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Scuba Forum / General / March 2006Portable deco chambers
Hey guys - any of youse have any experience with those $15k portable chambers? Are they a good investment, are they easy to operate and so on? We are in the butt end of the universe, and a recent incident where I came quite close to getting bent has mde me think of getting a portable chamber. $15k is quite steep, needless to say, so I'll only consider it if it is useful for managing DCS and lung expansion injuries (and we are talking about single, Al80, air type of nitrogren loading only - no mix). Any opinions would be appreciated. Thx, Vandit > Hey guys - any of youse have any experience with those $15k portable > chambers? Are they a good investment, are they easy to operate and so > on? You talking of a tube one ? ( there are some other out of kevlar tissue, supported by rings of different diameter, making them easy to stow away) > We are in the butt end of the universe, and a recent incident where I > came quite close to getting bent has mde me think of getting a portable [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Any opinions would be appreciated. Single chambers are officially not allowed for anything but transport to a treatment chamber. Not sure what you mean by lung expansion. A pneumothorax needs drainage first, IIRC, otherwise you will kill the patient. This does exclude the use of single person chambers for injuries people, becuase you cannot administer treatment. IMHO, the possibility of IWR would more than outweigh the suspected benefits of a transport chamber. That is oxygen, oxygen, umbilical,thermal protection, hydration, full face mask, a deco rig, support divers, and oxygen. And a watch, to time oxygen breaks. Best with 12/55, or similar. Matthias > Single chambers are officially not allowed for anything but > transport to a treatment chamber. Is this due to liability reasons, or due to actual lack of effectiveness? I dont really give a toss about liability (we are lawyer free, where we are) - all I want is the best solution for treating someone if the compost does hit the fan, which improves their odds of successful recovery. > This does exclude the use of single person chambers for > injuries people, becuase you cannot administer treatment. True. > IMHO, the possibility of IWR would more than outweigh the > suspected benefits of a transport chamber. Can you elaborate why, Matthias? Most of our profiles are quite relaxed, and we dont allow serious decompression - so whatever hit someone takes is likely to be quite light. The other risk is lung expansion (and I was under the impression that some forms of AGE do require recompression?), if someone panics and bolts. > That is oxygen, oxygen, umbilical,thermal protection, > hydration, full face mask, a deco rig, support divers, and > oxygen. > And a watch, to time oxygen breaks. Best with 12/55, or similar. Hmm.. that's also something to consider, except no mix available, so we will be working with either air or 100%. And even getting medical grade O2 is a challenge - previously, we had to live with welding O2, but now atleast medical O2 is available. I've written to DAN SEAP, asking their opinion as well. Vandit >>Single chambers are officially not allowed for anything but >>transport to a treatment chamber. [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > grade O2 is a challenge - previously, we had to live with welding O2, > but now atleast medical O2 is available. Here in the states, Medical o2 comes out of the same storage cylinder as welding o2. Is it different where you are? > I've written to DAN SEAP, asking their opinion as well. > > Vandit  Signature_______________________________________________________________________________ "A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for them; the simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences." - Proverbs 22:3 >>>Single chambers are officially not allowed for anything but >>>transport to a treatment chamber. [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > >Is it different where you are? That's what I see here. Although av grade is supposed to be drier. >> I've written to DAN SEAP, asking their opinion as well. >> >> Vandit >> Signaturedillon Could have been is in the past Could be is in the future There is only the now >>Single chambers are officially not allowed for anything but >>transport to a treatment chamber. > > Is this due to liability reasons, or due to actual lack of > effectiveness? Liability issues arise with ease, once the OOSHA or similar has excluded the use... Lack of effectiveness compared to surface oxygen treatment and subsequent transport, of necessary, to a treatment chamber, condensed a bit later as a reason to exclude single chambers from normal treatmetn, when other means were available. > I dont really give a toss about liability (we are > lawyer free, where we are) - all I want is the best solution for > treating someone if the compost does hit the fan, which improves their > odds of successful recovery. Ok, lets use common sense.. >>This does exclude the use of single person chambers for >>injuries people, becuase you cannot administer treatment. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > relaxed, and we dont allow serious decompression - so whatever hit > someone takes is likely to be quite light. That is not likely to be lightly taken. Even with little deco missed you can have serious issues. I'd bet you know the common methods of prevention, so lets dig a bit deeper.. I'd suggest 2 things: 1)Return pressure: Begin ascent when one third of the filling pressure is consumed. Not because to honour the rule of thirds, as cave divers do, but to ensure you have enough gas to perform an efective decompression. 2) decompression curve: Observe a schedule whith first stop at 80% of the bottom depth's pressure, and continue to follow this till normal stop depths come. (eg. 40m max:- 30/22/15/12 (45-60 seconds);9m2';6m4',3m11' This should do 2 things: Minimize the chances of decompression sickness; and minimizepost dive fatigue. >>That is oxygen, oxygen, umbilical,thermal protection, >>hydration, full face mask, a deco rig, support divers, and [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Hmm.. that's also something to consider, except no mix available, so we > will be working with either air or 100%. OK with that. By chance, I just happended to reread today Rich Pyles "confessions of a mortal diver I, and II. You'll find a bit on pulmonary effects of O2, among else... And even getting medical > grade O2 is a challenge - previously, we had to live with welding O2, > but now atleast medical O2 is available. At least here in Germany I don't hesitate the least to use welding oxygen. > I've written to DAN SEAP, asking their opinion as well. The Australians have quite a good protocol for IWR with oxygen, published on the web. My personal experience with bends ( slight elbow/knee ones of my GF) is the following: 1) dives in the 30-40m range: according to dive duration and tissues concerned ( halftime) we arranged for a dive given the same tissue pressure, and did a very slow ascent. Worked. 2) dives in the 50-65m range, light bends when flying 32 hours later: pain gone when plane touched ground again after 3 hours flight 3) knee and ankle( !) bends 13 hours after 2 dives to 32 m: one hour oxygen, pain fully gone. Experience with a friend who's predicament began at the 3m stage( numbness in arm, pain in shoulders): He ascended and reported to the captain when the pain began, 5 minutes later he was on oxygen( Wenoll rebreather system, his severe cutis marmorata began already to diminish, and was gone when we arrived at the chamber 2 hours later. Not the numbness and pain. During the first minutes in the chamber at 2,8 bar on oxygen pain was gone, and he was restituted fully after a 2+ hours chamber ride ( USN 5 schedule) See also http://www.brooksidepress.org/Products/OperationalMedicine/DATA/operationalmed/M anuals/FlightSurgeonHandbook/11mgmt_dcs.html You see that for the most common types of DCS ( with normal rec diving) an elevated ppO2 was "all" what was needed (pressurewise). Also remember that, with a one place chamber, you need more gas than just to compress to standard tratment depth. You need gas to flush, to replace oxygen, to flush CO2... I think better spend this money in O2 bottles, full face mask, umbilical, weight harness, dry suit, diapers, intercom, infusion needle, and the seven Ps. Matthias PS: A friend having severe inner ear problems, among else, from insufficient decompression needed a multitude of deep recompression, even long of the fact. Hearing loss remained. > Also remember that, with a one place chamber, you need more > gas than just to compress to standard tratment depth. You > need gas to flush, to replace oxygen, to flush CO2... Just curious, but do they ever just pressurize the chamber with air and then have a respirator that the person breathes from? >>Also remember that, with a one place chamber, you need more >>gas than just to compress to standard tratment depth. You >>need gas to flush, to replace oxygen, to flush CO2... > > Just curious, but do they ever just pressurize the chamber with air and then > have a respirator that the person breathes from? Normally you breathe oxygen inside the chamber from a FFM. You thinking of a respirator operated from a bottle inside then chamber? Btw, a friend has a one place Draeger chamber for sale.. Matthias > Normally you breathe oxygen inside the chamber from a FFM. > You thinking of a respirator operated from a bottle inside > then chamber? No, I was thinking a respirator whose gas supply was controlled from external of the tank... >>Normally you breathe oxygen inside the chamber from a FFM. >>You thinking of a respirator operated from a bottle inside >>then chamber? > > No, I was thinking a respirator whose gas supply was controlled from > external of the tank... You got a drill? Don't forget a balanced OPV, then. Matthias > You got a drill? Don't forget a balanced OPV, then. I was just wondering if any of the commercial units use that sort of mechanism... I'm fairly certain that if they chose to, plumbing a supplied breathing gas line into it such that it could be independent of the gas used to maintain atmospheric pressure could be accomplished... I have to wonder if the main advantage of a portable chamber might be to put a person back under pressure for a trip back to shore when there is no way to medivac them and the trip to back to shore or a land based chamber is unacceptably long... On the other hand, it might be useful for an out-of-water decompression like the Navy used to use with their hard hat divers... They would bring them up before they had decompressed, strip them out of the Mk-V and gear, put them in a chamber and bring them back down to the pressure depth where they should have been doing their decompression if they had been doing it in the water... Supposedly, they had a fairly short period of time where they could accomplish this and it not affect the diver... Hmmm... I wonder if they still use this method or if a better one has been developed... >>You got a drill? Don't forget a balanced OPV, then. > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > accomplish this and it not affect the diver... Hmmm... I wonder if they > still use this method or if a better one has been developed... To my knowledge this method is forbidden by now. Matthias > >>You got a drill? Don't forget a balanced OPV, then. > > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > To my knowledge this method is forbidden by now. Nope. It's called SUR D/02 and in common use commercially and in military; US Navy Diving Manual CHAPTER 14 - Surface Supplied Mixed Gas Diving Procedures 14-3.11 Surface Decompression Procedures (SUR D). Surface decompression procedures are preferred over in-water decompression procedures for routine operations. SUR D procedures improve the diver's comfort and safety. A diver is eligible for surface decompression when he has completed the 40 fsw water stop. To initiate surface decompression: 1. Bring the diver to the surface at 40 fsw/min and undress him. 2. Place the diver in the recompression chamber. Use of an inside tender when two divers undergo surface decompression is at the discretion of the divesupervisor. If an inside tender is not used, both divers will carefully monitor each other in addition to being closely observed by topside personnel. 3. Compress on air to 50 fsw at a maximum compression rate of 100 fsw/min and place the diver on 100 percent oxygen by mask. The mask will be strapped on both divers to ensure a good oxygen seal. WARNING The interval from leaving 40 fsw in the water to arriving at 50 fsw in the chamber cannot exceed 5 minutes. 4. In the chamber, have the divers breathe oxygen for 30 minute periods separated by 5-minute air breaks. The number of oxygen periods required is indicated in Table 14-3. The first period consists of 15 minutes on oxygen at 50 fsw followed by 15 minutes on oxygen at 40 fsw. Periods 2, 3, and 4 are spent at 40 fsw. Periods 5, 6, 7 and 8 are spent at 30 fsw. Ascent from 50 to 40and from 40 to 30 fsw is at 30 fsw/min. Ascent time is included in the oxygen/air time. Ascent from 40 to 30 fsw, if required, should take place during the air break. 5. When the last oxygen breathing period has been completed, return the diver to breathing chamber air. 6. Ascend to the surface at a rate of 30 fsw/min. > On the other hand, it might be useful for an out-of-water decompression like > the Navy used to use with their hard hat divers... They would bring them up [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > accomplish this and it not affect the diver... Hmmm... I wonder if they > still use this method or if a better one has been developed... They still do it. They do their stops in the water up to 50 ft, then do 10 minutes of oxygen at 50 ft and are then brought up and put in the chamber. This is also standard protocol in commercial diving. > > On the other hand, it might be useful for an out-of-water decompression like > > the Navy used to use with their hard hat divers... They would bring them up [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > 10 minutes of oxygen at 50 ft and are then brought up and put in the > chamber. This is also standard protocol in commercial diving. Yeah. > That is not likely to be lightly taken. Even with little > deco missed you can have serious issues. > I'd bet you know the common methods of prevention, so lets > dig a bit deeper.. <snip on excellent points> Those are excellent suggestions - and btw, let me say first that while it may seem as if I am arguing with you, but I am not. I do appreciate your taking the time to provide input and suggestions I am not worried about deco happening under normal circumstances - know enough to avoid getting bent, if it is just me diving. However, given that we get divers of all levels, I am worried about someone else doing something stupid, or me or one of our other staffers having to do something stupid to save someone else doing something stupid, and so on. So while prevention is good, I am concerned enough to fret over the day something will go wrong. > At least here in Germany I don't hesitate the least to use > welding oxygen. I was told by the oxygen provider that the standards for handling/sale/usage are different for welding and medical O2. Dont know if that is due to a difference in content, or simply due to govt regulations left over from 50 years ago. They are unable to provide me with an analysis of the content, though. I've sucked on the welding O2, and it's been fine - am a little hesitant to breathe it under pressure until I know for sure what the distinction is. D&C - welding O2 comes in differently marked bottles as well. But that is mostly due to health & safety regulations that apply for medical O2 use, and not for welding use. > The Australians have quite a good protocol for IWR with > oxygen, published on the web. <snip excellent stuff> > I think better spend this money in O2 bottles, full face > mask, umbilical, weight harness, dry suit, diapers, > intercom, infusion needle, and the seven Ps. That's good stuff, Matthias. That's probably the place to start and also something we can put together quite quickly. I'll start looking into that asap. If I get a stick, I can probably blend a 30-35% mix as well. Thanks for the help all! Vandit > I am not worried about deco happening under normal circumstances - know > enough to avoid getting bent, if it is just me diving. However, given [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > on. So while prevention is good, I am concerned enough to fret over > the day something will go wrong. Yes... It is a question of when, not if.. I rememember this guy sitting in the boat, asking why is my Aladin beeping at me and showing little arrows? ( he had been washed up from 33m to 6m at Gaafaru Channel, Maldives), or a group of French who lost the anchor in tidal waters, an one insisted he would find it when they redescend from 11m to 32m. Did not, air ran out, missed 19 minutes, one girl got bent and had to be "chambered". >>At least here in Germany I don't hesitate the least to use >>welding oxygen. > > I was told by the oxygen provider that the standards for > handling/sale/usage are different for welding and medical O2. Different standards, yes. That is why Draeger quit filling oxygen bottles. To much costs involved with the documentation, related paperworks, certs. Fact which supplied me with some bottles for a good price. > Dont > know if that is due to a difference in content, or simply due to govt > regulations left over from 50 years ago. They are unable to provide > me with an analysis of the content, though. I've sucked on the welding > O2, and it's been fine - am a little hesitant to breathe it under > pressure until I know for sure what the distinction is. It's been told that medical grade bottles have to be vacuumed before the filling, while welding don't. Since the O2% of both is garanted, this doesn't seem to matter much. > D&C - welding O2 comes in differently marked bottles as well. But that > is mostly due to health & safety regulations that apply for medical O2 > use, and not for welding use. Medical oxygen is treated as a medicine, and thus must have a "best before" datum. Seems thy think otherwise oxygen molecules suffer from decay or something. > That's good stuff, Matthias. > > That's probably the place to start and also something we can put > together quite quickly. I'll start looking into that asap. If I get > a stick, I can probably blend a 30-35% mix as well. Did you notice differences in how clients from different countries would react differently to diving problems? Matthias > I rememember this guy sitting in the boat, asking why is my > Aladin beeping at me and showing little arrows? If I were to make a dive computer, I'd have a "skull display" that would come up at some point. > Medical oxygen is treated as a medicine, and thus must have > a "best before" datum. Seems thy think otherwise oxygen > molecules suffer from decay or something. I was thinking more in terms of trace gases, impurities and such that might be present in welding O2, but absent in medical-grade. And in a developing nation, I would be very hesitant to trust the quality of something for which there were no known standards that would make it safe. Not knowing how the regulations distinguish between the two makes me want to avoid using a diver as a guinea pig. Anyway, that is moot as we have gotten medical grade O2 now (how's that for progress?) - and a good thing, as we have also found a deep site where we regularly see sharks.. > Did you notice differences in how clients from different > countries would react differently to diving problems? Heh, indeed! Vandit >>I rememember this guy sitting in the boat, asking why is my >>Aladin beeping at me and showing little arrows? > > If I were to make a dive computer, I'd have a "skull display" that > would come up at some point. From the first days of programmable computers ( TI 58), I remember this thing to "set flags". Wonder why they didn't see the necessity of showing the Jolly Joker right then. >>Did you notice differences in how clients from different >>countries would react differently to diving problems? > > Heh, indeed! Send pics. BTW, where is this shark place? Matthias > BTW, where is this shark place? It's a few rocks at 30-35m, in the middle of a channel between 2 islands. Average depth is 55-60m in the channel, so this is the "high point", so to speak. On a single dive, you see maybe a few hundred fusiliers, a couple of hundred barracuda, big-a.s groupers, turtles (if you are lucky), morays, some of the usual reef denizens, and if you go off the reef a little bit, sharkses. I've been buzzed by a marlin there in that area, the first time I had gone out to try to look for a reef in this channel. It is a mind-blowing dive. Another site, also at 35m, has 4-5m sea fans forming a lane through which you can swim. Amazing stuff. The problem is that the current can be (a) a real motherf****r sometimes, and you need go down the line looking downcurrent and shielding your reg in your hand, or risk losing your reg and (b) extremely unpredictable. Site is too small to drift. All the punters want to go dive it. Our rule is AOW and above only + no one goes there, regardless of card, until we have seen them in the water on other sites. That helps weed out the more inexperienced divers, but doesnt really give any indication of how someone might react if the compost does hit the fan. Vandit > Hey guys - any of youse have any experience with those $15k portable > chambers? Are they a good investment, are they easy to operate and so [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Any opinions would be appreciated. Check your e-mail > Hey guys - any of youse have any experience with those $15k portable > chambers? Are they a good investment, are they easy to operate and so [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Any opinions would be appreciated. Is this thread of any help to you, Vandit? http://groups.google.ca/group/rec.scuba/browse_frm/thread/63a5e014286f1aa0/65835 8d3e6e53ced?lnk=st&q=group%3Arec.scuba+author%3Achilly&rnum=3&hl=en#658358d3e6e5 3ced >http://groups.google.ca/group/rec.scuba/browse_frm/thread/63a5e014286f1aa0/65835 8d3e6e53ced?lnk=st&q=group%3Arec.scuba+author%3Achilly&rnum=3&hl=en#658358d3e6e5 3ced Yes indeed! Thanks for the link. I think that is one of the portable chambers I had checked out on the internet. Some of the claims on that website definitely got my bullshit detector going, which is what ultimately led to my quest to learn more about these things. Vandit |
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