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Scuba Forum / General / April 2006Dive vacation, buying computer
Looks like I'm going to the Caribbean for a couple of weeks this summer, combo work/vaca. Having only done a few dives (not really finding much time for it vs. competing hobbies), I have only mask/snorkel/fins and a heavy wetsuit so far. I'll rely mostly on rental gear on the trip, since my SO will kill me if I bring all the toys for all my hobbies. (And if she doesn't, hauling the toys will cripple me.) My thinking is that other than maybe a pair of warm-water fins, my pre-trip purchase will be a computer. It seems to me that while operation of various regulators is straight-forward (if they work!), if someone hands you a computer, it's not going to be very usable if you don't know all the functions inside-out. So, I'm considering a wrist-mount Oceanic Veo 250. Looks pretty simple and conveniently small, with enough alarms to head off my youthful stupidity. I doubt I'd ever do anything more technical than nitrox. Reasonable or stupid? Mike > Looks like I'm going to the Caribbean for a couple of weeks this > summer, combo work/vaca. Having only done a few dives (not really [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Reasonable or stupid? Why waste the money on a computer when you can have a RDP (Recreational Dive Planner), a bottom timer (any water proof watch that can act as a stopwatch) and a depth gauge (should be part of your rental gear on your console). If you have forgotten how to use the RDP and do multiple dives, the shop and give you a quick rundown in a matter of minutes. Saves you at least a couple of hundred dollars for other toys or to take your SO to a really nice place to eat. > Why waste the money on a computer when you can have a RDP (Recreational > Dive Planner), a bottom timer (any water proof watch that can act as a [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > least a couple of hundred dollars for other toys or to take your SO to a > really nice place to eat. Any time you think you can do a dive with as much versatility with your rpd, timer, etc. as I can with my computer, let me know. I'll be glad to schedule a test. I get to pick the test, loser pays for the dives. Let me know when you're ready. Lee >> Why waste the money on a computer when you can have a RDP (Recreational >> Dive Planner), a bottom timer (any water proof watch that can act as a [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >timer, etc. as I can with my computer, let me know. I'll be glad to >schedule a test. I get to pick the test, loser pays for the dives. I teach my students the tables and The Wheel, make them dive to the tables and all the time I use my computer. I can still do the tables and have my Wheel, but why bother. >Let me know when you're ready. > >Lee >  Signaturedillon I didn't climb to the top of the food chain to become a vegetartian. >>Any time you think you can do a dive with as much versatility with your >>rpd, >>timer, etc. as I can with my computer, let me know. I'll be glad to >>schedule a test. I get to pick the test, loser pays for the dives. > I teach my students the tables and The Wheel, make them dive to the > tables and all the time I use my computer. I can still do the tables > and have my Wheel, but why bother. I favor teaching tables mostly because, in learning to use them, one also learns quite a bit about nitrogen issues. To me, it 's a bit like math. Everyone should know how to add, subtract, multiply, divide and work with fractions. Once they know, they should buy a calculator (or computer) to make things easier. Lee >>Why waste the money on a computer when you can have a RDP (Recreational >>Dive Planner), a bottom timer (any water proof watch that can act as a [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >>least a couple of hundred dollars for other toys or to take your SO to a >>really nice place to eat. > Any time you think you can do a dive with as much versatility with your rpd, > timer, etc. as I can with my computer, let me know. I'll be glad to > schedule a test. I get to pick the test, loser pays for the dives. This isn't about bottom time, etc. If you read his post, you would know that he doesn't dive much at all. So, how much bottom time is he going to get out of a rental AL80 being basically a new diver? Will he exceed no deco limits? I don't think so. And since he only does this once in a while, why waste the money on a dive computer? Here is the reason why I replied the way I did. wagen13@yahoo.com wrote: > Looks like I'm going to the Caribbean for a couple of weeks this > summer, combo work/vaca. Having only done a few dives (not really > finding much time for it vs. competing hobbies), I have only > mask/snorkel/fins and a heavy wetsuit so far. I don't read anything about persuing diving as a serious hobby. Why spend the money if the computer is just going to sit and wait for the next vacation? > Let me know when you're ready. To dive with you? For sure when I manage to get down there. > Lee > This isn't about bottom time, etc. If you read his post, you would know > that he doesn't dive much at all. So, how much bottom time is he going to > get out of a rental AL80 being basically a new diver? Will he exceed no > deco limits? I don't think so. And since he only does this once in a > while, why waste the money on a dive computer? Here is the reason why I > replied the way I did. First, second or third dive? You're probably right about how much he dives. On the other hand, if he continues to dive, why pay for gauges that you later replace with a computer. Lee > > This isn't about bottom time, etc. If you read his post, you would know > > that he doesn't dive much at all. So, how much bottom time is he going to [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > continues to dive, why pay for gauges that you later replace with a > computer. Why pay for either? If that's what he's doing then he can just stay level with the DM. >> You're probably right about how much he dives. On the other hand, if he >> continues to dive, why pay for gauges that you later replace with a >> computer. > Why pay for either? If that's what he's doing then he can just stay level > with the DM. What does he do when the DM goes to support someone else? Lee > >> You're probably right about how much he dives. On the other hand, if he > >> continues to dive, why pay for gauges that you later replace with a [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > What does he do when the DM goes to support someone else? Same thing 100's of other divers do every day. >> >> You're probably right about how much he dives. On the other hand, if >> >> he >> >> continues to dive, why pay for gauges that you later replace with a >> >> computer. >> > Why pay for either? If that's what he's doing then he can just stay >> > level >> > with the DM. >> What does he do when the DM goes to support someone else? > Same thing 100's of other divers do every day. Follow him down? You know as well as anyone why every computer manufacturer in the world advises against sharing a computer with another diver and I don't have to tell you that the same logic applies to trusting your dive planning and execution entirely to someone who is not your buddy and can't be counted on to put your welfare above that of other divers. Not everybody reading your words is as experienced. Lee > >> >> You're probably right about how much he dives. On the other hand, if > >> >> he [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Follow him down? I must have missed something here. I thought we were talking about a computer vs a dive timer. Are you guys talking about a computer vs a depth guage? (snip) > I must have missed something here. I thought we were talking about a > computer vs a dive timer. Are you guys talking about a computer vs a > depth > guage? Why bother with a depth gauge if you're just going to be following the DM? (I still remember physically restraining Janna from following the DM down to 130' when we were on 36% in Thailand - seems that the DM didn't know a thing about MODs and only had 95 dives under his belt - still, it was nice "white glove" service when we weren't avoiding getting killed) > > I must have missed something here. I thought we were talking about a > > computer vs a dive timer. Are you guys talking about a computer vs a [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > about MODs and only had 95 dives under his belt - still, it was nice "white > glove" service when we weren't avoiding getting killed) Answer yer damn email wouldja? > > Why pay for either? If that's what he's doing then he can just stay > > level with the DM. > I must have missed something here. I thought we were talking about a > computer vs a dive timer. Are you guys talking about a computer vs a > depth > guage? At this point, you and I were talking about your statement above, i.e. why he should not "just stay level with the DM." Lee > > > Why pay for either? If that's what he's doing then he can just stay > > > level with the DM. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > At this point, you and I were talking about your statement above, i.e. why > he should not "just stay level with the DM." In that case, I agree with you. I've seen it happen a few times where the DM would go to help another diver or some such. If there's no hard bottom, he will sign "stay" before he headed off. However, even if he/she didn't sign, I've never seen a diver go with. Janna excepted, not that I saw her. In that instance, she's fortunate that Greg was paying attention to her. :^) >>This isn't about bottom time, etc. If you read his post, you would know >>that he doesn't dive much at all. So, how much bottom time is he going to >>get out of a rental AL80 being basically a new diver? Will he exceed no >>deco limits? I don't think so. And since he only does this once in a >>while, why waste the money on a dive computer? Here is the reason why I >>replied the way I did. > First, second or third dive? > You're probably right about how much he dives. On the other hand, if he > continues to dive, why pay for gauges that you later replace with a > computer. If he were going to persue diving as an avid "hobby", I would say yes to a computer. But he is only renting gear. Most gear that I know that is rental have a compass, spg, and depth gauge on the console. All he would need is a bottom timer and know his RDP. Usually, at most resorts, they tell you how long you will be down. And at his "skill" level, he might be up a lot quicker. > Any time you think you can do a dive with as much versatility with your > rpd, timer, etc. as I can with my computer, let me know. I'll be glad to > schedule a test. I get to pick the test, loser pays for the dives. Damn, you've learned from Ding-a-Ling on those limits. :-) Curtis ""Magilla"" wrote >> Any time you think you can do a dive with as much versatility with your >> rpd, timer, etc. as I can with my computer, let me know. I'll be glad to >> schedule a test. I get to pick the test, loser pays for the dives. > Damn, you've learned from Ding-a-Ling on those limits. :-) I was more honest. I didn't claim that my test would be what anyone else claimed. To demonstrate the versatility of a computer over other methods, you have to do a dive that takes advantage of that versatility. Lee >> Damn, you've learned from Ding-a-Ling on those limits. :-) > > I was more honest. I didn't claim that my test would be what anyone else > claimed. To demonstrate the versatility of a computer over other methods, > you have to do a dive that takes advantage of that versatility. Just yanking your chain. Tony's reasoning is pretty good on this one, although I'm sure our agreements would diverge soon past. :-) Besides, if I wanted to demonstrate the uselessness of most dive computers, I'd break the parameters you use yours for, and you'd impose a profile I wouldn't or couldn't do even with a computer. <evil grin> Curtis "Magilla" wrote: >>> Damn, you've learned from Ding-a-Ling on those limits. :-) >> >>I was more honest. I didn't claim that my test would be what anyone else >>claimed. To demonstrate the versatility of a computer over other methods, >>you have to do a dive that takes advantage of that versatility. > Just yanking your chain. > Tony's reasoning is pretty good on this one, although I'm sure our > agreements would diverge soon past. :-) > > Besides, if I wanted to demonstrate the uselessness of most dive > computers, I'd break the parameters you use yours for, and you'd impose a > profile I wouldn't or couldn't do even with a computer. <evil grin> Thanks Curtis. On the Doria dive, I did use my Cochran, but I also went by my printed out tables (along with bail-outs, etc) on a slate. The Cochran ran pretty close to the tables I printed out using VPlanner. > Why waste the money on a computer when you can have a RDP (Recreational > Dive Planner), a bottom timer (any water proof watch that can act as a > stopwatch) and a depth gauge (should be part of your rental gear on your > console). Somehow this sounds un-Tonyish. Did you take a DIRF class? ;-) >>Why waste the money on a computer when you can have a RDP (Recreational >>Dive Planner), a bottom timer (any water proof watch that can act as a >>stopwatch) and a depth gauge (should be part of your rental gear on your >>console). > Somehow this sounds un-Tonyish. Did you take a DIRF class? ;-) Nah... I still dive with 2 computers. He said (or at least to my understanding) is that he doesn't dive much at all. His SO beefs about all his toys. Since he really doesn't dive much if at all, why waste the money on the a computer? How long do you think he will last with an AL80? Most likely suck it down like an Orek. Run into deco? I don't think so. He also did not mention anything about taking diving more serious (diving more than a few of times a year) or purchasing any more gear (I would opt for a very decent reg before a computer). > Reasonable or stupid? The concept is reasonable. No comment on the wisdom of your choice of computer. I know nothing of the model you mention. Here's my take on computers in general. 1. The most important feature of any computer I might consider is batteries that the user can change him/herself. 2. The second most important feature is that it will handle nitrox without being excessively conservative. I don't have anything against being conservative, only against a computer that forces it on me. It's my life and my choice. That means that I'm very unlikely to ever own a Suunto computer. 3. The third most important feature is that the display shows information I want to know, when I want to know it. That means it clearly shows current depth, dive time, no deco time and a graphic representation of both nitrogen and oxygen status at all times. Anything else it shows is gravy, but it has to show those elements all the time. Some, perhaps most, air integrated computers, don't. This, by the way, means it 's at least a nitrox capable computer. Non nitrox computers don't usually show O2 status. 4. The next most important feature, to me, is the display. It has to show things in a logical manner. Logical is defined as something I recognize for what it is even when narced to the gills. 5. The next consideration is the shape and physical dimensions of the computer. One that fits a standard depth gauge slot in a console gets extra points. One that can be mounted either in a standard console or a wrist, or a hose mount, get still more points. 6. Almost not in the running, but always at least a consideration, is cost. Lee I can't say it's a well-informed choice of computer. Based mainly on appearing to be easy to read. I'm way too inexperienced to make a sophisticated choice. I need to ask for advice at my local club, but can't seem to make the meetings. As I said before, at this point I'm interested in good alarms. To date, my weak points are forgetting to start my bottom timer and forgetting to do a safety stop. So far, I've been good with bouyancy control, watching the depth and time (once I get the clock started), and monitoring my tank pressure, but if I screw up and exceed my dive plan, I want an alarm to go off like a depth charge. A review here, with comments about the algorithms: http://www.scubadiving.com/gear/dive_computers/crunching_the_numbers/7/ http://www.scubadiving.com/gear/dive_computers/crunching_the_numbers/3/ > A review here, with comments about the algorithms: > > http://www.scubadiving.com/gear/dive_computers/crunching_the_numbers/7/ > http://www.scubadiving.com/gear/dive_computers/crunching_the_numbers/3/ And you were doing so good until you quoted Rodales... <snicker> > I can't say it's a well-informed choice of computer. Based mainly on > appearing to be easy to read. I'm way too inexperienced to make a > sophisticated choice. I need to ask for advice at my local club, but > can't seem to make the meetings. A Veo 250 is my backup computer. It works just fine. > As I said before, at this point I'm interested in good alarms. To > date, my weak points are forgetting to start my bottom timer and > forgetting to do a safety stop. So far, I've been good with bouyancy > control, watching the depth and time (once I get the clock started), > and monitoring my tank pressure, but if I screw up and exceed my dive > plan, I want an alarm to go off like a depth charge. The alarm is not that loud. I set the Veo 250 at one threshold and my other computer at a less-conservative threshold (in part because when I dive with my son he gets the Veo 250, in part because I like the concept of staged warnings). But it's very easy to miss the alarm going off. I hear it perhaps one time in three--not nearly often enough for it to be reliable (even with two of them). In the end, this is probably a Good Thing. Checking your gauges often is an essential, good habit anyway. Also, be aware that the Veo 250 will not warn you about missed safety stops. (Neither will the Versa Pro.) Having said that, you do have to work at it a bit to get into trouble on the first dive with an AL80, or even the second if the depth is moderate after a reasonable surface interval. You can easily plan your dives to control the risk of having a deco obligation with or without a computer. A computer does not really do dive planning for you. It just tells you the expected no-deco limits for each potentially planned depth. Gas planning is up to you! > A review here, with comments about the algorithms: > > http://www.scubadiving.com/gear/dive_computers/crunching_the_numbers/7/ > http://www.scubadiving.com/gear/dive_computers/crunching_the_numbers/3/ I like the 250. It's easy to understand, reasonably easy to use, and the battery is easy enough to change on a boat if the need should ever arise (which it shouldn't; the battery indicator is large and easy to understand, too!). (It will be interesting to see whether it goes into a violation mode during the Deco class later this year...) John Eells > As I said before, at this point I'm interested in good alarms. To > date, my weak points are forgetting to start my bottom timer and > forgetting to do a safety stop. So far, I've been good with bouyancy > control, watching the depth and time (once I get the clock started), > and monitoring my tank pressure, but if I screw up and exceed my dive > plan, I want an alarm to go off like a depth charge. A computer isn't going to know your dive plan. You use a computer precisely to avoid a specific dive plan. An air-integrated computer can roughly eyeball the amount of air time you have left based on your depth and rate of consumption, but it's not going to mean much if your consumption rapidly increases due to exertion or panic. If you need to rely on alarms to tell you what to do, you really don't want to be diving without a DM holding your hand. >> As I said before, at this point I'm interested in good alarms. To >> date, my weak points are forgetting to start my bottom timer and [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > rely on alarms to tell you what to do, you really don't want to be diving > without a DM holding your hand. I prefer to think a computer allows you to plan as you go rather than helping you avoid planning at all. Otherwise, I agree with you. How often does that happen? Lee >> A computer isn't going to know your dive plan. You use a computer >> precisely to avoid a specific dive plan. An air-integrated computer can [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > I prefer to think a computer allows you to plan as you go rather than > helping you avoid planning at all. Otherwise, I agree with you. That's why I said "specific" dive plan. Often I'll dive in with the plan to go to 90', plus or minus 30' depending on what I feel like watching, photographing, or videoing. If I have to chase an eagle ray down to 140, so be it. The computer has my back. But in the sense that the computer in your head is constantly recalculating or "planning" the remainder of the dive based on the data supplied by the computer, I agree. At an X amount of air remaining in my tank, I'll "plan" not to go deeper than Y feet even if I see something really cool on the bottom. On the other hand, if it's really, really cool, I'll make a bounce dive to whatever it is, then let the computer penalize me for my naughty behavior on the way back up. > How often does that happen? I like Captain Morgan's too. >>> As I said before, at this point I'm interested in good alarms. To >>> date, my weak points are forgetting to start my bottom timer and [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >I prefer to think a computer allows you to plan as you go rather than >helping you avoid planning at all. Otherwise, I agree with you. A computer allows me to change a planned dive at 90 feet to a multi level at 90 then 65. It gives me flexibility. I use it as a planning tool and try to dive to the plan. But The Wheel is rather unforgiving of things like saw tooth dive plans (floating at 50 feet when another diver drops a camera to the 65 foot bottom). A computer isn't a crutch, it's a more precise tool. You wouldn't build a house with a hammer, you'd use a power nailer. More precise and easier to use, but you have to know how to use it. >How often does that happen? > >Lee > Signaturedillon I didn't climb to the top of the food chain to become a vegetartian. I say don't buy anything. You've been happy renting thus far......just rent the best computer the dive operator offers. Take a few minutes to get familiar with the display and dive. The annual upkeep on a set of regulators and even the battery changes for the computer will probably be much more in cost per dive than just renting. If the dive shop you use has marginal stuff find a new shop or negotiate the rental of better equipment. A shop might even do a rent to own, but you would have to consider diving more. If you feel you must buy something get a good watch with a dept gauge, Citizen makes a few. This would enable you to use the tables as a back-up to the computer. The watch could be worn all the time and offer more year-round utility. I have often been asked if I dive when some one notices my dive watch so a few minutes of testosterone conversation can also be had! John >>>> As I said before, at this point I'm interested in good alarms. To >>>> date, my weak points are forgetting to start my bottom timer and [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] >> >>Lee
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