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Scuba Forum / General / February 2006

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Canada Seal Hunt

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Lee Bell - 03 Feb 2006 11:18 GMT
I got this from the Humane Society of the US.  I don't normally pay
attention to what radical tree huggers have to say.  Like the Brady Bunch,
they've been known to lie.  This one, however, sort of got my attention.
True or false?

Lee
--------------------------------------
Canada Seal Hunt

The largest commercial slaughter of marine mammals on the planet is set to
begin in late March. By the end of the hunt, it's predicted that more than
300,000 seals will have been clubbed or shot to death -- many of them babies
as young as 12 days old. Last year, a shocking 98.5% of the seals killed
were two months old or younger, and some were skinned while still conscious
and able to feel pain. We expect more of the same during this year's hunt.

Seal hunting is an off-season activity conducted by fishermen from Canada's
east coast. They earn, on average, a small fraction of their incomes from
seal hunting -- the rest comes from commercial fisheries.
Grumman-581 - 03 Feb 2006 11:39 GMT
> I got this from the Humane Society of the US.  I don't normally pay
> attention to what radical tree huggers have to say.  Like the Brady Bunch,
> they've been known to lie.  This one, however, sort of got my attention.
> True or false?

Culling / harvesting the herd... 300K out of a 5M population according to:
http://www.livescience.com/animalworld/050401_seal_hunt.html

Supposedly, the seals do a pretty good number on the cod population...
Lee Bell - 03 Feb 2006 13:57 GMT
> Supposedly, the seals do a pretty good number on the cod population...

Imagine that.  They eat their natural food.
Grumman-581 - 03 Feb 2006 19:17 GMT
> Imagine that.  They eat their natural food.

Yep, problem is though, we also have a taste for it... As most animals
eventually learn, if you compete with man for something, you usually
loose...

Of course, it boils down to supply and demand... If the European countries
and China did not buy the skins, it is unlikely the harvesting of the seals
would be as extensive...

One might wonder if we can compare the harvest to our harvesting of deer...
According to
http://espn.go.com/outdoors/hunting/s/h_deer_forecast05_TX.html, we came
into 2005 with an estimate of nearly 4M whitetail deer in Texas...  The 2005
harvest was 433,387... So, if you look at it from a numbers standpoint, the
seal harvest is harvesting a smaller percentage per year than we do deer...

According to http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/newsmedia/releases/?req=20050110d,
there are 1.5M deer-car collisions... I would hazard to guess that a very
good percentage of these are fatal...
Bryan Heit - 03 Feb 2006 21:27 GMT
One of the reasons why the seal hunt is so unpopular (in Canada and
abroad) is that it seems to be unnessisarily cruel.  Many seals are
killed using clubs, which a lot of people consider too cave-man-ish for
todays society.

Every year the government monitors the hunts (and they've been
challenged in court), and not once has anyone been able to prove it is
inhumane.  I vaguely remember a news report from last year talking about
the humanness of the hunt, and it didn't sound any worse then hunting
with a gun (I'll see if I can dig up the article).

As for the "animals skinned alive", etc, those are largely stories
spread by the animal "rights" groups.  If that were happening there is
no doubt that the people involved would be charged.  And yet after
decades of government monitoring the only changes I've ever heard of
have been in regards to contacts between the fishermen and animal rights
activists.

Bryan
Matthias Voss - 03 Feb 2006 12:55 GMT
This is all true.

A friend of mine, with whom I filmed miles of underwater
video, had been on the Sea Sheperds ship during another
years campaign against seal slaughter. His pics were moving,
stated the worst, but also showed how cute and beautiful the
 young baby seals were, when left unslaughtered, and filmed
face to face.

Matthias

> I got this from the Humane Society of the US.  I don't normally pay
> attention to what radical tree huggers have to say.  Like the Brady Bunch,
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> east coast. They earn, on average, a small fraction of their incomes from
> seal hunting -- the rest comes from commercial fisheries.
Mike from Ottawa - 04 Feb 2006 19:24 GMT
>This is all true.
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>Matthias

The cute, white coat seal pups have not been harvested since 1987.

Maybe it would be more palatable if the seals were scaly and ugly.

---
Mike from Ottawa
HostlBuddha - 04 Feb 2006 20:51 GMT
Bjórrúnar skaltu Mike from Ottawa rista

> Maybe it would be more palatable if the seals were scaly and
> ugly.

Nah, Lingcod are pretty damn scaly and ugly and harvesting them is
forbidden as well.
Lee Bell - 04 Feb 2006 22:32 GMT
> The cute, white coat seal pups have not been harvested since 1987.

The US Humane Society, who say they were, and will be there, say you're
mistaken.

Lee
Popeye - 04 Feb 2006 22:43 GMT
>> The cute, white coat seal pups have not been harvested since 1987.
>
> The US Humane Society, who say they were, and will be there, say you're
> mistaken.

 I didn't quite catch his cite, either.

> Lee
SeanMartinFarrell@gmail.com - 06 Feb 2006 18:47 GMT
http://www.releases.gov.nl.ca/releases/2005/fishaq/0316n06.htm

here's a cite. it's in our legislation as banned. is there a link to
the US Humane Society saying this still goes on?

> >> The cute, white coat seal pups have not been harvested since 1987.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> > Lee
Popeye - 06 Feb 2006 19:54 GMT
> http://www.releases.gov.nl.ca/releases/2005/fishaq/0316n06.htm
>
> here's a cite. it's in our legislation as banned. is there a link to
> the US Humane Society saying this still goes on?

 Thanks, but, murder, for instance, is banned in the U.S..

 I can probably get you a cite.

 I was looking for something more indicative of the fact that the practice
had actually ceased.

Q & A SESSIONS:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
QUESTIONS & ANSWERS ABOUT THE CANADIAN SEAL HUNT

---------------------------------------------------------------

PLEASE HELP US
BY DONATING $, TIME OR EFFORT
HARPSEALS.ORG needs your help to help the seals...

A dying seal spews blood after being "stunned".

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you want to be part of the monumental effort needed to change the
situation for the seals, please get involved.
Click here for details.

WHITECOAT PHOTO NOTE & DEDICATION:
Harpseals.org dedicates this photo to:

1) all the seal hunt PROPONENTS out there who HATE the fact that us seal
hunt OPPONENTS occasionally use images of white baby seals on our website to
engage emotion and energy against their cherished slaughter.

2) all the grey baby harpseals that the white baby harpseals turn into
(molt) at the ripe old age of 10-14 days, who have died at the clubs and
knives of the killers.

NOTE:
We acknowledge that the commercial harpseal hunt in Canada DOES NOT
(officially) kill baby whitecoated harpseals since 1983, but that INSTEAD,
kills higher numbers of baby greycoated harpseals NOW than ever before -in
the same exact manner they have done for hundreds of years: beat them to
death using clubs, sticks, and hakapiks.

1) Wasn't this hunt stopped in the 70's? I thought that Brigitte Bardot and
Greenpeace ended this years ago.
What's up?
   A: Since the first protest in 1955, those who wished to stop the killing
have filmed the horrors, published articles about it, obtained proclamations
from foreign governments in opposition to the killing, proposed and
facilitated alternative sources of income for seal killers, written
countless letters to Canadian officials, and staged demonstrations around
the world.

The U.S. Congress even introduced legislation in 1972 to ban the importation
of commodities made from marine mammals, but it wasn't until a worldwide
outcry led to European actions in the 1980's- the ban on the importation of
baby seal pelts (whitecoates) in 1983, and the threat of a boycott of
Canadian fish products in 1987- that the killing declined dramatically. But
it never ended.

The Canadian government and the seal-killing industry worked tirelessly to
develop new markets to replace those eliminated by these actions; and the
government required that seal killers wait until seal pups molted at about 2
weeks of age, when, according to the government, they become adults.

An average of 60,000 seals were killed each year between 1984 and 1994. In
1995, the commercial hunt was resumed when a Newfoundlander named Brian
Tobin became the Minister of Fisheries. This was two years after the cod
fishery collapsed due to over-fishing. The fishermen blamed the seals for
the decline of the cod and demanded a kill. Since 1994, the kill quota has
risen each year. Markets were developed in Asia; and seal skins were sold in
the seal killing nation, Norway, as well as in Denmark, Poland, Estonia, and
Greece.

The three year plan ending this year (2005) was to kill almost one million
seals. When the "struck and lost" seals are included, the total killed
exceeds one millions, making this the largest marine mammal slaughter in the
world. Still the Newfoundlanders are not satisfied and are demanding that
even more seals be killed. Some Newfoundland politicians have called for
eradication.

As an aside, it is a mistake to credit Greenpeace with ending the hunt.
Greenpeace was one of the organizations opposing the hunt between 1976 and
1982. There were many other organizations involved including the
International Fund for Animal Welfare, the Fund for Animals and the Sea
Shepherd Conservation Society. From 1984 until this year Greenpeace
refrained from actively opposing the hunt. (see more details about the
annual Canadian seal slaughter)

2) Where do the pelts go? Are any sold in Canada? What country buys the most
pelts?
      A: Most of the pelts are first purchased by processors in
Newfoundland. The main companies are Carino, based in South Dildo,
Newfoundland, and Atlantic Marine Products, with its main plant in Catalina,
Newfoundland.

Carino is a subsidiary of a Norwegian company named Karl Rieber & Sons based
in Bergen, Norway. Atlantic Marine Products is a subsidiary of the Barry
Group, a major seafood processor and exporter in Atlantic Canada.

After the pelts are processed, some are sold in Canada but most are imported
into Norway. In 2004, other major importers were Greenland, Germany, China,
Poland, Denmark, Hong Kong, Greece, France, Russia, and South Korea (in
order from most to least number of pelts imported).

In prior years, Ukraine, Estonia, and Japan also imported large numbers of
pelts. The pelts are sold in Canada, Europe, Asia, and possibly other parts
of the world, but they are not sold in the United States due to the Marine
Mammal Protection Act.

The Canadian government is currently developing plans to subvert this
treasured environmental protection through such measures as appeals to
international trade ruling boards. The slaughter of the seals is not by
itself economically viable. The current wholesale price of seal skins
provides greater incentives to the sealers; but without government
subsidies, including the work of the Coast Guard in carving paths through
the ice for the sealing boats, the commercial seal "hunt" would not survive.
(see more details about the seal skins and fur market).

3) What happens to the meat of the seals after they are killed?
    A: Most of the meat is wasted and left on the ice. Some if it is sold
to fur farms and some is ground up into animal feed. A few thousand seal
flippers are sold for human consumption in Newfoundland. There is also a
growing black market demand for the seal penis bone in the Far East as some
sort of voodoo quack remedy for impotence.

4) Why do they kill them with clubs? Why not use bullets?
    A: Most of the younger seals are killed with clubs or hakapiks in order
to not downgrade their pelts with a bullet hole. Since older seals are
faster, more aggressive, and can swim, most are shot at a distance with high
powered rifles to limit their efforts at escape. (unless it's a clean shot,
most wounded seals will head for the nearest open water where they often
will simply slip away under the ice and perish.)

Some seals are caught in nets and die from drowning. Many seals are run down
in the ice, especially by the Canadian government ice-breakers. (see the
Annual Slaughter page for more details about the hunt)

5) You guys (opposing the seal hunt) aren't against native peoples surving
and subsisting off seals, are you? What gives?
    A: There are no indigenous peoples involved in the East coast Canadian
seal hunt. Seals hunted by Inuit or Native people in the North are taken in
the arctic and are primarily ringed seals. The Harp and Hood seals are
hunted in the Gulf of St.Lawrence by residents of the Magdalen Islands in
Quebec. These are French speaking people. The other location is called the
Newfoundland Front in the Atlantic and this hunt is conducted by
Newfoundlanders.

As a point of interest there are no native people in Newfoundland. The last
member of the Beothuk nation, the indigenous peoples of Newfoundland, died
in 1912. The Newfoundlanders had a bounty on the Beothuk and most were slain
by MicMac Indian bounty hunters from New Brunswick and Quebec.
Newfoundlanders also drove the Newfoundland wolf, the walrus, and the
Labrador duck to extinction and extirpated the polar bear, and the pilot
whale from Newfoundland territory....

6) Is there a blackmarket for any seal products?
    A: With the exception of the seal penis bone market in Asia, there is
not really a black market for seal products because there is little demand
for them. However, whenever a sealer exceeds his quota, there are no legal
consequences. Sealers in Canada have a license to torture, mutilate, and
kill over quota without fear of repercussions.(see the Annual Slaughter page
for more details about the hunt)

7) If polls show that the majority of Canadian citizens are against the
hunt, why don't they just stop it with a vote?
    A: The Canadian Department of Fisheries and Oceans is a bureaucracy run
primarily by Newfoundlanders. They set the policy. Politicians have
basically rubber-stamped the wishes of the bureaucrats. Most of the
Fisheries Ministers have hailed from Newfoundland.

Another problem is that there is much competition between the political
parties to control Newfoundland and any party that opposes the seal hunt is
out of the running. Therefore the parties have all agreed to support the
hunt, leaving no alternatives for people who are opposed to the hunt. Even
the Green Party of Newfoundland supports the seal kill for fear of losing
votes. (see the Politics, Propaganda, and Culture page for more insight)

8) What advantages or positive things does Canada get from the seal hunt?
    A: Canada receives a great deal of bad press because of the seal
slaughter. It does not receive much in the way of income and the seal hunt
contributes nothing to the Gross National Product of the country. On the
contrary, the hunt is a negative drain on the economy because of tax dollars
spent to subsidize it. (see the Politics, Propaganda, and Culture page for
more insight)

9) There's a war going on and other animal species going exctinct all around
the world. Why should I care about Canadian seals?
    A: There is always a war going on someplace. People are continually
fighting amongst themselves. There is also another war going on and that is
the war against nature and against wildlife. All marine mammals are faced
with extinction because of hunting, pollution and destruction of habitat and
carrying capacity. There is no justification for waging this, the world's
second largest slaughter of a mammalian species (second only to the
Kangaroo, in Australia) and the largest slaughter of any marine mammals.

In addition the hunt is cruel, vanity and greed driven by luxury, (pelts),
economically wasteful, propped up by subsidies and bolstered by propaganda.

10) What can I do about it?
    A: Get involved. Check out our "what you can do to help end the
killing" page for ideas on opposing the slaughter of seals...

Or, better yet, just cut to the chase and sign up now to help the seals!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

FOR MORE QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS ABOUT THE SEAL HUNT (asked by a Newfoundland
college student) click here

* Or, perhaps you have others? Feel free to send us one of your own and
we'll try and get you a solid answer.

 http://www.harpseals.org/hunt/faqs.html

>> >> The cute, white coat seal pups have not been harvested since 1987.
>> >
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>>
>> > Lee
Lee Bell - 06 Feb 2006 20:33 GMT
I think even John will be able to understand this one.

Thanks, Doug.

I started this thinking that I would like confirmation of the annual seal
slaughter before deciding what I, personally, should do about it.  I now
have the confirmation.  I still don't know what I'm going to do about it,
but I think I'll start by boycotting all seafood products produced in Canada
and any of the countries listed as markets for the pelts that are produced.
Since the seal hunts are a government sponsored event, I'll consider whether
to boycott all other Canadian products.

Others, of course, are free to decide for themselves.

Lee
Popeye - 06 Feb 2006 21:11 GMT
>I think even John will be able to understand this one.
>
> Thanks, Doug.

 I'm sending you a Cinnamon Girls mp3 of "Brown Eyed Girl".

> I started this thinking that I would like confirmation of the annual seal
> slaughter before deciding what I, personally, should do about it.  I now
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Others, of course, are free to decide for themselves.

 Think I'll send 'em a check. :-)

> Lee
Lee Bell - 06 Feb 2006 21:21 GMT
>  I'm sending you a Cinnamon Girls mp3 of "Brown Eyed Girl".

I'll watch for it.

>  Think I'll send 'em a check. :-)

I may do that too, but not just yet.  I'm sure I'm against the slaughter,
but that's not the same thing as being for organizations that are on the
same side.  I like to be sure before I send money.  It's too late once it's
gone.

I'll also be giving some thought to how much, if any, of an activist I want
to be locally.  S. Florida is a major tourist destination for French
Canadians.  Perhaps they would hear the message here better than they seem
to at home.

Lee
Popeye - 06 Feb 2006 21:42 GMT
>>  I'm sending you a Cinnamon Girls mp3 of "Brown Eyed Girl".
>
> I'll watch for it.

 I'm downloading a James Lee Burke, it'll be on the way after that.

>>  Think I'll send 'em a check. :-)
>
> I may do that too, but not just yet.  I'm sure I'm against the slaughter,
> but that's not the same thing as being for organizations that are on the
> same side.  I like to be sure before I send money.  It's too late once
> it's gone.

 John will accuse me of supporting a terrorist organization.

> I'll also be giving some thought to how much, if any, of an activist I
> want to be locally.  S. Florida is a major tourist destination for French
> Canadians.  Perhaps they would hear the message here better than they seem
> to at home.

 I was at Red Lobster last night with the twins, and the waitress or
somebody referred to them as "Snow Mexicans", after a tipping incident, of
course (I tipped $40 0n 163, enough to render the average Canadian
unconscious).

 I almost pissed myself.

 I haven't decided whether that's a racist comment yet (to the Mexicans),
or just a clever insult.
Grumman-581 - 07 Feb 2006 05:43 GMT
> I'll also be giving some thought to how much, if any, of an activist I want
> to be locally.  S. Florida is a major tourist destination for French
> Canadians.  Perhaps they would hear the message here better than they seem
> to at home.

Hell, I figure we should be glad that at least some of the Canucks are
willing to at least kill *something*... Maybe there's hope for 'em yet...
Matthias Voss - 07 Feb 2006 00:13 GMT
>>I think even John will be able to understand this one.
>>
>>Thanks, Doug.
>
>   I'm sending you a Cinnamon Girls mp3 of "Brown Eyed Girl".

? Cinnamon Girl is by Neil Young, Brown Eyed Girl by Van
Morrison?
Cinnamon Girls is a group covering Van Morrison?

Matthias
Popeye - 07 Feb 2006 00:35 GMT
>>>I think even John will be able to understand this one.
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> ? Cinnamon Girl is by Neil Young, Brown Eyed Girl by Van Morrison?
> Cinnamon Girls is a group covering Van Morrison?

 Same song, but the Cinnamon Girls are covering Popeye. :-)

 I'll cc you.

 It's a big file, though.

> Matthias
JOF - 06 Feb 2006 22:24 GMT
>WHITECOAT PHOTO NOTE & DEDICATION:
>Harpseals.org dedicates this photo to:
>
>1) all the seal hunt PROPONENTS out there who HATE the fact that us seal
>hunt OPPONENTS occasionally use images of white baby seals on our website to
>engage emotion and energy against their cherished slaughter.

And how many times have you jumped my frame about touchy feely tug at
the heart strings response crap?  

Yer a riot, Alice.

JF
Popeye - 07 Feb 2006 00:32 GMT
>>WHITECOAT PHOTO NOTE & DEDICATION:
>>Harpseals.org dedicates this photo to:
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Yer a riot, Alice.

 Sucks to be you lately, eh?

> JF
Lee Bell - 07 Feb 2006 01:07 GMT
>>1) all the seal hunt PROPONENTS out there who HATE the fact that us seal
>>hunt OPPONENTS occasionally use images of white baby seals on our website
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> And how many times have you jumped my frame about touchy feely tug at
> the heart strings response crap?

Is that how you see the deliberate extinction of a marine mammal species, as
touchy feely tug at the heart strings response crap?  That is, you know, the
issue.

This not a discussion of we can't trust everybody, so we won't trust
anybody.  You are defending those who are deliberately and systematically,
killing seals with the full intent, if allowed, to completely eliminate the
species.  Are you sure this is a cause you wish to champion, even if it is
your country and your government doing it?

Lee
Cam - 07 Feb 2006 19:08 GMT
> >WHITECOAT PHOTO NOTE & DEDICATION:
> >Harpseals.org dedicates this photo to:
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> JF

He's an anti-hunting hakapik grabber.

Cam
Popeye - 07 Feb 2006 22:50 GMT
>> >WHITECOAT PHOTO NOTE & DEDICATION:
>> >Harpseals.org dedicates this photo to:
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> He's an anti-hunting hakapik grabber.

 Beats being a Hakapikhugging clubnut.

> Cam
Scott - 11 Feb 2006 01:47 GMT
> >> >WHITECOAT PHOTO NOTE & DEDICATION:
> >> >Harpseals.org dedicates this photo to:
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
>   Beats being a Hakapikhugging clubnut.

Or a cocksucker.
Matthias Voss - 04 Feb 2006 23:36 GMT
>>This is all true.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> The cute, white coat seal pups have not been harvested since 1987.

Sorry. Mr. Jens Paschke(Then with "Aldebaran Marine Research
and Broadcast) filmed the slaughter in 1997 or 1998. He was
onboard the Sea Shepherd. I saw his pictures.

Matthias
Dennis (Icarus) - 05 Feb 2006 01:17 GMT
> >>This is all true.
> >>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> and Broadcast) filmed the slaughter in 1997 or 1998. He was
> onboard the Sea Shepherd. I saw his pictures.

Perhaps they weren't cute, or had a touch of premature gray in their coats,
that made it ok.

Dennis

> Matthias
Mike from Ottawa - 05 Feb 2006 22:05 GMT
>>>This is all true.
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
>Matthias

Are you sure about the accuracy of the dates?  Watson split off from
Greenpeace, and some say he was kicked out.  He's rammed ships at sea,
risking human lives as well as property.  He calls himself, pompously,
"Captain," and is often described as an "ecoterrorist."

Even pre-1987, I've always had a problem with the anthropomorphic
tendencies of some people.  Were any of the "slaughters" any worse
than what happens in abattoirs?  The people doing the harvesting have
never been evil people; they're tough, humourous people eking out a
rather meagre living from the sea.  Just like the Greenlanders,
Norwegians and Russians who also harvest seals.

---
Mike from Ottawa
Rod - 05 Feb 2006 23:32 GMT
>>>>This is all true.
>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
>---
>Mike from Ottawa
so what you want is a PC solution. Don't want to commit or take a real
stance, how Canadian
Matthias Voss - 05 Feb 2006 23:47 GMT
>>>>This is all true.
>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> Are you sure about the accuracy of the dates?

Yes. I worked with Paschke from 1996 to 1999. Me as an
underwater filmer, above the surface with him in some
projects as lighting assistent.

>  Watson split off from
> Greenpeace, and some say he was kicked out.

Some say he "kicked" McTaggart. Of course his book "Ocean
Warrior" is written subjectively, but nevertheless an
interesting reading, and I do no tdoubt his sincereness and
distinction.

> He's rammed ships at sea,
> risking human lives as well as property.

Yes. Is was beeing rammed as well, and mostly by much larger
ships.

>  He calls himself, pompously,
> "Captain,"

He is one.

> and is often described as an "ecoterrorist."

Pointing with fingers... mind there are always some fingers
pointing backwards.

> Even pre-1987, I've always had a problem with the anthropomorphic
> tendencies of some people.  Were any of the "slaughters" any worse
> than what happens in abattoirs?

It is not a question of worse or not. They are plainly
different. There is a common consent, that for a big part of
the population, meat is an essential part of human food.
Livestock meat, that is. Raised at farms.

To honour the anthropomorphic argument, one should well
reflect of one would be able to kill one's dear sow, cow,
dog, cat, to eat it some day.

Quite clearly seals benefit form their big eyes, and their
non-role as livestock. And that is exactly where ecologic,
economic, politic thinking starts.

What else than hunting seals the canadian government has to
offer to fishermen being threatened by unemployment? And,
should it have someone else to offer?

> The people doing the harvesting have
> never been evil people; they're tough, humourous people eking out a
> rather meagre living from the sea.  Just like the Greenlanders,
> Norwegians and Russians who also harvest seals.

I don't doubt that they are anywhere different than the rest
of us. They are just doing and defending the wrong thing.

And they should not be mixed up with indigenous people who
hunt in the wilderness on a regular basis for their
survival, like the Inuit, who hunt seals and use _every
part_ of their body, for their own sake.

Matthias

> ---
> Mike from Ottawa
Mike from Ottawa - 06 Feb 2006 01:01 GMT
<snip>

>>>>The cute, white coat seal pups have not been harvested since 1987.
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>underwater filmer, above the surface with him in some
>projects as lighting assistent.

Did you see the "slaughter?"  Were people killing white coats?  If so,
did someone inform the authorities?  Did the authorities respond or
ignore it?  If they ignored your pleas, then you have a point.

>>  Watson split off from
>> Greenpeace, and some say he was kicked out.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>interesting reading, and I do no tdoubt his sincereness and
>distinction.

There are a lot of sincere people who stretch the truth.

>> He's rammed ships at sea,
>> risking human lives as well as property.
>
>Yes. Is was beeing rammed as well, and mostly by much larger
>ships.

You can't reasonably return the favour and expect to be seen in a
favourable light.

>>  He calls himself, pompously,
>> "Captain,"

Even when he's not on the boat?

>He is one.
>
>> and is often described as an "ecoterrorist."
>
>Pointing with fingers... mind there are always some fingers
>pointing backwards.

There are always fingers pointing in all directions, and that's where
I tend to question both sides.

I certainly don't condone anti-abortionists shooting doctors who
perform abortions.  You can't pretend to protect life by taking life.
Many of these animal rights groups are prepared to hurt or kill people
in defence of animals -- the height of hypocrisy.

>> Even pre-1987, I've always had a problem with the anthropomorphic
>> tendencies of some people.  Were any of the "slaughters" any worse
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>the population, meat is an essential part of human food.
>Livestock meat, that is. Raised at farms.

People have also hunted for millenia.  What is the real difference
between killing animals while hunting or killing livestock that you've
raised on your farm?  Killing is killing, isn't it?  If people want to
be true animal-helpers, they should be 100% vegetarians; the rest of
us are complicit in the killing and consumption of animals.  If you
only wear a leather coat, you're still complicit.

>To honour the anthropomorphic argument, one should well
>reflect of one would be able to kill one's dear sow, cow,
>dog, cat, to eat it some day.

Koreans eat dogs.  I don't and wouldn't, but I respect their culture.

>Quite clearly seals benefit form their big eyes, and their
>non-role as livestock. And that is exactly where ecologic,
>economic, politic thinking starts.

OK, but why don't you also consider deer?  They have big eyes, too,
and Walt Disney painted an evil picture of all hunters with "Bambi."
Reality isn't Disney.  FWIW, I'm not a hunter.

>What else than hunting seals the canadian government has to
>offer to fishermen being threatened by unemployment? And,
>should it have someone else to offer?

Well, I know of one Newfoundlander who recently returned home and
still works with us.  He's a very long-distance telecommuter, but many
in a conference call have no idea he's so far away.  I think that's
part of the answer for Newfoundland, since telecommunications gives us
the opportunity to work anywhere.

>> The people doing the harvesting have
>> never been evil people; they're tough, humourous people eking out a
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>I don't doubt that they are anywhere different than the rest
>of us. They are just doing and defending the wrong thing.

Why?  Are hunters doing and defending the wrong thing?  What wrong
thing?  Are fishermen evil, too?  BTW, I love fishing.  Fishermen and
hunters are amongst the biggest, most active conservationists in North
America.

>And they should not be mixed up with indigenous people who
>hunt in the wilderness on a regular basis for their
>survival, like the Inuit, who hunt seals and use _every
>part_ of their body, for their own sake.

I love being in the wilderness and fending for myself.  But I
eventually return to "civilisation," be that what it may.  We can't
claim that the world around us is 100% wild and has to be protected as
it is, since we've affected most of that world.  We have to be able to
protect and manage our resources, both seals and deer and all types of
flora and fauna.  There are very few places in the world where human
influence hasn't affected the environment.  E.g., we can't completely
protect forests from wildfires, when fire has become an integral part
of the forest's very existence; jack pines can't propogate without
fire, since its pine cones will only open after a fire.

In the same way, seal populations in the Gulf of St Lawrence have very
few natural predators and I understand that their populations have
rebounded and tripled since the 1970s.  We have to wisely manage the
population of all populations, unless you want to suddenly see them
starve and die en masse.  If we've done the wrong thing with seals,
I've yet to hear about it.  Bad press is not science.

---
Mike from Ottawa
Matthias Voss - 06 Feb 2006 12:06 GMT
>>>>Sorry. Mr. Jens Paschke(Then with "Aldebaran Marine Research
>>>>and Broadcast) filmed the slaughter in 1997 or 1998. He was
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Did you see the "slaughter?"
Paschke filmed them.

> Were people killing white coats?
Yes.
> If so,
> did someone inform the authorities?  Did the authorities respond or
> ignore it?  If they ignored your pleas, then you have a point.

The Coastguard was protecting the poachers. Their vessels
where hindering the M/S Sea Shepherd III to appraoch the
killing scene by more than one mile.
Paschke and a few others left the ship on their own risk and
filmed the slayings.
This was in 1998. Teh film was schown at Vox "Tierzeit" in 1999.

Special note: In the 1998 campaign there was a multitude of
efforts to help the fishermen. A German textile business
developped successfuly process to use the hairs of the white
coats in bed sheets, maintaining their full isolation
properties. ( White coats lose their white hairs completely,
when they have grown the grey hairs underneath. The white
fur can be brushed from them nearly without loss, and they
let it happen, and don't suffer from the process.

The Canadian Fishery ministery gave room for an experiment
in this, but stopped it soon later for no apparent reason.
It was said that the fishreman did not like it.

>>>He's rammed ships at sea,
>>>risking human lives as well as property.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> You can't reasonably return the favour and expect to be seen in a
> favourable light.

Ramming the Sierra whale poachers was one of the best things
ever happening at Sea since Trafalgar. And hats off to the
S.E.A.L. team who blasted her finally to the ground.

>>> He calls himself, pompously,
>>>"Captain,"
>
> Even when he's not on the boat?

>>He is one.

Tell me what you'd do with an answer if you got one...

>>>and is often described as an "ecoterrorist."
>>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> There are always fingers pointing in all directions, and that's where
> I tend to question both sides.

So lets agree that ecoterrorism has good sides, and
downsides. I count Paul Watson on the good side.

> I certainly don't condone anti-abortionists shooting doctors who
> perform abortions.  You can't pretend to protect life by taking life.
> Many of these animal rights groups are prepared to hurt or kill people
> in defence of animals -- the height of hypocrisy.

Indeed. But what they protect in reality, is their revenues
from collecting money from stupid people.
"Animal Peace " in Germany gets half a 300.000 Euro a year,
a big part of it from fraud. The whole top section are
criminals.

>>>Even pre-1987, I've always had a problem with the anthropomorphic
>>>tendencies of some people.  Were any of the "slaughters" any worse
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> between killing animals while hunting or killing livestock that you've
> raised on your farm?

One is no longer part of our economy. Of our ecology,
hunting, yes, to a very limited degree.

> Killing is killing, isn't it?  If people want to
> be true animal-helpers, they should be 100% vegetarians; the rest of
> us are complicit in the killing and consumption of animals.  If you
> only wear a leather coat, you're still complicit.

No. You wearing a leather coat, in the first place.
But anyone eating meat, wearing  fur, should be prepared to
kill his game would he be forced to do it out of need.

>>To honour the anthropomorphic argument, one should well
>>reflect of one would be able to kill one's dear sow, cow,
>>dog, cat, to eat it some day.

> Koreans eat dogs.  I don't and wouldn't, but I respect their culture.

They also eat a monkey's brain from the living animal. I
don't and wouldn't, and don't respect their culture for that
sake.

See, there is nothing to win by using such arguments.

>>Quite clearly seals benefit form their big eyes, and their
>>non-role as livestock. And that is exactly where ecologic,
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> and Walt Disney painted an evil picture of all hunters with "Bambi."
> Reality isn't Disney.  FWIW, I'm not a hunter.

Dear are well considered, and do harm to trees. There is
much to many of them in German forest. They lack a natural
predator. We should allow wolves to come here again.

>>What else than hunting seals the canadian government has to
>>offer to fishermen being threatened by unemployment? And,
>>should it have someone else to offer?

See above. The bed holstery business would be ready for the
combed hairs. Many more people woul benefit from that. Think
of elder divers with rheumatic pains.

Strange enough, the Canadian Fishery forbid white-coat
combing, but allowed the killing.

The Secretary of course used the old argument that they eat
the cod... When he was shown evidence( from scientific seal
stomach contents analyses, showing that cod is a 5% contents
only in seals, the rest being fish of no interest for fishery)

> Well, I know of one Newfoundlander who recently returned home and
> still works with us.  He's a very long-distance telecommuter, but many
> in a conference call have no idea he's so far away.  I think that's
> part of the answer for Newfoundland, since telecommunications gives us
> the opportunity to work anywhere.

This obviously affords the ability to talk sensibly and use
a phone. How is education among the fishermen, in general?

>>>The people doing the harvesting have
>>>never been evil people; they're tough, humourous people eking out a
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>>I don't doubt that they are anywhere different than the rest
>>of us. They are just doing and defending the wrong thing.

> Why?  Are hunters doing and defending the wrong thing?  What wrong
> thing?

The wrong context. The reasons for the seal poaching are
fake, and submit the poachers to international content.
In reality, they are the dummies for the government.

> Are fishermen evil, too?  BTW, I love fishing.  Fishermen and
> hunters are amongst the biggest, most active conservationists in North
> America.

No doubt. but what would you think of fishermen
mass-dynamiting the fish because they eat mosquitos, the
favorite food of swallows.
Only because there are fishermen angling from a canoe, and
others trawling at Green Bank, doesn't mean there is any
value in putting them into the same kettle.

> I love being in the wilderness and fending for myself.  But I
> eventually return to "civilisation," be that what it may.  We can't
> claim that the world around us is 100% wild and has to be protected as
> it is, since we've affected most of that world.  We have to be able to
> protect and manage our resources, both seals and deer and all types of
> flora and fauna.

Seals are a resource only to those Inuit and northern people
 to whom tehy constitute a base for survival.
There is a very easy and cost effecitve way of "managing
seal resources". Don't kill the whales. Don't use low
frequency long range sonar. Don't pollute the environmnent.

 There are very few places in the world where human
> influence hasn't affected the environment.  E.g., we can't completely
> protect forests from wildfires, when fire has become an integral part
> of the forest's very existence; jack pines can't propogate without
> fire, since its pine cones will only open after a fire.

But we could prevent the misuse of man made fire to open up
areas for housing projects, by forbidding those projects on
burnt ground.

> In the same way, seal populations in the Gulf of St Lawrence have very
> few natural predators

They have. Orcas, and Sharks.

> and I understand that their populations have
> rebounded and tripled since the 1970s.  We have to wisely manage the
> population of all populations, unless you want to suddenly see them
> starve and die en masse.

We don't have to manage anything like that. Because seals do
no harm. Because we should refrain from managed something we
don't understand. Because we should refrain from managing
something for the wrong reasons.

 If we've done the wrong thing with seals,
> I've yet to hear about it.  Bad press is not science.

Just get the cotton out.

Matthias

> ---
> Mike from Ottawa
Mike from Ottawa - 09 Feb 2006 04:32 GMT
>>>>>Sorry. Mr. Jens Paschke(Then with "Aldebaran Marine Research
>>>>>and Broadcast) filmed the slaughter in 1997 or 1998. He was
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>> Did you see the "slaughter?"
>Paschke filmed them.

The question was "did you see the slaughter?"  Personally.  I didn't
ask if someone filmed it and told you it was filmed yesterday.

>> Were people killing white coats?
>Yes.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>filmed the slayings.
>This was in 1998. Teh film was schown at Vox "Tierzeit" in 1999.

Any proof?

>Special note: In the 1998 campaign there was a multitude of
>efforts to help the fishermen. A German textile business
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>in this, but stopped it soon later for no apparent reason.
>It was said that the fishreman did not like it.

Cites?  I've never heard of this one, and it sounds very odd.

>>>>He's rammed ships at sea,
>>>>risking human lives as well as property.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>ever happening at Sea since Trafalgar. And hats off to the
>S.E.A.L. team who blasted her finally to the ground.

Then I guess it works for both sides.  Chaos and violence on the high
seas.

I have no idea about this SEAL team you're talking about.

How will you feel when he finally does hurt someone?  Or kills
someone?  Is that justified?  If you and Watson think it is, then the
others are just as justified in ramming and sinking Watson as
self-defence.

>>>> He calls himself, pompously,
>>>>"Captain,"
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>Tell me what you'd do with an answer if you got one...

I'm captain of my canoe.  What's your point?  Do you have any?

>>>>and is often described as an "ecoterrorist."
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>So lets agree that ecoterrorism has good sides, and
>downsides. I count Paul Watson on the good side.

Fine, but I count him as a nut and an eco-terrorist who is a danger to
others and to his causes.

<snip>
>> People have also hunted for millenia.  What is the real difference
>> between killing animals while hunting or killing livestock that you've
>> raised on your farm?
>
>One is no longer part of our economy. Of our ecology,
>hunting, yes, to a very limited degree.

Maybe in Deutschland, but in Canada a lot of people are hunters.
Speaking for yourself or do you need to get your facts straight?

> > Killing is killing, isn't it?  If people want to
>> be true animal-helpers, they should be 100% vegetarians; the rest of
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>But anyone eating meat, wearing  fur, should be prepared to
>kill his game would he be forced to do it out of need.

That's really pretty silly.  Do you really live by that?

>>>To honour the anthropomorphic argument, one should well
>>>reflect of one would be able to kill one's dear sow, cow,
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>don't and wouldn't, and don't respect their culture for that
>sake.

Goody for you.  Would it be OK if they first killed the monkey?  Are
the Koreans OK or not?  Why wouldn't you respect their culture?  If
monkeys and dogs are not good, are cats?  What about parakeets?
Lizards?  Insects?  Where do you draw the line?  How cute it is?

>See, there is nothing to win by using such arguments.

Yeah, you're just too brilliant for me.

>>>Quite clearly seals benefit form their big eyes, and their
>>>non-role as livestock. And that is exactly where ecologic,
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>much to many of them in German forest. They lack a natural
>predator. We should allow wolves to come here again.

We already have plenty of wolves and they're protected.  Time for the
Germans to catch up to us.

>>>What else than hunting seals the canadian government has to
>>>offer to fishermen being threatened by unemployment? And,
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>Strange enough, the Canadian Fishery forbid white-coat
>combing, but allowed the killing.

You'd be disturbing the seal pups and that's OK to you?  Got any cites
for this "combing" stuff?  I've never heard of that one before,
half-baked as it smells.

>The Secretary of course used the old argument that they eat
>the cod... When he was shown evidence( from scientific seal
>stomach contents analyses, showing that cod is a 5% contents
>only in seals, the rest being fish of no interest for fishery)

We don't have Secretaries.  I really don't know or care too much about
how much cod they eat.  There just isn't many cod left.

>> Well, I know of one Newfoundlander who recently returned home and
>> still works with us.  He's a very long-distance telecommuter, but many
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>This obviously affords the ability to talk sensibly and use
>a phone. How is education among the fishermen, in general?

Can you talk sensibly and use a phone?  Just curious, since some
Newfoundlanders would like to know.

>>>>The people doing the harvesting have
>>>>never been evil people; they're tough, humourous people eking out a
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>fake, and submit the poachers to international content.
>In reality, they are the dummies for the government.

You'd better also go talk to the Greenlanders/Danes, Norse and
Russians.  Tell them what to do in their waters, and tell them it's
"poaching."  We'll come over and harangue you about the lack of wolves
in your almost non-existent forests.

>> Are fishermen evil, too?  BTW, I love fishing.  Fishermen and
>> hunters are amongst the biggest, most active conservationists in North
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>others trawling at Green Bank, doesn't mean there is any
>value in putting them into the same kettle.

Check the stats.  Given the numbers of hobby fishermen on this
continent, game species are often re-stocked in lakes.  That's a lot
of pressure.  Some practise catch-and-release and many don't.  Are you
"for" animals or not?  Why do you think you can have it both ways? Are
fish too ugly for you?

>> I love being in the wilderness and fending for myself.  But I
>> eventually return to "civilisation," be that what it may.  We can't
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>seal resources". Don't kill the whales. Don't use low
>frequency long range sonar. Don't pollute the environmnent.

The Inuit also go whaling.  Wanna stop that, too?  Save the whales.

>  There are very few places in the world where human
>> influence hasn't affected the environment.  E.g., we can't completely
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>areas for housing projects, by forbidding those projects on
>burnt ground.

Fine, then run along and control human populations.  We're far too
numerous anyways.

>> In the same way, seal populations in the Gulf of St Lawrence have very
>> few natural predators
>
>They have. Orcas, and Sharks.

In the Gulf of St Lawrence?  Get real.  Too far north for either.  You
might get the odd lost shark and that's about it.

>> and I understand that their populations have
>> rebounded and tripled since the 1970s.  We have to wisely manage the
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>don't understand. Because we should refrain from managing
>something for the wrong reasons.

So don't manage deer?  Buy you said they cause problems.  Make up your
mind if you can.

>  If we've done the wrong thing with seals,
>> I've yet to hear about it.  Bad press is not science.
>
>Just get the cotton out.

Or stuff the cotton in, put on the blinders and wrap yourself in
Captain Watson's pirate flag.

---
Mike from Ottawa
Matthias Voss - 09 Feb 2006 10:59 GMT
>>>>>>Sorry. Mr. Jens Paschke(Then with "Aldebaran Marine Research
>>>>>>and Broadcast) filmed the slaughter in 1997 or 1998. He was
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> The question was "did you see the slaughter?"  Personally.  I didn't
> ask if someone filmed it and told you it was filmed yesterday.

It is pretty dumb to ask me that, when I just told you that
it was not me who was there, but a friend.

>>>Were people killing white coats?
>>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> Any proof?

A proof that TV was invented then?

>>Special note: In the 1998 campaign there was a multitude of
>>efforts to help the fishermen. A German textile business
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> Then I guess it works for both sides.  Chaos and violence on the high
> seas.

How dumb can you get? The Sierra people were criminals.
They needed to be punished.

> I have no idea about this SEAL team you're talking about.

No problem. I do <eg>.

> How will you feel when he finally does hurt someone?  Or kills
> someone?  Is that justified?  If you and Watson think it is, then the
> others are just as justified in ramming and sinking Watson as
> self-defence.

He does state and act so that nobody is intentionally hurt
or killed.

> I'm captain of my canoe.  What's your point?  Do you have any?

Why slould when you are making mine.

>>So lets agree that ecoterrorism has good sides, and
>>downsides. I count Paul Watson on the good side.
>
> Fine, but I count him as a nut and an eco-terrorist who is a danger to
> others and to his causes.

But my support supports his cause, and your misdemeanor
supports nothing.

> <snip>
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Maybe in Deutschland, but in Canada a lot of people are hunters.
> Speaking for yourself or do you need to get your facts straight?

Pls. sharpen your comprehension skills. The number of
hunters is not related to their role in ecology. In general,
  hunters hunt for game, and not for ecologic management.
Feel free to prove otherwise.

>>>Killing is killing, isn't it?  If people want to
>>>be true animal-helpers, they should be 100% vegetarians; the rest of
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> That's really pretty silly.  Do you really live by that?

It is not in any way silly to be able to kill and skin game,
to be able to survive by the same means as our ancestors. It
gives a better understanding and respect of life and death
and saves you from whining like the PETA people.

>>>>To honour the anthropomorphic argument, one should well
>>>>reflect of one would be able to kill one's dear sow, cow,
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>>don't and wouldn't, and don't respect their culture for that
>>sake.

> Goody for you.  Would it be OK if they first killed the monkey?  Are
> the Koreans OK or not?  Why wouldn't you respect their culture?  If
> monkeys and dogs are not good, are cats?  What about parakeets?
> Lizards?  Insects?  Where do you draw the line?  How cute it is?

Quite simple. Use your judgement.
Imagine your kids would meet new kids on the black. A pair
of twins, for example.
You have seen the one kid killing cockroaches, helping a
beetle out of a spiders web; the other eating a monkeys
brain from the living animal tied down under the table, tis
head protruding through a whole in the table.

Who you'd like your kids to asociate with?

> You'd be disturbing the seal pups and that's OK to you?  

How do you know? Have you been one? Have you ever been in
the water with seals?

>Got any cites
> for this "combing" stuff?  I've never heard of that one before,
> half-baked as it smells.

You seem indeed quite remote from the concerning facts.

>>The Secretary of course used the old argument that they eat
>>the cod... When he was shown evidence( from scientific seal
>>stomach contents analyses, showing that cod is a 5% contents
>>only in seals, the rest being fish of no interest for fishery)
>
> We don't have Secretaries.  

Call them Minister, if you need to.

>I really don't know or care too much about
> how much cod they eat.  There just isn't many cod left.

So all your arguments about population management are fake.
Thanks for stating that.

>>>Well, I know of one Newfoundlander who recently returned home and
>>>still works with us.  He's a very long-distance telecommuter, but many
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Can you talk sensibly and use a phone?  Just curious, since some
> Newfoundlanders would like to know.

I can exchange courtesies, but I don't think I could compete..

>>The wrong context. The reasons for the seal poaching are
>>fake, and submit the poachers to international content.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> "poaching."  We'll come over and harangue you about the lack of wolves
> in your almost non-existent forests.

Mostly we tell them what not to do in international waters,
where for instance whaling regulations by the IWC exists,
and are constantly broken by Iceland, Norway, Thailand, Korea.

But you can't talk alll the time to all people.
Some like to concentrate on the Canadians, and for good reason.

> Check the stats.  Given the numbers of hobby fishermen on this
> continent, game species are often re-stocked in lakes.  That's a lot
> of pressure.  Some practise catch-and-release and many don't.  Are you
> "for" animals or not?  Why do you think you can have it both ways? Are
> fish too ugly for you?

Hobby fishing for the catch and releas thing is borderline.
There are laws against doing unnessecary harm to animals
with a vertebra here, which are not executed well enough. Of
course fishermen tell you fish don't suffer when hooked.
Permanent proff is the pike, which will bite agein subito
once it is released.

When dumbness is the proof of not suffering...
You have not suffered very much lately, did you ?

>>Seals are a resource only to those Inuit and northern people
>> to whom tehy constitute a base for survival.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> The Inuit also go whaling.  Wanna stop that, too?  Save the whales.

Oh how I love differentiate thinking.

>>But we could prevent the misuse of man made fire to open up
>>areas for housing projects, by forbidding those projects on
>>burnt ground.
>
> Fine, then run along and control human populations.  We're far too
> numerous anyways.

A very good idea... Still, have you spent a thought about
the fact, that on that arson-burnt ground, there will be
nobody building low income flats?

>>>In the same way, seal populations in the Gulf of St Lawrence have very
>>>few natural predators
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> In the Gulf of St Lawrence?  Get real.  Too far north for either.  You
> might get the odd lost shark and that's about it.

There are Whites, Blue Shark, Pilgrim Sharks in the Biscaya,
  around Cornwall,Vancouver, Ireland, Mako ( Herring Shark)
in the North Sea, that's the same parallel as St. Lawrence.
There are Orca at the Lofote Islands in Norway, thats far North.

>>>and I understand that their populations have
>>>rebounded and tripled since the 1970s.  We have to wisely manage the
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> So don't manage deer?  Buy you said they cause problems.  Make up your
> mind if you can.

Deer do economical harm to state forest plantations.
The only seal doing harm to fishery is one living near my
place. He has eaten most of the fish out of ones fishermans
net. I love him for that. This fisherman is known for
fishing with illegal nets, and one day I'll nail him for that.

>> If we've done the wrong thing with seals,
>>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Or stuff the cotton in, put on the blinders and wrap yourself in
> Captain Watson's pirate flag.

It is a breach of law to show the Jolly Joker at sea. Unless
you are a canoe.

Matthias
Mike from Ottawa - 10 Feb 2006 06:40 GMT
<snip>
>>>>Did you see the "slaughter?"
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>It is pretty dumb to ask me that, when I just told you that
>it was not me who was there, but a friend.

It's much dumber to avoid answering the question.  You didn't see the
"events" but you accept it as the truth.

>>>>Were people killing white coats?
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
>A proof that TV was invented then?

You must think you're very good at skating.  Just like Spike.  Fine,
don't answer the question; I'll put you down as "has no clue."

>>>Special note: In the 1998 campaign there was a multitude of
>>>efforts to help the fishermen. A German textile business
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>>
>> Cites?  I've never heard of this one, and it sounds very odd.

No cites.  Got it.  Thanks.  A very expensive, time-consuming,
labour-intensive supposed "industry" based on combing the falling
hairs from seal pups.

I went through the bother of running a Google query and got nothing.
And you have nothing to offer.  Case closed.

>>>>>>He's rammed ships at sea,
>>>>>>risking human lives as well as property.
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>How dumb can you get? The Sierra people were criminals.
>They needed to be punished.

How dense can you be?  Killing or injuring people is fine by you.
Thanks.  Got it.  You are your own judge and jury, similar to the
Nazis.

>> I have no idea about this SEAL team you're talking about.
>
>No problem. I do <eg>.

More skating.  Thanks.

>> How will you feel when he finally does hurt someone?  Or kills
>> someone?  Is that justified?  If you and Watson think it is, then the
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
>Why slould when you are making mine.

And even more skating.

>>>So lets agree that ecoterrorism has good sides, and
>>>downsides. I count Paul Watson on the good side.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>But my support supports his cause, and your misdemeanor
>supports nothing.

My "misdemeanour?"  What the hell are you talking about?  2 minutes
for obfuscation.

>> <snip>
>>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>   hunters hunt for game, and not for ecologic management.
>Feel free to prove otherwise.

Your comprehension skills are non-existent.  Hunters have a role in
ecology and your failure to realise that is just more evidence of your
lack of comprehension.  Thanks once more.

>>>>Killing is killing, isn't it?  If people want to
>>>>be true animal-helpers, they should be 100% vegetarians; the rest of
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>gives a better understanding and respect of life and death
>and saves you from whining like the PETA people.

Excuse me, but you're the one who's whining.  You said anyone who
wears a leather coat or eats meat should be prepared to kill his own
game, a rather lame and dull contention.

>>>>>To honour the anthropomorphic argument, one should well
>>>>>reflect of one would be able to kill one's dear sow, cow,
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
>Who you'd like your kids to asociate with?

What a load of BS.  You never answered any question.

>> You'd be disturbing the seal pups and that's OK to you?  
>
>How do you know? Have you been one? Have you ever been in
>the water with seals?

You must be an Olympic skater.  No answers, but a lot of ice dancing,
and you must also be the judge.

>>Got any cites
>> for this "combing" stuff?  I've never heard of that one before,
>> half-baked as it smells.
>
>You seem indeed quite remote from the concerning facts.

You are quite remote from answering any.  Cites on your "facts?"

>>>The Secretary of course used the old argument that they eat
>>>the cod... When he was shown evidence( from scientific seal
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>Call them Minister, if you need to.

No, it's OK, you obviously don't care about being precise and you
don't care about facts.

>>I really don't know or care too much about
>> how much cod they eat.  There just isn't many cod left.
>
>So all your arguments about population management are fake.
>Thanks for stating that.

No, that's part of the reason for a need for management.  Obviously.

>>>>Well, I know of one Newfoundlander who recently returned home and
>>>>still works with us.  He's a very long-distance telecommuter, but many
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
>I can exchange courtesies, but I don't think I could compete..

You stopped exchanging courtesies and became insulting.  This stopped
becoming an exchange of opinions and became more like a Spike and
Chester vs the world exchange.  You took a dive into this pool and
I'll continue, at least for a while, until I get completely bored.

>>>The wrong context. The reasons for the seal poaching are
>>>fake, and submit the poachers to international content.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>But you can't talk alll the time to all people.
>Some like to concentrate on the Canadians, and for good reason.

Yeah, whatever.  Find some concrete cites and not from your furry
friend-lovers and I may be willing to listen.  I tend to suspect both
sides and you suspect only one.  You don't see a problem with that?

>> Check the stats.  Given the numbers of hobby fishermen on this
>> continent, game species are often re-stocked in lakes.  That's a lot
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>When dumbness is the proof of not suffering...
>You have not suffered very much lately, did you ?

Are you Chester's brother?  You sound like him.  Or is it Spike --
difficult to tell the difference.

>>>Seals are a resource only to those Inuit and northern people
>>> to whom tehy constitute a base for survival.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>Oh how I love differentiate thinking.

Oh how I love non-thinking from loonies across the ocean.

>>>But we could prevent the misuse of man made fire to open up
>>>areas for housing projects, by forbidding those projects on
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>the fact, that on that arson-burnt ground, there will be
>nobody building low income flats?

What the hell are you babbling about?  We build plenty (but not
enough) low-rental flats.  Do you?  Do you have any clue about
anything?  "Arson-burnt" -- what does that supposed to mean?

>>>>In the same way, seal populations in the Gulf of St Lawrence have very
>>>>few natural predators
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>in the North Sea, that's the same parallel as St. Lawrence.
>There are Orca at the Lofote Islands in Norway, thats far North.

I was talking about the Gulf of St Lawrence, not the Canadian West
Coast or North Sea.  Do try to keep up.  The southernmost point of
Canada is on a parallel with northern California -- does that
necessarily mean the climate is the same?  Are you really that naive,
dull and simplistic?  Do some research and come back when you're
ready.

<snip>
>>>We don't have to manage anything like that. Because seals do
>>>no harm. Because we should refrain from managed something we
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>net. I love him for that. This fisherman is known for
>fishing with illegal nets, and one day I'll nail him for that.

Yeah, whatever, just nail your own fisherman.  Not all fishermen are
fishing with illegal nets, regardless of what you say or imply, and
attempting to paint all fishermen with the same brush is like saying
all Germans are dense based upon a single discussion with one of them.

>>> If we've done the wrong thing with seals,
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>It is a breach of law to show the Jolly Joker at sea. Unless
>you are a canoe.

Are you trying to say I'm a pirate in my canoe or that I am a canoe?

---
Mike from Ottawa
Matthias Voss - 10 Feb 2006 09:42 GMT
> <snip>
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> It's much dumber to avoid answering the question.  You didn't see the
> "events" but you accept it as the truth.

BS, I saw the pics,which the potografer showed me, there
were people familiar to me,and these were paper pics, from
an analogue camera.

>>>>The Coastguard was protecting the poachers. Their vessels
>>>>where hindering the M/S Sea Shepherd III to appraoch the
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> You must think you're very good at skating.  Just like Spike.  Fine,
> don't answer the question; I'll put you down as "has no clue."

I fell honoured. Fact is, the people whom I respect don't
question my sincerety. When I state something was shown in
Vox TV, pls. explain why you doubt it.

> No cites.  Got it.  Thanks.  A very expensive, time-consuming,
> labour-intensive supposed "industry" based on combing the falling
> hairs from seal pups.
>
> I went through the bother of running a Google query and got nothing.
> And you have nothing to offer.  Case closed.

>>>>Ramming the Sierra whale poachers was one of the best things
>>>>ever happening at Sea since Trafalgar. And hats off to the
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> Thanks.  Got it.  You are your own judge and jury, similar to the
> Nazis.

Who was killed on the Sierra I, Sierra II, on the M/S Sea
Sheperd I,II,II, Farlay Mowat??

>>>I have no idea about this SEAL team you're talking about.
>>
>>No problem. I do <eg>.
>
> More skating.  Thanks.

Sorry. This information is not available to you.

>>>You'd be disturbing the seal pups and that's OK to you?  
>>
>>How do you know? Have you been one? Have you ever been in
>>the water with seals?

> No, it's OK, you obviously don't care about being precise and you
> don't care about facts.

About which facts specifically I do not care?

One seal slain on a foto which shows as well someone I know
is facts enough for me.
If you have your nose brought down to the facts, join Paul
Watson.
Or just learn that the seal slaying program is nothing else
than an emplyment program for otherwise unemployed
fishermen, and the "seals problem" nothing else but a scape
goat.

>>>I really don't know or care too much about
>>>how much cod they eat.  There just isn't many cod left.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> No, that's part of the reason for a need for management.  Obviously.

Bullshit. Stately acknowledged bullshit. Your government
doesn't seem to need toilet paper.

> Yeah, whatever.  Find some concrete cites and not from your furry
> friend-lovers and I may be willing to listen.  I tend to suspect both
> sides and you suspect only one.  You don't see a problem with that?

Like a public prosecutorattorney should suspect the Jury...
Sorry, I don't suspect.

>>A very good idea... Still, have you spent a thought about
>>the fact, that on that arson-burnt ground, there will be
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> enough) low-rental flats.  Do you?  Do you have any clue about
> anything?  "Arson-burnt" -- what does that supposed to mean?

It means that most forest fires around the mediterranean are
laid intentionally, to enable construction works which are
otherwise illegal. But with the facts made legal.

>>>In the Gulf of St Lawrence?  Get real.  Too far north for either.  You
>>>might get the odd lost shark and that's about it.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>>in the North Sea, that's the same parallel as St. Lawrence.
>>There are Orca at the Lofote Islands in Norway, thats far North.

> I was talking about the Gulf of St Lawrence, not the Canadian West
> Coast or North Sea.  Do try to keep up.  The southernmost point of
> Canada is on a parallel with northern California -- does that
> necessarily mean the climate is the same?  Are you really that naive,
> dull and simplistic?  Do some research and come back when you're
> ready.

I was meeting you at your home ground of good reason.

>>It is a breach of law to show the Jolly Joker at sea. Unless
>>you are a canoe.

> Are you trying to say I'm a pirate in my canoe or that I am a canoe?

Exactly. I must somehow try to keep up with the sharpness of
your wit.

Matthias
Mike from Ottawa - 12 Feb 2006 20:49 GMT
<snip>
>> You must think you're very good at skating.  Just like Spike.  Fine,
>> don't answer the question; I'll put you down as "has no clue."
>
>I fell honoured. Fact is, the people whom I respect don't
>question my sincerety. When I state something was shown in
>Vox TV, pls. explain why you doubt it.

But you question mine.  I'm now getting very bored with this.

<snip>
>>>>I have no idea about this SEAL team you're talking about.
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>Sorry. This information is not available to you.

Maybe because it doesn't exist... but you're privy to it.  You're such
an amazing guy.

<snip>
>> Yeah, whatever.  Find some concrete cites and not from your furry
>> friend-lovers and I may be willing to listen.  I tend to suspect both
>> sides and you suspect only one.  You don't see a problem with that?
>
>Like a public prosecutorattorney should suspect the Jury...
>Sorry, I don't suspect.

OK, you selectively choose what you want to believe.

<snip>
>>>There are Whites, Blue Shark, Pilgrim Sharks in the Biscaya,
>>>  around Cornwall,Vancouver, Ireland, Mako ( Herring Shark)
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
>I was meeting you at your home ground of good reason.

I don't know if it's the language thing, but you make absolutely no
sense.

>>>It is a breach of law to show the Jolly Joker at sea. Unless
>>>you are a canoe.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>Exactly. I must somehow try to keep up with the sharpness of
>your wit.

No, you can't, and I'm giving up on this.  Go beat your seal meat or
argue with John; I just can't be bothered with you anymore.

---
Mike from Ottawa
Scott - 12 Feb 2006 20:55 GMT
> No, you can't, and I'm giving up on this.  Go beat your seal meat or
> argue with John; I just can't be bothered with you anymore.

Another in a long pattern.

Welcome to the MFO KF Matthias.
Matthias Voss - 12 Feb 2006 21:59 GMT
>>I fell honoured. Fact is, the people whom I respect don't
>>question my sincerety. When I state something was shown in
>>Vox TV, pls. explain why you doubt it.
>
> But you question mine.  I'm now getting very bored with this.

If you don't like being bored, do something about it. Like
learning that they were times, when credibility did not base
on something filed on the web.

>>>>>I have no idea about this SEAL team you're talking about.
>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>>
>>Sorry. This information is not available to you.

> Maybe because it doesn't exist... but you're privy to it.  You're such
> an amazing guy.

It's a "I could tell you, but then I'd have to shoot you" thing.

>>>Yeah, whatever.  Find some concrete cites and not from your furry
>>>friend-lovers and I may be willing to listen.  I tend to suspect both
>>>sides and you suspect only one.  You don't see a problem with that?

No I don't. People who cannot decide which side they're
usually don't matter.

>>Like a public prosecutorattorney should suspect the Jury...
>>Sorry, I don't suspect.
>
> OK, you selectively choose what you want to believe.

Seem's your brain's branched somehow queer. I don't have to
believe that 1+1 equals 2.

>>>>There are Whites, Blue Shark, Pilgrim Sharks in the Biscaya,
>>>> around Cornwall,Vancouver, Ireland, Mako ( Herring Shark)
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> I don't know if it's the language thing, but you make absolutely no
> sense.

Truth is, that Orcas populations prefer colder waters.

Matthias
Popeye - 10 Feb 2006 10:45 GMT
> On Thu, 09 Feb 2006 11:59:43 +0100, Matthias Voss

> You must think you're very good at skating.  Just like Spike.  Fine,
> don't answer the question; I'll put you down as "has no clue."
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Are you Chester's brother?  You sound like him.  Or is it Spike --
> difficult to tell the difference.

 Mike from Ottawa is an even bigger coward than John Francis (the water?).

 He's had me killfiled for over a year, and is so afraid he refuses to even
acknowledge a single statement I make, but still worships me continually as
above.

 Regardless of what Francis projects about everyone here being a windbag,
I'd donate some jailtime to beat his a.s.

 Keep up the good work.
nisarel@postmaster.co.uk - 10 Feb 2006 13:37 GMT
You're simply a windbag, Douggy and you know it.
John Francis - 10 Feb 2006 14:08 GMT
>> On Thu, 09 Feb 2006 11:59:43 +0100, Matthias Voss
>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>  Regardless of what Francis projects about everyone here being a windbag,
>I'd donate some jailtime to beat his a.s.

Are you talking about my a.s or Mike's here? If it's mine I gotta tell
you that I'm a lover not a fighter so it would be like shooting ducks
in a barrel.

JF
Popeye - 10 Feb 2006 15:03 GMT
> Are you talking about my a.s or Mike's here? If it's mine I gotta tell
> you that I'm a lover not a fighter so it would be like shooting ducks
> in a barrel.

 Despite being a windbag, I'm sure you could hold your own.

 I promised MfO a 5 star beating way back.

 ICU quality.

 It was another one of those remarks that you smarmy Canadian motherf..kers 
make that you say you're sick of hearing.

 You just keep making repeated, incorrect remarks about how it would never
happen, and you're wrong.

 I'll take one of his eyes out, and whisper your name while I do it.


Scott - 11 Feb 2006 01:49 GMT
> > Are you talking about my a.s or Mike's here? If it's mine I gotta tell
> > you that I'm a lover not a fighter so it would be like shooting ducks
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
>   I'll take one of his eyes out, and whisper your name while I do it.

I dont think they get it...
Popeye - 11 Feb 2006 15:23 GMT
>> > Are you talking about my a.s or Mike's here? If it's mine I gotta tell
>> > you that I'm a lover not a fighter so it would be like shooting ducks
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> I dont think they get it...

 Canadians only get gratuitous violence when there are starving unarmed
African children to roast.
Lee Bell - 10 Feb 2006 15:20 GMT
> Are you talking about my a.s or Mike's here? If it's mine I gotta tell
> you that I'm a lover not a fighter so it would be like shooting ducks
> in a barrel.

Bad allusion.
Mike from Ottawa - 12 Feb 2006 17:09 GMT
>>> On Thu, 09 Feb 2006 11:59:43 +0100, Matthias Voss
>>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>>acknowledge a single statement I make, but still worships me continually as
>>above.

You never make any statement that's worth the bother of a response.
Frankly, you bore the hell out of me.  You belong in everyone's kf.

>>  Regardless of what Francis projects about everyone here being a windbag,
>>I'd donate some jailtime to beat his a.s.

Come on up, then.

>Are you talking about my a.s or Mike's here? If it's mine I gotta tell
>you that I'm a lover not a fighter so it would be like shooting ducks
>in a barrel.

I think he'd like to "get" us both, but it's only hot air, as per
usual.  Just like his story about going to Iraq.

---
Mike from Ottawa
Scott - 12 Feb 2006 17:47 GMT
> >>  He's had me killfiled for over a year, and is so afraid he refuses to even
> >>acknowledge a single statement I make, but still worships me continually as
> >>above.

> You never make any statement that's worth the bother of a response.
> Frankly, you bore the hell out of me.  You belong in everyone's kf.

Yet here you are, again, denying you read anything by him, while responding
that nothing he says is worthy of a response.
Popeye - 12 Feb 2006 19:32 GMT
>> >>  He's had me killfiled for over a year, and is so afraid he refuses to
> even
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> responding
> that nothing he says is worthy of a response.

 It's Good To Be King.
HostlBuddha - 12 Feb 2006 20:17 GMT
Bjórrúnar skaltu Popeye rista

>   It's Good To Be King.

Only in your delusional world, Douggy.

"But since casualties are down 50% since the elections, and it's
getting harder to deny that we're clearly winning, I might not have
to go." -Douglas W. Popeye Frederick Tues, Mar 29 2005 4:25 pm

So, Douggy, US and Iraq casualities are up and rising now. The
insurgents have bogged down the US troops into an unwinnable
position.

Why aren't you over there now?
HostlBuddha - 12 Feb 2006 20:15 GMT
> I think he'd like to "get" us both, but it's only hot air, as per
> usual.  Just like his story about going to Iraq.

That's quite accurate.

"But since casualties are down 50% since the elections, and it's
getting harder to deny that we're clearly winning, I might not have
to go." -Douglas W. Popeye Frederick Tues, Mar 29 2005 4:25 pm

So, Douggy, US and Iraq casualities are up and rising now. The
insurgents have bogged down the US troops into an unwinnable
position.

Why aren't you over there now?

<snicker>
Scott - 11 Feb 2006 01:48 GMT
> Regardless of what Francis projects about everyone here being a windbag,
> I'd donate some jailtime to beat his a.s.

I'll bring the smokes.