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Scuba Forum / General / December 2003GUE and O2
How does GUE track O2 toxicity? It’s not covered in Dplan. T > How does GUE track O2 toxicity? Take a PADI class. You're not qualified to know anything that GUE teaches.  Signature"We're going to rush the hijackers." -Jeremy Glick, aboard United Airlines flight 93, September 11, 2001 > How does GUE track O2 toxicity? > It’s not covered in Dplan. > > T If you ain't convulsing, you ain't over "the limit". :-) -R On Thu, 27 Nov 2003 17:28:50 -0500, srspencer@hotmail.com wrote ... >How does GUE track O2 toxicity? If you die, then it's toxic... If not, then it's not... <grin> srspencer@hotmail.com schrieb: > How does GUE track O2 toxicity? > Itâs not covered in Dplan. > > T By IP-Method (Individual Preference) Matthias >srspencer@hotmail.com schrieb: >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >Matthias Could you please expand on. IP and GF I'm old school. I kind of blend Voyager, V-plan and the old standby DCIEM field book. It has worked for the past ten years or so. Before that I just used the DCIEM field book. I'm not looking to get out of the water sooner. Just think carrying it around on a PDA would be nice. I use to use a Lap top complements of my job. That went with my retirement. I have been eye balling D plan because of the ability to run on a Palm. Because after the final testing of the mix some final tweaking of the dive plan may be in order. (not very often, but I run within 0.5 %) That and having a mixing program that travels, would be nice. Or I'm just being anal. So far I haven't had any problems with He. Air is another matter :) But it's been 7 yrs and counting. With recent He prices the He component of the dive is costing me $16 cdn per dive. Twins He $16 /dive O2 $2/ dive Air top $ 10 / dive Travel gas plus deco gas $20 / dive Total $48 / dive just for gas not including overhead. Plus rental on storage cylinders (~292.1 cu.ft. @ 2640 psi) at $105 cdn each per year. I carry at times 3 to 8 cylinders, it adds up. I guess I could air top the used twins then dive shallower, but I seem to dive to the same depth fairly often. With all this added cost a CCR is not looking that expensive. I wonder selling my collection of tanks might even fund it. <grin> That and the rumor mill says He supplies could be exhausted by 2008. The only thing I got against CCR is I have lost a few friends to them. But none of the was anal about safety or mechanically inclined. They went through the motions, but I doubt their heart was in it. That's what bit them in the a.s. I did look at the RB80 but at only 8x the efficiency of open circuit, it's a hard sell. Mind you the safety and set up got my attention. Now if they came out with a closed version, oh baby come to Poppa. I'd eat crow do the GUE thing just to get my hands on her. The other closed units around don't do it for me. I know a few guys that use them in their line of work and they don't have a lot of nice things to say about them. More to the point they no longer work in pairs. With the attitude better to lose one than two on deep runs. They complain the accident rate is high. But these are government funded and we all know how we like to save tax payers dollars in critical areas. Maybe the pencil pushers should dive them, then there might be a change. Some times the cheapest equipment / bid is not the way to go. As one of our nation defence heads said not to long ago. "I wish we had the same dollars we spend on 3rd world aid." I bet he no longer has a job. I seen the published numbers at the time and it was three times the amount we spend on defence. T > He $16 /dive > O2 $2/ dive [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Total $48 / dive just for gas not including overhead. Leave out the O2. You'll save a couple bucks and have no worries about O2 toxicity. >> He $16 /dive >> O2 $2/ dive [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >Leave out the O2. You'll save a couple bucks and have no worries about O2 >toxicity. It's not the 2 bucks worth of O2 I'm winning about. It's the dam cost of He. I guess you have to pay to play :) T > Twins > He $16 /dive [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Total $48 / dive just for gas not including overhead. If you object to that, maybe not a good idea to consider moving North ( and East!) it works out at around ?150/J for He here by the time we've got it shipped , OC dives work out at around ?50/each for gas- however rebreathers still don't actually work out cheaper in the long run if you're doing what is essentially 'deep air' type depths, you just spend the money in different places >> Twins >> He $16 /dive [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >is essentially 'deep air' type depths, you just spend the money in different >places Holy cow that's over 100 cdn for a twin fill. I guess at that price I should stop crying. So how do you afford it, live in a card board box? Wife loves me, but I don't think she's willing to go that far. And she will not let me sell the kids. Cute, blonde , blue eyed, brings the highest dollar. Oh well. I wonder if I could save on the grocery bill? Naw they'll never go for puppy chow ;) T > Holy cow that's over 100 cdn for a twin fill. > I guess at that price I should stop crying. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > I wonder if I could save on the grocery bill? > Naw they'll never go for puppy chow ;) Umm, went and got an Inspiration, although not to cut the gas bills down - but diving's relatively cheap here cos the sea's close >> Holy cow that's over 100 cdn for a twin fill. >> I guess at that price I should stop crying. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >Umm, went and got an Inspiration, although not to cut the gas bills down - >but diving's relatively cheap here cos the sea's close I hear you too about cost. But I think some of the cavers around here don't realize that some of us have to pay charter fees (60 to 100 cdn plus) for dives. Or maintain your own boat (which seems to cost more). It really drives the cost of diving up. If I didn't have charter / personal boat costs. He costs would be a mute point. I'm not lucky enough to be able to pull up to the dive site in my land yacht, set up some protection. (Hell I burn easy too). Then lay out the lawn furniture and B-Q. Just me but I prefer to charter over taking mine out, it is too much extra work and liability. That said I don't mind using it for warm sport type dives, but then there's still the extra work. T > > But I think some of the cavers around here don't realize that some of > us have to pay charter fees (60 to 100 cdn plus) for dives. > Or maintain your own boat (which seems to cost more). > It really drives the cost of diving up. > If I didn't have charter / personal boat costs. > He costs would be a mute point. We run our own boats as a club, grants and things make it affordable, there aren't really any charter boats oon the islands- there are a couple,one of which we can use for basically the cost of the diesel, which means we'll charter it for a gas dive between two of us, probably around ?20 each - but otherwise if you want to see a wreck you're on your own. Most people own their own boats as well - but for fishing Today was a shore dive bottle hunting ( very successful) in one of the local harbours > But I think some of the cavers around here don't realize that some of > us have to pay charter fees (60 to 100 cdn plus) for dives. > Or maintain your own boat (which seems to cost more). Hmm, let me see. So far this year, I've paid $130 US per month for dockage (less than half price thanks to club membership). Until recently, the boat got about a half mile to the gallon. Gas costs more than $2.00 per gallon at a marine pump. Ocean's about 8 miles from the dock and the dive sites are up to 20 miles from there. Figure $120 in fuel per trip, minimum. Double that for a fishing trip. My insurance, just ordinary old boat and liability, runs around $1,000 a year. I rebuilt my motors this year. That was a bit over $12,000. After the rebuild, the boat gets about a mile to a gallon, much better, but still not cheap. I still have to replace the props. That'll be somewhere in the range of $1,000 for each set. I carry spares. My boat is not particularly expensive. I think it's safe to say that it's more expensive to pay charter fees than to own the dive boat . . . unless you do it commercially. Even then, it's not a sure thing. Lee >> But I think some of the cavers around here don't realize that some of >> us have to pay charter fees (60 to 100 cdn plus) for dives. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > >Lee Did you forget the word not :). As in not more expensive. T Yes > >> But I think some of the cavers around here don't realize that some of > >> us have to pay charter fees (60 to 100 cdn plus) for dives. [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > T > > But I think some of the cavers around here don't realize that some of > > us have to pay charter fees (60 to 100 cdn plus) for dives. > > Or maintain your own boat (which seems to cost more). > > Hmm, let me see. So far this year, I've paid ... have you ever made a spreadsheet to analyze your costs? for one small boat several years ago, it cost $38 to turn the key on. everything else was above and beyond that. > $130 US per month for dockage > (less than half price thanks to club membership). Until recently, the boat [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Lee > > > But I think some of the cavers around here don't realize that some of > > > us have to pay charter fees (60 to 100 cdn plus) for dives. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > have you ever made a spreadsheet to analyze your costs? No, and for good reason. If I ever did a real analysis of the cost, I'd find another hobby. The other day, somebody told me I was lucky to get my lobster for free. I informed them that the ones they had just eaten were, indeed, a bargain. They gost a bit over two hundred dollars each. They came from my Tortugas trip year before last. Lee > I did look at the RB80 but at only 8x the efficiency of open circuit, > it's a hard sell. > Mind you the safety and set up got my attention. > Now if they came out with a closed version, oh baby come to Poppa. > I'd eat crow do the GUE thing just to get my hands on her. > The other closed units around don't do it for me. Hi, we used less than 2 80cuft stages on an 8 hour bottom-time down to 190ft. For us it would make no difference if we would only need let?s say half a 40cuft, since the OC-Bailout will stay the same. So you still have to carry large quantities of Bailout-gas anyway. It would not be difficult to come out with a KISS-style CCR, but there is just no reason for it for our type of diving. Greetings Michael www.ekpp.org >> I did look at the RB80 but at only 8x the efficiency of open circuit, >> it's a hard sell. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >Michael >www.ekpp.org Question about the bail out gas? Do you each carry enough or share? IE team approach two divers carry enough for one diver. Considering the track record of the serous RB divers around here I have yet to hear of one going to his bail out. Second do you run a bail out that is suitable for a range, so that you can just keep using it for a series of dives? As long as it tests ok, would you feel ok with keeping it around for say 90 days? That cost I could live with. Maybe it's time to look at the RB80 again. I just don't like the Inspiration (very common here) it doesn't rig well. Too much plastic. I 'm a plate diver from? Ok my first plate wasn't a stolen stop sign, but close. The rigging on the RB80 is very plate like. Last question if you please. 300 ft for 30 min how much He (cu ft) would you use? (dplan is fine) Guys a round here with CCR use nothing to speak of, coffee money. Where I spend my kids education fund :). thx T > On Sat, 29 Nov 2003 12:58:22 +0100, Michael Waldbrenner > > Question about the bail out gas? [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > 300 ft for 30 min how much He (cu ft) would you use? (dplan is fine) > Guys a round here with CCR use nothing to speak of, coffee money. Can't comment on the rb80 - but it is easy to change the rigging on an Inspiration to a backplate and harness system if that's all you don't like. I'm not known for being gentle on my kit, and I've yet to break my unit - I ran with the original for almost 2 years, always meaning to change it at some point - it's now on my original steel backplate run up for me by a friend in the nearest shipyard with an oxycheq wing, and two TX40's off the dil and O2 cylinders - the rest is pretty much the same as it was in the box. As for bail out, I've never gone to oc, I have once been in a position where I would have been better doing so than staying on the loop ( isn't hindsight great) but I've a couple of friends who have bailed to oc, one for a co2 hit he was lucky to survive, and the other for a stuck solenoid on the Lusy - what it taught me, was the same as OC - I carry enough to get me to the surface in ( reasonably unbent) safety on my own, a bottom bail out of a generic 16/50 and then a 7 of 50% - allowing for the 3l of dil and the O2 as well - I'd hope a buddy was with me ( I dive with guys with cameras) but would't bank on it. For gas - I did 30minutes at 65m last weekend ( max 68m, but ran the shallower schedule anyway) rt around 100 mins and used around 30-40b of dil and about 100-120b of O2 . The bail out cyclinders. get checked every dive, and replaced about every 3-6 months. >> On Sat, 29 Nov 2003 12:58:22 +0100, Michael Waldbrenner >> > Question about the bail out gas? [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] >and about 100-120b of O2 . The bail out cyclinders. get checked every dive, >and replaced about every 3-6 months. Sweet right, to put in dollars the guys I dive with say it runs them about 12 cdn per 2 dives ( done back to back) for gas and materials for the CCR. Mean while I'm dropping 100 to 160 cdn. They say the up side is, I am a floating gas station. I'm also getting tired of humping all the tanks. Maybe I should just up my coffee and stop whining. Or charge a fee for carrying part of their back up. I’m notorious for finishing with more than have my gas. So diving the same profiles, I’m the perfect back up. That and with all the dam tanks / exhaust bubbles I’m easy to find. The other thing that bugs me is RB’s are so dam quiet. Not that long ago I was inside a wreck where there was considerable lose of life. I had stopped for a pee and one of the guys sneaked up on me. Scared the crap out of me. His excuse was he didn’t see me exhale and I wasn’t moving. I told him dead guys generally don’t hover. I have yet to master the pee and swim thing :) (bashful kidneys) T to find. > The other thing that bugs me is RB's are so dam quiet. > Not that long ago I was inside a wreck where there was considerable [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > His excuse was he didn't see me exhale and I wasn't moving. > I told him dead guys generally don't hover. :) stealth mode can be fun - we never see any other divers but ourselves round here, but just occasionally when south it is entertaining to turn all your lights off and duck under a bit of wreckage........ Course, it works the other way round too - last time I was on the Markgraf in Scapa, I'd stopped to watch a fish, must've stopped moving too, cos I don't know who got the biggest fright me or the oc recreational guy at his depth limits who'd prodded me thinking I wuz expired "Fiona Watson" <fiona.watson@zetnet.co.uk> wrote in message news:3fca13ca$0$8573 > Course, it works the other way round too - last time I was on the Markgraf > in Scapa, I'd stopped to watch a fish, must've stopped moving too, cos I > don't know who got the biggest fright me or the oc recreational guy at his > depth limits who'd prodded me thinking I wuz expired LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thanks Fiona -- I needed a good laugh. I can just see that in my mind and it makes me giggle. Kimber > Question about the bail out gas? > Do you each carry enough or share? Normally each divers carry enough gas. But in some bigger caves one might need the bailoutgas of the buddy too. That is mostly the case when we dive the Double-RB80 to prevent a total breather-loss. > Considering the track record of the serous RB divers around here I > have yet to hear of one going to his bail out. If this is true i do not want to be the first one :-) > Second do you run a bail out that is suitable for a range, so that you > can just keep using it for a series of dives? In passive SCR the Backgas is always suitable for range between Hypoxia and MOD. And yes, for different depths one might need another gas. That is why in the US we have 2 sets of Rebreather-Frames with doubles. > As long as it tests ok, would you feel ok with keeping it around for > say 90 days? We keep it over a year sometimes, no problem ! > The rigging on the RB80 is very plate like. Yepp ! > 300 ft for 30 min how much He (cu ft) would you use? (dplan is fine) 75% is a good guess in my opinion. We also have a lot of divers here diving homoeopathic Helium-Mixtures. Greetings Michael snip.... >The other closed units around don't do it for me. >I know a few guys that use them in their line of work and they don't [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >But these are government funded and we all know how we like to save >tax payers dollars in critical areas. snip.... I'm surprised any government funded project is advanced enough to be using rebreathers. What line of work are they in? Military? .. > I'm surprised any government funded project is advanced enough to be > using rebreathers. What line of work are they in? Military? Are you trolling? Or are you clueless? > .. > > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Or are you clueless? Having met Charles I can say he is definitely not clueless. He's probably one of the most clued in people that pop in here from time to time. I have a feeling he knows exactly what he's doing. Brian Edmonton, Alberta www.mossmanscubaventures.com > > .. > > > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Edmonton, Alberta > www.mossmanscubaventures.com OK, coming from you and Scott, I'd accept that. I associated "government funded diving" with military, and as far as I know, quite a bit, if not most military diving is done on CCRs. Nevertheless, I apoligize for the comment. Alan > OK, coming from you and Scott, I'd accept that. I associated > "government funded diving" with military, and as far as I know, quite a > bit, if not most military diving is done on CCRs. Nevertheless, I > apoligize for the comment. NOAA has a pretty big budget for sci diving, and there's a whole bunch of grant-supported stuff going on. Recovery of the Huntley and recovery of the engine and turret from the Monitor (which did include some military divers) dumped millions of fed funds into non-military diving. > .. > > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Or are you clueless? Now, Allen, that wasn't nice. Charles is the Diving Officer for the Canadian Department of Fisheries up in BC, and is quite well clued in. The US Parks SCRU uses rebreathers from time to time, such as when they mapped Bikini Atoll, and had to try and safe a bunch of the ordinance. I lost a shipment to him over that *friggen* border. That makes 4 in 3 years. Talking to Canadian Customs is like beating the ground with your forehead (probably a lot like talking to US Customs). UPS says they dropped it in Bellingham, Canadian Customs says they never saw it. Scott > UPS says they dropped it in Bellingham, Canadian Customs says they never saw > it. > > Scott General consensus seems to be "Avoid UPS like the Plague when shipping over a border" I use USPS when I do have to order something from the states, and ask people i win bids from on Ebay to use USPS or FedEx rather than UPS. no problems with those two yet. rhys >.. >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Or are you clueless? Mostly Column A, but possibly a little of Column B. The .ca at the end of my address could stand for Clueless Arsehole, or CAnada, as you wish. :) Back when we were still diving in meltwater from the receding continental ice sheet I was trained on rebreathers by retired USN personnel, and I'm quite aware of what NOAA and AAUS scientists like Richard Pyle have contributed to the subject. No disrespect to those down south intended. >snip.... > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >I'm surprised any government funded project is advanced enough to be >using rebreathers. What line of work are they in? Military? I not at liberty to say. But if your a terrorist near or on a body of water. Or if you plant ordnance in water, I wouldn't what to be you. Then again the gear they use I wouldn't want to be them either. Let’s just say because of their personal commitment they get the job done with great effectiveness. But as tax payers we should put more valve on the lives that protect our way of life. It’s a sad fact we spend more money on relief than our own protection (Can.)or help protecting our neighbors. (US) T >>I'm surprised any government funded project is advanced enough to be >>using rebreathers. What line of work are they in? Military? [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >T Ah. That type of government funded project. Probably not much different than the situation with the 35 year old Sea King helicopters our navy relies on. I thought you might be referring to research. Given the regulations covering diving in the various jurisdictions in this country I would have been very surprised to hear of someone successfully using rebreathers for work. >>>I'm surprised any government funded project is advanced enough to be >>>using rebreathers. What line of work are they in? Military? [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >have been very surprised to hear of someone successfully using >rebreathers for work. You must be referring to the newer Sea Kings <grin> It is nice to know that our government canceled the contract for their replacement. The penalties for canceling the contract far exceeded the cost of the new helicopters. So we ended up putting out the cash and still got nada. Not to nit pick but I think they have been complaining that they needed replacing for the past 35 years:) Didn’t they see service in the Korean War? And the tail end of the Second World War? T [snip] > You must be referring to the newer Sea Kings <grin> > It is nice to know that our government canceled the contract for their [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > needed replacing for the past 35 years:) > Didn???t they see service in the Korean War? Technically, yes, considering that the Korean War is not over. > And the tail end of the Second World War? No. The Sea King first flew in 1959 and entered US Navy service in 1961. It did not enter service with third world countries like Canada and England until later. >[snip] >> You must be referring to the newer Sea Kings <grin> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >It did not enter service with third world countries like Canada and >England until later. Hey, we like to think of our selves as a leader in 3 rd world countries. Do not, knock us too hard, your draft dodgers had to hide somewhere. Then there's the welfare funded terrorists training grounds. I'm just grateful you guys got those smart bombs. Do you think you could lob one over here and miss one of those terrorist camps. Say hit parliament hill by mistake, instead. OR SEND SOME OF YOUR DUMB a.s FRIENDS WHO COUNTED BALLOTS IN FLORIDA. To count ballots in our future elections. Since we are over run with third world types, how do you think our eletions go? We need a change of government and the voting thing just isn't doing it, we are out numbered. Could you help us out? Imagration is it really just Librals buying votes? T They tell you to take a class and then wonder why a dumbass like you, who hates everything GUE does, cares how GUE does it or why you have deco plan in the first place. > How does GUE track O2 toxicity? > It's not covered in Dplan. > > T >They tell you to take a class and then wonder why a dumbass like you, who >hates everything GUE does, cares how GUE does it or why you have deco plan [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> >> T I don't hate everything GUE. We have been diving that way years before GUE. I don't like taking tech to the masses because Joe Diver generally doesn't have a handle on sport diving. I don't like taking sport diving to the general masses. Because Joe public has problem walking and chewing gum at the same time. Then there is some agencies teaching trimix to 15 year olds. If you ever use He you realize pretty quick where the term "liquid courage comes from" Just an observation but some divers don't like the narc from air and because of it. It poses a physical depth limit for them, which they observe out of fear. If you gave them HE it would remove that barrier. That said. We have a local GUE shop. If you know of the shop, ask Tom could fill you in. Some of the other clubs / instr / mitary / law enforcement could also say I have been pushing them to look at Gue. For what ever reasons some feel they have burned their bridges. The truth is they haven’t burned any thing it has been their well meaning (?) followers (usually uncarded) I have been putting out the occasion fires and rebuilding those bridges. I think GUE has a place for the new tech divers and older. That have fallen into to the rut of sliding standards. What I don’t like is those that carry the DIR Bat with Jack Boots. But what I have found is the higher trained GUE are the total opposite. Most would like to put distance between them and GI like behavior. But as an outsider it’s easy to get caught up in the BS. All agencies have their nuts. But if you examine them carefully you’ll find the little wizard behind the curtain. These types do more harm to the GUE image than help. Once you sort through the noise a true GUE sticks out like a sore thumb. Just by their calm demeanor and calm tone. And And their complete explanation of their position. Only a fool would think diving in general doesn't need to be cleaned up. GUE certainly has every one’s attention. The only way to close this. Good on you mate. US translation: Success looks good on you, friend. I’m for safer diving. Toto one curtain at a time Maybe he's a closet wannabe. haha > They tell you to take a class and then wonder why a dumbass like you, who > hates everything GUE does, cares how GUE does it or why you have deco plan [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> >>T |
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