are NOT equal and there are many other factors to consider. Even a SAC rate in a controlled envirovent is not going to be accurate. Too bad you already know everything about diving--in a pool anyway. Regards, Dan >>> > > > I certainly know far more about human physiology than you. >>> > > [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > accurate. Too bad you already know everything about diving--in a pool > anyway. And on Oxygen, yet. > Regards, Dan >>>> > > > I certainly know far more about human physiology than you. >>>> > > [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > > And on Oxygen, yet. Hey dumbass, are you saying your body uses the nitrogen in the air you breathe? >>>> I'm certain that my consumption will get better with more experience. >>>> That has nothing to do with my observation about how the people with [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Hey dumbass, are you saying your body uses the nitrogen in the air you > breathe? No, Dumbass. But you -do- breathe it. SignaturePopeye "If one does as God does enough times, one will become as God is." -Dr. Hannibal Lector. www.finalprotectivefire.com >>>>> I'm certain that my consumption will get better with more experience. >>>>> That has nothing to do with my observation about how the people with [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > But you -do- breathe it. But they didn't USE the nitrogen nor the trace gases. This goes back to the point about muscle tissue being the most bio active tissue in the body except for brain tissue, of course. The bioactivity includes the consumption of nutrients, water and oxygen. > > > > > I certainly know far more about human physiology than you. > > > > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > the most amount of muscle mass in my training class used the most > oxygen. In the two open water classes I've attended (my certification class and a "refresher course" when my sister was certified), my observation was that, of the 30 or so people in each class (only 12 in the water at any given time), comfort in the water was by far the most important factor in air consumption. I would routinely surface with far more air than my less muscular classmates. Of course, I practically live in the water (or, at least I did at the time) and most of them had problems finishing the pre-diving swimming requirements. I would expect that, if your class seemed different, that you were either part of a small class or that your class was abnormal in its composition. <snip> >4. You are reinforcing the widely held opinion that Floridians are >some of the dumbest motherf..kers on the planet. Hi Don. Signaturedillon I didn't climb to the top of the food chain to become a vegetarian. >>>> The fact is, the most fit diver I have known about, with almost zero >>>>body [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > did great with our air consumption. He said we should have been out > air at the end of that session. A suggestion: You came here for help. Why insult everyone who disagrees with you? If you already know the answers, why are you here? You are a newbie. You don't even realize what you don't know yet. Ever consider that your instructor is trying to build your confidence? Signature“TANSTAAFL” ____________________________________________________________________________ "A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for them; The simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences." - Proverbs 22:3 >>>>> The fact is, the most fit diver I have known about, with almost zero >>>>>body [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] >you already know the answers, why are you here? You are a newbie. You >don't even realize what you don't know yet. Actually, I only asked for advice on strenuous exercising and how it relates to the bends. Someone made a comment that he would use far less air than someone like me. I disagreed, basing that on my low heart rate and excellent blood pressure as well as my fitness level. I then took my confined dive training this weekend and observed that the people with the largest amount of muscle mass used the most air whereas the smallest used the least, which indeed backed up that persons position. I then felt it was incumbent upon me to mentioned that what I observed did in fact, back up what he said. Do try to keep up. >Ever consider that your instructor is trying to build your confidence? Ever consider just posting once? >>>>>>The fact is, the most fit diver I have known about, with almost zero >>>>>>body [quoted text clipped - 52 lines] > > Do try to keep up. Do try not to be an a.s >>Ever consider that your instructor is trying to build your confidence? > > Ever consider just posting once? You must be new to usenet. Double postings happen. Notice that they have the same time stamp? Signature“TANSTAAFL” ____________________________________________________________________________ "A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for them; The simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences." - Proverbs 22:3 >>>>>>>The fact is, the most fit diver I have known about, with almost zero >>>>>>>body [quoted text clipped - 54 lines] > >Do try not to be an a.s Well, I spend most of my Usenet time in MFW, which is a very abrasive group. >>>Ever consider that your instructor is trying to build your confidence? >> >> Ever consider just posting once? > >You must be new to usenet. Double postings happen. >Notice that they have the same time stamp? Is thirteen years new? Of my thousands of posts, I've never once double posted. > >Do try not to be an a.s > > Well, I spend most of my Usenet time in MFW, which is a very abrasive > group. What's that stand for? Motherf***ing Wrestlers? As for abrasive groups, you'll end up doing fine here. There's a good chance you are the wimpy one here. > >Notice that they have the same time stamp? > > Is thirteen years new? Of my thousands of posts, I've never once > double posted. Uh, I don't think it is necessarily something that a person "does". Besides, maybe dazed just has the hiccups. Abrasive or not, there's no reason to be a jerk about something so minor. >> >Do try not to be an a.s >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >As for abrasive groups, you'll end up doing fine here. There's a good >chance you are the wimpy one here. Google my posts on Canada and Canadians:-) >> >Notice that they have the same time stamp? >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Besides, maybe dazed just has the hiccups. Abrasive or not, there's no >reason to be a jerk about something so minor. Well, he asked if I were new to Usenet because he said double posts happen all the time. The fact is, they don't. > >> >Do try not to be an a.s > >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Google my posts on Canada and Canadians:-) Geez, what are you another Feesh? Google that. > >Uh, I don't think it is necessarily something that a person "does". > >Besides, maybe dazed just has the hiccups. Abrasive or not, there's no > >reason to be a jerk about something so minor. > > > Well, he asked if I were new to Usenet because he said double posts > happen all the time. The fact is, they don't. I've seen it lots of times. Don't think it ever happened to me though. ;^) >> >> >Do try not to be an a.s >> >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >Geez, what are you another Feesh? Google that. I only found puppies. >> >Uh, I don't think it is necessarily something that a person "does". >> >Besides, maybe dazed just has the hiccups. Abrasive or not, there's no [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >I've seen it lots of times. Don't think it ever happened to me though. ;^) > >Uh, I don't think it is necessarily something that a person "does". > >Besides, maybe dazed just has the hiccups. Abrasive or not, there's no > >reason to be a jerk about something so minor. > > > Well, he asked if I were new to Usenet because he said double posts > happen all the time. The fact is, they don't. Actually, he said they happen (you added the "all the time" part). The fact is, they do. >>>> The fact is, the most fit diver I have known about, with almost zero >>>>body [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > did great with our air consumption. He said we should have been out > air at the end of that session. A suggestion: You came here for help. Why insult everyone who disagrees with you? If you already know the answers, why are you here? You are a newbie. You don't even realize what you don't know yet. Ever consider that your instructor is trying to build your confidence? Signature“TANSTAAFL” ____________________________________________________________________________ "A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for them; The simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences." - Proverbs 22:3 > >>> The fact is, the most fit diver I have known about, with almost zero > >>> body [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > did great with our air consumption. He said we should have been out > air at the end of that session. Thank you Mister Over-reaction. > > Hey dumbfuck, my instructor said I did great and said the whole class > > did great with our air consumption. He said we should have been out > > air at the end of that session. > > Thank you Mister Over-reaction. They can get like that when all "roided" up. > > > Hey dumbfuck, my instructor said I did great and said the whole class > > > did great with our air consumption. He said we should have been out [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > They can get like that when all "roided" up. Oh, here we go. I lift USAPL and IPF. I am subject to drug testing at all times. They can show up at my house and demand a drug test at any time. I am completely drug free and can pass any drug test. How about you? > > > > Hey dumbfuck, my instructor said I did great and said the whole class > > > > did great with our air consumption. He said we should have been out [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > time. I am completely drug free and can pass any drug test. How about > you? Think your a real bad a.s huh? Can you pass a DOT physical??????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! >>>>>Hey dumbfuck, my instructor said I did great and said the whole > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Think your a real bad a.s huh? Can you pass a DOT > physical??????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! to pass Don's bring some vaseline > >>>>>Hey dumbfuck, my instructor said I did great and said the whole > > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > > to pass Don's bring some vaseline LOL!!!!! WHERE THE f.ck DID THAT COME FROM JOE??????????????????????????????????? ................did you have some thought, vision, or dream of me giving you a physical with vaseline? Feel free to explain that statement. You a faig Joe? >>>>>>>Hey dumbfuck, my instructor said I did great and said the whole >>> [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > a physical with vaseline? Feel free to explain that statement. You a faig > Joe? it is your anal fixation in nearly every post, faig > to pass Don's bring some vaseline And a penis. > > to pass Don's bring some vaseline > > And a penis. Guess you'd fail. How's those t-shirts commin along? > > > > Hey dumbfuck, my instructor said I did great and said the whole class > > > > did great with our air consumption. He said we should have been out [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > time. I am completely drug free and can pass any drug test. How about > you? I believe in better living through chemicals . . .and booze, don't forget booze. So your temper issues have nothing to do with steroids. I guess you are just naturally a dickhead. >>>Hey dumbfuck, my instructor said I did great and said the whole class >>>did great with our air consumption. He said we should have been out [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > They can get like that when all "roided" up. ;-))) For the most part the muscles get pumped up with water. Matthias >> The fact is, the most fit diver I have known about, with almost zero body >> fat and with at least, if not more muscle tissue as you or I have, has one [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >the kind of aerobic regime that George did. He could be in terrible aerobic >shape, which could be the cause of larger air consumption. No, I'm in very good aerobic shape. > No, I'm in very good aerobic shape. Did you bother to check to see just who George Irvine is? >> No, I'm in very good aerobic shape. > >Did you bother to check to see just who George Irvine is? No, go look up Ed Coan and Brad Gillingham. >> The amount of energy one expends can very greatly in people. I would >> venture to guess that my resting metabolic rate is double that of a >> normal woman. > >Why would you assume that? Are you in such terrible shape that even >resting, your metabolic rate is exceptionally high? Please look up "basal metabolic rate" for me please. >> Muscle tissue is very "metabolic". It requires a lot of oxygen and >> nutrition . . . > >Only when active. You're a f.cking moron. >> What is your bodyfat percentage? > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >consumption rates of anyone I know of. His name is George Irvine III. >Perhaps you've heard of him. There is no way he is almost zero bodyfat as he would get sick and die if he were to keep it under 5% for an extended period of time. Having said that, he probably has very little muscle mass also which would lower his BMR far lower than a strength athlete. And no, I've never heard of him. >>Don't know. It's higher than I'd like, lower than many. The fact is, the >>most fit diver I have known about, with almost zero body fat and with at >>least, if not more muscle tissue as you or I have, has one of the lowest >>consumption rates of anyone I know of. His name is George Irvine III. >>Perhaps you've heard of him. > There is no way he is almost zero bodyfat as he would get sick and die > if he were to keep it under 5% for an extended period of time. Having > said that, he probably has very little muscle mass also which would > lower his BMR far lower than a strength athlete. And no, I've never > heard of him. No surprise. He's only the most widely known modern dive in the world. Why would you have heard of him. Lee > >>Don't know. It's higher than I'd like, lower than many. The fact is, the > >>most fit diver I have known about, with almost zero body fat and with at [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > No surprise. He's only the most widely known modern dive in the world. Why > would you have heard of him. > Lee Let me help you out John...... Lee's idol and the father of modern diving enjoying a recent surface interval after a relaxing dive at 264' for an amazing 3.5 hours on 1 lousy can. I present to you George Irvine III. http://www.divernet.com/technique/pics/0605fat_divers_02.jpg > Let me help you out John...... Lee's idol and the father of modern diving > enjoying a recent surface interval after a relaxing dive at 264' for an > amazing 3.5 hours on 1 lousy can. I present to you George Irvine III. > http://www.divernet.com/technique/pics/0605fat_divers_02.jpg Thanks Don, but he's not my idol. I'm the one that threatened to call the cops if he didn't get out of my face the one and only time we met personally. Lee > Chose to believe that your higher consumption is a result of your size if > you like. I can think of no better way to ensure you don't improve. "A large diver will consume more oxygen and produce more carbon dioxide because of the increased amount of muscle tissue. A small diver has an advantage in gas consumption because of a smaller muscle mass." -- Fred Bove, M.D., PhD http://www.skin-diver.com/departments/scubamed/feb01_air.asp?theID=1418 Even at rest, a diver with more muscle tissue will be burning more O2 simply because there is more muscle to feed. At work, the air consumption rate for the larger diver increases exponentially since both the increased basal MR and the increased working MR must be factored in. in message news:126hunub7g5loac@corp.supernews.com... >> Chose to believe that your higher consumption is a result of your size if >> you like. I can think of no better way to ensure you don't improve. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > rate for the larger diver increases exponentially since both the increased > basal MR and the increased working MR must be factored in. So your consumption sucks and is beyond hope too? Lee > in message news:126hunub7g5loac@corp.supernews.com... >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > So your consumption sucks and is beyond hope too? No, you're just fat. >>Chose to believe that your higher consumption is a result of your size if >>you like. I can think of no better way to ensure you don't improve. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > the larger diver increases exponentially since both the increased basal MR > and the increased working MR must be factored in. No. Bigger animals benefit metabolically speaking, from the declining-with-mass ratio between mass and surface. Matthias >> Even at rest, a diver with more muscle tissue will be burning more O2 >> simply because there is more muscle to feed. At work, the air [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > No. Bigger animals benefit metabolically speaking, from the > declining-with-mass ratio between mass and surface. Yeah, maybe so, but that just means that the rate of BMR increase slows as mass increases. It's still an exponential increase when work is applied because there is simply more muscle doing the work. And even in the resting case: "Obviously, if one subject is much larger than another, the total amount of energy utilized by the two subjects will be considerably different simply because of differences in body size." -- Guyton, Textbook of Medical Physiology 7th ed. (1986). All other factors being equal, the smaller diver will use less air than the bigger diver at rest and the difference becomes more profound with work. > All other factors being equal, the smaller diver will use less air than the > bigger diver at rest and the difference becomes more profound with work. What he said. While the individual cells may be more efficient in the more muscular person, they still require more oomph to do their job (in total). It's like hiring someone to do a difficult job. If you hire someone to help them, the job load is easier on each, but the overall expenditure goes up. >> All other factors being equal, the smaller diver will use less air than >> the bigger diver at rest and the difference becomes more profound with >> work. Sure, but on a scale of importance, size is at or near the bottom. > >> All other factors being equal, the smaller diver will use less air than > >> the bigger diver at rest and the difference becomes more profound with > >> work. > > Sure, but on a scale of importance, size is at or near the bottom. What you fail to get through your thick head is the fact that muscle tissue is THE MOST METABOLICALLY ACTIVE TISSUE in a mammals (read humans) body. Someone who has a great deal of muscle mass is going to consume more calories and more oxygen than a person who is of the same basic height and weight but has most of their mass in the form of fat. FAT IS NOT METABOLLICLY ACTIVE. As one acquires more muscle mass, the basal metabolic rate increases greatly. It is not unheard of for the largest roided out bodybuilders to consume in excess of 10,000 Kcal/day. In order to burn those calories, your body uses oxygen which obtained from THE AIR THAT WE BREATHE. Hence, the more muscle mass one has, the more air one needs. Here's another example, lets compare you to a sperm whale. A sperm whale's lungs are 4 times more effecient than a humans. Even with that, it will consume more air in one breath that all of the air contained in a typical 72 cubic foot air tank. He'll need to breathe 3 or 4 times every time he comes up for air which is usually every 3-5 minutes. So, he apparently, and this should be readily apparent to you, uses far more air than you do. According to your argument, his size and muscle mass shouldn't matter. At what point will you become embarrassed of your own ignorance? >>> All other factors being equal, the smaller diver will use less air than >>> the bigger diver at rest and the difference becomes more profound with >>> work. > >Sure, but on a scale of importance, size is at or near the bottom. I'm not certain that size might be of more import that you think, but, in any case, "all other factors" are never "equal". Very often they're not even close. SignatureCharlie Hammond -- Hewlett-Packard Company -- Ft Lauderdale FL USA (hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com -- remove "@not" when replying) All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's. >>> All other factors being equal, the smaller diver will use less air than >>> the bigger diver at rest and the difference becomes more profound with >>> work. > > Sure, but on a scale of importance, size is at or near the bottom. At the beginning of the scuba learning curve, sure. At a certain point, however, size is the most sizeable factor. I'd wager that I have at least twice the muscle mass in my legs than you, though I'm unwilling to submit to an autopsy to prove the point. Assuming that we have identical fins, there is twice as much oxygen-demanding tissue in my legs alone that needs to be fed from the tank on my back whenever I kick. Do you really believe that my lungs aren't going to demand significantly more air to compensate? >>>>All other factors being equal, the smaller diver will use less air than >>>>the bigger diver at rest and the difference becomes more profound with [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > fed from the tank on my back whenever I kick. Do you really believe that my > lungs aren't going to demand significantly more air to compensate? I do. Consumption depends on workload. Given the same workload, you will use less enervated muscle cells than a pin leg. The rest of your muscles may serve as an isolation. Your generall fitness, stretching ability, prewarmed or not, determines the amount of friction in the muscle. Matthias >> At the beginning of the scuba learning curve, sure. At a certain point, >> however, size is the most sizeable factor. I'd wager that I have at [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > may serve as an isolation. Your generall fitness, stretching ability, > prewarmed or not, determines the amount of friction in the muscle. If only I could figure out how to use just some of the muscle in my leg when I kick. For some reason, whenever I kick, the entire muscle contracts. Are you suggesting I should just kick with one leg? >>>At the beginning of the scuba learning curve, sure. At a certain point, >>>however, size is the most sizeable factor. I'd wager that I have at [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > I kick. For some reason, whenever I kick, the entire muscle contracts. Are > you suggesting I should just kick with one leg? No. Of enervated muscle fibers. Enervation begins in the brain. You need not enervate all muscle fibers always. Think of a concert hall with millions of lights. To listen to the music and avoid a panic, you don't need much light. To meticulously scrub the floor, you do. Matthias > If only I could figure out how to use just some of the muscle in my leg > when I kick. For some reason, whenever I kick, the entire muscle > contracts. Are you suggesting I should just kick with one leg? Greg, Greg, Greg. You already do this . . . or do you use maximum effort with every kick? Lee > Greg, Greg, Greg. You already do this . . . or do you use maximum effort > with every kick? Actually I try to will myself through the water by mental powers alone. It tends to work better on drift dives. Whenever I have to move my legs, air consumption drops substantially even if it's an effortless slow kick that I could maintain indefinitely. Just as bigger people metabolize more calories in a day (see Magilla eat, for example), they also metabolize more O2 and need to exchange more CO2. Therefore, they need to exchange more air. That's why God invented bigger tanks. > > Greg, Greg, Greg. You already do this . . . or do you use maximum effort > > with every kick? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > need to exchange more CO2. Therefore, they need to exchange more air. > That's why God invented bigger tanks. I thought that's why God created manifolds... >> in a day (see Magilla eat, for example), they also metabolize more O2 and >> need to exchange more CO2. Therefore, they need to exchange more air. >> That's why God invented bigger tanks. > > I thought that's why God created manifolds... Manifolds are usually size independent. It's the tanks they're attached to that will vary. I have a set of manifolded 120s. Unfortunately they're too heavy to lift, so they've been sitting in the same place for over a year. > >> in a day (see Magilla eat, for example), they also metabolize more O2 and > >> need to exchange more CO2. Therefore, they need to exchange more air. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > that will vary. I have a set of manifolded 120s. Unfortunately they're too > heavy to lift, so they've been sitting in the same place for over a year. That's why God created Magilla. :-) |
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