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Scuba Forum / General / March 2006Din or Yoke
I want to thank all that replied to my question as to which was more popular ... DIN or yoke for personal compressors. The response was overwhelmingly DIN. HOWEVER ... so far I have orders for a dozen of the small compressors and all but two wanted yoke fillers! Those other two wanted paintball fillers. Kinda makes you go hmmmmmmmm!!  SignatureRay Contreras =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Webmonkey for: http://www.ossystems.com http://www.bobs-garage.com http://www.clanwolverine.org http://www.rayzplace.com >I want to thank all that replied to my question as to which was more >popular ... DIN or yoke for personal compressors. The response was [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Kinda makes you go hmmmmmmmm!! It's the reality of rec.scuba. >>I want to thank all that replied to my question as to which was more >>popular ... DIN or yoke for personal compressors. The response was [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > It's the reality of rec.scuba. So says Ken Johnson, 8 year veteran of Rec.scuba. >I want to thank all that replied to my question as to which was more >popular ... DIN or yoke for personal compressors. The response was [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Kinda makes you go hmmmmmmmm!! Consider the crowd. Most of us who own tanks probably own DIN. -I- sure wouldn't buy a compressor unless it had both. > Consider the crowd. > > Most of us who own tanks probably own DIN. > > -I- sure wouldn't buy a compressor unless it had both. Yup ... me too! I have tried suggesting a DIN fitting and for a few bucks more adding the yoke adapter but they just think I am trying to "hard sell" them something instead of offering a suggestion. I sold a portable today to a guy that wants the 4500 PSI system with a yoke filler! I tried to explain that yokes weren't designed for that pressure, but ... Oh, well. SignatureRay Contreras =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Webmonkey for: http://www.ossystems.com http://www.bobs-garage.com http://www.clanwolverine.org http://www.rayzplace.com > Yup ... me too! I have tried suggesting a DIN fitting and for a few bucks > more adding the yoke adapter but they just think I am trying to "hard > sell" them something instead of offering a suggestion. I sold a portable > today to a guy that wants the 4500 PSI system with a yoke filler! I tried > to explain that yokes weren't designed for that pressure, but ... I don't think I want to be around when that guy hooks his regulator up and opens his valve. Lee >>Yup ... me too! I have tried suggesting a DIN fitting and for a few bucks >>more adding the yoke adapter but they just think I am trying to "hard [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I don't think I want to be around when that guy hooks his regulator up and > opens his valve. On a recent trip to the Caribbean I had my DIN-reg with me, and needed to borrow a yoke adapter to fit it on their tanks. I was quite lucky the adapter was rated to 290bar because one of the tanks (alu) was at 270bar. It was the only time when I have actually seen anything metal "stretch" visibly. /m >> Consider the crowd. >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Oh, well. Talk about "Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm". > > Consider the crowd. > > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Oh, well. Wouldn't selling such an outfit open you up for liability issues? > Wouldn't selling such an outfit open you up for liability issues? Yes and no. My product liability guy made me put all kinds of silly warning signs all over the compressors before I shipped them out. One is on the yoke saying "Rated for 3000 PSI. Higher pressure may result in injury or death". Plus there are about a dozen warning pages scattered about the user manual. What is amazing is that these are sold in Europe every day with only one warning sign ... "add oil before starting". SignatureRay Contreras =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Webmonkey for: http://www.ossystems.com http://www.bobs-garage.com http://www.clanwolverine.org http://www.rayzplace.com > > Wouldn't selling such an outfit open you up for liability issues? > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > in injury or death". Plus there are about a dozen warning pages > scattered about the user manual. Warning signs and placards won't protect you from negligence. Knowingly selling a product that isn't safe for it's intended use is negligence. I'm surprised your "product liability guy" (your attorney, I assume) would even let you consider something like this. > What is amazing is that these are sold in Europe every day with only one > warning sign ... "add oil before starting". > Warning signs and placards won't protect you from negligence. Knowingly > selling a product that isn't safe for it's intended use is negligence. > I'm surprised your "product liability guy" (your attorney, I assume) > would even let you consider something like this. It is safe for its intended use which is clearly communicated on the device. Lee > > Warning signs and placards won't protect you from negligence. Knowingly > > selling a product that isn't safe for it's intended use is negligence. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Lee ???? If the guy is planning to use 3500~4500 psi fills with a yoke, and the guy is selling him a compressor with this fitting knowing he's planning on doing it (which is why you said you wouldn't want to be around when he did those fills), then how is it safe? Hey, if the guy wants a bigger comp just to fill his cil's a little faster to 200 bar instead of the compressors max operating pressure of 300 bar, the yoke is a good thing to get, especially if he only owns 200 bar cillinders. This way he can't mistake a 200 bar cil for a 300 bar (300 bar's have different conn. ==> DIN). Also he like's the extra power it's got and never uses, so he expect's it to suffer less from wear, like the mercedessed used to (engine that could give much more power, but were tuned down, but therefore were vertually indestructable. He's just selling the stuff, not telling people how to use it. He put up lot's of warning signs on where the unit was intended to use for and éach part's max.loads . There isn't much more you can do. You can't stand next to them at each fill. There are still people selling cars that can drive faster than both the speed limit on the roads (regulation) and the max speed of their tires mounted on that car (tech.spec. of components) Frank > ? "Alan Street" wrote > ? [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > on doing it (which is why you said you wouldn't want to be around when > he did those fills), then how is it safe? There different DIN fittings for 200 bar (with 7 threads IIRC) and 300 bar (11 threads IIRC). That lets you put a 300 bar reg on a 200 bar tank, but not a (rare as hen's teeth) 200 bar reg on a 300 bar tank. But if the guy can't keep straight how many bar his own tanks take, he shouldn't be filling tanks. > Hey, if the guy wants a bigger comp just to fill his cil's a little faster to 200 bar instead of the compressors max operating > pressure of 300 bar, the yoke is a good thing to get, especially if he only owns 200 bar cillinders. This way he can't mistake a [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] >> on doing it (which is why you said you wouldn't want to be around when >> he did those fills), then how is it safe? > It is safe for its intended use which is clearly communicated on the > device. > If the guy is planning to use 3500~4500 psi fills with a yoke, and the > guy is selling him a compressor with this fitting knowing he's planning > on doing it (which is why you said you wouldn't want to be around when > he did those fills), then how is it safe? It's intended use is indicated right on the compressor and it's not to overfill tanks. How is it any different from our national speed limit of 70, and cars that will all go faster than that. Lee > It's intended use is indicated right on the compressor and it's not to > overfill tanks. How is it any different from our national speed limit of > 70, and cars that will all go faster than that. > > Lee The roads are policed and some of the violators are caught in an attempt to curtail speeders. Who are the scuba police, the industry is its own police. My local dive shops will sell anything to anyone EXCEPT air. No cert card no air. That is a policing. The equipment should be designed to operate at its max rating. The compressor should be setup with 300bar din and the operator then can choose to use an adapter to fill a yoke tank. The operator then assumes the responsibility to operated the equipment properly and safely. John >> It's intended use is indicated right on the compressor and it's not to >> overfill tanks. How is it any different from our national speed limit of >> 70, and cars that will all go faster than that. > The roads are policed and some of the violators are caught in an attempt > to curtail speeders. Who are the scuba police, the industry is its own > police. The police have nothing to do with the liability of the car manufacturers. If you want something similar, you might refer to speed limit signs along the side of the road versus use limits printed right on the compressor. You don't like the driving issue, fine. I have a shop compressor with a tire filling end. It's capable of pressures up to 120 psi. It is advertised at that level and I bought it specifically because it had a higher maximum pressure than most home compressors. My car tires aren't safe at pressures much over 45 psi and my compressor doesn't even have a warning about over filling tires. > My local dive shops will sell anything to anyone EXCEPT air. No cert card > no air. That is a policing. No it's not. Policing is when you control what someone else will do. All they've done is establishe a policy for themselves and, frankly, their policy is less restrictive than the US industry policy of not selling life support equipment to those who do not first prove certification. > The equipment should be designed to operate at its max rating. It is. > The compressor should be setup with 300bar din and the operator then can > choose to use an adapter to fill a yoke > tank. The operator then assumes the responsibility to operated the > equipment properly and safely. The operator assumes liability anyway. Why would you assume that the only use for the compressor is filling tanks or that no tanks it ever fills will be rated for more than 300 bar? Have you considered that the compressor might be used to do a hydro test? Lee To do a hydro test, you pump water, not air. >>> It's intended use is indicated right on the compressor and it's not to overfill tanks. How is it any different from our >>> national speed limit of 70, and cars that will all go faster than that. [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > Lee >> Have you considered that the compressor might be used to do a hydro test?<< OK Lets all stand around and pump 5000+ psi through a yoke to do a hydro test. And to get back to the car / speed thing. How about you decide you would prefer a set of tires for your new car that came off a John Deer Lawn tractor. So your dealer goes ahead and in stalls them. Now why don't you give that car to your wife or son or daughter, who is of legal age and licensed to drive. Are you secure in the fact the will operate it safely? Will you take the stand, "The dealer didn't have a problem with it after all he installed them" NO you wouldn't so why would you want a set-up that could fail if not micromanaged that could result in injuring some one. If the output of the system is 4000 psi then all aspects of the equipment should be rated at that pressure or there should be a passive limiter that would govern down the pressure to match the weakest link. >>> Have you considered that the compressor > might be used to do a hydro test?<< > > OK Lets all stand around and pump 5000+ psi through a yoke to do a hydro > test. > And to get back to the car / speed thing. How about you decide you would > prefer a set of tires for your new car that came off a John Deer Lawn > tractor. So your dealer goes ahead and in stalls them. Now why don't you > give that car to your wife or son or daughter, who is of legal age and > licensed to drive. Are you secure in the fact the will operate it safely? Yes. We do it down here all the time. Usually, we call them Swamp Buggies and don't drive them on hard pavement. It tears the expensive tires up way too fast. This, however, is not the same thing. What you describe is my choice on how to use the product. Whether I make a good choice or not is my business as long as the dealer makes sure he's informed me what the recommended use is. > Will you take the stand, "The dealer didn't have a problem with it after > all he installed them" Yes, as a matter of fact, I would. > NO you wouldn't . . . Do you always ask a question and then answer it yourself. It's not a great idea. You risk getting the answer wrong, as you did this time. > So why would you want a set-up that could fail if not micromanaged that > could result in injuring some one. Because it's more versatile? Most things I use on a daily basis are desiged to do things that I will never use them for. Many times the extra capacity means that the device strains less at it's normal use levels. Sometimes it means that I can find new and interesting things to do with a device I purchased for a different purpose. As for micromanaging, if you're not going to closely monitor your tank filling process, I'd prefer you not fill tanks at all. After all, you might sue me for selling you a device that, even after telling you to be careful, you chose to use irresponsibly. > If the output of the system is 4000 psi then all aspects of the equipment > should be rated at that pressure or there should be a passive limiter that > would govern down the pressure to match the weakest link. I certainly agree that a valve that allows one to limit the maximum pressure that goes into a tank is an advantage. If it were my compressor, I'd have one. I am not, however, prepared to require the same for everyone. As long as there are ways to use a compressor without such a limiter, it's not my business to deny others the right to their choice. The weakest link in most US tanks is the burst disk in the valve, followed by the O ring that seals the connection, followed by the tank itself. Burst disks and O rings are designed to fail without catastrophic results. It's up to the user to use a tank in a manner that is safe. In the US, rated pressures range from about 2,500 psi to 3,500 psi. My yoke connector is stamped with a 3,500 psi rating. It's safe to use on any tank I own (3,000 psi to 3,500 psi ratings) and almost certainly strong enough to withstand the 4,000 psi rating of the compressor in question. I'm not certain that all of my tanks would survive as well. Perhaps if I were so foolish as to take a tank clearly marked for 2,500 psi and fill it to 4,000 psi, I might also be so foolish as to think that the guy that sold me the compressor capable of that pressure, who told me how to use it safely, might be somewhat responsible for my doing what he specifically told was not safe. Lucky for the retailer, I'm not that foolish. Unfortunately for everybody, some juries are. That's one of the reasons businesses incorporate and carry insurance. >>>> Have you considered that the compressor might be used to do a hydro >>>> test?<< >> OK Lets all stand around and pump 5000+ psi through a yoke to do a hydro >> test. You can do that if you like. If you do, it's not the fault of the guy that sold you the compressor. That's the point. Personally, I'd use a different hose for my hydro test than I used for filling tanks, but I might use the same compressor. Your example isn't valid anyway. The compressor we're talking about has a pressure rating of 4,000 psi. That's not the 5,000 you mention. In the US, they sell tanks rated as low as 2,400 psi. That's the only tank you could effectively hydro test with a 4,000 psi compressor. While that's a bit above the rated 3,500 psi pressure for my yoke connectors, it's not so far above that I think a failure is likely. It's not the kind of thing I would chose myself, but it's probably quite safe. Lee > To do a hydro test, you pump water, not air. You know, in over 40 years of diving, I've never had a reason to check this out. Just goes to show that even the very experienced can learn something new. Lucky for me, I'm used to having my foot in my mouth. Thanks. Lee > > To do a hydro test, you pump water, not air. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Thanks. Hey, when you are through learning, you are through living. > > To do a hydro test, you pump water, not air. > > You know, in over 40 years of diving, I've never had a reason > to check this out. Just goes to show that even the very > experienced can learn something new... FYI, some more "hydro testing trivia": Early hydro tests were done with a combination of water and air. One such case was the Army Air Force in the 1940's, to test aircraft tires. Its water for the fill, then air for the pressure: you would fill the vessel up with water, close the vessel and then apply compressed air. Since water is nearly a non-compressible, it acts like 'dunnage' to inertly fill up space. This way, the actual amount of total stored energy (in the form of compressed air) that has to be added to get up to high pressures is quite small. -hh >>You don't like the driving issue, fine. I have a shop compressor with a tire filling end. It's capable of pressures up to 120 psi. It is advertised at that level and I bought it specifically because it had a higher maximum pressure than most home compressors. My car tires aren't safe at pressures much over 45 psi and my compressor doesn't even have a warning about over filling tires.<< For your compressor analogy to work you will need to replace the hose and fitting you use to fill your tires with those from a bicycle pump and then run the compressor at its full rating. And remember your compressor is designed to do more than fill tires. Good Luck > For your compressor analogy to work you will need to replace the hose and > fitting you use to fill your tires with those from a bicycle pump and then > run the compressor at its full rating. And remember your compressor is > designed to do more than fill tires. Good Luck OK, try this instead: http://www.colemanpowermate.com/compressors/airtanks.shtml 125 psi and it only has an air chuck fitting on it... Therefore, it is expressly designed just for filling tires... Or what about this: http://www.autobarn.net/acafs-260.html 275 psi... Not going to find too many tires that will be able to handle that I suppose... >>For your compressor analogy to work you will need to replace the hose and >>fitting you use to fill your tires with those from a bicycle pump and then [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > 125 psi and it only has an air chuck fitting on it... Therefore, it is > expressly designed just for filling tires... Storage tanks, not compressors. You could fill more than one tire with it if need be. > Or what about this: > http://www.autobarn.net/acafs-260.html > > 275 psi... Not going to find too many tires that will be able to handle that > I suppose... I would LOVE to see one of those 12volt pumpers fill anything up to that pressure rating! Might take "days" to do it. :) Hey Tony.........all this blab and as you know I dive yoke at 3400psi........Things should just be put together right. >>>For your compressor analogy to work you will need to replace the hose and >>>fitting you use to fill your tires with those from a bicycle pump and [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > I would LOVE to see one of those 12volt pumpers fill anything up to that > pressure rating! Might take "days" to do it. :) > Hey Tony.........all this blab and as you know I dive yoke at > 3400psi........Things should just be put together right. So do I, but my yokes are rated for pressures well above that. Many aren't. >>>>For your compressor analogy to work you will need to replace the hose >>>>and >>>>fitting you use to fill your tires with those from a bicycle pump and >>>>then run the compressor at its full rating. And remember your compressor >>>>is >>>>designed to do more than fill tires. Good Luck I put a fitting on the hose designed for fill tires. The compressor runs at its full rating whenever it's running. it's up to me whether or not I use the full capacity on a tire. A dive compressor is designed to do more than just fill tanks. They're used for hydro testing too. >> I would LOVE to see one of those 12volt pumpers fill anything up to that >> pressure rating! Might take "days" to do it. :) I'd like to see one that would reach it's advertised capacity. The one in the back of my car does the 50 psi I use on my trailer tires easily. I'm not sure that it would do the 100 psi one of my bicycles prefers. Lee > A dive compressor is designed to do more than just fill tanks. They're used > for hydro testing too. Hydro testing is done with water, and they use a pump that works something like a Haskel. > Hydro testing is done with water, and they use a pump that works > something like a Haskel. So I've been told. You live and learn. Thanks. Lee >> Hydro testing is done with water, and they use a pump that works >> something like a Haskel. > > So I've been told. You live and learn. Helps to have seen the local facility that does hydros. :-) Curtis ""Magilla"" wrote >>> Hydro testing is done with water, and they use a pump that works >>> something like a Haskel. >> >> So I've been told. You live and learn. > > Helps to have seen the local facility that does hydros. :-) Actually, I've seen several, but there's nothing particularly obvious that would lead me to question my misconception. Some, perhaps all of the hydro units are air powered but, apparently, use it to pump water into the tank rather than the air itself. Once you think about it, it makes sense. Lee >> Helps to have seen the local facility that does hydros. :-) > > Actually, I've seen several, but there's nothing particularly obvious that > would lead me to question my misconception. Some, perhaps all of the > hydro units are air powered but, apparently, use it to pump water into the > tank rather than the air itself. Once you think about it, it makes sense. Guess I could have been more specific. One of my dive buddies used to do the hydros, I got to see some done from start to drying rack. And, being familiar with what happens with superheated water tank failures and tank BLEVEs I wondered what happened when one catastrophically fails during testing, until I saw the water fill. Matthias's anecdote says that the spring action of the steel can do damage also, that I wouldn't have thought about. Curtis > ""Magilla"" wrote > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Actually, I've seen several, but there's nothing particularly obvious that > would lead me to question my misconception. ´This brings to my mind ..when we finished the assembly of a "training compressor" during the comprssor repair class at Bauer's, the instructor had us all walk out of the room before he alone put it on mains again. He said, if anyone gets hurts from doing so, it's got to be someone really responsable. Seems like he trusted in our work. Matthias >> A dive compressor is designed to do more than just fill tanks. They're >> used >> for hydro testing too. > > Hydro testing is done with water, and they use a pump that works > something like a Haskel. That is correct, simple reason.......if the tank fails, with water, being non-compressable, it just "breaks" or will not hold the pressure. Tank is then dried completely if good before being returned to service. Curtis "Magilla" wrote: >>>A dive compressor is designed to do more than just fill tanks. They're >>>used [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > That is correct, simple reason.......if the tank fails, with water, being > non-compressable, it just "breaks" or will not hold the pressure. Depends on the size of the tank. In a plant where they build overpressure valves of worldwide reputation (a friend of mine was alocal maanging director), they hydroed a big supply tank( more than 1m³, rated to 300 bar. Hydroing involved measuring the amount of volume increase during a certain time, so they went of for lunch. When they returned, the tank had burst, and spit through the crack a water jet pulse turning a big welding transformer standing nearby literally to shreds. Matthias hey, no matter what you say or do, some idiot is gong to try to stuff 4500psi into an aluminum 80 cuft tank rated for 3000psi... no ammount of stickers, warnings or "policing" by ANYONE is gonna cure stupidity!!! didja ever hear of the DARWIN AWARDS??? 'nuff said!! don > hey, no matter what you say or do, some idiot is gong to try to stuff > 4500psi into an aluminum 80 cuft tank rated for 3000psi... no ammount of > stickers, warnings or "policing" by ANYONE is gonna cure stupidity!!! > didja ever hear of the DARWIN AWARDS??? 'nuff said!! don Wow, a WebTVer who can make complete sentences... I'm impressed... <grin> A hydro test is for 5/3rds of the the tank's working pressure, so for a 3000 psi tank, it is normally hydro tested at 5000 psi... As such, it is unlikely that 4500 psi will earn the person a Darwin Award... With a yoke fill, he *might* be in for a noisy surprise if his setup can't handle it and he blows out an O-ring... > hey, no matter what you say or do, some idiot is gong to try to stuff > 4500psi into an aluminum 80 cuft tank rated for 3000psi... no ammount of > stickers, warnings or "policing" by ANYONE is gonna cure stupidity!!! > didja ever hear of the DARWIN AWARDS??? 'nuff said!! don I'm sure you're right. The question is not whether some fool will go too far. The question is whether it's the fault of the retailer if, despite warnings to the contrary, the fool does it anyway. Lee > > hey, no matter what you say or do, some idiot is gong to try to stuff > > 4500psi into an aluminum 80 cuft tank rated for 3000psi... no ammount of [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Lee Actually, the question was whether selling an outfit like that opened him up for liability issues. The answer was that it did but that he covered himself by attaching numerous warnings. > > > hey, no matter what you say or do, some idiot is gong to try to stuff > > > 4500psi into an aluminum 80 cuft tank rated for 3000psi... no ammount of [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > for liability issues. The answer was that it did but that he covered > himself by attaching numerous warnings. I would disagree that warning stickers are enough to cover his liability. If someone were injured because the yoke failed at 4500 psi and they sued the company that assembled the compressor/hose/fitting system, I have no doubt that the company would be found liable (and rightfully so, in my opinion), regardless of any warning stickers. The core functionality of the system (the compressor) is designed for 4500 psi. Intentionally installing a piece of the system that is rated for 2/3 of that functionality, then expecting the system not to be used to it's full rating is asking for a problem, especially when an easy alternative exists (sell it with a DIN fitting, then sell the user with a DIN/Yoke adapter. Then the *user* has to modify the system to use it at a lower pressure). Warning stickers are no panacea for selling what is essentially a defective product (if for no other reason than stickers can fall off over time). I'm not a legal expert, but I do have enough experience with product liability litigation that I'm pretty confident of my position here. Maybe it's time for our resident attorney to chime in. "Alan Street" <agstreet@nonono_san.rr.com> wrote in message news:270220060925556239% > I'm not a legal expert Of course that doesn't stop you from exercising your prerogative to provide your legal opinion on rec.scuba. (Nor should it.) > "Alan Street" <agstreet@nonono_san.rr.com> wrote in message > news:270220060925556239% >> I'm not a legal expert > > Of course that doesn't stop you from exercising your prerogative to > provide your legal opinion on rec.scuba. (Nor should it.) He attached a liability disclaimer... > He attached a liability disclaimer... Alan is sooooooooooooo considerate. "ben bradlee" wrote in message > Alan is sooooooooooooo considerate. Probably something he learned leading the SOB's. He became quite infamous for his leadership skills as well as his knowledge of buoyancy. > "ben bradlee" wrote in message > > > Alan is sooooooooooooo considerate. > > Probably something he learned leading the SOB's. He became quite infamous > for his leadership skills as well as his knowledge of buoyancy. Still befuddled by the concept of delta, aren't you :-) > ? "ben bradlee" wrote in message > ? [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Still befuddled by the concept of delta, aren't you :-) Was that an echo in KBens' post, or is he more schizoid than usual? > > ? "ben bradlee" wrote in message > > ? [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Was that an echo in KBens' post, or is he more schizoid than usual? Define "usual" :-) > ? "Lee Bell" <pleebell2@bellsouth.net> wrote in message > ? news:lTqMf.31972$Ly6.24387@bignews5.bellsouth.net... > ? > <donald561@webtv.net> wrote in message > ? > news:14412-4402252E-278@storefull-3116.bay.webtv.net... > ? > > hey, no matter what you say or do, some idiot is gong to try to stuff > ? > > 4500psi into an aluminum 80 cuft tank rated for 3000psi... no ammount of > ? > > stickers, warnings or "policing" by ANYONE is gonna cure stupidity!!! > ? > > didja ever hear of the DARWIN AWARDS??? 'nuff said!! don > ? > > ? > I'm sure you're right. The question is not whether some fool will go too > ? > far. The question is whether it's the fault of the retailer if, despite > ? > warnings to the contrary, the fool does it anyway. > ? > > ? > Lee > ? > ? Actually, the question was whether selling an outfit like that opened him up > ? for liability issues. The answer was that it did but that he covered > ? himself by attaching numerous warnings. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > confident of my position here. Maybe it's time for our resident > attorney to chime in. I can see both sides. Personally, I believe that the user is ultimately responsible, but the law is what the law is. Either the seller can be found liable or he can't. Considering it would probably be a civil matter, he's putting an awful lot of faith in the jury system. > I would disagree that warning stickers are enough to cover his > liability. If someone were injured because the yoke failed at 4500 psi > and they sued the company that assembled the compressor/hose/fitting > system, I have no doubt that the company would be found liable (and > rightfully so, in my opinion), regardless of any warning stickers. Of course, it might go to a jury where someone believes in personal responsibility and as such the company would not be found liable... Basically, you're allowed to be an idiot, but you have to take responsibility for your dumb actions... Unfortunately, once something gets lawyers involved in it, it's usually a losing proposition for everyone except the fuckin' lawyers... There is also the issue of whether the failure would likely cause any injury... I suspect that the first thing to go will be the O-ring and as such, it will be noisy, but the fill whip will stay attached to the tank and as such, the chance for injury should be rather slight... Maybe someone who has had a yoke's O-ring fail during a fill can chime in about whether there was any sort of tank or fill whip movement that might be enough to cause injury if you were standing near it... If you're so worried about tank movement, build you a reinforced concrete container to hold the tank while you're filling it... I figure that you could build a 16" thick wall around a 24" empty square with 20 8x8x16 CMUs... Assuming that 32" was tall enough, 4 rows would do it, so we're now looking at 80 CMUs... The 8x8x16 CMUs are $1.12 at Home Depot, so we're talking about $89.60... One 80-lb bag of concrete fills 3 CMUs, so we're looking at 27 80-lb bags of concrete which at a cost of $3.08 equates to $83.16... Rebar goes for $3.20 for a 3/8"x20' piece and assuming 2 32" pieces in each cell, thus 40 pieces which means 6 pieces of rebar, so an additional $19.20... This brings us up to $191.96... Add a few more bucks for attaching it to an existing concrete slab... So, for less than $250, you could have yourself a fill area that would handle even an exploding tank... How much is guaranteeing your personal safety worth to you? Awh, 'ell, while you're at it, add a 1/2" plate steel layer on the inside of the enclosure... Of course, if you're going to go to this length just to fill your tanks, you just *have* to integrate it with your 175,000 BTU grill, right? Oh, buy the way, just in case you haven't figured it out, this design is not exactly for a *portable* fill station... <grin> Make it a bit larger and it'll classify as a safe room for tornados... > as such, the chance for injury should be rather slight... Maybe someone who > has had a yoke's O-ring fail during a fill can chime in about whether there > was any sort of tank or fill whip movement that might be enough to cause > injury if you were standing near it... If you're so worried about tank > movement, build you a reinforced concrete container to hold the tank while > you're filling it... I've had Orings fail several times, and nothing moved. I saw the drawings for the new fill station soon to be built in cave country (across the street from the mobile home where it is now) - how about a drive-in blast containment chamber? > Maybe someone who has had a yoke's O-ring fail during a fill can chime in > about whether there was any sort of tank > or fill whip movement that might be enough to cause injury if you were > standing near it... If you're so worried about > tank movement . . . It makes a lot of noise. That's about the extent of it. A blown burst disk is much more interesting. > If you're so worried about tank movement, build you a einforced concrete > container to hold the tank while > you're filling it... Put it in an open top steel tube filled with water. The water and the tube should be enough to stop flying metal which, because it's open at the top, has a pressure release for the air and water exiting the tank. A hydro tank with the top off should work just fine. Lee > Put it in an open top steel tube filled with water. The water and the tube > should be enough to stop flying metal which, because it's open at the top, > has a pressure release for the air and water exiting the tank. A hydro tank > with the top off should work just fine. I would prefer to keep my tanks dry while filling... It's more an issue with filling a tank too fast, but there's some potential issues with using a water bath to cool a tank while it is filling from what I've read... Other that that, you're solution isn't overengineered enough... 16 inches of reinforced concrete plus a half inch of plate steel is definitely overengineered enough though... >> I'm sure you're right. The question is not whether some fool will go too >> far. The question is whether it's the fault of the retailer if, despite >> warnings to the contrary, the fool does it anyway. > Actually, the question was whether selling an outfit like that opened him > up > for liability issues. The answer was that it did but that he covered > himself by attaching numerous warnings. I don't think it opened him up to any more liability than selling a compressor in any other configuration would have, particularly since there are tanks, valves and yikes around rated anywhere from 2,400 to 3,500 psi. 3,500 psi tanks are often filled to around 3,800 psi so that they stabilize at 3,500 when they return to room temperature. Any compressor that can fill hp tanks will exceed the rated capacity of low pressure ones. The nature of the device requires someone who will be careful what he does with the device he buys. Perhaps we should all sue PADI (deepest pockets) because the industry they are part of does not require a separate certification before selling a compressor. Lee > >> I'm sure you're right. The question is not whether some fool will go too > >> far. The question is whether it's the fault of the retailer if, despite [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Lee Maybe I should have said that *his* answer was... > Maybe I should have said that *his* answer was... Nah, nobody in rec.scuba reads things like this that carefully. Lee >>A dive compressor is designed to do more than just fill tanks. They're used >>for hydro testing too. > > Hydro testing is done with water, and they use a pump that works > something like a Haskel. Similar pump used in testing hydraulic eqipment, brakes. Well in lack of I could imagine myself build a pressure container with a membrane separating water and air, and use my faithful Draeger DK 18 for hydroing. If I'd ever happen to be that damn stupid to feel the need to. Matthias > I'd like to see one that would reach it's advertised capacity. The one in > the back of my car does the 50 psi I use on my trailer tires easily. I'm > not sure that it would do the 100 psi one of my bicycles prefers. Strange it took so long that someone mention bicycles tires. They should hydro them, too. Matthias "Matthias Voss" wrote .. >> I'd like to see one that would reach it's advertised capacity. The one >> in the back of my car does the 50 psi I use on my trailer tires easily. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > They should hydro them, too. I've not heard of anyone being killed by exploding bicycle tires, but I clearly recall someone killed by an exploding car tire. He was filling a tubeless tire, trying to get it to seat on the rim when it let loose. Killed him deader than a doornail. Lee > I've not heard of anyone being killed by exploding bicycle tires I had one blow up on me once... Surprised the sh.t out of me... I can see it possibly giving a somewhat older geezer a heart attack and killing him... > I've not heard of anyone being killed by exploding bicycle tires, but I > clearly recall someone killed by an exploding car tire. I've heard of quite a few individuals who were seriously injured while changing large truck tires... Enough so that these days it appears that most shops require them to be put in some sort of cage device while they are being aired up... >> I've not heard of anyone being killed by exploding bicycle tires, but I >> clearly recall someone killed by an exploding car tire. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >shops require them to be put in some sort of cage device while they are >being aired up... I used to manage a Goodyear tire store, and we sold a fair number of truck and agricultural tires. The truck tires were almost always the "split rim" type, and were always inflated in a cage made of 11/2 tubular steel. I didn't see anyone killed or injured while I was there, but I heard many, many stories about people being killed or injured inflating truck tires. I heard one blow off the wheel while being inflated in the cage, and that was scary enough. Galen Hekhuis NpD, JFR, GWA ghekhuis@earthlink.net Floats like a bee, stings like a butterfly > > I've not heard of anyone being killed by exploding bicycle tires, but I > > clearly recall someone killed by an exploding car tire. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > shops require them to be put in some sort of cage device while they are > being aired up... Many large tires use split rims, where one side of the wheel is essentially an oversized snap ring. They make changing flats much easier if you know what you're doing, but tend to come apart explosively if you don't. Popeye may have a story or two about them. > ? "Lee Bell" wrote in message > ? news:CBqMf.31898$Ly6.27722@bignews5.bellsouth.net... [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > easier if you know what you're doing, but tend to come apart > explosively if you don't. Popeye may have a story or two about them. Believe it or not, in arguably tens of thousands of automotive repairs, I've never changed one. Although I'm well aware of what they are. There were ring marks above the tire machine in the plywood ceiling of the first place I worked, 16 feet off the floor. They were illegal in Massachusetts in 1981, when I started fixing cars. The modern big trucks use one piece steel or aluminum. In the thousands of tires I've mounted, I've had only two split up the sidewall while beading up, seemingly louder than any weapon I've ever fired. In one incidence, the event took a common tire gauge out of my hand, and put it through a window over 30 ft away. > "Matthias Voss" wrote > .. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > tubeless tire, trying to get it to seat on the rim when it let loose. > Killed him deader than a doornail. A guy lost his head (literally) in Boca a few years ago filling a Learjet's nose gear tire from a nitrogen tank. Not pretty. LD. > A dive compressor is designed to do more than just fill tanks. They're used > for hydro testing too. never true. hydrostatic testing is ALWAYS done with liquid that is not compressible. if the tank fails, a small amount of liquid come out. if you did the test with air, and compress it to say 5000 psi, and it fails... WHAM!! >>> I would LOVE to see one of those 12volt pumpers fill anything up to that >>> pressure rating! Might take "days" to do it. :) [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Lee > Hey Tony.........all this blab and as you know I dive yoke at > 3400psi........Things should just be put together right. So.... that's what you call it... diving... yeah... I got it now.... :) Hey Tony, shoot me an email. Curtis > I would LOVE to see one of those 12volt pumpers fill anything up to that > pressure rating! Might take "days" to do it. :) I had a 20# BBQ propane tank that I used as a portable air tank for filling the tires on my plane... One day I decided to try filling it from the 120 psi of my shop compressor the rating on the 12V compressor... It overheated and quit running long before it had come anywhere near its supposed pressure rating... > The roads are policed and some of the violators are caught in an attempt to > curtail speeders. Total fuckin' bullshit... If they actually did curtail speeeders, the departments would have a serious budget shortfall... > My local dive shops will sell anything to anyone EXCEPT air. No cert card no > air. That is a policing. No, that's a racket used to sell certification classes... They don't want to the people to know that many people over the years have taught themselves how to dive without the help of any sort of certification agency... >The equipment should be designed to operate at its > max rating. The compressor should be setup with > 300bar din and the operator then can choose to use > an adapter to fill a yoke tank. The operator then > assumes the responsibility to operated the equipment > properly and safely. Although I agree that DIN is a better connector, I don't see a problem with them using a yoke fitting... The O-ring will blow out if you use it at too high of a pressure and it'll make a loud noise... Shouldn't be too big of a deal... But if the police catches a speed-limit violater, they don't sew the car-dealer nor the car-manufacturer! >> It's intended use is indicated right on the compressor and it's not to >> overfill tanks. How is it any different from our national speed limit of [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > John > But if the police catches a speed-limit violater, they don't sew the > car-dealer nor the car-manufacturer! Unless it is a case of "sudden acceleration". Matthias >>>It's intended use is indicated right on the compressor and it's not to >>>overfill tanks. How is it any different from our national speed limit of [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >> >>John >> Consider the crowd. >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >Oh, well. Oh, that bang was HIS o-ring. Signaturedillon Could have been is in the past Could be is in the future There is only the now >I want to thank all that replied to my question as to which was more popular ... DIN >or yoke for personal compressors. The response was overwhelmingly DIN. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Kinda makes you go hmmmmmmmm!! I'm still a yokel but hope to change one day. Adam |
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