 |
 | Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us |
 | Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network |
| HomeArticlesDiving DestinationsLearning Scuba DivingMarine LifeMiscellaneousDiscussion GroupsGeneralScuba EquipmentScuba LocationsAustralian ScubaUK ScubaDirectoryScuba Clubs |
Scuba Forum / General / January 2006OK, another SCUBA related question
OK, to help get things going in 2006, here's another SCUBA related question. Being new to SCUBA myself, I'm curious as to the opinion of our more "seasoned" individuals here (professional or otherwise). Among the different diving agencies I've discovered (PADI, NAUI, etc.), there is SDI/TDI. They've peaked my interest because they offer a "Solo Diver" course and rating, the only agency I know of that does (this, of course, being soooooooo against the PADI philosophy of always having a dive "buddy"). For the record, since I'm still learning, of course I'll have either an instructor, divemaster, or dive buddy with me at all times. Nonetheless, the thought of being able to go "solo" at some point in my diving life is intriguing. With most "skills" type things I've mastered in life, I've always seemed to do it best when I've had time to practice and perfect techniques I've learned from my instructor on my own, thereby relieving any "performance anxiety" I might have with the instructor present. I felt that way a little when getting my "Niveau 1*" cert. in Tahiti last year (eqv. of PADI "Open Water"), wanting desperately to have some practice time to myself, which obviously, I couldn't have. Similarly, upon picking up a PADI "Peak Performance Buoyancy" diver specialty rating in October, I had similar desires. So when I learned that SDI/TDI offers this "Solo Diver" rating, and that the facility I go to at home for training recognizes and permits these divers (they require them to wear a transponder at all times and are supervised by the lookout employees), I was curious as to why it would be offered at all and whether or not anyone would seek it, the concept being such a pariah with PADI et al. As it turns out, the rating does me no good in resolving any "performance anxiety" issues, since to qualify for it one must have: 1) "Advanced Open Water" or equivalent; 2) Been diving for over 1 year; 3) Accumulate 100 logged dives or more. By the time I do all of the above, I should *already* have resolved my anxiety issues or something is truly wrong. (BTW, the "anxiety" is not as bad as I'm making it sound..... I'm just being my "perfectionist" self and wanting to be as good and seamless as my instructors make it look. I know that will take time). Anyway, what's the feeling here on going "solo," given the appropriate experience, training, and conditions? Thanks, and safe diving to all in 2006. ____________________________________________ Regards, Arnold mag3 <zmpmag3-plongee@yahoo.com> sputtered: > I'm curious as to the opinion of our more > "seasoned" individuals here (professional or otherwise). You shouldn't be. The "seasoned" fuckwits are just here to flame people like you. > Anyway, what's the feeling here on going "solo," given the appropriate > experience, > training, and conditions? I dive solo most of the time. There are also many dives I would -never- solo. It's a personal decision, and assuming you have even a room temperature IQ, you can read up on, and probably receive even more information than, any course you can take. Either you're ready to solo dive or you aren't, no ones' decision but your own, and the card means nothing. I.e., the class won't hurt, but, if you're not ready to solo -without- the class, you're not ready, period. It will not "enable" you to solo, so to speak. It's sole benefit (besides fattening an instructors' wallet) is that some places/boats -might- let you solo dive. Most of those that do, in my experience, don't so much ask for a card as they just "don't ask, don't tell". Solo diving is common all over Florida, Tennessee and North Carolina. I do -not- carry a RAS (look it up :-), or modify my gear in any way, primarily because I service my own gear and trust it implicitly. Many will argue that point (I don't think it's a bad idea). The only suggestion I offer is that you dive in shallow, clear water several times to get used to it. My favorite dives inland are night AOW training dives, where I swim around completely in the dark and scare the crap out of the students. As an added point, myself and others here also feel that -having- a buddy, in some situations, is possibly more dangerous than going solo. If you've ever been paired with a random idiot on a cattleboat, you'll understand. Something else- the revelation that I was -already- a solo diver was something I learned here. If you and your mates aren't -perfect- buddy divers, you've already been soloing. Best put yourself in the state of mind that goes with it. Bjórrúnar skaltu Popeye <Popeye@Finalprotectivefire.com> rista > I dive solo most of the time. That's because you know you can't trust many people who might dive with you. > Bjórrúnar skaltu Popeye <Popeye@Finalprotectivefire.com> rista > >> I dive solo most of the time. > > That's because you know you can't trust many people who might dive > with you. Actually even spastic, apoplectic fools like you don't worry me. Bjórrúnar skaltu Popeye <Popeye@Finalprotectivefire.com> rista > "Hostlbuddha" <nisarel@postmaster.co.ku> wrote in message >> Bjórrúnar skaltu Popeye <Popeye@Finalprotectivefire.com> >> rista [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Actually even spastic, apoplectic fools like me don't worry > you. We know you're frightened, Douggy. That's why you just sputter and spew from the newsgroup. You claimed that you knew my name and address. Yet you won't come up and visit. You're just a frightened fat fuckwit. > Bjórrúnar skaltu Popeye <Popeye@Finalprotectivefire.com> rista > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > You're just a frightened fat fuckwit. The same noise always comes from those too afraid to identify themselves. Bjórrúnar skaltu Popeye <Popeye@Finalprotectivefire.com> rista > "Hostlbuddha" <nisarel@postmaster.co.ku> wrote in message >> Bjórrúnar skaltu Popeye <Popeye@Finalprotectivefire.com> [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > The same noise always comes from those too afraid to > identify themselves. That's such a nasty thing to say about your buddies, Fatboy. We know you're all bluff and bluster, Douggy. >> The same noise always comes from those too afraid to >> identify themselves. > > That's such a nasty thing to say about your buddies, Fatboy. > > We know you're all bluff and bluster, Douggy. The problem with you not having a spine is that there isn't anything separate your mouth and your a.shole. The sh.t just spews out whatever hole it finds. >>> The same noise always comes from those too afraid to >>> identify themselves. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > The sh.t just spews out whatever hole it finds. Well put Popeye Bjórrúnar skaltu Popeye <Popeye@Finalprotectivefire.com> rista > "Hostlbuddha" <nisarel@postmaster.co.ku> wrote in message >>> The same noise always comes from those too afraid to [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > The sh.t just spews out whatever hole it finds. We know, Douggy. You just can't help yourself. > Bjórrúnar skaltu Popeye <Popeye@Finalprotectivefire.com> rista > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >> Actually even spastic, apoplectic fools like me don't worry >> you. whoooosssshhhh < going way over carlitos head...> > We know you're frightened, Douggy. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > You're just a frightened fat fuckwit. Bjórrúnar skaltu bob crownfield <crownfield@verizon.net> rista > whoooosssshhhh The sound of you being tossed out with the chum bucket. > It's a personal decision, and assuming you have even a room temperature >IQ, you can read up on, and probably receive even more information than, any [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > I.e., the class won't hurt, but, if you're not ready to solo -without- the >class, you're not ready, period. Understood. When did you (and what made you) realize you were "ready?" > It's sole benefit (besides fattening an instructors' wallet) is that some >places/boats -might- let you solo dive. > > Most of those that do, in my experience, don't so much ask for a card as >they just "don't ask, don't tell". Not the quary spring I go to. They card you to the hilt. Liability concerns. Which makes me wonder then why they accept solo divers at all. > My favorite dives inland are night AOW training dives, where I swim around >completely in the dark and scare the crap out of the students. <Student's shock/terror face> GASP!!! Remind me not to take any training dives with you!!!! :-) > As an added point, myself and others here also feel that -having- a buddy, >in some situations, is possibly more dangerous than going solo. > > If you've ever been paired with a random idiot on a cattleboat, you'll >understand. I do, even not having been paired as such. As my mom's instructor told her (she is also PADI certified), "The most dangerous thing to you underwater is not the sharks, corals, or other animals...... It's another human being!" > Best put yourself in the state of mind that goes with it. Will do. Thanks much. Just out of curiosity, how do you "log" solo dives, or do you not bother? ____________________________________________ Regards, Arnold > Understood. When did you (and what made you) realize you were "ready?" I started hanging out here. When I learned from these guys what solo -actually- entailed, I realized I was already there. Solo ascents, for instance, or profound buddy separation. If you can't basically reach out and touch your buddy, you're solo. I dive in the Tennessee mountains quite a bit, and I started -intentionally- soloing when the occasion buddy didn't show. Then I did a few things, like a free ascent from 90fsw in the dark, ect. to, I suppose, acclimate myself to being alone. Our local quarry has cave line trails in it, and I would take off my mask and follow them in the dark, for hours. Stuff like that. I highly doubt I would to any type of tech dive solo. It's my contention that diving is pretty low risk, and while solo diving -may- be riskier, that just makes it slightly riskier than hardly ant risk at all. YMMV. Take this advice- spend the Solo cert money on a regulator maintenance course. I took one weeks after being certified, and when you have a complete understanding of how your gear lets you breathe underwater, you'll find that builds a great deal of confidence. >> It's sole benefit (besides fattening an instructors' wallet) is that >> some [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > concerns. > Which makes me wonder then why they accept solo divers at all. To sell solo certs. :-) >> My favorite dives inland are night AOW training dives, where I swim >> around >>completely in the dark and scare the crap out of the students. > > <Student's shock/terror face> GASP!!! Remind me not to take any training > dives with you!!!! :-) There is nothing as cool as diving in the pitch black. Except maybe diving off West Palm by moonlight. When others around you are using lights, you'll find it easy to keep a position reference. Everyone I teach to do it seems to have a proximity sense for stuff, plus you keep one hand in front of you. Hell, try it in the pool, with the lights off, you'll love it. >> As an added point, myself and others here also feel that -having- a >> buddy, [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > is not the sharks, corals, or other animals...... It's another human > being!" That's good. >> Best put yourself in the state of mind that goes with it. > > Will do. Thanks much. Just out of curiosity, how do you "log" solo > dives, or do you not bother? I just download 'em. I can usually tell by the depth and temp where they were. I would suggest you log your first couple hundred dives, tho, for further certification stuff. > Take this advice- spend the Solo cert money on a regulator maintenance >course. Such as the PADI "Equipment Specialist" specialty rating course, or something a bit more technical/professional (eg. DSAT course)? > I took one weeks after being certified, and when you have a complete >understanding of how your gear lets you breathe underwater, you'll find that >builds a great deal of confidence. Actually, that's one aspect with which I'm already quite confident (as opposed to some I know who are afraid to go near the water for fear that it "won't work"). As long as I ensure the equipment is serviced and working (tested) beforehand, I'm good to go. But point well taken nonetheless. Never hurts to know the finer points. Since I just purchased all new equipment for myself (my first regulator/computer etc.), I'll have it checked at the dive shop before its first use. I have a few mask issues to resolve (keeps leaking) but that I think is a matter of picking the right mask for my head/face and then wearing it right (strap at proper tension etc.). Where I need confidence/practice is in neutral buoyancy maintenance, efficiency in the water (finning/movements) and subsequentially, air tank efficiency (using less air). And that comes with more dives/experience and being in better shape physically. >>> Most of those that do, in my experience, don't so much ask for a card as >>>they just "don't ask, don't tell". [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > To sell solo certs. :-) Sorry, I was talking about the quarry facility itself, which I don't think offers training directly. They simply host all the dive shops around them which have their own training programs, but they also take certified independent divers (buddied or not) as well. Those diving solo there must have the SDI/TDI cert, and use the transponder (which, of course, they're happy to rent to you). >>> My favorite dives inland are night AOW training dives, where I swim >>> around [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > There is nothing as cool as diving in the pitch black. For now, I'll take your word for it. That's going to be a longer term confidence goal for me. > Everyone I teach to do it seems to have a proximity sense for stuff, plus >you keep one hand in front of you. > > Hell, try it in the pool, with the lights off, you'll love it. OK, that I can try. > I would suggest you log your first couple hundred dives, tho, for further >certification stuff. Absolutely. Thanks again. ____________________________________________ Regards, Arnold >> Take this advice- spend the Solo cert money on a regulator maintenance >>course. [quoted text clipped - 64 lines] > >Arnold I would suggest that you get the shop to give you some pool time to test their work every time you have it annualed or worked on by them. As for the mask leaking, nake sure you shave before you dive, stubble makes for leaks. >I would suggest that you get the shop to give you some pool time to >test their work every time you have it annualed or worked on by them. Absolutely. Also, my father has a pool where he lives now and I can practice much there, as long as I can get air refills. It's not too deep, (ie. a "lap pool"), but for finning and neutral buoyancy, it's perfect. I'd just have to buy my own tanks and weights (the two pieces of equipment I don't have). >As for the mask leaking, nake sure you shave before you dive, stubble >makes for leaks. Possibly the issue. Also, it seems to happen more (and more severely) when I'm hooded (5mm hood). Would some type of wax around the upper lip (no mustache) help? Thanks. ____________________________________________ Regards, Arnold >>I would suggest that you get the shop to give you some pool time to >>test their work every time you have it annualed or worked on by them. [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > >Arnold It may, but I doubt I could stand it, I have a beard and mustache. I will trim my stach about 1/8 inch below my nose, I doubt it helps. > Possibly the issue. Also, it seems to happen more (and more severely) > when I'm hooded (5mm hood). Make sure the hood isn't interfering with the mask. If you get a corner of the mask on the hood it will probably cause a real leak that's obvious but if it's just pressing against the mask's skirt it could interfere with the seal without being obvious exactly where the leak is coming from. > Would some type of wax around the upper lip (no mustache) help? I've heard of people using vaseline, but I think if the leak is bad enough to consider that a different mask is in order. Like Rod, I shave about 1/8" inch of my moustache, but I still get some leakage. Even when the water is up over my nostrils a little bit it doesn't bother me. If all you have is minor leakage I'd figure it's just an excuse to get really comfortable with clearing your mask.  SignatureSteve The above can be construed as personal opinion in the absence of a reasonable belief that it was intended as a statement of fact. If you want a reply to reach me, remove the SPAMTRAP from the address. >> Take this advice- spend the Solo cert money on a regulator maintenance >>course. > >Such as the PADI "Equipment Specialist" specialty rating course, or something >a bit more technical/professional (eg. DSAT course)? The equipment specialist is nice, but make sure you learn about YOUR gear. It doesn't help to know all about Scuba Pro when you have Dacor. >> I took one weeks after being certified, and when you have a complete >>understanding of how your gear lets you breathe underwater, you'll find that [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >less air). And that comes with more dives/experience and being in better shape >physically. You're on your way to becoming a better diver with that attitude. It all takes time. >>>> Most of those that do, in my experience, don't so much ask for a card as >>>>they just "don't ask, don't tell". [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >(buddied or not) as well. Those diving solo there must have the SDI/TDI cert, >and use the transponder (which, of course, they're happy to rent to you). xponder? What in the world for? >>>> My favorite dives inland are night AOW training dives, where I swim >>>> around [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > >Arnold Signaturedillon 666 permissions of the beast >>> Take this advice- spend the Solo cert money on a regulator maintenance >>>course. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >gear. It doesn't help to know all about Scuba Pro when you have >Dacor. Or in my case, Oceanic. Fortunately, the dive shop(s) I frequent here locally are Oceanic dealers. >>Where I need confidence/practice is in neutral buoyancy maintenance, efficiency >>in the water (finning/movements) and subsequentially, air tank efficiency (using [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >You're on your way to becoming a better diver with that attitude. It >all takes time. Thank you. My challenge will be to give it the time it needs. >>>> Not the quary spring I go to. They card you to the hilt. Liability >>>> concerns. >>>> Which makes me wonder then why they accept solo divers at all. To answer the other question you posed elsewere, no, it's not the case where two buddies arrive and then separate. They're serious about solos. They have spotters both in towers and in boats on the water itself. If any pair tried to separate like that, they'd be on it quickly as would any of the "affiliated" dive shop instructors they host (who while on the premesis are, in essence, "deputized employees"). >>> To sell solo certs. :-) >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >xponder? What in the world for? Liability, pure and simple. You should see the waiver form everyone has to fill out to even get into the place. Fortunately, you only have to do it once a season, and then they put a sticker on your c-card for that year. The rules are, unless your properly certed, you have to dive with one or more buddies or be with an affiliated dive shop under the supervision of an instructor or you don't get in! ____________________________________________ Regards, Arnold >> It's a personal decision, and assuming you have even a room temperature >>IQ, you can read up on, and probably receive even more information than, any [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >Understood. When did you (and what made you) realize you were "ready?" When your fear is tempered with the knowledge that "you can do it". >> It's sole benefit (besides fattening an instructors' wallet) is that some >>places/boats -might- let you solo dive. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Not the quary spring I go to. They card you to the hilt. Liability concerns. >Which makes me wonder then why they accept solo divers at all. Do they? Or is this a situation of two guys walking in and saying "this is my buddy" and then going their separate ways? >> My favorite dives inland are night AOW training dives, where I swim around >>completely in the dark and scare the crap out of the students. > ><Student's shock/terror face> GASP!!! Remind me not to take any training >dives with you!!!! :-) Try rescue. When I was a DM, we had one instructor that used things like blood capsules and fake spears to "enhance the experience". Imagine walking by and seeing a guy bubbling "blood" or walking out of the water with a spear through his leg. I got pretty good at faking DCS. >> As an added point, myself and others here also feel that -having- a buddy, >>in some situations, is possibly more dangerous than going solo. >> >> If you've ever been paired with a random idiot on a cattleboat, you'll >>understand. I was paired with a DM in 2004 in Cozumel. We got in the water and the next time I saw him was when we were making our stop. When I was in Cozumel in June, the DM paired me with another guy. He looked at my camera and said "I guess I'm on my own". >I do, even not having been paired as such. As my mom's instructor told her >(she is also PADI certified), "The most dangerous thing to you underwater >is not the sharks, corals, or other animals...... It's another human being!" Among friends, the saying is "when you solo, you f.ck up, you die. When diving with a buddy, you f.ck up, you both die" >> Best put yourself in the state of mind that goes with it. > >Will do. Thanks much. Just out of curiosity, how do you "log" solo >dives, or do you not bother? I never list the buddy in my book, never had a signature. They all look like any other dive. I'm an instructor. I solo a lot more than you might think. Like every OW dive. >____________________________________________ >Regards, > >Arnold Signaturedillon 666 permissions of the beast >>> My favorite dives inland are night AOW training dives, where I swim around >>>completely in the dark and scare the crap out of the students. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >the water with a spear through his leg. I got pretty good at faking >DCS. Actually, that wouldn't really bother me. I've seen worse in my former capacity as an EMT/PIT. Much worse, and I've seen the real thing, live and in person. I've actually seen people literally alive one second, and dead the next. When I wrote the above, I had the mental picture in mind of me being underwater at night finding my way, and having a DM/instructor come up from behind me: "BOO!" ____________________________________________ Regards, Arnold >>>> My favorite dives inland are night AOW training dives, where I swim around >>>>completely in the dark and scare the crap out of the students. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >underwater at night finding my way, and having a DM/instructor come >up from behind me: "BOO!" We were in Cozumel back in 86. Night diving the International Pier from La Cieba. There was a US fast missile frigate there. About half way through the dive, we heard, via an underwater speaker "move away from the ship or you will be fired upon". Pretty much ruined the dive. I later found out that they have fire fighting pumps that move several hundred gallons a second and all sorts of stuff gets sucked through the strainers. These days they'd probably drop the grenades into the water (which is what we were later told would happen) and then make the announcement. >____________________________________________ >Regards, > >Arnold Signaturedillon 666 permissions of the beast I've been diving solo for over 10 years. All of the guys that I went diving with were underwater hunters just like myself. Whenever you are hunting fish your "buddies" are doing the same, therfore it's basicaly solo. From that time on I very rarely dive with anyone else and I am perfectly happy doing it that way. By the way I am PADI certified. After all the certification is just a ticket to buy gear and get your tanks filled. Good luck > OK, to help get things going in 2006, here's another SCUBA related > question. [quoted text clipped - 67 lines] > > Arnold > I've been diving solo for over 10 years. All of the guys that I went > diving with were underwater hunters just like myself. Whenever you are [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I am PADI certified. After all the certification is just a ticket to buy > gear and get your tanks filled. Underwater hunting is one of the few times I really prefer to have a buddy. It appears that, over the years, sharks have learned what the sound of a speargun going off means. On a dive where I do well, it's not unusual for several sharks to arrive before I'm safely back aboard the dive boat. One hungry shark is annoying. With more than one, it's very nice to have someone to watch your back. Lee >> I've been diving solo for over 10 years. All of the guys that I went >> diving with were underwater hunters just like myself. Whenever you are [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >hungry shark is annoying. With more than one, it's very nice to have >someone to watch your back. Just as long as you're the first one out of the water. :-) >Lee > Signaturedillon 666 permissions of the beast >>Underwater hunting is one of the few times I really prefer to have a >>buddy. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >>hungry shark is annoying. With more than one, it's very nice to have >>someone to watch your back. > Just as long as you're the first one out of the water. :-) There is that. Actually, once I'm at the boat, most stress is over. When there are no sharks around, the speargun exits first. Where there are, the fish go out first. The speargun, with powerhead attached and loaded, goes out just before I do. Otherwise, I never exit the water with a powerhead on my gun, let alone on it and loaded. When I do, I warn the mate/captain/whoever that takes the gun from my hands. While I'm quite watchful any time there are sharks around, once at the ladder, I feel a bit more secure. It more or less covers one side while I watch the rest. Lee > OK, to help get things going in 2006, here's another SCUBA related question. > Being new to SCUBA myself, I'm curious as to the opinion of our more [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > dive buddy with me at all times. Nonetheless, the thought of being able to go > "solo" at some point in my diving life is intriguing. If you need a Class to dive solo then you're not ready to dive solo! Relative to the SDI/TDI Solo certification - Most experienced divers will tell you that, when you're ready to dive solo, you'll know. In my personal opinion, if you need a course to know how to safely dive solo, you're not ready to be diving solo in the first place. There are those, including me, who would take the course simply to have the card, simply because we want it. It's the only certification I can think of that I would seek simply to have the card. > As it turns out, the rating does me no good in resolving any "performance > anxiety" issues . . . You don't need a card to deal with your desire to improve your skills on your own. There is no law, no rule, no nothing that prevents a certified diver from chosing to dive alone. Of course, those that offer diving services, including access to privately owned diving facilities and those that provide transportation or training to divers, are free to impose whatever rules they and, most often, their insurance companies prefer. To practice alone, you may have to find your own places to dive and your own way to get to them. Pools, lakes and ocean shores are all suitable places to practice. > . . . since to qualify for it one > must have: > 1) "Advanced Open Water" or equivalent; > 2) Been diving for over 1 year; > 3) Accumulate 100 logged dives or more. I think two of the three are a likely prerequisite to being ready to dive solo. I find it unlikely that many people who have been diving less than a year or have completed less than 100 dives, have mastered the basic and crisis management skills necessary for safe solo diving. An Advanced Open Water certification is just a card. While it signifies that you've taken more than just entry level training, it does not ensure you are an advanced diver, or even a good diver. Similarly, the lack of an Advanced certification card does not mean you are not highly experienced and skillful. > By the time I do all of the above, I should *already* have resolved my > anxiety [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > good and seamless as my instructors make it look. I know that will take > time). It will take time, but more importantly, it's not a particularly valid goal. Learn to be the best diver you can be. Forget how good a diver your instructor may be. > Anyway, what's the feeling here on going "solo," given the appropriate > experience, > training, and conditions? When you're ready to dive solo, you'll know. The fact that you have to ask, suggests you're not ready. This, of course, is not the same as saying you should not practice on your own if that's how you learn best. Just make sure your practice is in a controlled environment and not out at the limit of what you are capable of doing safely even with a buddy. Lee >When you're ready to dive solo, you'll know. The fact that you have to ask, >suggests you're not ready. This, of course, is not the same as saying you >should not practice on your own if that's how you learn best. Just make >sure your practice is in a controlled environment and not out at the limit >of what you are capable of doing safely even with a buddy. Thank you for some sound advice. Bottom Line is, I'm definitely not "solo" ready in the context of people like yourself or Popeye. I was considering this only from the "controlled environment practice" context you mentioned. And you're also right about setting reasonable "best you can be" goals, certainly for the short term. After all, the "instructor" that made it look so "seamless" is a PADI "Course Director" with over 12 years and 1800 + logged dives to his credit. I think I'd have quite a ways to go before reaching his level if I ever could. For now, I'll be happy to get a decent grip on my neutral buoyancy and improve my water efficiency/physical fitness in an effort to use less air per dive. Thanks much. ____________________________________________ Regards, Arnold >>When you're ready to dive solo, you'll know. The fact that you have to >>ask, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Thank you for some sound advice. Bottom Line is, I'm definitely not "solo" > ready in the context of people like yourself or Popeye. IMNSHO, if you're asking these questions, you're close. Like I said, start slow. The pool will be a groove. One place I frequently dive solo is 18 feet deep and crystal clear, about the size of an olympic pool (it's a river in the mountains). I figure if I die in -that-, I probably deserved it. :-) >I was considering this > only from the "controlled environment practice" context you mentioned. And [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Arnold > Relative to the SDI/TDI Solo certification - Most experienced divers will > tell you that, when you're ready to dive solo, you'll know. In my personal > opinion, if you need a course to know how to safely dive solo, you're not > ready to be diving solo in the first place. Agreed, > There are those, including me, who would take the course simply to have > the card, simply because we want it. It's the only certification I can > think of that I would seek simply to have the card. I'd like to formalize with having a card ... wouldn't be the first one. The problem with this is that my consumer tolerance for how much I'm willing to pay for the card tends to go down. > > As it turns out, the rating does me no good in resolving any > > "performance anxiety" issues . . . > > You don't need a card to deal with your desire to improve your skills on > your own. There is no law, no rule, no nothing that prevents a certified > diver from chosing to dive alone. ...or learning *anything* without an Instructor, be it fish ID, photography, UW navigation, etc. Of course, it does tend to be more efficient to have at least a Mentor, and for some skills, it is also safer. But you can read a book on the subject pretty risk-free. > It will take time, but more importantly, it's not a particularly valid goal. > Learn to be the best diver you can be. FWIW, this also applies to many other dive specialties. Personally, I'm afraid that there's a lot of "Tech" divers today who are doing it only to prove their manhood, or somehow think that its otherwise necessary. This is recreational diving, so its supposed to be fun. BTW, just heard this past week of a new local (NJ) wreck discovery. Its an 18th Century sailer, unknown as yet how many masts. Best part IMO is that while NJ's known for being deep, this one is shallow enough to do on 32% Nitrox. -hh > I'd like to formalize with having a card ... wouldn't be the first one. > The problem with this is that my consumer tolerance for how much I'm > willing to pay for the card tends to go down. You've summed quite nicely the buying habits of the typical consumer in the United States (and maybe elsewhere.) You get something you don't need at a price you perceive as a bargain. > .. > > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > United States (and maybe elsewhere.) You get something you don't need at a > price you perceive as a bargain. Yes, pretty much - its a classical 'value added' assessment: since the training probably won't do much for me personally, the value of the class is the formality of the C-Card for the purpose of reducing the likelihood of hassles from stupid DM's. The same can also be applied to some divers for many of the other C-Cards: AOW, Nitrox, Basketweaving, etc. On the overarching question of solo diving, a dive buddy is not some magical panacea for dive safety: the buddy system is merely one more risk management tool that may be situationally applied. -hh > > It's the only certification I can think of that I would seek simply to > have the card. And of the people I've dove solo with, you are one that needs it least. > Nonetheless, the thought of being able to go > "solo" at some point in my diving life is intriguing. As has already been suggested, much of the reason for the courses is to separate people from their money, as well as to reduce liability. Your quarry probably accepts the solo cert because solo divers pay the same entry fee as divers with a buddy, and a solo certified diver who has a mishap represented themselves as having the training for the dive they were supposed to be doing. While many (most, in some places, such as the sue-happy US) places won't let you dive solo, many other places will, regardless of your certification. On my first dive of one trip to the Cayman Islands our DM made a point of saying that people diving solo was one of his pet peeves. A few days later when my wife was sitting the day out I casually headed for the back of the boat all by myself. The same DM asked if I was going solo and when I said, "as long as it won't bother you to much", he told me to have a good time. Of course you may not be able to find out an operator's real position until you try to go solo. I suspect my DM failed to enforce an "official" rule. > As it turns out, the rating does me no good in resolving any "performance > anxiety" issues, since to qualify for it one must have: > 1) "Advanced Open Water" or equivalent; > 2) Been diving for over 1 year; > 3) Accumulate 100 logged dives or more. I'll go Lee one better and say that only one of those is meaningful. Having been a diver for over year is meaningless, since it says nothing about how much diving you've done or how much you've learned. If somebody accumulates 100 dives in less than a year they're probably somebody who should be allowed to take the course, and there's a fair chance they're somebody who doesn't need the course. Lots of people won't learn or retain as much if they do 3 or 4 short dives per day during a 1 month vacation as they will if they take several months to do 100 dives. As a practical matter virtually nobody is going to log their frst 100 dives in less than several months, anyway. By the time you qualify for the course you should either be over the anxiety thing or realizing you aren't ready yet. Depending on how much real diving you've seen your instructor do, it might help to know that instructors usually work at looking good when they demonstrate different skills, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're particularly good divers. Buoyancy is soemthing that requires time in the water, regardles of how smart you are or how fast you pick things up. Any instructor who isn't teaching their first class should look pretty comfortable just hovering in the water, but so do most divers who have 100 dives and dive regularly. Your instructor is much more interested in your competence than in seeing perfection, because he already knows that a couple of course isn't enough to make you proficient. Until you've got a bunch of dives logged, he just expects you to understand what he taught and know you still have limitations. An OW course isn't supposed to do anything more than get you to the point that you can safely learn on your own. SignatureSteve The above can be construed as personal opinion in the absence of a reasonable belief that it was intended as a statement of fact. If you want a reply to reach me, remove the SPAMTRAP from the address. >> Nonetheless, the thought of being able to go >> "solo" at some point in my diving life is intriguing. > >As has already been suggested, much of the reason for the courses is to separate >people from their money, as well as to reduce liability. I didn't want to go there, but I think the way PADI has things organized with itself and all its affiliated dive shops etc., it most definitely has that "cha-ching" of financial success to it. Ah well, that's life I guess. I just have to manage it carefully. > Your quarry probably accepts >the solo cert because solo divers pay the same entry fee as divers with a buddy, and >a solo certified diver who has a mishap represented themselves as having the training >for the dive they were supposed to be doing. And they can make money on the transponder rentals. >While many (most, in some places, such as the sue-happy US) places won't let you dive >solo, many other places will, regardless of your certification. On my first dive of [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >have a good time. Of course you may not be able to find out an operator's real >position until you try to go solo. I suspect my DM failed to enforce an "official" rule. Or perhaps, he was "checking you out" the first time to make sure you were "good to go" before letting you go solo? > > As it turns out, the rating does me no good in resolving any "performance >> anxiety" issues, since to qualify for it one must have: [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >than a year they're probably somebody who should be allowed to take the course, and >there's a fair chance they're somebody who doesn't need the course. [... and later ...] >Buoyancy is soemthing that requires time in the water, >regardles of how smart you are or how fast you pick things up. This parallels a situation in a previous life of mine. I'm a retired EMT and a former PIT (Paramedic in Training). Long story short, there are some skills for which no amount of classroom or clinical training will prepare you. The only way to acquire them and the comfort/confidence to do the job is by field experience alone - just riding on call after call after call. And precisely as you've said, it doesn't matter how many years you've done basic EMT. What matters is how many calls you've been on and what kind of calls they were. I'd take someone who did one year in the inner city as opposed to a suburban volunteer who spent 5 years on one weekend duty shift when all they did was wash the ambulance and drill every week! >By the time you qualify for the course you should either be over the anxiety thing or >realizing you aren't ready yet. My original sentiment exactly. > Depending on how much real diving you've seen your >instructor do, it might help to know that instructors usually work at looking good >when they demonstrate different skills, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're >particularly good divers. Mine not only "looked that good," he *was* that good and that compassionate. But point well taken. Thanks much. ____________________________________________ Regards, Arnold > Or perhaps, he was "checking you out" the first time to make sure you were "good > to go" before letting you go solo? When he said to go ahead and have fun he also said I was a good diver, and I presume that if he thought I was lacking he'd have made me buddy up. I think we need to be responsible for ourselves, but I also think that if there's a DM going out on the boat they should be paying attention to see who might benefit from some help. I feel bad for the ones who encounter divers who really are in over their heads and aren't clever enough to take some good advice. You'll see a lot of negative comments about DM's here. There are certainly a lot who think they're the dive police, but at most destinations the DM's are full instructors and willing to offer any help you need. Some are brand new, and when they're young they think their training actually made them competent and better than their clients. Of course eventhe bad ones *are* betteer than many of their clients at a lot of destination resorts. It sound slike you started with a good instructor. Have you talked to him about solo? SignatureSteve The above can be construed as personal opinion in the absence of a reasonable belief that it was intended as a statement of fact. If you want a reply to reach me, remove the SPAMTRAP from the address. >It sounds like >you started with a good instructor. Have you talked to him about solo? No way. If you recall the Star Trek reference, he is defineitely "of the body" when it comes to PADI philosophy. But then again, he's a course director and the shop owner (a 5* IDC) so I'd expect nothing less. He wouldn't recommend or permit it. "Joy be with you.... Peace and contenment." ____________________________________________ Regards, Arnold (snip) I dive solo even when I'm diving with other divers. And I only dive with divers that are also diving solo. The idea that a buddy/divemaster/wet nurse will make you safer is a dangerous one. Self-reliance is the safer way. Learn it. > I dive solo even when I'm diving with other divers. And I only dive with > divers that are also diving solo. "oops" > The idea that a buddy/divemaster/wet nurse will make you safer is a > dangerous one. Self-reliance is the safer way. Learn it. The idea of abandoning buddy diving is the dangerous one. Got a buddy that used to be a good one, then started getting into that solo mode for certain types of diving, specifically his dismount, crawl through tight holes interests. Last time out diving together as a trio, the bad habits were ingrained enough that it made it hard to maintain a team for a definite team style dive. I ended up thumbing it, and wondering if the "solo mind" set will ruin a once excellent buddy. Doesn't ruin all, Lee Bell is an example of one who has excellent buddy skills (neither of us feels babysat / babysitting), but discussion of the matter with some of my "mentors" and their experiences is that one who starts thinking solo is no longer reliable enough, the mind-set itself is a problem. Definitely dampened the fun of that outing, and strengthened a desire to stay with buddies that don't have the questionable trait. Said with the added comment that what Mike or Doug may "get away with" may not be a good idea for John Doe. Curtis >> The idea that a buddy/divemaster/wet nurse will make you safer is a >> dangerous one. Self-reliance is the safer way. Learn it. > > The idea of abandoning buddy diving is the dangerous one. Not a bit. > but discussion of the matter with some of my "mentors" and their > experiences is that one who starts thinking solo is no longer reliable > enough, the mind-set itself is a problem. With all due respect, that's flatly preposterous. And I could go on about some of your mentors' mindsets, since you brought it up. > Said with the added comment that what Mike or Doug may "get away with" > may not be a good idea for John Doe. Which could well be said of the deep dives you "get away with" or the mixed gas dives (including nitrox) that you "get away with" or the cave dives that you "get away with", All at the same time. :-) World wide, millions of divers dive solo -everyday-, and "get away with" it. My only contention is that you should be doing it on purpose. :-) Statistically speaking, true solo deaths are so infrequent that to my knowledge, DAN doesn't even have a category for them. It's -possibly- arguable that more divers get killed by their buddies than die -truly- solo, i.e. not lost or buddy abandoned. Diving has a slight risk. That slight risk -may be- slightly increased by solo diving. Solo diving has rewards that other increased risk diving, like mix, or deep or deep wreck or cave, or ice diving, or fire diving, have as well. >> The idea of abandoning buddy diving is the dangerous one. > Not a bit. Quite so. >> but discussion of the matter with some of my "mentors" and their >> experiences is that one who starts thinking solo is no longer reliable [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > And I could go on about some of your mentors' mindsets, since you brought > it up. Unnecisary derogatory comment, foul. Yeah, we could turn it into a bullshit flame war, but I won't, I hope that isn't your intent. Have made it quite clear I'm here only for the fun, and that only. Simple statement, about chatting with a diver (who used to post here) and repeated discussion with others (who never have) about problems that arose during one of my dives. Multiple independent discussions, some with just other peers. What I actually got was confirmation and insight. Sorry, with all due respect, his insights I take as more valuable than any here, no insults intended. I personally had a recent dive trip dampened with bad habits aquired from being a solo diver, fact, period, not debatable, real issues, serious issues, not sugar-coatable. Endangered? No, not personally, didn't get that far. Resolved? Don't know yet. Do I firmly believe that solo divers tend to develope undesireable traits, ABSOLUTELY. Unique experience, not at all, just one that comes to mind quickly. >> Said with the added comment that what Mike or Doug may "get away with" >> may not be a good idea for John Doe. > > Which could well be said of the deep dives you "get away with" or the > mixed gas dives (including nitrox) that you "get away with" or the cave > dives that you "get away with", Well, that's a no-brainer. Thanks for putting me into that category. :-) Same time, I'm not gonna recommend to others of questionable abilities to try to match or exceed, or, for that matter, mimic dumb things I may have done. I probably do have all the skills believed "necisary" to solo dive. I know my skills, more importantly, I know my limitations. And, I dive almost exclusively with isolation manifolded doubles, even before that time almost never dove with less than an "H" valve. Still, I know a good buddy is another important piece of equipment not worth leaving behind. And, poor buddy choice is an excuse, not a reason. Curtis >>> The idea of abandoning buddy diving is the dangerous one. > >> Not a bit. > > Quite so. Support that in any way besides conjecture. Facts, figures, cites. >>> but discussion of the matter with some of my "mentors" and their >>> experiences is that one who starts thinking solo is no longer reliable [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Have made it quite clear I'm here only for the fun, and that only. If you bring it up as a qualifying comment, which was not necessary, then it's open to discussion. Some of your mentors have ridiculous ideas. You could have -just- as easily said "in my opinion" or "in my experience", but you didn't. You put forth an idea that's questionable at best, and an insult to people you dive with at worst, and used your "mentors" as a foundation. I was, actually, unusually diplomatic in my response. Furthermore, by implication, you just described myself and most of your friends here as "no longer reliable" and having "mindset problems" (because your "mentors" said so) when both statements are simply ridiculous. And below you describe about 700 of my dives as "dumb things I have done". I can prove my point statistically in ten seconds, and you simply can't. > Simple statement, about chatting with a diver (who used to post here) > and repeated discussion with others (who never have) about problems that > arose during one of my dives. Multiple independent discussions, some with > just other peers. What I actually got was confirmation and insight. > Sorry, with all due respect, his insights I take as more valuable than any > here, no insults intended. No insult intended or taken, but if you toss the ball, I'll swing the bat. Keep your ball, and your "mentors", at home. You have enough diving skill and experience to make any point you wish here without involving them. > I personally had a recent dive trip dampened with bad habits acquired > from being a solo diver, fact, period, not debatable, real issues, serious > issues, not sugar-coatable. That's fine, but, with respect, it's -your- reflection on -your- diving, not the practice of solo diving. Fact, period, not debatable. I can be as good a buddy as anyone you dive with, or ever met, for the dives I'm willing to do, if that's what we agree on. Any mistakes you might make, or almost make or whatever, when diving with a buddy have nothing to do with solo diving. Especially -my- solo diving. > Endangered? No, not personally, didn't get that far. Resolved? Don't > know yet. Do I firmly believe that solo divers tend to develop [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > to try to match or exceed, or, for that matter, mimic dumb things I may > have done. What, like cave diving to set records and sell equipment? Not aimed at you, personally. > I probably do have all the skills believed "necessary" to solo dive. I > know my skills, more importantly, I know my limitations. I know your (unusually proficient) skills as well, but please don't extent your (imagined) "limitations" to others. None of us need to be in the water at all. Every step we take into the water after that is a calculated risk. > And, I dive almost exclusively with isolation manifolded doubles, even > before that time almost never dove with less than an "H" valve. Still, I > know a good buddy is another important piece of equipment not worth > leaving behind. > > And, poor buddy choice is an excuse, not a reason. This statement simply isn't realistic for -most- divers. We cannot always choose our buddies, and, don't always have a buddy to choose. You dive in an -extremely- narrow environment that the vast majority of the divers in the world simply cannot duplicate. > Curtis > Some of your mentors have ridiculous ideas. f.ck you on that one. >> Some of your mentors have ridiculous ideas. > > f.ck you on that one. I love you to <wetsloppykiss> Now defend your point. >>> Some of your mentors have ridiculous ideas. >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Now defend your point. Defend my point? I have nothing to defend. I am the one following the recommendations of the majority of the dive agencies, including the ones I hold certifications with, not to mention sound dive practice for my technical interests. But, just for fun, what part of getting used to doing it alone makes one a better team player? Just for some of us who think of it as a team endeavor. Curtis >>>> Some of your mentors have ridiculous ideas. >>> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > I have nothing to defend. Then, what was your point? >I am the one following the recommendations of the majority of the dive >agencies, including the ones I hold certifications with, not to mention >sound dive practice for my technical interests. So you're citing PADI as a credible source? Do you wear a snorkel when you dive? TDI? Those nice people that brought you the e-mail no-dive nitrox certification? Or the use of a dive computer, endorsed by every single dive agency, except one? Either you can provide empirical evidence for your point, or you can't. > But, just for fun, what part of getting used to doing it alone makes > one a better team player? What part of solo diving involves being a team player? Or contradicts being a team player when there's a team? The two simply aren't related. > Just for some of us who think of it as a team endeavor. > > Curtis >>I am the one following the recommendations of the majority of the dive >>agencies, including the ones I hold certifications with, not to mention [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Do you wear a snorkel when you dive? Every time I solo, I wear my snorkel, reduncancy thingy, you know. > TDI? Those nice people that brought you the e-mail no-dive nitrox > certification? Brought me? Sorry, checked all 6 cards, no TDI or email. > Or the use of a dive computer, endorsed by every single dive agency, > except one? But I use an approved computer every time I solo, honest, redundancy thingy and all. > Either you can provide empirical evidence for your point, or you can't. Chasing your tail. Damn, save that sh.t for Johnnie Moneyslacks. >> But, just for fun, what part of getting used to doing it alone makes >> one a better team player? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > The two simply aren't related. Not meaning to be condescending, so I'll just skip what I was about to say regarding the correlation. For the sake of saving you some tail chasing, you are the one recommending to a newbie solo is cool, I'm not telling him to lose his snorkel.....today, anyway. Sell him on a CCR next, cool item, proves you're a real diver. Nite-nite, drive safe, Curtis Whatever. > Every time I solo, I wear my snorkel, reduncancy thingy, you know. Uh... Signature"A bunch of us went down to Gettysburg. Some of us didn't come back. If you weren't there, you'll never understand." --Unknown Infantryman >> Every time I solo, I wear my snorkel, reduncancy thingy, you know. > > Uh... Relax, it's a good dry one, paid $69.95 for it.......<cough> Curtis > >> Every time I solo, I wear my snorkel, reduncancy thingy, you know. > > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Curtis Well, in that case, it will deliver breathing gas for the rest of your life. Signature"A bunch of us went down to Gettysburg. Some of us didn't come back. If you weren't there, you'll never understand." --Unknown Infantryman >>>> Every time I solo, I wear my snorkel, reduncancy thingy, you know. >>> Relax, it's a good dry one, paid $69.95 for it.......<cough> > Well, in that case, it will deliver breathing gas for the rest of your > life. Give or take a couple of minutes. Lee >> Relax, it's a good dry one, paid $69.95 for it.......<cough> > Well, in that case, it will deliver breathing gas for the rest of your > life. It would if I could find a way to stop the leaks around the nail....... Curtis "Magilla" wrote: > I am the one following the recommendations of > the majority of the dive agencies, Do any of your dives involve nitrox? You know, that devil gas that those agencies were railing against in the not-so-distant past. Clearly the agencies whose recommendations you follow change their recommendations every so often. I don't doubt that some of those changes are driven much more by marketing concerns, while others are based on more objective considerations. How do you decide which of their recommendations to follow and how did you decide to ignore recommendations about a snorkel? Either solo diving is more dangerous than diving with a buddy or it isn't (well, there's the slim chance they're both equally dangerous), but nobody has good evidence to tell us which. Will your opinion change if several more agencies offer solo courses, or will you base any changes in your opinion only on evidence? Even with proper training and the anal retentiveness to strictly follow the rules on every dive, much of the diving you apparently approve of definitely has more risk than plenty of the solo dives that other members of the newsgroup have done. Nobody here is encouraging others to dive solo. All they're doing is offering opinions and advice to those who are considering it. SignatureSteve The above can be construed as personal opinion in the absence of a reasonable belief that it was intended as a statement of fact. If you want a reply to reach me, remove the SPAMTRAP from the address. > "Magilla" wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > solo. All they're doing is offering opinions and advice to those who are > considering it. I see your point, but, -I'm- encouraging him to solo dive. I find it convenient, and -extremely- rewarding. I think almost everybody does solo dive, intentionally or otherwise, at one time or another. He obviously has the curiosity. I'm just encouraging him to educate himself, to be prepared, to think it through. Not to learn he's a solo diver -after- the fact, as I did. It simply -cannot- hurt to be self reliant. If you're not 100% self reliant, how can a buddy trust his life to you? > -I'm- encouraging him to solo dive. No, you're encouraging him to trust himself and not be afraid of doing what he was already considering. SignatureSteve The above can be construed as personal opinion in the absence of a reasonable belief that it was intended as a statement of fact. If you want a reply to reach me, remove the SPAMTRAP from the address. ""Magilla"" yahoo.com > But, just for fun, what part of getting used to doing it alone makes one a > better team player? Just for some of us who think of it as a team > endeavor. I didn't see what led to this, so I might be off on the context, but the answer appears pretty simple. It's called personal responsibility. If you, in all ways and things, prepare yourself to dive solo, the probability of your having to depend on a buddy is reduced. Also, the process probably better focuses you on the variety of things that can go wrong and the range of ways to deal with them if they do. So, you become a better team player both by conserving team resources for those that really need them and by being a better team resource when someone else needs you. I know that, in certain diving environments, you believe all planning and activities should be team oriented. Without getting into the merits of that position, I think you also know that, in other environments, that kind of planning and coordination isn't always the complete answer to things that can go wrong. Lee >> But, just for fun, what part of getting used to doing it alone makes one >> a better team player? Just for some of us who think of it as a team >> endeavor. > I didn't see what led to this, so I might be off on the context, but the > answer appears pretty simple. It's called personal responsibility. If [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > really need them and by being a better team resource when someone else > needs you. Lee, this was part of the crossed wires in communication between Popeye & I. Things like sentences in different paragraphs are a change in sub-subject, and words in quotation marks having a differently meaning from usual, every statement is not an invitation to debate, etc, on my part. Clarity is not always my strong point, here anyways. This is a comment directly from my experiences, in water and in analysis. Obviously, I dive more often where buddies are far more than a luxury, and my value of a buddy follows me to dives where it may be less critical by "typical rec scuban" standards. Experiences that do help shape my opinion of solo-ists in general, however. Focusing on yourself rather than your dive group (not meaning the whole boat) in my view does NOT make you a better buddy diver. To the contrary, solo mentality seems to give one the mind set that since you're ok, buddy is ok and does not need your attention. The subtle symptoms I'm thinking about are not as obvious in our common dives, nor do you fit the stereotype I have developed. This is a narrow idea that is not addressing the entire subject of solo, merely the part that solo mentality is not a good thing, in my very strong opinion if I need to clarify that. Preparing to dive solo & preparing to be self sufficient mean distinctly different things, personally I think I'll avoid the former and re-word the latter. Curtis ""Magilla" wrote >> I didn't see what led to this, so I might be off on the context, but the >> answer appears pretty simple. It's called personal responsibility. If [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > from usual, every statement is not an invitation to debate, etc, on my > part. Clarity is not always my strong point, here anyways. There's no real debate between you and me on this subject. The concept of team varies with the situation. You, of all the people I know, understand it, and know that you understand it in more than one context. My response to your "straight line" was not directed at you, but at others involved, or at least reading, this thread. > This is a comment directly from my experiences, in water and in analysis. > Obviously, I dive more often where buddies are far more than a luxury, and > my value of a buddy follows me to dives where it may be less critical by > "typical rec scuban" standards. Experiences that do help shape my opinion > of solo-ists in general, however. Of course. Depending on the situation, we agree to varying degrees. If we didn't, we couldn't dive together. My point is not in support of solo diving, but rather, in support of the kind of thinking, training and experience that one should put into how to dive solo most safely. I strongly support those factors independent of the choice to employ them in an actual solo dive. As you know, I sometimes dive solo and frequently dive as a same ocean buddy. You also know that, when I do, I'm not doing the kind of dive that comes anywhere near my personal risk limits. By far, the majority of my diving is casual, plan on the fly, recreation that neither stresses me nor stresses my skills and experience. On the few occasions where I do approach my risk limits, either in terms of depth, time or overhead environment, I pay a lot more attention to the team concept. I don't ever strive for the kind of team coordination you enforce for your most technical dives. Then again, I don't do that kind of diving. Regardless, I believe the skills that let me do a modest solo dive safely also contribute to my ability to do a team dive more safely. That's my only point in this discussion. > Focusing on yourself rather than your dive group (not meaning the whole > boat) in my view does NOT make you a better buddy diver. No argument. It is the skills one develops to allow safer solo diving that are the contribution. A solo attitude on a true team dive, as opposed to a SOB dive, is not appropriate. I don't think any of us would disagree on this point. It's a little like competitive bicycling. You go out and learn skills that make you a better solo competitor. Those same skills contribute to your ability to be a part of a racing team but only when combined with other, team specific, skills and attitude. > To the contrary, solo mentality seems to give one the mind set that since > you're ok, buddy is ok and does not need your attention. The subtle > symptoms I'm thinking about are not as > obvious in our common dives, nor do you fit the stereotype I have > developed. Again, no argument. At the very least, it's important for each diver to share a common understanding of the dive perameters. Some solo divers, despite their skill levels, are not ever suitable team members. Some aren't even suitable SOB buddies. The skills necessary for safe solo diving are not all the skiills necessary to a true buddy team. Without the other, decidedly non solo skills and attitude, there will be no effective team. Perhaps I've not emphasized it enough, even though I've said it several times. The key is reaching as complete as possible an understanding before the dive starts. You and I do that before every dive we do together. If more people did, there would be fewer conflicts, fewer missed communications during a dive and, in my opinion, fewer diving accidents. > This is a narrow idea that is not addressing the entire subject of solo, > merely the part that solo mentality is not a good thing, in my very strong > opinion if I need to clarify that. Preparing to dive solo & preparing to > be self sufficient mean distinctly different things, personally I think > I'll avoid the former and re-word the latter. Good enough. It's no surprise that the solo "mentality" conflicts with the thinking of someone highly team oriented. The solo mentality and the team mentality can not completely mesh into an effective team, but there are levels between the two extremes that can work quite well. Assume, hypothetically, the I'm the ultimate in safe solo diving. I can do anything I need to, to stay out of trouble and to get out of any situation I might let myself get into anywah. OK, so there is no such person, but assume it anyway. You and I begin a dive that we, together, understand is a team dive. In my context, this does not mean I depend on you for anything. It does mean that I have to be ready to support you any time it's necessary. The same is true in reverse. Each of us has to be ready, willing and able to support the other, but neither of us necessarily has to depend on the other to do what we, as ultimate solo divers, can do for ourselves. Needless to say, the closer our skill sets match, the better team we can form. What you think of as the best possible buddy team for the diving you do is, quite simply, the closest possible match of skills and understanding and the highest possible level of cross support. Lee > As you know, I sometimes dive solo and frequently dive as a same ocean > buddy. You also know that, when I do, I'm not doing the kind of dive that [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > strive for the kind of team coordination you enforce for your most > technical dives. Then again, I don't do that kind of diving. "Enforce" is a bad description, it's not generally a problem since I am lucky enough to dive with similiarly trained and like minded divers who in many cases are way ahead of me (I'm in no hurry to be on the fast track). Times I dive with people closer to my experience, it's pre-dive agreements, including when you and I dive together (overall, you're definitely ahead, on specialties, figure we have a closer balance). If all buddies sorted out the details as we do, I reckon far fewer would be itching to ditch their buddies. Of course, last few times we have approached my experience limits for ocean for various reasons, figure you were trying a new thing or two also. > Regardless, I believe the skills that let me do a modest solo dive safely > also contribute to my ability to do a team dive more safely. That's my > only point in this discussion. That is where I disagree, without debating. You, personally, ok, I will not disagree, you're more an exception. What I am talking about is the subconscience habits of the mind set, causing skills to be used to a lesser degree than are available, therefore detracting from them. > No argument. It is the skills one develops to allow safer solo diving > that are the contribution. A solo attitude on a true team dive, as > opposed to a SOB dive, is not appropriate. I don't think any of us would > disagree on this point. We're getting as close as we can, considering I'm one just not sold on solo being a desireable choice, and still don't think it should be openly encouraged. Same token, unlike the anti-gunners attitudes, I'm not gonna tell you to stop. ;-) Curtis ""Magilla"" wrote >> |
Enable EMail Alerts
Start New Thread
Reply to this Message