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Scuba Forum / General / January 2006

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Well, what about that tank of hot?

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ben bradlee - 02 Jan 2006 14:00 GMT
A tank heats when filled.  Where does the heat come from?  The air going in
is 70 degrees, the tank is at 70 degrees, how come the tank gets warm?
Could it be the motor used to drive the compressor gives off heat or the
compressor cylinders moving in the sleeves create friction heat that is
transferred to the tank, or such similar action?

Maybe the amount of heat produced by the tank being filled equals the amount
of cold when the cylinder is emptied - given relevant environmental factors
remain constant.
George Cathcart - 02 Jan 2006 14:22 GMT
A tank heats when filled too fast. When it cools, the pressure
decreases. It's the aspect of Boyle's Law that too many shop monkeys
don't understand. The volume of gas in a hot filled tank is not as
great as the pressure reading suggests. The true volume is the volume
equivalent to the pressure at room temperature. Boyle's Law states that
pressure and volume are inversely related at constant temperature. If
you let the temperature rise (by filling too fast), you have screwed up
the relationship between pressure and volume, and you have to wait
until the tank cools before you can calculate the true volume.

There is no such thing as an "amount of cold." Cold is merely the
absence of heat.

Boyle's Law doesn't account for time. The reality of filling or
emptying tanks is that the faster you fill them, the hotter they get,
and the faster you empty them, the colder they get.  I don't know if
they still do, but liquor stores used to sell CO-2 cartridges as
instant drink coolers. The metal cartridge can quickly get below
freezing upon a sudden release of pressure.
ben bradlee - 02 Jan 2006 19:41 GMT
> There is no such thing as an "amount of cold." Cold is merely the
> absence of heat.

Interesting theory.  The gas bill comes billing for therms.  The electric
bills for killowatt hours.  It appears to me that you can quantify cold as
easily as you quantify heat.  What's the rating of your air conditioner?
Aren't there heating degree days and cooling degree days?

The quantity of heat or cold in a scuba cylinder is not a dynamic discussed
in scuba literature I've read and I don't recall it discussed here.  Maybe
it was mixed in with the last gun discussion or the last political debate.
Steve - 02 Jan 2006 21:59 GMT
> What's the rating of your air conditioner?

12,000 BTU's. You do know what a BTU is, right? Here's a hint: it has nothing to do
with removing cold from water.

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Steve - 02 Jan 2006 21:54 GMT
> A tank heats when filled too fast.

It also heats when filled really slowly, but the temperature doesn't go up as much.
Heat is heat, temerature is temperature, and they aren' the same thing.

> The volume of gas in a hot filled tank is not as
> great as the pressure reading suggests. The true volume is the volume
> equivalent to the pressure at room temperature.

The volume in a tank is dependient on the size of the tank. Mass (or even weight) is
what we're really interested in. Putting a tank on a scale while filling would work
well, except that some shop monkeys would blow the tank up while it was still a few
grams shy of a good fill.

> There is no such thing as an "amount of cold." Cold is merely the
> absence of heat.

Benito already knows that, but for some inexplicable reason he's afraid that we don't
already think he's stupid.

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Lee Bell - 02 Jan 2006 22:53 GMT
>A tank heats when filled too fast. When it cools, the pressure
> decreases.

The same amount of heat is generated no matter how fast or slowly the tank
is filled.

> It's the aspect of Boyle's Law that too many shop monkeys
> don't understand.

Mine do.  Sorry about yours.

> The volume of gas in a hot filled tank is not as great as the pressure
> reading suggests. The true volume is the volume
> equivalent to the pressure at room temperature.

The true volume, in terms of the amount of gas contained in the tank, can be
expressed only in terms of molecules or some measure of them.  Neither cubic
feet nor liters does that.

> Boyle's Law states that pressure and volume are inversely related at
> constant temperature. If you let the temperature > rise (by filling too
> fast), you have screwed up the relationship between pressure and volume,
> and you have to wait
> until the tank cools before you can calculate the true volume.

Say what?

> There is no such thing as an "amount of cold." Cold is merely the
> absence of heat.

Well, at least you got one thing right.

> Boyle's Law doesn't account for time. The reality of filling or emptying
> tanks is that the faster you fill them, the
> hotter they get . . .

That's two more things right.

> and the faster you empty them, the colder they get.

That's one more right.  You're doing better.

Lee
Steve - 03 Jan 2006 08:59 GMT
> If you let the temperature > rise (by filling too
>>fast), you have screwed up the relationship between pressure and volume,
>>and you have to wait
>>until the tank cools before you can calculate the true volume.
>
> Say what?

He said that jamming a tank can result in a short fill. Since the temerature has
changed, the relationship of P to V isn't linear and 3000 psi hot won't be 3000 when
it cools. He just didn't say it as clearly as possible.

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Popeye - 02 Jan 2006 14:28 GMT
>A tank heats when filled.  Where does the heat come from?  The air going in
> is 70 degrees, the tank is at 70 degrees, how come the tank gets warm?
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> factors
> remain constant.

 Jesus, you must be bored.
ben bradlee - 02 Jan 2006 19:44 GMT
>   Jesus, you must be bored.

If you've studied diesel engines, that surely should cover the basics.
After all, it's why the damn things run.
Popeye - 02 Jan 2006 20:04 GMT
>>   Jesus, you must be bored.
>
> If you've studied diesel engines, that surely should cover the basics.
> After all, it's why the damn things run.

 You could just take a nitrox blending course, or read the Navy dive
manual, and get the same information about heat of compression.
Matthias Voss - 02 Jan 2006 21:49 GMT
>>  Jesus, you must be bored.
>
> If you've studied diesel engines, that surely should cover the basics.
> After all, it's why the damn things run.

And there is nothing to replace bore. Except bigger bore ;-)

Matthias
Dillon Pyron - 04 Jan 2006 17:43 GMT
>>>  Jesus, you must be bored.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>Matthias

Nothing beats cubic inches.  Except boost.

Although I can't wait to see what the new 2.4L engines are going to
do.  Cosworth already claims 950 bhp at 20,000 rpm.
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Geoff - 02 Jan 2006 20:01 GMT
>A tank heats when filled.  Where does the heat come from?  The air going in
>is 70 degrees, the tank is at 70 degrees, how come the tank gets warm?
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>of cold when the cylinder is emptied - given relevant environmental factors
>remain constant.

It comes from the work done compressing the gas in the cylinder.

The Temperature changes in response to compression due to addition of
more molecules of air to the closed, fixed-volume cylinder. Work is
produced. Temperature rises.

The temperature must change by following Ideal Gas Law:

P V = N k T

Where P = pressure, V = volume, N = number of gas molecules, k = is
Boltzman's constant and T is Kelvin.

The equation must balance. Pick any system of gasses at a specific
pressure, temperature and volume. Change any of those four conditions,
the others must change proportionately.

See also, http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/IdealGasLaw.html
ben bradlee - 02 Jan 2006 21:04 GMT
> >A tank heats when filled.  Where does the heat come from?  The air going in
> >is 70 degrees, the tank is at 70 degrees, how come the tank gets warm?
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> Where P = pressure, V = volume, N = number of gas molecules, k = is
> Boltzman's constant and T is Kelvin.

That sounds good, like most of the way there.  But is the quantity of heat
the same from compression and decompression?  According to the formula, the
temperature should vary directly and in proportion to the change in pressure
when holding V, N, and k constant.
Geoff - 02 Jan 2006 22:36 GMT
>> >A tank heats when filled.  Where does the heat come from?  The air going
>in
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>temperature should vary directly and in proportion to the change in pressure
>when holding V, N, and k constant.

k is already a constant. When N is constant the equation becomes PV/T
= C (some constant). Then we have Boyle's law.

P1 V1 / T1 = P2 V2 / T2

Compress a gas in a dead headed piston and P and T will rise while V
gets smaller. Relax the piston and it springs back to its original
volume and P, T will fall. The amount of work done by the piston as it
relaxes can never be the same as the amount of work done to compress
it. Friction in the piston and heat lost to space account for the
losses. You can never get as much work out of a system as you put in.
This is a consequence of the first and second laws of thermodynamics.

Your scuba tank is a Carnot cycle device, not a Diesel.

See also adiabatic expansion, Carnot Cycle.

When filling SCUBA tanks it's always a good idea to keep them cool or
else fill slowly so that T does not increase rapidly.

1. Thermal stress promotes metal fatigue and we want to minimize that.

2. From Boyle's law, the pressure measured at the elevated temperature
will be high compared to the temperature after it cools, thus, a short
fill when T is not so high.
ben bradlee - 02 Jan 2006 23:16 GMT
> >> >A tank heats when filled.  Where does the heat come from?  The air going
> >in
[quoted text clipped - 38 lines]
> losses. You can never get as much work out of a system as you put in.
> This is a consequence of the first and second laws of thermodynamics.

Well, we're right back to where we started.  Compressing gas yields heat.
The question is not how much heat is lost in the process of compression but
rather is the heat given off by the gas equal to the heat the gas takes back
during decompression.  Of course it takes work to accomplish the compression
and loss will result in that process, as you describe.
Geoff - 03 Jan 2006 01:52 GMT
>Well, we're right back to where we started.  Compressing gas yields heat.
>The question is not how much heat is lost in the process of compression but
>rather is the heat given off by the gas equal to the heat the gas takes back
>during decompression.  Of course it takes work to accomplish the compression
>and loss will result in that process, as you describe.

Work is accomplished by moving gas from one place to another. Work
makes heat. Work cannot be done without heat. Compressing gas heats
the container. This heat is dissipated as radiant light (infrared) and
by conduction/convection with the surrounding air and any solids in
contact with the tank. The result is work in the form of increased
kinetic energy of the air molecules around the tank. The container
temperature rises only so long as the work input exceeds the tanks
capacity to dissipate the heat to its surroundings. When gas input
ceases the temperature of the tank decreases until it reaches
equilibrium with its environment. At that time the pressure of the gas
inside will be less than it was at the elevated temperature.

When compressed gas is released from a container Boyle's law overrides
the heat of friction of the gas through the orifice and kinetic energy
(KE) of the gas molecules as they are released. The "heat" if you
will, of the compressed gas inside is turned into KE of the released
gas. The temperature of the container falls. The container is no
longer in a state of thermal equilibrium and must absorb heat from its
surroundings. It does not emit "cold". Gas molecules of the
surrounding air and any solid materials in contact with the tank must
give up some heat until the tank temperature rises to equilibrium
again.

The amount of heat transported during both phases will be conserved,
less any losses. The TEMPERATURE DIFFERENTIALS do not have to be the
same and they won't be the same unless the same quantity of gas is
released at the same rate it was put in. The time*T product of both
phases will be nearly the same and have the opposite sign.
ben bradlee - 03 Jan 2006 02:57 GMT
> The amount of heat transported during both phases will be conserved,
> less any losses. The TEMPERATURE DIFFERENTIALS do not have to be the
> same and they won't be the same unless the same quantity of gas is
> released at the same rate it was put in. The time*T product of both
> phases will be nearly the same and have the opposite sign.

Thanks for your effort.

The point is to determine if a regulator can affect the total quantity of
heat.  If heat transferred in the filling and emptying process is equal,
then the regulator is irrelevant.  It's a matter of where the heat deficit
(aka cold) originated - in the emptying cycle.  Was the cold due to movement
of air or the regulator.

My perspective on the quantity of heat is that it equals mass times a
constant for the material times the change in temperature.  If the tank is
filled and emptied while remaining in a controlled environment, the quantity
of heat has to be equal.  I didn't find the formula on the site you
referenced and haven't used it for many years so it could be misapplied.  If
the quantity of heat is equal then a regulator cannot cause freezing but
will freeze due to airflow.
Steve - 03 Jan 2006 08:54 GMT
> The point is to determine if a regulator can affect the total quantity of
> heat.  If heat transferred in the filling and emptying process is equal,
> then the regulator is irrelevant.

The amount of heat transferred may be the same, but it's unlikely that the
temperature will remain constant throughout the process. Depending on environmental
conditions, the regulator (as well as the tank) will act as a conductor, dissipating
or absorbing heat, or both, and will affect the total heat at any given point in the
process.

> My perspective on the quantity of heat is that it equals mass times a
> constant for the material times the change in temperature.

Heat = mass * specific heat * T.  Delta heat = mass * specific heat * delta T.

> If the quantity of heat is equal then a regulator cannot
> cause freezing but will freeze due to airflow.

If the regulator transfers enough heat to a cold environment that can cause the heat
loss that leads to freezing. As far as temperature changes and heat transfer due to
expansion, the regulator doesn't cause them because the regulator doesn't cause the
expansion.

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Geoff - 03 Jan 2006 22:08 GMT
>> The amount of heat transported during both phases will be conserved,
>> less any losses. The TEMPERATURE DIFFERENTIALS do not have to be the
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>the quantity of heat is equal then a regulator cannot cause freezing but
>will freeze due to airflow.

It doesn't matter where the tank is - unless it's suspended in a
vacuum inside a mirrored chamber - its temperature will seek
equilibrium with the surrounding environment. (Giving up or acquiring
heat in the process.) The heat transfer mechanism is radiant and
convective/conductive.

Expansion of the gas through an orifice (regulator) will cause cooling
of the gas to a temperature below any ambient. If the rate of cooling
due to expansion is faster than the rate of heat replacement due to
radiant/convective/conductive processes with the ambient then the
temperature differential with respect to the ambient will be large. If
the ambient temperature is close to freezing then it will take very
little differential to freeze the regulator.

I don't know if you followed all the links related to that link I
posted originally, so I provide a new one here.

http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/CharlesLaw.html

Here we see that pressure, temperature and volume are all linearly
related and we find a nice magic number: 273

Why does that number sound familiar? Hint: It's a Kelvin number.

There are three problems with application of Charles' Law here: It
applies only to ideal gasses and air is not an ideal gas, it neglects
any heat input from the environment and it neglects tensile expansion
of the container due to the pressure of the gas. Charles' law assumes
zero heat transfer and a perfectly rigid container and a monatomic
ideal gas but as a first-approximation sketch of what can happen it
can serve as a good starting point for a thought experiment.

Assume an ambient of 274 K (1 degree Celsius) and that our tank is at
ambient. We can easily calculate the volume of ideal gas we need to
remove from the initial  volume to lower that tank to 273 K and freeze
any water in it:

V = V0(1 + (-1)/273) so if V0 = 1 then V = .99633(V0) or 99.6% of the
original volume. Less than 1% of the gas in the tank needs to be
removed to effect a 1 degree (Celsius/Kelvin) change in the gas
temperature. In the case of an 80 ft^3 tank, that would be about 0.8
ft^3, right? How many breaths would it take to remove that volume of
air? If you are doing an under-ice lake dive would you be in trouble
if you had water in the regulator components?

In the real world, thermal transfer from the ambient to the container
and gas would tend to increase the quantity of gas release needed to
effect a given temperature change. Any ambient temperature that was
NOT -273.15 K would allow heat transfer into the gas. (Even freezing
water has "heat".) The effect of 274 K water around our regulator
would be to increase the rate and gas volume removal required to
achieve the desired temperature change.

Let's now assume a nice warm Southern California dive, an ambient of
68 F, or 293 K:

V = V0(1 - 20/273) = .9267 or 92.7% of original volume.

So we would have to remove approximately 10% of the original air in
the tank rapidly enough to overcome thermal transfers from the
environment in order to freeze a regulator. Of course, this assumes
there is water in the regulator to be frozen. Without liquid water
there can be no freezing. Thermal expansion coefficients of the metal
components of modern regulators are small enough that it would take a
very large temperature change to cause seizing of the mechanism.
Minimizing use of dissimilar metals in regulator design also minimizes
this risk.
mike gray - 03 Jan 2006 03:04 GMT
> Well, we're right back to where we started.  Compressing gas yields heat.
> The question is not how much heat is lost in the process of compression but
> rather is the heat given off by the gas equal to the heat the gas takes back
> during decompression.  Of course it takes work to accomplish the compression
> and loss will result in that process, as you describe.

Theoretically, yes the heat of compression is exactly equal to
the loss of heat of expansion.

As a practical matter, it's a bitch to isolate the effects of
compression/expansion from all the junk associated with making
it happen (pistons, valves, etc) and that's where everyone is
getting tangled in their panties.

Imagine a very large sealed tank that magically gets very small,
then very large again. Psychokinesis, maybe. Equal heat with
opposite signs in each direction.
-hh - 07 Jan 2006 14:34 GMT
> > Well, we're right back to where we started.  Compressing gas yields heat.
> > The question is not how much heat is lost in the process of compression but
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Theoretically, yes the heat of compression is exactly equal to
> the loss of heat of expansion.

Sorry I overlooked this thread.  

From a theoretical standpoint, we would have to be worried about entropy
effects.  

> As a practical matter, it's a bitch to isolate the effects of
> compression/expansion from all the junk associated with making
> it happen (pistons, valves, etc) and that's where everyone is
> getting tangled in their panties.

Agreed.  In addition to the heating due to compression, the process
that's doing it will never have 100% efficiency, so that waste heat gets
mixed up in it.

FWIW, ditto for the latter expansion and cooling...its also not a 100%
efficient process.


And while we generalize about getting shorted on hot fills, the
engineering reality is that we could have chosen to put an intercooler
on the compressed gas to move the created heat so that less of it goes
into the tank, where it will eventually bias our pressure gage.  We just
need to remember that as per PV=nRT, the volume, temperature and
pressure of a quantity of gas ultimately comes down to the macroscopic
aggregate properties of a discrete quantity (~10^25) of molecules.  

-hh
Dillon Pyron - 04 Jan 2006 17:40 GMT
>A tank heats when filled.  Where does the heat come from?  The air going in
>is 70 degrees, the tank is at 70 degrees, how come the tank gets warm?
>Could it be the motor used to drive the compressor gives off heat or the
>compressor cylinders moving in the sleeves create friction heat that is
>transferred to the tank, or such similar action?

The mere act of compressing air heats it.  Think STP (standard
temperature and pressure).  Pressure goes up, temperature goes up. And
the same in the reverse.  This is why the air coming out of a tank is
cold.  Take a hot tank and vent it.  The air coming out the valve will
the cold, maybe enough to cause condensation on a relatively humid
day.

>Maybe the amount of heat produced by the tank being filled equals the amount
>of cold when the cylinder is emptied - given relevant environmental factors
>remain constant.

No such thing as an "amount of cold".  All temperature, in the end,
is relative to absolute zero.  You can't add cold to anything, you
simply move heat away from it.  It's how an air conditioner or a
refrigerator works.  It moves heat from one location to another.
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